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Recent research on the people of Lower Egypt make it clear that the Hyksos were not invaders of Egypt as claimed by Anta Diop. The new research shows that in the 1960's when Diop did his research there was little evidence to support the Egyptian origin of the Hyksos.
This lack of evidence is not true today. The textual evidence from the Hyksos documents and archaeological evidence make it clear that they considered themselves Kushites. As noted above the Kushites were horsemen as indicated by the horse found at Buhen, and the chariot riding found in Africa as noted above.
At Buhen, one of the major fortresses of Nubia, which served as the headquarters of the Egyptian Viceroy of Kush a skeleton of a horse was found lying on the pavement of a Middle Kingdom rampart (W.B. Emery, A master-work of Egyptian military architecture 3900 years ago" Illustrated London News, 12 September, pp.250-251). This was only 25 years after the Hysos had conquered Egypt.The Kushites appear to have rode the horses on horseback instead of a chariot.
This suggest that the Kushites had been riding horses for an extended period of time for them to be able to attack Buhen on horseback. This supports the early habit of Africans riding horses as depicted in the rock art.This tradition was continued throughout the history of Kush.
Research by C. Stantis & H. Schutkowski in a paper presented at the 88th Annual Meeting of the American Association Physical Anthropologists (2019) in their paper “Migration into Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period”, observed that the ruling class may have been “foreign , the local people were native to the Lower Egypt during the Hyksos period at Tell el Dab’a (Avaris), Tell el-Rotaba (Rotaba), and Tell el-Maskhuta and other parts of the Delta or Temeh. New Scientists Discussed the Stantis research:
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"The tombs with non-[Upper] Egyptian burial customs were especially intriguing — typically males buried with bronze weaponry in constructed tombs, without scarabs or other protective amulets like Egyptians would have been buried with," Stantis told Live Science in an email.
"The most elite had equids of some sort (potentially donkeys) buried outside the tombs, often in pairs as though ready to pull a chariot. This is both a foreign characteristic of burial style[ of Upper Egypt], but also suggestive of someone [with] very high status," Stantis said. But long before the Hyksos emerged as a ruling dynasty in 1638 B.C., waves of migration brought this ethnic group into Egypt's delta region, the scientists reported in the study.
Stantis and her co-authors collected enamel samples from the teeth of 75 ancient people in three locations at Tell el-Dab'a. They scrutinized the enamel for strontium isotopes (variations of an element), and then compared the ratios with isotopes preserved in other remains and artifacts from the region and along the Nile, to determine whether the people living in Tell el-Dab'a were "local."
"Strontium enters our bodies primarily through the food we eat," Stantis said. "It readily replaces calcium, as it's a similar atomic radius. This is the same way lead enters our skeletal system; although, while lead is dangerous, strontium is not."
Because strontium reflects the underlying geology of a region, and because dental enamel geochemistry takes shape early in life, individuals with enamel values that match local values are thereby considered to be local to the region, Stantis explained.
The scientists also used geochemical analysis to determine the sex of the individuals, to better understand the male-to-female ratio in the Hyksos capital.
Isotopes in the majority of the teeth — belonging to 36 individuals — identified them as settling in Egypt prior to the start of the Hyskos dynasty, contradicting the narrative that the Hyksos first appeared as an invasive army. Intriguingly, the wide range of isotope values hinted that immigrants "did not come from one unified homeland," representing "an extensive variety of origins," according to the study.
Chemical analysis of the teeth also revealed that 30 of the individuals were female, while only 20 were found to be male. If the Hyksos had appeared in Egypt as invaders, the first wave of Hyksos would likely be all male, because men were typicallythe fighters in ancient societies. By comparison, the large number of women "immigrants" pre-dating the Hyksos dynasty suggests that women were at the forefront of the Hyksos migration to Egypt, the researchers reported.
"Some previous research talked about men moving into Egypt: shipbuilders, merchants, mercenaries. The concept of women moving, as a family or possibly alone, hasn't really been discussed," Stantis explained.
"We need to look more into who these women were and why they moved, but the fact that there's more women than men changes a lot of interpretations."
With a clearer picture of when the Hyksos arrived and how they settled in Egypt, the next steps will involve piecing together how the Hyksos adapted to the customs of their new home and how they blended new practices with their own cultural traditions, Stantis said.
