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Author Topic: Beware of the New Surge of 'Information War'
Ish Gebor
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"Richard Spencer claims ancient African Egyptians were white".


https://youtu.be/NHaFYdnk5Ho


They also have a special dedicated section on their alt-right website with this stuff, which I'm not going to link. You can look it up yourself.


Spoiler alert, the atl-right connections show us a lot.


Richard Spencer is a posterchild.


 -
AR Staff, American Renaissance, April 8, 2013


Founded by Jared Taylor in 1990, the New Century Foundation is a self-styled think tank that promotes pseudo-scientific studies and research that purport to show the inferiority of blacks to whites. It is best known for its American Renaissance magazine and website.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/american-renaissance


In full flair:

Debate: Can the US Political System Solve the Race Problem?

https://youtu.be/ORePX14PqS0

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Doug M
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Bottom line, white supremacy benefits from good marketing and PR to propagate and maintain its lies and disinformation. And bottom line it is like a business. It makes sense for white Europeans to believe in such things because it is to their benefit. But folks have to also understand that in this day and age of mass media and instant communication, this is also being used to keep non white Europeans on the bandwagon. If you asked a large number of folks around the world if they would be willing to give up the technology and conveniences they have today to get rid of white supremacy a large number would say no. A large portion of the planet is perfectly fine and happy with going along with the paradigm of white domination = progress, even though in most cases white progress = non white destruction. What has created this mentality is all the last 500 years of educational, scientific, social and political domination and indoctrination based on misinformation, disinformation, lies and propaganda in support of white global domination. That is what all of these think tanks were designed for: promoting global long term global white domination.

But again, white nationalism is implicitly designed as a "grassroots" campaign to "humanize" European global domination and make it seem benign and beneficial. For example, Alex Jones keeps talking about the globalists this and globalists that, as if American nationalism is something separate from the global system of white domination that created America in the first place. The network of European colonies around the world are partly the foundation of and backbone of global European domination. But that is what the nationalists are there for, to spin it and make it seem as if their concept of "nationhood" is separate from the global system of European domination, aka globalism.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Bottom line, white supremacy benefits from good marketing and PR to propagate and maintain its lies and disinformation. And bottom line it is like a business. It makes sense for white Europeans to believe in such things because it is to their benefit. But folks have to also understand that in this day and age of mass media and instant communication, this is also being used to keep non white Europeans on the bandwagon. If you asked a large number of folks around the world if they would be willing to give up the technology and conveniences they have today to get rid of white supremacy a large number would say no. A large portion of the planet is perfectly fine and happy with going along with the paradigm of white domination = progress, even though in most cases white progress = non white destruction. What has created this mentality is all the last 500 years of educational, scientific, social and political domination and indoctrination based on misinformation, disinformation, lies and propaganda in support of white global domination.

"Make fascism normal again."

UNBOXED: The World Beyond the West & the Problem of Eurocentrism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTwDkeydhY


And they complain about China refusing western-media in their parameters.

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sudaniya
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Anyone who truly believes that Europeans-Westerners are ever going to be objective and sincere on this issue is naive, ignorant and delusional.

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement and that Northern Egypt was bedevilled by a large migration of Asiatics at precisely the time period in which these mummies are from... I don't believe that they are representative of neolithic, predynastic and early dynastic Egyptians.

These European 'scientists' are anything but objective. I guarantee that if the autosomal profiles of three [3] mummies from the 25th dynasty were used to represent ancient Egypt from start to finish... there would not be a let up on the emphasis on the salient fact that the mummies were from the 25th dynasty.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Anyone who truly believes that Europeans-Westerners are ever going to be objective and sincere on this issue is naive, ignorant and delusional.

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement and that Northern Egypt was bedevilled by a large migration of Asiatics at precisely the time period in which these mummies are from... I don't believe that they are representative of neolithic, predynastic and early dynastic Egyptians.

These European 'scientists' are anything but objective. I guarantee that if the autosomal profiles of three [3] mummies from the 25th dynasty were used to represent ancient Egypt from start to finish… there woud not be a let up on the emphasis on the salient fact that the mummies were from the 25th dynasty.

Do you have any idea what propaganda and mass-psychology can lead to?

Are all whites going to believe this, of course not. But that is not the intended here.

See, the current POTUS got there by propaganda and mass-psychology. People slept on it, and here you have it.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Bottom line, white supremacy benefits from good marketing and PR to propagate and maintain its lies and disinformation. And bottom line it is like a business. It makes sense for white Europeans to believe in such things because it is to their benefit. But folks have to also understand that in this day and age of mass media and instant communication, this is also being used to keep non white Europeans on the bandwagon. If you asked a large number of folks around the world if they would be willing to give up the technology and conveniences they have today to get rid of white supremacy a large number would say no. A large portion of the planet is perfectly fine and happy with going along with the paradigm of white domination = progress, even though in most cases white progress = non white destruction. What has created this mentality is all the last 500 years of educational, scientific, social and political domination and indoctrination based on misinformation, disinformation, lies and propaganda in support of white global domination.

"Make fascism normal again."

UNBOXED: The World Beyond the West & the Problem of Eurocentrism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePTwDkeydhY


And they complain about China refusing western-media in their parameters.

Nice Video. And while watching that I found this:

Dr Peter Frankopan - The Silk Roads: Questioning the Eurocentric view of history
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ54ojX5zlM

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Hyksos, dynasty of Palestinian origin that ruled northern Egypt as the 15th dynasty (c. 1630–1523 bce; see ancient Egypt: The Second Intermediate period).

[…]

The sequence of events that brought the Hyksos kings to power in Lower Egypt is not entirely clear. The 13th and 14th dynasties, which had existed concurrently in Lower Egypt, weakened and disappeared about the middle of the 17th century. Some scholars have suggested that a famine in the Delta region contributed to their decline and opened the way for the emergence of the Hyksos dynasty. From Avaris the Hyksos 15th dynasty ruled most of Lower Egypt and the Nile valley as far south as Cusae (near present-day Asyūṭ). The contemporaneous 16th-dynasty rulers—minor Hyksos kings who ruled in Upper Egypt simultaneously with those of the 15th dynasty—were probably vassals of the latter group.



https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hyksos-Egyptian-dynasty
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the lioness,
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The right wing in the U.S. will spin history in predictable fashion.
However they are not spinning it that much as compared to mainstream media . I posted earlier the mainstream source The Daily Mail similarly the Washington Post
ran the headline:

Egyptian mummy DNA shows Mediterranean, Turkish and European ancestry

http://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaki

_____________________


The source of the information is the article, which is posted in the opening post of the thread, excerpts compiled below

" Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009694


quote:


Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
Verena J. Schuenemann et al


The archaeological site Abusir el-Meleq was inhabited from at least 3250BCE until about 700CE and was of great religious significance because of its active cult to Osiris, the god of the dead, which made it an attractive burial site for centuries2. Written sources indicate that by the third century BCE Abusir el-Meleq was at the centre of a wider region that comprised the northern part of the Herakleopolites province, and had close ties with the Fayum and the Memphite provinces, involving the transport of wheat, cattle-breeding, bee-keeping and quarrying42.

Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

Analysis of mitochondrial genomes

The 90 mitochondrial genomes fulfilling our criteria [>10-fold coverage and <3% contamination} were grouped into three temporal categories based on their radiocarbon dates [Supplementary Data 1}, corresponding to Pre-Ptolemaic Periods [n=44}, the Ptolemaic Period [n=27} and the Roman Period [n=19} [Supplementary Data 1}

The affinity to the Middle East finds further support by the Y-chromosome haplogroups of the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained, two of which could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa [Supplementary Table 3}.

Finally, we used two methods to estimate the fractions of sub-Saharan African ancestry in ancient and modern Egyptians. Both qpAdm35 and the f4-ratio test39 reveal that modern Egyptians inherit 8% more ancestry from African ancestors than the three ancient Egyptians do, which is also consistent with the ADMIXTURE results discussed above. Absolute estimates of African ancestry using these two methods in the three ancient individuals range from 6 to 15%, and in the modern samples from 14 to 21% depending on method and choice of reference populations [see Supplementary Note 1, Supplementary Fig. 6, Supplementary Tables 5–8}. We then used ALDER40 to estimate the time of a putative pulse-like admixture event, which was estimated to have occurred 24 generations ago [700 years ago}, consistent with previous results from Henn and colleagues16. While this result by itself does not exclude the possibility of much older and continuous gene flow from African sources, the substantially lower African component in our ∼2,000-year-old ancient samples suggests that African gene flow in modern Egyptians occurred indeed predominantly within the last 2,000 years.

Finally, we analysed several functionally relevant SNPs in sample JK2911, which had low contamination and relatively high coverage. This individual had a derived allele at the SLC24A5 locus, which contributes to lighter skin pigmentation and was shown to be at high frequency in Neolithic Anatolia41, consistent with the ancestral affinity shown above. Other relevant SNPs carry the ancestral allele, including HERC2 and LCT, which suggest dark-coloured eyes and lactose intolerance [Supplementary Table 9}.

By comparing ancient individuals from Abusir el-Meleq with modern Egyptian reference populations, we found an influx of sub-Saharan African ancestry after the Roman Period, which corroborates the findings by Henn and colleagues16.

The ancient DNA data revealed a high level of affinity between the ancient inhabitants of Abusir el-Meleq and modern populations from the Near East and the Levant. This finding is pertinent in the light of the hypotheses advanced by Pagani and colleagues, who estimated that the average proportion of non-African ancestry in Egyptians was 80% and dated the midpoint of this admixture event to around 750 years ago17. Our data seem to indicate close admixture and affinity at a much earlier date, which is unsurprising given the long and complex connections between Egypt and the Middle East.

Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level.


However, our results revise previous scepticism towards the DNA preservation in ancient Egyptian mummies due to climate conditions or mummification procedures8. The methodology presented here opens up promising avenues for future genetic research and can greatly contribute towards a more accurate and refined understanding of Egypt’s population history.


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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
Where is the new news here?

Looks like the same ole repackaged and distributed pseudoscience to me.

It indeed is.

So what we have thus far:


A racist man named Felix von Luschan who used terror and collected human remains from indigenous people. This is called the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. And we have a institution with an extremely horrendous Nazi history. An institute which managed to maskout given data, either by modern day populations (called ghost populations) or supposed Neanderthal-DNA, which was not found in Africans but anybody else, which later was debunked by other scientists in the field.

So, what are we dealing with here?


quote:
Max Planck Society admits to its predecessor's Nazi links

Alison Abbott

Hubert Markl, president of the Max Planck Society (MPS), has accepted that the management and staff of its predecessor society were involved in Nazi war atrocities, and has apologized to their victims.His statement was in response to the findings of a group of science historians he commissioned in 1999 to investigate the role played by basic researchers of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society during the Second World War.

https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v411/n6839/full/411726b0.html

Not surprising, most all of these European and US institutions have similar histories.
Is there a source, books etc where this has been summarized?
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The right wing in the U.S. will spin history in predictable fashion.

The source of the information is the article, which is posted in the opening post of the thread, excerpt below


Finally, we used two methods to estimate the fractions of sub-Saharan African ancestry in ancient and modern Egyptians. Both qpAdm35 and the f4-ratio test39 reveal that modern Egyptians inherit 8% more ancestry from African ancestors than the three ancient Egyptians do, which is also consistent with the ADMIXTURE results discussed above.

So, what was the purpose to test on SSA-DNA, done by Verena J. Schuenemann et al?

And why these two methods, qpAdm 35 and the f4-ratio test 39?


Source 35 appears to be, which is odd considering that ancient Egyptians spoke Afrasan:

"Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe"

https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html

Source 39 appears to be:

"Ancient Admixture in Human History."

http://www.genetics.org/content/192/3/1065


So in conclusion, no accurate source for African populations was used to give a reasonable proximaty. This is on top of some unknown mummies, which came from the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. Felix von Luschan a racist white man. And the claim is that these remains are from Abusir.

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Narmerthoth
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
Where is the new news here?

Looks like the same ole repackaged and distributed pseudoscience to me.

It indeed is.

So what we have thus far:


A racist man named Felix von Luschan who used terror and collected human remains from indigenous people. This is called the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. And we have a institution with an extremely horrendous Nazi history. An institute which managed to maskout given data, either by modern day populations (called ghost populations) or supposed Neanderthal-DNA, which was not found in Africans but anybody else, which later was debunked by other scientists in the field.

So, what are we dealing with here?


quote:
Max Planck Society admits to its predecessor's Nazi links

Alison Abbott

Hubert Markl, president of the Max Planck Society (MPS), has accepted that the management and staff of its predecessor society were involved in Nazi war atrocities, and has apologized to their victims.His statement was in response to the findings of a group of science historians he commissioned in 1999 to investigate the role played by basic researchers of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society during the Second World War.

https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v411/n6839/full/411726b0.html

Not surprising, most all of these European and US institutions have similar histories.
Is there a source, books etc where this has been summarized?
Not to my knowledge is there a condensed version of all the Europeans and Americans who have been shown conclusively to be racist Nazis.
Many books on Nazi history and KKK history will include quite a few big names and organizations, such as Bayer and it's CEO who found guilty during the Nuremberg trail of kidnapping and holding 1 million people as slaves, while still a Bayer CEO. The CEO received a 5 year prison sentence, released in 3 years and went back to business as usual at Bayer.

Prescott Bush (Grandfather of George) who was a Nazi collaborator and brought the Nazi Eugenics program from Nazi Germany to America where it became Planned Parenthood.
The US Senate found Prescott guilty of treason and collaborating with the enemy, yet his son and grandson still became US Presidents.
Currently there is a trial in North Carolina due to PP sterilizing 3,000 black women. The state of NC has offered them $1,800 each in compensation which was rejected.

and many, many more examples scattered in thousands of books.

I've found enough to know that there is no difference between Nazi Germany and the US, and that the Nazis are an invention of the Zionists who currently are heading this Anti-Africa, Pro-Europe campaign.

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Tyrannohotep
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quote:
Anyway, all this political crap which I thought would end after Trump's election has gotten worse and the point I'm making now is you have these white's-right groups hijacking scientific findings and misrepresenting them to many popular alternative media outlets. As I said, I know folks who are working to correct these fallacies and distortions put out by these white nationalists, but the problem is even if the media outlets do correct themselves they usually only do so in the written part of their sites and don't make their corrections in their actual broadcasts where it counts so the disinformation still remains disseminated.
If your friends are associated with the 4chan, reddit, etc. communities, they'll have a steep uphill battle ahead of them. From what I have seen, 4channers and their ilk are the sort of people who have already made up their minds about Egypt and the alleged natural inferiority of Africans. Reddit seems to be more politically moderate and diverse, but the prevailing sentiment I've seen over there is that black Egypt is "Afrocentric/SJW pseudohistory". Still, I commend your comrades for trying to do something about it.
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Andromeda2025
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Personally, I find the petty back and forth of online forums are a huge waste of time. When you think about it small sites focused on DNA studies they very few active posters who are all polarized into camps and will never change their mind. Time is better spent creating content that pays. Digital books, Youtube channels, blogs and podcasts etc. Don't give all of your knowledge out for free.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Mansamusa:

It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.

Uh, that may seem "obvious" to you and others fooled or brainwashed by typical Democrat left-wing propaganda. The Tea Party was never a racist movement but merely a movement based on exactly what I described-- one based on ending government abuse and over-taxation. Although I was never an actual member I did give my moral support to those who were including a few friends of mine who happen to be non-white business owners. Are you aware even aware that due to Obama's policies more black owned business closed down or went bankrupt than under Bush?? Anwyay, I told my friends that their movement was screwed as soon as Sarah Palin began showing up as the organization's spokesperson the same way the 'alt-right' was screwed when Richard Spencer began holding rallies. That's when the movement branched off into an "alt-light" form. One problem with all these names is that they can easily be misused or mislabeled for something else. As someone who is neither "right" or "left" wing, I don't understand why there can be simply a common movement for individual rights for all.

Anyway, all this political crap which I thought would end after Trump's election has gotten worse and the point I'm making now is you have these white's-right groups hijacking scientific findings and misrepresenting them to many popular alternative media outlets. As I said, I know folks who are working to correct these fallacies and distortions put out by these white nationalists, but the problem is even if the media outlets do correct themselves they usually only do so in the written part of their sites and don't make their corrections in their actual broadcasts where it counts so the disinformation still remains disseminated.

Lioness has provided excellent examples of such disinformation.

So now the Abusir mummies are proof that Egypt was founded by "Central Europeans"??! Who is going to let Alex Jones know this mistake?? And again it's not just him. Even small time Youtubers who are popular and some of whom I watch from time to time have fallen prey to the lies.

By the way, if you guys want to discuss the Nature study on the Abusir mummies I would be glad to discuss it in its original thread here.

What's up DJ?

How, in your view, should these results be presented to the public? And what outcome, as far as educating the public, are you going for? What amount of progress would you consider a success?

Personally, I don't really care at this point how the information is presented. In my view, this is not a subject someone can present to laypeople on a silver platter. If laypeople want to understand it, they have to do their homework and peel away lots of layers of society's brainwashing about race and their own personal biases. And most people aren't willing to do that so people are just going to take 2% of what you say and spin the rest. Case in point, see how they're spinning in the vid below, after everything they heard Keita say (watch from beginning to end):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c__JhIjz9g

^So, even when it's presented 'correctly' by someone like Keita, it still doesn't lead to anything productive. And notice that people on ES are trying to do the same thing as the people in that audience (and what's sad is that some are lying and trying to hide their agenda), so it has nothing to do with a lack of experience. I've interacted with enough people on this subject to know that people tend to misrepresent this information (initially, due to a lack of understanding and as they learn more they start doing it deliberately). The way I see it, this is something truth seekers have to study for themselves and/or with a small group of like-minded people. That is the best it's going to get as far as making the public understand. If you're lucky you might stumble on a self-critical and open-minded 'public' of about 3 people.

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Narmerthoth
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Guppies swimming upstream in the wake of a flood, so focused on the water they cannot see the other hundred perils surrounding them.

In the famous words of Watchmen, The comedian;

"This is one big joke"!

--------------------
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

What's up DJ?

How, in your view, should these results be presented to the public? And what outcome, as far as educating the public, are you going for? What amount of progress would you consider a success?

Personally, I don't really care at this point how the information is presented. In my view, this is not a subject someone can present to laypeople on a silver platter. If laypeople want to understand it, they have to do their homework and peel away lots of layers of society's brainwashing about race and their own personal biases. And most people aren't willing to do that so people are just going to take 2% of what you say and spin the rest. Case in point, see how they're spinning in the vid below, after everything they heard Keita say (watch from beginning to end):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c__JhIjz9g

^So, even when it's presented 'correctly' by someone like Keita, it still doesn't lead to anything productive. And notice that people on ES are trying to do the same thing as the people in that audience (and what's sad is that some are lying and trying to hide their agenda), so it has nothing to do with a lack of experience. I've interacted with enough people on this subject to know that people tend to misrepresent this information (initially, due to a lack of understanding and as they learn more they start doing it deliberately). The way I see it, this is something truth seekers have to study for themselves and/or with a small group of like-minded people. That is the best it's going to get as far as making the public understand. If you're lucky you might stumble on a self-critical and open-minded 'public' of about 3 people.

I think the answer to counter the misinformation is to have "grass-roots" (I hate the term btw) folks in the net disseminating the proper info as well as responsible researchers working for the journalists who broadcast the info. The latter is more difficult than the former. As I have said, I've been told by my sources that the researchers for these news outlets are themselves Euronuts so these news outlets have been compromised.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Mansamusa:

It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.

Uh, that may seem "obvious" to you and others fooled or brainwashed by typical Democrat left-wing propaganda. The Tea Party was never a racist movement but merely a movement based on exactly what I described-- one based on ending government abuse and over-taxation. Although I was never an actual member I did give my moral support to those who were including a few friends of mine who happen to be non-white business owners. Are you aware even aware that due to Obama's policies more black owned business closed down or went bankrupt than under Bush?? Anwyay, I told my friends that their movement was screwed as soon as Sarah Palin began showing up as the organization's spokesperson the same way the 'alt-right' was screwed when Richard Spencer began holding rallies. That's when the movement branched off into an "alt-light" form. One problem with all these names is that they can easily be misused or mislabeled for something else. As someone who is neither "right" or "left" wing, I don't understand why there can be simply a common movement for individual rights for all.

Anyway, all this political crap which I thought would end after Trump's election has gotten worse and the point I'm making now is you have these white's-right groups hijacking scientific findings and misrepresenting them to many popular alternative media outlets. As I said, I know folks who are working to correct these fallacies and distortions put out by these white nationalists, but the problem is even if the media outlets do correct themselves they usually only do so in the written part of their sites and don't make their corrections in their actual broadcasts where it counts so the disinformation still remains disseminated.