Egyptian literature supports the archaeological evidence that the Hyksos were native to Lower Egypt. Thusly, the inscription of Weni line 46 : “His majesty made war on the Asiatic Sand-dwellers and his majesty made an army of many ten thousands; in the entire South, southward to Elephantine, and northward to Aphroditopolis [Busiris]; in the Northland on both sides entire in the [stronghold], and in the midst of the [strongholds], among the Irthet "heqa ḫ3st [Kusites], the Mazoi "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], the Yam "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], among the Wawat "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], among the Kau "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], and in the land of Temeh.” Nesmenser in https://www.temehu.com , noted that Sir Alan Gardiner said that Temeh'w means “Lower Egypt” as well as the “Delta”, indicates that Kushites lived in Lower Egypt.
Francis Llewellyn Griffith translated the Inscription of Una . Griffith translated thw word Nehesy as “negro”. Una listed the Kushite dynasties in the Weni inscription, as follows, “ When his Majesty chastised the Aamu-Herusha 6 and his Majesty made an army of many tens of thousands out of the whole of the Upper Country, from Abu 7 in the south to Aphroditopolis [?] in the north, and out of the Lower Country, from the whole of the two sides, 8 out of Sezer and Khen-sezeru, 9 negroes from Arertet, 10 negroes from Meza, negroes from [Y]Aam, negroes from Wawat, negroes from Kaau, and foreigners from the land of Temeh “. In relation to Temeh, the term “foreigner” would have been ḫ3st or Kushite just like the name ḫ3stused in relation to the other Kushite nations mentioned by Una. Thusly, the term Khasut or Hyksos should be read: Kushite.
If Temeh was a name for Lower Egypt, in addition to Libya makes it clear that Kushites lived not only in Nubia, but also Lower Egypt and Libya. New research from Lower Egypt indicates that the Hyksos were native to Lower Egypt or Temeh. .
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There are other published papers that support the Stantis research. The latest research on the Hyksos indicate that there was no invasion of Lower Egypt, the Hyksos were already living in Lower Egypt. Bruce Bower (2019), admits that there are no places in Lower Egypt that indicates any battles being fought in the region before and during the Hyksos period. Moreover, the archaeological evidence makes it clear that the Lower Egyptians and people in Libya and the Middle East practiced the same culture (Curry,2018). They also had strong relations with the Kushites in Nubia. This is not surprising because Lower Egypt , Libya and the Levant made up Temeh, which since the Una inscription dating to the Old Kingdom was ḫ3st or Khasut/ Kush.
References: Bower,B. (2019). Foreigners may have conquered ancient Egypt without invading it. ScienceNews , 2 April (2019). Curry, A. (2018). The Rulers of Foreign Lands, Archaeoloy Magazine, September/ October . Stantis Research (2020) , https://www.livescience.com/hyksos-did-not-invade-egypt.html
Winters.C (2018). The Kushites, Who, What, When, Where .
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The so-called west Semitic names of the Hyksos are in reality Kushite names taken into the Levant by the Nile Valley Kushites who first settled the Levant during Narmer's colonization of West Asia.
The Kushites, led by Narmer had early colonized the Levant and the rest of Eurasia.
The Kushites were called ḫЗst in Lower Egypt and the Levant. Kushites had early settled in the Levant since Narmer times.
We find Narmer's name on jars and serekhs from excavations in Israel and Palestine , for example Tel Erani, Arad, 'En Besor, Halif Terrace/Nahal Tillah and more(4). A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . . The Kushites at Nabta Playa herded cattle and cultivated crops. The Kushites cultivated pennisetum millet at Nabta Playa (c. 7950 BC ) and probably herded cattle . There is no archaeological evidence of the herding of Cattle and millet cultivation older than the Nabta Playa material .
A center of cattle worship was the Kiseiba -Nabta region in Middle Africa. At Nabta archaeologists have found the oldest megalithic site dating to 6000-6500 BC, which served as both a temple and calendar. This site was found by J. McKim Malville of the University of Colorado at Boulder and Fred Wendorf of Southern Methodist University.