Lioness has provided excellent examples of such disinformation.

So now the Abusir mummies are proof that Egypt was founded by "Central Europeans"??! Who is going to let Alex Jones know this mistake?? And again it's not just him. Even small time Youtubers who are popular and some of whom I watch from time to time have fallen prey to the lies.

By the way, if you guys want to discuss the Nature study on the Abusir mummies I would be glad to discuss it in its original thread here.

What's up DJ?

How, in your view, should these results be presented to the public? And what outcome, as far as educating the public, are you going for? What amount of progress would you consider a success?

Personally, I don't really care at this point how the information is presented. In my view, this is not a subject someone can present to laypeople on a silver platter. If laypeople want to understand it, they have to do their homework and peel away lots of layers of society's brainwashing about race and their own personal biases. And most people aren't willing to do that so people are just going to take 2% of what you say and spin the rest. Case in point, see how they're spinning in the vid below, after everything they heard Keita say (watch from beginning to end):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c__JhIjz9g

^So, even when it's presented 'correctly' by someone like Keita, it still doesn't lead to anything productive. And notice that people on ES are trying to do the same thing as the people in that audience (and what's sad is that some are lying and trying to hide their agenda), so it has nothing to do with a lack of experience. I've interacted with enough people on this subject to know that people tend to misrepresent this information (initially, due to a lack of understanding and as they learn more they start doing it deliberately). The way I see it, this is something truth seekers have to study for themselves and/or with a small group of like-minded people. That is the best it's going to get as far as making the public understand. If you're lucky you might stumble on a self-critical and open-minded 'public' of about 3 people.

Forgot to include the other Q&A sections of that lecture.

https://youtu.be/zHeZKNmrBVQ?t=6m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qErhFiCvyKE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c__JhIjz9g

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Tyrannohotep
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

What's up DJ?

How, in your view, should these results be presented to the public? And what outcome, as far as educating the public, are you going for? What amount of progress would you consider a success?

Personally, I don't really care at this point how the information is presented. In my view, this is not a subject someone can present to laypeople on a silver platter. If laypeople want to understand it, they have to do their homework and peel away lots of layers of society's brainwashing about race and their own personal biases. And most people aren't willing to do that so people are just going to take 2% of what you say and spin the rest. Case in point, see how they're spinning in the vid below, after everything they heard Keita say (watch from beginning to end):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c__JhIjz9g

^So, even when it's presented 'correctly' by someone like Keita, it still doesn't lead to anything productive. And notice that people on ES are trying to do the same thing as the people in that audience (and what's sad is that some are lying and trying to hide their agenda), so it has nothing to do with a lack of experience. I've interacted with enough people on this subject to know that people tend to misrepresent this information (initially, due to a lack of understanding and as they learn more they start doing it deliberately). The way I see it, this is something truth seekers have to study for themselves and/or with a small group of like-minded people. That is the best it's going to get as far as making the public understand. If you're lucky you might stumble on a self-critical and open-minded 'public' of about 3 people.

I think the answer to counter the misinformation is to have "grass-roots" (I hate the term btw) folks in the net disseminating the proper info as well as responsible researchers working for the journalists who broadcast the info. The latter is more difficult than the former. As I have said, I've been told by my sources that the researchers for these news outlets are themselves Euronuts so these news outlets have been compromised.
Of course knowledgeable people could post accurate information on blogging platforms or social media sites. But even if you could find enough knowledgeable people to do this and successfully attract a lot of readers, there's no guarantee these readers will take from it the right message. I believe what Swenet was trying to say was that, no matter how you try to present the information, people are going to read whatever they want into it. Most of them have already made up their minds anyway.
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Djehuti
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^ Tyranno, you may be right but I think one problem is that most folks in the net tend to have too short attention spans to read entire articles let alone the actual source papers so they instead fall for inaccurate or erroneous headlines. If folks in the know were to simply come up with better more accurate headlines giving people the heads up then this would be a huge accomplishment. But even then, the damage is already done. As I said, it's easier to disseminate info regardless of accuracy than to correct disseminated bad info. The cat is already out of the bag so to speak.
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Narmerthoth
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I just saw, The Mummy (for free), where Tom Cruise plays a grave robber in the style of Carter, who ends up defeating the European described, most evil entity in history, Seti, and stealing all of his supernatural powers.

As usual, all the Egyptians shown were the European pseudoscience defined, Eurasian types.
The ending definitely sets the movie up to be a series with part II with Tom Cruise as Set.

Don't be at all surprised if in part II, Ben Stiller is introduced in the ploy as Osiris and Amy Schumer, as Isis.

It's obvious to all that Europeans have less than zero respect for Africa and Africans, and why should they when Africans consistently have no plan, no organization and perpetually caught in the self defeating cycle of reaction and wishful thinking.

If there are actually any Africans involved in the field of archeology/anthropology, then their professors who TRAINED them should be hauled out of their classrooms to the public square, lashed onto a stake and given 30 flogs of the whip for training them, rather than teaching them how to think.

 -

Here's a group of Europeans who aren't very intelligent, but intelligent enough to consolidate to pool their limited mental capacity to implement their agenda.
So, where are the photos of the African groups/associations working to counter them?
No where to be found because they are probably assistants and associate researchers to these dudes. That's the way they were trained by their African professors whose only real goal is to gain acknowledgement and acceptance by this same group of Europeans.

--------------------
Selenium gives real life and true reality

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Tyranno, you may be right but I think one problem is that most folks in the net tend to have too short attention spans to read entire articles let alone the actual source papers so they instead fall for inaccurate or erroneous headlines. If folks in the know were to simply come up with better more accurate headlines giving people the heads up then this would be a huge accomplishment. But even then, the damage is already done. As I said, it's easier to disseminate info regardless of accuracy than to correct disseminated bad info. The cat is already out of the bag so to speak.

quote:

Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

--Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
Verena J. Schuenemann et al



^ No, the authors of the articles said this in the abstract. This is not a case of misinterpretation by the media.
They made big assumptions about Egyptian history in general with insufficient evidence.

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
[ Of course knowledgeable people could post accurate information on blogging platforms or social media sites. But even if you could find enough knowledgeable people to do this and successfully attract a lot of readers, there's no guarantee these readers will take from it the right message. I believe what Swenet was trying to say was that, no matter how you try to present the information, people are going to read whatever they want into it. Most of them have already made up their minds anyway.

This was the political intend, for publishing this paper. It now has a live on its own.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Tyranno, you may be right but I think one problem is that most folks in the net tend to have too short attention spans to read entire articles let alone the actual source papers so they instead fall for inaccurate or erroneous headlines. If folks in the know were to simply come up with better more accurate headlines giving people the heads up then this would be a huge accomplishment. But even then, the damage is already done. As I said, it's easier to disseminate info regardless of accuracy than to correct disseminated bad info. The cat is already out of the bag so to speak.

So true.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Tyranno, you may be right but I think one problem is that most folks in the net tend to have too short attention spans to read entire articles let alone the actual source papers so they instead fall for inaccurate or erroneous headlines. If folks in the know were to simply come up with better more accurate headlines giving people the heads up then this would be a huge accomplishment. But even then, the damage is already done. As I said, it's easier to disseminate info regardless of accuracy than to correct disseminated bad info. The cat is already out of the bag so to speak.

quote:

Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

--Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
Verena J. Schuenemann et al



^ No, the authors of the articles said this in the abstract. This is not a case of misinterpretation by the media.
They made big assumptions about Egyptian history in general with insufficient evidence.

Lioness, I am well aware of what the authors wrote. My problem is how the findings are presented. Nowhere does it say Pharaonic civilization or the Pharoahs themselves were Europeans as what the distorters are saying.

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Tyranno, you may be right but I think one problem is that most folks in the net tend to have too short attention spans to read entire articles let alone the actual source papers so they instead fall for inaccurate or erroneous headlines. If folks in the know were to simply come up with better more accurate headlines giving people the heads up then this would be a huge accomplishment. But even then, the damage is already done. As I said, it's easier to disseminate info regardless of accuracy than to correct disseminated bad info. The cat is already out of the bag so to speak.

quote:

Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

--Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
Verena J. Schuenemann et al



^ No, the authors of the articles said this in the abstract. This is not a case of misinterpretation by the media.
They made big assumptions about Egyptian history in general with insufficient evidence.

Lioness, I am well aware of what the authors wrote. My problem is how the findings are presented. Nowhere does it say Pharaonic civilization or the Pharoahs themselves were Europeans as what the distorters are saying.
Yes you are right, the authors put more emphasis on " Near Easterners" but they also said:


"When comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested [Fig. 5b}, likely due to the additional African component in the modern population observed above."

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Tyranno, you may be right but I think one problem is that most folks in the net tend to have too short attention spans to read entire articles let alone the actual source papers so they instead fall for inaccurate or erroneous headlines. If folks in the know were to simply come up with better more accurate headlines giving people the heads up then this would be a huge accomplishment. But even then, the damage is already done. As I said, it's easier to disseminate info regardless of accuracy than to correct disseminated bad info. The cat is already out of the bag so to speak.

quote:

Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times. This analysis establishes ancient Egyptian mummies as a genetic source to study ancient human history and offers the perspective of deciphering Egypt’s past at a genome-wide level.

--Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
Verena J. Schuenemann et al



^ No, the authors of the articles said this in the abstract. This is not a case of misinterpretation by the media.
They made big assumptions about Egyptian history in general with insufficient evidence.

Lioness, I am well aware of what the authors wrote. My problem is how the findings are presented. Nowhere does it say Pharaonic civilization or the Pharoahs themselves were Europeans as what the distorters are saying.
Yes you are right, the authors put more emphasis on " Near Easterners" but they also said:


"When comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested [Fig. 5b}, likely due to the additional African component in the modern population observed above."

 -

Bahariyya E-V22 score = 21,95%

 -


Mixed Ethiopiansa E-V22 score = 25.00%

—Fulvio Cruciani (2007)


Fulani E-V22 score = 27.2%

E-V22 accounts for 27.2% and its highest frequency appears to be among Fulani, but it is also common in Nilo-Saharan speaking groups.

--Hisham Y. Hassan, Peter A. Underhill, Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza, and Muntaser E. Ibrahim

Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History


Saho, Eritrea (N=94) E-V22: score = 88.3% [Eek!]
Turkana, Kenya (N=6) E-V22: score = 33.3%
Gurage, Ethiopia (N=7) E-V22: score = 28.6%
--Trombetta et al.

Ethiohelix has a nice summary, on East Africa:

http://ethiohelix.blogspot.com/2015/06/improved-resolution-of-e-m215-aka-e3b.html


These two characterize Sahara-Sahel ethnic groups
(sub Sahara).

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
The site has mummies of different periods and samples were taken from mummies of different periods.
You are calling it a Hyksos site for political reasons

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
The site has mummies of different periods and samples were taken from mummies of different periods.
You are calling it a Hyksos site for political reasons

These mummies fall within the range of the same late dynasty. The oldest specimen in the Abusir samples goes back to 769 B.C.



 -

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
The site has mummies of different periods and samples were taken from mummies of different periods.
You are calling it a Hyksos site for political reasons

Were those dynasties Egyptian or foreign? It's a fact that Asiatics from the Levant migrated into Northern Egypt en mass around the 12th dynasty and were only subdued (politically) around the 18th dynasty. Asiatic migration into Egypt was a gradual trickle prior to this period going all the way back to the predynastic.

The Asiatics came to dominate Northern Egypt that they felt emboldened enough to fight for independence from the South.

Even if samples were sourced from different -*foreign*- dynasties... the results would be essentially consistent across all the late period foreign dynasties because the large number of Asiatics from the Levant that settled and dominated Northern Egypt were not demographically replaced by other
foreign populations.

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
quote:
Especially from the second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt, whose origins lie in the Middle Bronze Age Levant. 54
--Verena J. Schuenemann et al.


Side note 54:

Mumford, G. D. Egypt and the Levant, The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of the Levant: c. 8000-332 BCE Oxford (2014).

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-oxford-handbook-of-the-archaeology-of-the-levant-9780199212972?cc=nl&lang=en&

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
The site has mummies of different periods and samples were taken from mummies of different periods.
You are calling it a Hyksos site for political reasons

These mummies fall within the range of the same late dynasty. The oldest specimen in the Abusir samples goes back to 769 B.C.



 -

I thought that four [4] of the mtdna samples were from the New Kingdom. In either case these samples were all from periods of foreign domination.

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
quote:
Especially from the second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt, whose origins lie in the Middle Bronze Age Levant. 54
--Verena J. Schuenemann et al.


Side note 54:

Mumford, G. D. Egypt and the Levant, The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of the Levant: c. 8000-332 BCE Oxford (2014).

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-oxford-handbook-of-the-archaeology-of-the-levant-9780199212972?cc=nl&lang=en&

It's a general statement . It doesn't say that Abusir el-Meleq was a Hyksos settlement.

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
These mummies fall within the range of the same late dynasty. The oldest specimen in the Abusir samples goes back to 769 B.C.

The Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt was the first Hyksos dynasty ( 1650 to 1550 BC) a period of about 100 years

The 18th dynasty was founded by Ahmose I who expelled the Hyksos (1550 BC)
Amarna is 18th Dynsaty
including the Amenhoteps, Thutmoses, Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun and others
The Amarna Kings were stricken from the Kings list

The 19th and 20th included the Ramesses and Setis and others

The date 769 BC, around the mummies analyzed is far later than the Hyksos is around the Libyan period and prior to the Nubian but the Libyans were ruling up north in the Delta not where Abusir el-Meleq is which was an important religious and trading centre.

"The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300 year timespan we studied, suggesting that the population remained genetically relatively unaffected by foreign conquest and rule," says Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena.

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
quote:
Especially from the second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt, whose origins lie in the Middle Bronze Age Levant. 54
--Verena J. Schuenemann et al.