The Kushites spread cultivation of Pennisetum millet and cattle herding into Anatolia, South Asia and Europe. As cattle herding Kushites frequently moved from place to place millet was an ideal domesticate. Millet was an especially favorite crop for the mobile Kushites because the grains are 1) a high yield per plant; 2) millet is drought tolerant and can be grown in various terrains; 3) millet has a short growing season so pastoralists could grow and harvest their crops in time to move their camp(s); and 4) the panicum millet has shallow roots so Kushite farmers could cultivate the crop with a hoe
The presence of Narmer’s ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite") bulla indicates that since the Levant was called ḫЗts.t or Kush, since Narmer ruled the area he was probably a Kushite. The modern interpretation of Gardiner’s Egyptian sign N25 as ḫЗts.t is wrong. There is no evidence that /t/ should be added to ḫЗts.t, as a result I believe N25 was originally ḫЗs, not ḫЗst .
Writing just Heqa ḫЗst means Kushite, while adding three lines makes the plural: Kushites. Thusly on the Semqen scarab we have Semqen king of the Kushites. On the Khnumhotep II Beni Hassan inscription we have Heqa ḫЗst in front of the lead Hyksos above the Nubian ibis, and the name Abisharie below heqa ḫЗst.
. The Hyksos were the Kushites of Temeh/ Lower Egypt .
.Brass, M. (2013). Revisiting a hoary chestnut: the nature of early cattle domestication in North-East Africa. Sahara (Segrate, Italy), 24, 65–70.
Mitchell P., Paul Lane (Ed.),(2013). The Oxford Handbook of African Archaeology. Oxford .
Miller N.F., Robert N Spengler, Michael Frachetti. (2010). Millet cultivation across Eurasia: Origins, spread, and the influence of seasonal climate, The Holocene , Vol. 26 10:1566-1575
Winters, C. (2018). The Kushites: Who, What, When, Where. Createspace.
posted
How can you sit up here and have the 'nerve' to accuse others of slander when they point out that Diop was wrong on a point, but here you are, claiming that Diop was wrong about something and it is to be all good. This is very hypocritical. Just wanted to point this out for those who follow the posts on this forum. Carry on . . .
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A group of West Asiatic foreigners visiting the Egyptian official Khnumhotep II circa 1900 BC. Tomb of 12th-dynasty official Khnumhotep II, at Beni Hasan. The Hieroglyph for Asian aAm can be observed as well as Hyksos
It is now commonly accepted in academic publications that the term Ḥḳꜣ-Ḫꜣswt refers only to the individual foreign rulers of the late Second Intermediate Period," especially of the Fifteenth Dynasty, rather than a people. However, it was used as an ethnic term by Josephus. Its use to refer to the population still persists in some academic papers.
In Ancient Egypt, the term "Hyksos " (ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt) was also used to refer to various Nubian and especially Asiatic rulers both before and after the Fifteenth Dynasty. It was used at least since the Sixth Dynasty of Egypt (c. 2345–2181 BC) to designate chieftains from the Syro-Palestine area. One of its earliest recorded use is found c. 1900 BC in the tomb of Khnumhotep II of the Twelfth Dynasty to label a Bedouin or Canaanite ruler named "Abisha the Hyksos" (using the standard 𓋾𓈎𓈉, ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt, "Heqa-kasut" for "Hyksos").
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A group of West Asiatic foreigners visiting the Egyptian official Khnumhotep II circa 1900 BC. Tomb of 12th-dynasty official Khnumhotep II, at Beni Hasan. The Hieroglyph for Asian aAm can be observed as well as Hyksos
It is now commonly accepted in academic publications that the term Ḥḳꜣ-Ḫꜣswt refers only to the individual foreign rulers of the late Second Intermediate Period," especially of the Fifteenth Dynasty, rather than a people. However, it was used as an ethnic term by Josephus. Its use to refer to the population still persists in some academic papers.
In Ancient Egypt, the term "Hyksos " (ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt) was also used to refer to various Nubian and especially Asiatic rulers both before and after the Fifteenth Dynasty. It was used at least since the Sixth Dynasty of Egypt (c. 2345–2181 BC) to designate chieftains from the Syro-Palestine area. One of its earliest recorded use is found c. 1900 BC in the tomb of Khnumhotep II of the Twelfth Dynasty to label a Bedouin or Canaanite ruler named "Abisha the Hyksos" (using the standard 𓋾𓈎𓈉, ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt, "Heqa-kasut" for "Hyksos").
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Stop making stuff up. The term ḫЗts.t ( Kasut) has been used since Narmer's time. The term Heqa for king was only applied to Egyptian Kings
We find Narmer's name on jars and serekhs from excavations in Israel and Palestine , for example Tel Erani, Arad, 'En Besor, Halif Terrace/Nahal Tillah and more(4). A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . .
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The term K3sh=Kush was introduced by Mentuhotep II (21st century BC founder of the Middle Kingdom)when he undertook campaigns against Kush in the 29th and 31st years of his reign.
In Sahure's time the Nehesy were called ḫ3st (Kushites), not Kush, like in Narmer's day. Thusly in the Egyptian literature supports the archaeological evidence that the Hyksos were native to Lower Egypt. In the inscription of Weni line 46 we read that : “His majesty made war on the Asiatic Sand-dwellers and his majesty made an army of many ten thousands; in the entire South, southward to Elephantine, and northward to Aphroditopolis [Busiris]; in the Northland on both sides entire in the [stronghold], and in the midst of the [strongholds], among the Irthet "heqa ḫ3st [Kusites], the Mazoi "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], the Yam "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], among the Wawat "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], among the Kau "heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], and in the land of Temeh.”
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In front of Abisharie we see heqa ḫ3st [Kushites], not Asian. On the Khnumhotep II Beni Hassan inscription we have Heqa ḫЗst in front of the lead Hyksos above the Nubian ibis, and the name Abisharie below heqa ḫЗst.
Thusly on the Semqen scarab we have Semqen king of the Kushites. On the Semqen scarab when Writing Heqa ḫЗst means Kushite, while adding three lines makes the plural: Kushites. . The Hyksos were the Kushites of Temeh/ Lower Egypt .
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posted
In front of Abisha is Heqa (Hyksos) glyph and at top left the broader category aAm, the Asian glyph and we can clearly they see the bound figure's head and hair closely resembling the larger picture of these Hyksos, not resembling Kushites and the glyph for Kushites is not in the scene.
You simply cut out this one Hyksos out of the scene of other Hyksos and you did that to conceal the Asian glyph associated with it when we sees more of these Asiatic Hyksos in this scene
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: In front of Abisha is Heqa (Hyksos) glyph and at top left the broader category aAm, the Asian glyph and we can clearly they see the bound figure's head and hair closely resembling the larger picture of these Hyksos, not resembling Kushites and the glyph for Kushites is not in the scene.
You simply cut out this one Hyksos out of the scene of other Hyksos and you did that to conceal the Asian glyph associated with it when we sees more of these Asiatic Hyksos in this scene
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. The fact remains that we see Heqa ḫ3st or Kushite in front of Abisharie, not Asian
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: In front of Abisha is Heqa (Hyksos) glyph and at top left the broader category aAm, the Asian glyph
You simply cut out this one Hyksos out of the scene of other Hyksos and you did that to conceal the Asian glyph associated with it when we sees more of these Asiatic Hyksos in this scene
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Heqa:xAst is in the singular and only refers to the group's sheikh Abisha and of course they're all Aamu but not the type of Aam as dark skinned as a Kushi like this Shasu. Nevermind Getty's racist ignorant description.
Refresher on the tomb painting in full context zooming out to see a good part of the wall it's on and zooming in on the text of the scribe's docket.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by Ase:
quote:
Heqa.khast Ab-sha and party bringing eye makeup for trade in Egypt. The chief/sheikh name is usually rendered Abisha. I wonder if that's really his name. Is the scribe being funny and calling this leader "Marsh Daddy"? register 3 in the above
The scribe holds a sheet. First it says Aamw have come. Then it say there's 37 of these Aamw. The scribe used a bound decapitated foreigner as the determinative for Aamw.
This scene uses Aamw in the plural three times. Heqa:khast a singular is used one time, only for the individual Abisha.
Abisha is even darker than the other Levantines. They all wear East Mediterranean style clothes. The men grow beards over their jaws and chin like the Shasu.
The tomb painting's from the 12th Dynasty (see the 12TH DYNASTY A 'NUBIAN' DYNASTY thread). The Hyksos(heqa:khaswt) dynasties are 400 years later, after the delta is sprinkled with en masse resettled Aamu.
Here's what I could work out about the overhead glyphs and the note in the scribe's hand. There you have it from the prime document.
Ab-sha, sheykh (heqa) over 37 foreign (khast) Aamu from Shu in possession of declarable amounts of mesdemet (galena used in making various eye cosmetics.
They're intercepted by a customs official who's the son of the mayor Khnumhotep.
Khnumhotep's job included "receiving" border crossing desert wanderers so he put a scene of that in his very well illustrated tomb.