Side note 54:

Mumford, G. D. Egypt and the Levant, The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of the Levant: c. 8000-332 BCE Oxford (2014).

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-oxford-handbook-of-the-archaeology-of-the-levant-9780199212972?cc=nl&lang=en&

It's a general statement . It doesn't say that Abusir el-Meleq was a Hyksos settlement.

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
These mummies fall within the range of the same late dynasty. The oldest specimen in the Abusir samples goes back to 769 B.C.

The Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt was the first Hyksos dynasty ( 1650 to 1550 BC) a period of about 100 years

Amarna is 18th Dynsaty
including the Amenhoteps, Thutmoses, Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun and others
The Amarna Kings were stricken from the Kings list

The 19th and 20th included the Ramesses and Setis and others

The date 769 BC, around the mummies analyzed is far later than the Hyksos is around the Libyan period and prior to the Nubian but the Libyans were ruling up north in the Delta not where Abusir el-Meleq is which was an important religious and trading centre.

"The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300 year timespan we studied, suggesting that the population remained genetically relatively unaffected by foreign conquest and rule," says Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena.

How many times must you be told that Asiatics from the Levant infiltrated into Northern Egypt on a *large-scale* around 1800 bc?

Levantine populations imposed themselves demographically and followed that with political domination around 700 bc. Why would there be any subsequent major shifts?

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
How many times must you be told that Asiatics from the Levant infiltrated into Northern Egypt on a *large-scale* around 1800 bc?

Levantine populations imposed themselves demographically and followed that with political domination around 700 bc. Why would there be any subsequent major shifts?

what cataract is the lowest point geographically of what you are calling "Northern Egypt" ?
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sudaniya
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lioness

Question:

What was the point of mentioning the fact that Armana kings were "stricken" from the list? Are you trying to suggest something beyond the religious motivations behind their names being removed?

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
lioness

Question:

What was the point of mentioning the fact that Armana kings were "stricken" from the list? Are you trying to suggest something beyond the religious motivations behind their names being removed?

It's an irrelevant point but once in a while I like to mention it because some people are unaware of it. It comes out of the backlash against Akenhaten's religious policies and kings associated with him. Looking at this period today we are typically not biased as to who was on or off the king's list for political reasons.

what cataract is the lowest point geographically of what you are calling "Northern Egypt" ?

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sudaniya
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Northern Egypt is any area North of Asyut; I tend to group Qena, Luxor, Edfu, Kom Ombo, Esna and Aswan into their own cluster -- the core South.

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
How many times must you be told that Asiatics from the Levant infiltrated into Northern Egypt on a *large-scale* around 1800 bc?

Levantine populations imposed themselves demographically and followed that with political domination around 700 bc. Why would there be any subsequent major shifts?

quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Northern Egypt is any area North of Asyut; I tend to group Qena, Luxor, Edfu, Kom Ombo, Esna and Aswan into their own cluster -- the core South.

 -
Asyut

So around 1800 B.C., near the end of the 12th dynasty, near the beginning of the 13th in the Northern part of Egypt, the people of Egypt since then have become significantly admixed with Asiatics from the Levant.

What haplgroups do you think represent the infiltration of these Asiatics?

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sudaniya
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
How many times must you be told that Asiatics from the Levant infiltrated into Northern Egypt on a *large-scale* around 1800 bc?

Levantine populations imposed themselves demographically and followed that with political domination around 700 bc. Why would there be any subsequent major shifts?

quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Northern Egypt is any area North of Asyut; I tend to group Qena, Luxor, Edfu, Kom Ombo, Esna and Aswan into their own cluster -- the core South.

 -
Asyut

So around 1800 B.C., near the end of the 12th dynasty, near the beginning of the 13th in the Northern part of Egypt, the people of Egypt since then have become significantly admixed with Asiatics from the Levant.

What haplgroups do you think represent the infiltration of these Asiatics?

From the study:


quote:
"The affinity to the Middle East finds further support by the Y-chromosome haplogroups of the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained, two of which could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa"
Only one [1] of the three [3] had a Y-DNA haplogroup indigenous to Africa.

The mtdna haplogroups clearly demonstrating Asiatics would include J-T, H and K-U.

PS: I think extensive admixture was mostly confined to Northern Egypt. Oshun provided some very informative posts on this matter and seems to be of the reasonable opinion that Northern Egypt (the Delta in particular) must have interracted with the Levant as far back as the predynastic.

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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the lioness,
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I cannot see any rational reason why Russia should not remain communist, if she wants to, within a world federation. ... If the Baruch proposals are finally rejected by Russia, then, in my judgment, world peace is impossible : it can only ... If for the Russians the veto-power is sacrosanct, that is only another way of saying that for them the claim to unrestricted national sovereignty is ... If that claim is maintained, the proposal to outlaw the atomic bomb becomes so much pious nonsense.
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The 18th dynasty was founded by Ahmose I who expelled the Hyksos (1550 BC)
Amarna is 18th Dynsaty
including the Amenhoteps, Thutmoses, Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun and others
The Amarna Kings were stricken from the Kings list

So why didn't they invetigate Amenhoteps, Thutmoses, Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun and had others tested?



quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:

Based on the fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement

Abusir was not a Hyksos settlement
Abusir was a Hyksos site. Even posters on Forumbiodiversity admit to this fact.
quote:
Especially from the second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt, whose origins lie in the Middle Bronze Age Levant. 54
--Verena J. Schuenemann et al.


Side note 54:

Mumford, G. D. Egypt and the Levant, The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of the Levant: c. 8000-332 BCE Oxford (2014).

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-oxford-handbook-of-the-archaeology-of-the-levant-9780199212972?cc=nl&lang=en&

It's a general statement . It doesn't say that Abusir el-Meleq was a Hyksos settlement.

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
These mummies fall within the range of the same late dynasty. The oldest specimen in the Abusir samples goes back to 769 B.C.

The Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt was the first Hyksos dynasty ( 1650 to 1550 BC) a period of about 100 years

The 18th dynasty was founded by Ahmose I who expelled the Hyksos (1550 BC)
Amarna is 18th Dynsaty
including the Amenhoteps, Thutmoses, Hatshepsut, Akhenaten, Tutankhamun and others
The Amarna Kings were stricken from the Kings list

The 19th and 20th included the Ramesses and Setis and others

The date 769 BC, around the mummies analyzed is far later than the Hyksos is around the Libyan period and prior to the Nubian but the Libyans were ruling up north in the Delta not where Abusir el-Meleq is which was an important religious and trading centre.


LOL What they say is:

  • second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt,


There own sources shows the reference to side note 54:

Mumford, G. D. Egypt and the Levant, The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of the Levant: c. 8000-332 BCE Oxford (2014).


They actually claimed it's a Fayum settlement. On what they've based this, is unknown:

  • "To substantiate those speculations, molecular analyses were carried out on sixteen mummified heads recovered from the necropolis of Abusir el Meleq (Fayum) dating from the 3rd Intermediate Period (1064- 656 BC) to the Roman Period (30 BC- 300 AD)."




quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
"The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300 year timespan we studied, suggesting that the population remained genetically relatively unaffected by foreign conquest and rule," says Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena.