Khast means hill country and by extension lands beyond the hills. Egypt is valley. So the idea of hill country meaning foreign land. Khast is singular. Khaswt is plural. There're more than a dozen different khast words applying the concept of foreign.
I can see a possibility the sha part of the name Abisha could refer to Sha su.
Shasu means Bedouin.
If Abisha isn't a Semitic name it could be Egyptic. heqa:khast ib sha could be sheikh hostile marshland since sha means marshland. A little more speculation can make sha an abbreviation for Shasu.
If so then heqa:khast ib sha simply means a beduin sheikh.
And what the tomb shows is 15 poor though well armed beduin, women, children, a lyre player, their humble sheikh, and his son paying two desert bovids in fees for permission to enter Egypt as an immigrant family of quality item traders.
It's OK to use the below if you don't alter it. Heqa:xAswt is boxed in blue and written in blue in the caption. In red are four of their Nehesi lands. The rulers of these lands, and Kau, were explicitly labeled kings (nsw) earlier in the same document, Weni's autobiography.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yeah that's the scribe w/t docket of the Kamrin translation. That's my go at the text above the heads tallying the 'Aamu 37' importers of galena. Let's not make more of this scene than it is.
posted
Stop trying to make it appear as if Abisharie was "King of the Mountains". Lower Egypt has wide valleys near the Nile and desert to the east and west. There are no mountains in the region, so this theory lacks credibility.
The Egyptian textual evidence makes it clear that Abisharie was the Kushite King, leading Hyksos of various ethnicities.
They included city folk and pastoral people. .
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They were not Aam or Shamu they were Kushites as acknowledged by Abisharie being recognized as their King. .
. Stop making stuff up. The term ḫЗts.t ( Kasut) has been used since Narmer's time. The term Heqa for king was only applied to Egyptian Kings
We find Narmer's name on jars and serekhs from excavations in Israel and Palestine , for example Tel Erani, Arad, 'En Besor, Halif Terrace/Nahal Tillah and more(4). A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The term K3sh=Kush was introduced by Mentuhotep II (21st century BC founder of the Middle Kingdom)when he undertook campaigns against Kush in the 29th and 31st years of his reign.
In Sahure's time the Nehesy were called ḫ3st (Kushites), not Kush, like in Narmer's day.
ḫ3st is general, it simply denotes foreigner. of the foreign land The Beni Hassan tomb 12th-dynasty, reign of Khnumhotep II , the scene clearly indicates Aamu in more than one place
Nehesy nHs is not in the text of this scene
Clyde will you stop the nonsense, we have a scene here, not one figure and the text clearly is talking about Asiatics Aam, you simply have blinders on
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
King of the mountains is a silly unimaginative strawman.
Foreign(xAst) ruler(heqa).
Any AEL dictionary will support that. Anyone can straight way vet/replicate that no private definition contortion needed nor called for.
Khnumhotep's scribe himself left us record these people are all Aamu of Shu whose sheikh (heqa) is named Ibsha --pick your own variant. They haven't always lived in Ta Mehh and in fact are intercepted by known custom & immigration officials.
That's the way I see it and its as good as anyone else's idea.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The term K3sh=Kush was introduced by Mentuhotep II (21st century BC founder of the Middle Kingdom)when he undertook campaigns against Kush in the 29th and 31st years of his reign.
In Sahure's time the Nehesy were called ḫ3st (Kushites), not Kush, like in Narmer's day.
ḫ3st is general, it simply denotes foreigner. of the foreign land The Beni Hassan tomb 12th-dynasty, reign of Khnumhotep II , the scene clearly indicates Aamu in more than one place
Nehesy nHs is not in the text of this scene
Clyde will you stop the nonsense, we have a scene here, not one figure and the text clearly is talking about Asiatics Aam, you simply have blinders on
This term is older than the rise of Egypt. Stop making stuff up. The term ḫЗts.t ( Kasut) has been used since Narmer's time. The term Heqa for king was only applied to Egyptian Kings
We find Narmer's name on jars and serekhs from excavations in Israel and Palestine , for example Tel Erani, Arad, 'En Besor, Halif Terrace/Nahal Tillah and more(4). A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: King of the mountains is a silly unimaginative strawman.
Foreign(xAst) ruler(heqa).
Any AEL dictionary will support that. Anyone can straight way vet/replicate that no private definition contortion needed nor called for.