They themselves stated later that:

  • Unfortunately, mummies from the Old till early New Kingdom are not present at the site or and not included in our data set, which focusses on the three consecutive periods.
  • This is important as it is the first time that such estimates can be contrasted with reported historic Egyptian census numbers from the neighbouring Fayum in the early Ptolemaic Period, which had a reported total population size of 85,000–95,000 inhabitants33.
  • Written sources indicate that by the third century BCE Abusir el-Meleq was at the centre of a wider region that comprised the northern part of the Herakleopolites province, and had close ties with the Fayum and the Memphite provinces, involving the transport of wheat, cattle-breeding, bee-keeping and quarrying42.
  • In the early Roman Period, the site appears to have been the main centre in its own district42. Abusir el-Meleq’s proximity to, and close ties with, the Fayum are significant in the context of this study as the Fayum in particular saw a substantial growth in its population during the first hundred years of Ptolemaic rule, presumably as a result of Greek immigration33,43. Later, in the Roman Period, many veterans of the Roman army—who, initially at least, were not Egyptian but people from disparate cultural backgrounds—settled in the Fayum area after the completion of their service, and formed social relations and intermarried with local populations44.
  • It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society55.
  • Especially since we are unable to determine a real value of population size during this time period, we relied on historic records for the Fayum oasis and estimated a conservative population size from this (Supplementary Table 4). To even further ensure that these chosen values are not changing our results drastically, we evaluated ranges around these assumptions to test whether our results changed significantly

AND
  • As mentioned in response to Q4, the individual information is scarce. We have included all available information and anthropological data (see lines: 176-192) in the revised manuscript and supplementary information now.



[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

This paper is a JOKE, with constant contradictions!!!

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quote:
And yet, at some point in the past 1,500 years, there has been a major addition of sub-Saharan genetic material — largely West-African Yoruba — into Egypt's population.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-05-31/who-were-the-ancient-egyptians/8572076


And this is based on what, a Brenna Henn reference?

So where are these Yoruba remains?


Read into these papers:


"Support from the relationship of genetic and geographic distance in human populations for a serial founder effect originating in Africa"

—Sohini Ramachandran * , †, Omkar Deshpande ‡, Charles C. Roseman §, Noah A. Rosenberg ¶, Marcus W. Feldman *, and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/44/15942.abstract?ijkey=4f78df824da13d5822cbcda6fb043b23363b76e9&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

"Explaining worldwide patterns of human genetic variation using a coalescent-based serial founder model of migration outward from Africa"

—Michael DeGiorgioa, Mattias Jakobssonb and Noah A. Rosenberg

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16057.abstract?ijkey=5035e7ed9a22183b0c20b38dea8ac4b7853fafc1&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha


"A serial founder effect model for human settlement out of Africa"

—Omkar Deshpande, Serafim Batzoglou, Marcus W Feldman, L Luca Cavalli-Sforza


Published 22 January 2009.DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2008.0750

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1655/291?ijkey=96a20afc499dd024732a750d36cd0260baeb606a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
lioness

Question:

What was the point of mentioning the fact that Armana kings were "stricken" from the list? Are you trying to suggest something beyond the religious motivations behind their names being removed?

It's an irrelevant point but once in a while I like to mention it because some people are unaware of it. It comes out of the backlash against Akenhaten's religious policies and kings associated with him. Looking at this period today we are typically not biased as to who was on or off the king's list for political reasons.

what cataract is the lowest point geographically of what you are calling "Northern Egypt" ?

That is certainly an interesting question, considering the fact that the first cataracts arose from the far South, in what is considered North Sudan.

Of course there is not one beep about that in this so-called study.

 -


 -


" Two things define the Nile for almost 2000 km from Khartoum to Aswan: the cataracts and the great bend. The cataracts are sections where the river tumbles over rocks and have long kept boats from going up and down the river from Equatorial Africa to Egypt. There are six classical cataracts, but there are really many more. The cataracts are also significant because these define river segments where granites and other hard rocks come down to the edge of the Nile. The floodplain is narrow to nonexistent here, and opportunities for agricultural development is correspondingly limited. These two reasons - navigation obstacles and restricted floodplain - are the most important reasons why this part of the Nile is thinly populated and why the historic border between Egypt in the north and Nubia or Sudan in the south is the First Cataract at Aswan."

https://www.utdallas.edu/geosciences/nile/cataracts.html

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@ lioness, the "paper" doesn't speak about "Asyut". However, Asyut is middle Egypt, but leans more towards the North.

http://www.worldatlas.com/af/eg/ast/where-is-asyut.html


quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
How many times must you be told that Asiatics from the Levant infiltrated into Northern Egypt on a *large-scale* around 1800 bc?

Levantine populations imposed themselves demographically and followed that with political domination around 700 bc. Why would there be any subsequent major shifts?

quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Northern Egypt is any area North of Asyut; I tend to group Qena, Luxor, Edfu, Kom Ombo, Esna and Aswan into their own cluster -- the core South.

 -
Asyut

So around 1800 B.C., near the end of the 12th dynasty, near the beginning of the 13th in the Northern part of Egypt, the people of Egypt since then have become significantly admixed with Asiatics from the Levant.

What haplgroups do you think represent the infiltration of these Asiatics?

From the study:


quote:
"The affinity to the Middle East finds further support by the Y-chromosome haplogroups of the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained, two of which could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa"
Only one [1] of the three [3] had a Y-DNA haplogroup indigenous to Africa.

The mtdna haplogroups clearly demonstrating Asiatics would include J-T, H and K-U.

PS: I think extensive admixture was mostly confined to Northern Egypt. Oshun provided some very informative posts on this matter and seems to be of the reasonable opinion that Northern Egypt (the Delta in particular) must have interracted with the Levant as far back as the predynastic.

U6a2 is incorrect, that one is found solely in the Sahara-Sahel region and compress with populations who carry E-V22. The bigotry in the paper is amazing. [Embarrassed]


quote:
"U6a2 comprises mainly of Ethiopian sequences with some outsiders"

"In the present study, the U6a2 branch shows an important radiation centered in Ethiopia (Table 2) at around 20 kya (see Additional file 2)."

—B Secher - ‎2014 et al.


quote:
The group L3c of Watson et al. (1997) is renamed here as U6 (Richards et al. 1998) since it proves to constitute a part of haplogroup U (Richards et al. 1998) since it proves to constitute a part of haplogroup U.
—Rando JC1, Pinto F, González AM, Hernández M, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM, Bandelt HJ.

Ann. Hum. Genet. (1998), 62, 531–550

Mitochondrial DNA analysis of Northwest African populations reveals genetic exchanges with European, Near-Eastern, and sub-Saharan populations

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PS^:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I cannot see any rational reason why Russia should not remain communist, if she wants to, within a world federation. ... If the Baruch proposals are finally rejected by Russia, then, in my judgment, world peace is impossible : it can only ... If for the Russians the veto-power is sacrosanct, that is only another way of saying that for them the claim to unrestricted national sovereignty is ... If that claim is maintained, the proposal to outlaw the atomic bomb becomes so much pious nonsense.