Now you can have it your way I don't care.
Stop making stuff up. The term ḫЗts.t ( Kasut) has been used since Narmer's time. The term Heqa for king was only applied to Egyptian Kings A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . . This Bulla makes it clear that ḫ3st means Kushite not Foreigner.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Stop making stuff up? You must be talking to you.
Just what kinda bulla is going down here?
While you fabricate translations with impunity because no one can read.
So now suddenly after hundreds of years xAst really means kAS? What a blunder.
This is as ludicrous as believing cast means cash.
xAst is a solo sign word for a singular noun. kAS is a three sign word often determined by xAst as is every country and every foreign city in the AE gazetteer.
For xAst to mean kAS every place except Ta Wy is Kush. And like xAst has a plural, xAswt then kAS must have a plural, Kushes.
Not nothing to fight to the death over, got no vested interests.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The term K3sh=Kush was introduced by Mentuhotep II (21st century BC founder of the Middle Kingdom)when he undertook campaigns against Kush in the 29th and 31st years of his reign.
In Sahure's time the Nehesy were called ḫ3st (Kushites), not Kush, like in Narmer's day.
ḫ3st is general, it simply denotes foreigner. of the foreign land The Beni Hassan tomb 12th-dynasty, reign of Khnumhotep II , the scene clearly indicates Aamu in more than one place
Nehesy nHs is not in the text of this scene
Clyde will you stop the nonsense, we have a scene here, not one figure and the text clearly is talking about Asiatics Aam, you simply have blinders on
This term is older than the rise of Egypt. Stop making stuff up. The term ḫЗts.t ( Kasut) has been used since Narmer's time. The term Heqa for king was only applied to Egyptian Kings
We find Narmer's name on jars and serekhs from excavations in Israel and Palestine , for example Tel Erani, Arad, 'En Besor, Halif Terrace/Nahal Tillah and more(4). A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). .
None of that matters
what matters is the text describing this scene at Beni Hassan and the text describes these people as Asiatic not Nehesy
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Stop making stuff up? You must be talking to you.
Just what kinda bulla is going down here?
While you fabricate translations with impunity because no one can read.
So now suddenly after hundreds of years xAst really means kAS? What a blunder.
This is as ludicrous as believing cast means cash.
xAst is a solo sign word for a singular noun. kAS is a three sign word often determined by xAst as is every country and every foreign city in the AE gazetteer.
For xAst to mean kAS every place except Ta Wy is Kush. And like xAst has a plural, xAswt then kAS must have a plural, Kushes.
Not nothing to fight to the death over, got no vested interests.
. In relation to making stuff up I am talking to you and lioness.
You need to do more research. The bulla from the Levant dating to Narmer, supports my interpretation of that ḫ3st means Kushite not Foreigner.
The term ḫЗts.t ( Kasut) has been used since Narmer's time. The term Heqa for king was only applied to Egyptian Kings A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . . This Bulla makes it clear that ḫ3st means Kushite not Foreigner.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The term K3sh=Kush was introduced by Mentuhotep II (21st century BC founder of the Middle Kingdom)when he undertook campaigns against Kush in the 29th and 31st years of his reign.
In Sahure's time the Nehesy were called ḫ3st (Kushites), not Kush, like in Narmer's day.
ḫ3st is general, it simply denotes foreigner. of the foreign land The Beni Hassan tomb 12th-dynasty, reign of Khnumhotep II , the scene clearly indicates Aamu in more than one place
Nehesy nHs is not in the text of this scene
Clyde will you stop the nonsense, we have a scene here, not one figure and the text clearly is talking about Asiatics Aam, you simply have blinders on
This term is older than the rise of Egypt. Stop making stuff up. The term ḫЗts.t ( Kasut) has been used since Narmer's time. The term Heqa for king was only applied to Egyptian Kings
We find Narmer's name on jars and serekhs from excavations in Israel and Palestine , for example Tel Erani, Arad, 'En Besor, Halif Terrace/Nahal Tillah and more(4). A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). .
None of that matters
what matters is the text describing this scene at Beni Hassan and the text describes these people as Asiatic not Nehesy
.
. You are right the text matters. The text says Abasha King of the Kushite[s]. .
.
The Egyptian textual evidence makes it clear that Abisharie was the Kushite King, leading Hyksos of various ethnicities.
They included city folk and pastoral people. .
.
They were not Aam or Shamu they were Kushites as acknowledged by Abisharie being recognized as their King. .
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
We have to note that xAs.t simply means "hill-country, foreign land; desert" [Wb 3, 234.7-235.21]. In nisbe form we have xAs.tj "foreigner desert-dweller" [Wb 3, 236.1-2]. The word for "hill-country" (< mountain) comes from a verb xAz "to climb" [Wb 3, 234.1; FCD 185]. The -t suffix is the abstract/place nominalizer. Cf. xAsw.w "Mountain-bull" (6th nome of Lower Egypt] [Wb 3, 234.6; LÄ II, 396; VI 1302-1305; Montet, Géographie I, 89 f .; Gomaà, Besiedlung II, 100 f .; GDG IV, 155]
This same semantax exist in Sumerian: e.g., kur ; kir "underworld; land, country; mountain(s); east; easterner; east wind", which gives way to lu.kur "foreigner; stranger." lu- is a prefix denoting persons.
The semantax is that a foreigner is one who lives or comes from over the horizon: in this case the mountains. Unless one can defend that xAs.t is a by-form of kAS, which are clearly two different words, and can defend with evidence that kAS means "mountain; desert, etc.," this is a non-argument and once again we are victims to Clyde Winters' creative imagination.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
xAst, too, develop a signifies burial site, and its workers. Wb3 235 D II 21 and continued on Wb3 236 2. See strong association with zmyt at Wb3 444-5.
Thank you for the etymology and signs anyone willing can vet for themselves regardless any investigator's own ethnic culture and can present to all ethnic groups without appealing to group solidarity. Tribal myth and legend belongs IN the tribe and among the tribes sympathisers IMO
Egyptology Forum says it's a mainstream information site. I enjoy a good comic book but not all up in my mainstream Egyptology
xAst and some applications from the user friendly Vygus(2012) dictionary
A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . . This Bulla makes it clear that ḫ3st means Kushite not Foreigner.
The bulla was published by Thomas E Levy,David Alon,Yorke M. RowanYorke M. Rowan.(1995). Egyptian-Canaanite Interaction at Nahal Tillah, Israel (ca. 4500-3000 B. C. E.): An Interim Report on the 1994-1995 Excavations. Available from:
Meaning of a word must be associated with it's usage at a given time period, 1900 B.C at Beni Hassan not Narmer 3100 BC over 1000 years earlier !!
the earliest Egyptian reference to Kush is during Mentuhotep's reign 2061–2010 BC !! (11th dyansty)
In Ancient Egypt, the term "Hyksos " (ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt) was also used to refer to various Nubian and especially Asiatic rulers both before and after the Fifteenth Dynasty. It was used at least since the Sixth Dynasty of Egypt (c. 2345–2181 BC) to designate chieftains from the Syro-Palestine area.
The Hyksos' personal names indicate that they spoke a Western Semitic language and "may be called for convenience sake Canaanites."
The use of a word must be inked to the time period where it was used to ascertian the meaning, the usage at a particular time
At one glance we can easily see people are all of one type with the same hair and vertically striped garment, clearly not resembling Kushites. "Hysos is applied to the leader's name of this group of Asiatics
Diop thought they were Hyksos were Sycthians according to thisalthough looking at the dates, by name it would make more sense to theorize the reverse, Sycthians as former Hyksos (but I can see no connection)
the Sycthians are of 7th century B.C. and these Beni Hassan figures 1900 B.C., Hyksos dynasty in Egypt 1650–1550 BC)
However our nutty uncle has this covered too>
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The original Scythians were Kushites. Later, Europeans gave the name to the Sacae,a group of Central asian nomads.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: We have to note that xAs.t simply means "hill-country, foreign land; desert" [Wb 3, 234.7-235.21]. In nisbe form we have xAs.tj "foreigner desert-dweller" [Wb 3, 236.1-2]. The word for "hill-country" (< mountain) comes from a verb xAz
The semantax is that a foreigner is one who lives or comes from over the horizon: in this case the mountains. Unless one can defend that xAs.t is a by-form of kAS, which are clearly two different words, and can defend with evidence that kAS means "mountain; desert, etc.," this is a non-argument and once again we are victims to Clyde Winters' creative imagination.
This is a silly post. The archaeological evidence makes it clear that the Hyksos were not invaders.