Cool, anyway.


"We find that all three ancient Egyptian groups cluster together (Fig. 3b), supporting genetic continuity across our 1,300-year transect. Both analyses reveal higher affinities with modern populations from the Near East and the Levant compared to modern Egyptians (Fig. 3b,c)."


Which brings us back to:

"second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt,"

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Andromeda2025
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This field of DNA is full of ethnocentric tribalism, this is ugly just freakin ugly.. and some want to point fingers at Afrocentrics... LAWD.. The title says it all

In the book The Real Eve, Stephen Oppenheimer refers to haplogroup N as "Nasreen" as haplogroup N may have arisen near the Persian Gulf. In his popular book The Seven Daughters of Eve, Bryan Sykes named the originator of this mtDNA haplogroup "Naomi". MTDNA arising in the Persian gulf then turning back to Africa makes this genetic line European how? Oh yes, it is not Subsarahan... lol..


If you go back and read the old Afrocentricist like John Henrik Clarke et al. You will never find them claiming the Delta as Black African. Neither did Massey for that matter. With a careful reading you will find they claim Egypt/ Kemet was an inner African creation and culture. In fact the latest genetics studies prove this point sufficiently for me. What is the material culture from these Near Easterners? What is their culture and language?
The North African's that Menes conquered where like hillbillies, I will call them Swampbillies.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda2025:

If you go back and read the old Afrocentricist like John Henrik Clarke et al. You will never find them claiming the Delta as Black African. Neither did Massey for that matter. With a careful reading you will find they claim Egypt/ Kemet was an inner African creation and culture. In fact the latest genetics studies prove this point sufficiently for me. What is the material culture from these Near Easterners? What is their culture and language?
The North African's that Menes conquered where like hillbillies, I will call them Swampbillies.

 -

Here is the location of the mummies that were analyzed, Abusir el-Meleq, near Fayum


quote:


Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level. It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society55. Under Ptolemaic and Roman rule, ethnic descent was crucial to belonging to an elite group and afforded a privileged position in society55. Especially in the Roman Period there may have been significant legal and social incentives to marry within one’s ethnic group, as individuals with Roman citizenship had to marry other Roman citizens to pass on their citizenship. Such policies are likely to have affected the intermarriage of Romans and non-Romans to a degree55. Additional genetic studies on ancient human remains from Egypt are needed with extensive geographical, social and chronological spread in order to expand our current picture in variety, accuracy and detail.



quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
These mummies fall within the range of the same late dynasty. The oldest specimen in the Abusir samples goes back to 769 B.C.



Nearly right if you look at the 3 mummies for genome analysis

Supplementary Table 1

JK2888 BC 97-2 Hap U6a2

JK2134 BC 776-569 Hap J1d

JK 2911 BC 769-560 Hap M1a2a

.


.

However 40 mummies are analyzed, a couple quite a bit older
quote:


In order to analyse the nuclear DNA we selected 40 samples with high mtDNA coverage and low mtDNA contamination.

including

JK2916 BC 1111-998 Hap R0

JK2885 BC 1304-1136 Hap R2'JT

https://images.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170530/ncomms15694/extref/ncomms15694-s1.xlsx

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Andromeda2025
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda2025:

If you go back and read the old Afrocentricist like John Henrik Clarke et al. You will never find them claiming the Delta as Black African. Neither did Massey for that matter. With a careful reading you will find they claim Egypt/ Kemet was an inner African creation and culture. In fact the latest genetics studies prove this point sufficiently for me. What is the material culture from these Near Easterners? What is their culture and language?
The North African's that Menes conquered where like hillbillies, I will call them Swampbillies.

 -

Here is the location of the mummies that were analyzed, Abusir el-Meleq, near Fayum


quote:


Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level. It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society55. Under Ptolemaic and Roman rule, ethnic descent was crucial to belonging to an elite group and afforded a privileged position in society55. Especially in the Roman Period there may have been significant legal and social incentives to marry within one’s ethnic group, as individuals with Roman citizenship had to marry other Roman citizens to pass on their citizenship. Such policies are likely to have affected the intermarriage of Romans and non-Romans to a degree55. Additional genetic studies on ancient human remains from Egypt are needed with extensive geographical, social and chronological spread in order to expand our current picture in variety, accuracy and detail.



quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
These mummies fall within the range of the same late dynasty. The oldest specimen in the Abusir samples goes back to 769 B.C.



Supplementary Table 1 lists a few mummies 806 - 784 BC but they are not much older

Do the the Abusir Mummies have the core Coptic element? Or are they more related to later European groups?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda2025:

Do the the Abusir Mummies have the core Coptic element? Or are they more related to later European groups?

I have edited my previous post, take a look for additional information

Coptics aren't mentioned in the article

___________________

wikipedia:

Copts
According to Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008), around 45% of Copts in Sudan carry the haplogroup J. The remainder mainly belong to the E1b1b clade (21%). Both paternal lineages are common among other local Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations (Beja, Ethiopians, Sudanese Arabs), as well as many Nubians.[29] E1b1b/E3b reaches its highest frequencies among Berbers and Somalis.[30] The next most common haplogroups borne by Copts are the Western European-linked R1b clade (15%), as well as the archaic African B lineage (15%).[29]

Maternally, Hassan (2009) found that Copts in Sudan exclusively carry various descendants of the macrohaplogroup N. This mtDNA clade is likewise closely associated with local Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations, including Berbers and Ethiopic peoples. Of the N derivatives borne by Copts, U6 is most frequent (28%), followed by the haplogroup T (17%).[31]

A 2015 study by Dobon et al. identified an ancestral autosomal component of West Eurasian origin that is common to many modern Afroasiatic-speaking populations in Northeast Africa. Known as the Coptic component, it peaks among Egyptian Copts who settled in Sudan over the past two centuries. Copts also formed a separated group in PCA, a close outlier to other Egyptians, Afro-Asiatic-speaking Northeast Africans and Middle East populations. The Coptic component evolved out of a main Northeast African and Middle Eastern ancestral component that is shared by other Egyptians and also found at high frequencies among other Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations in Northeast Africa (~70%). The scientists suggest that this points to a common origin for the general population of Egypt. They also associate the Coptic component with Ancient Egyptian ancestry, without the later Arabian influence that is present among other Egyptians.

quote:


Copts, with a strong individual heterogeneity, are more similar to Arabs (FST = 0.019) than to any other East African population....

The North African/Middle Eastern genetic component is identified especially in Copts. The Coptic population present in Sudan is an example of a recent migration from Egypt over the past two centuries. They are close to Egyptians in the PCA, but remain a differentiated cluster, showing their own component at k = 4 (Fig. 3). Copts lack the influence found in Egyptians from Qatar, an Arabic population. It may suggest that Copts have a genetic composition that could resemble the ancestral Egyptian population, without the present strong Arab influence.

--The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape

Begoña Dobon et al.




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