The Hyksos wrote their own seals, scarabs and other text. It is inconceivable to believe the Hyksos Kings would identify themselves as foreigners or 'hill/mountain people', when they were indigenous to Lower Egypt.Plus, there are no mountains in Lower Egypt. .
.
These seals make it clear they called theselves heqa ḫ3st King of the Kushites, as illustrated by the three lines they made under ḫ3st.
The presence of Narmer’s ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite") bulla indicates that since the Levant was called ḫЗts.t or Kush, since Narmer ruled the area he was probably a Kushite. The modern interpretation of Gardiner’s Egyptian sign N25 as ḫЗts.t is wrong. There is no evidence that /t/ should be added to ḫЗts.t, as a result I believe N25 was originally ḫЗs, not ḫЗst .
Writing just Heqa ḫЗst means Kushite, while adding three lines makes the plural: Kushites. Thusly on the Semqen scarab we have Semqen king of the Kushites. On the Khnumhotep II Beni Hassan inscription we have Heqa ḫЗst in front of the lead Hyksos above the Nubian ibis, and the name Abisharie below heqa ḫЗst.
. The Hyksos were the Kushites of Temeh/ Lower Egypt .
. The
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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A bulla dating to this period makes it clear that this part of the Negev was called ḫЗts.t ("Kush") or ḫ3s.tj ("Kushite"). . . This Bulla makes it clear that ḫ3st means Kushite not Foreigner.
The bulla was published by Thomas E Levy,David Alon,Yorke M. RowanYorke M. Rowan.(1995). Egyptian-Canaanite Interaction at Nahal Tillah, Israel (ca. 4500-3000 B. C. E.): An Interim Report on the 1994-1995 Excavations. Available from:
Meaning of a word must be associated with it's usage at a given time period, 1900 B.C at Beni Hassan not Narmer 3100 BC over 1000 years earlier !!
the earliest Egyptian reference to Kush is during Mentuhotep's reign 2061–2010 BC !! (11th dyansty)
In Ancient Egypt, the term "Hyksos " (ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt) was also used to refer to various Nubian and especially Asiatic rulers both before and after the Fifteenth Dynasty. It was used at least since the Sixth Dynasty of Egypt (c. 2345–2181 BC) to designate chieftains from the Syro-Palestine area.
The Hyksos' personal names indicate that they spoke a Western Semitic language and "may be called for convenience sake Canaanites."
The use of a word must be inked to the time period where it was used to ascertian the meaning, the usage at a particular time
At one glance we can easily see people are all of one type with the same hair and vertically striped garment, clearly not resembling Kushites. "Hysos is applied to the leader's name of this group of Asiatics
Kushites
[/QB]
You are very deceptive. Abisha was also leading the other Hyksos on the left in addition to the herders. . . . . Stop making stuff up the meaning of ḫ3st (Kushite) remained constant from Narmer's time up to the Hyksos period.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Diop thought they were Hyksos were Sycthians according to thisalthough looking at the dates, by name it would make more sense to theorize the reverse, Sycthians as former Hyksos (but I can see no connection)
the Sycthians are of 7th century B.C. and these Beni Hassan figures 1900 B.C., Hyksos dynasty in Egypt 1650–1550 BC)
However our nutty uncle has this covered too>
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The original Scythians were Kushites. Later, Europeans gave the name to the Sacae,a group of Central asian nomads.
Stop making stuff up. Scythian was another name for the Kushites.
Scythian was Col. Rawlinson's name for the Kushites of Mesopotamia and etc..
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Thank you for the etymology and signs anyone willing can vet for themselves regardless any investigator's own ethnic culture and can present to all ethnic groups without appealing to group solidarity. Tribal myth and legend belongs IN the tribe and among the tribes sympathisers IMO
Egyptology Forum says it's a mainstream information site. I enjoy a good comic book but not all up in my mainstream Egyptology
xAst and some applications from the user friendly Vygus(2012) dictionary
Kush is just another khast in the list.
None of these terms are written heqa ḫ3st
.
.
The text says Abasha King of the Kushite[s]. .
.
The Egyptian textual evidence makes it clear that Abisharie was the Kushite King, leading Hyksos of various ethnicities.
They included city folk and pastoral people. .
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Clyde, why are we even talking about the glyphs when it is instantly apparent that the figures in this Beni Hassan wall painting do not look like Kushites, or any Nehesy in the other art, not even close. Why be ridiculous?
And how can you be so dishonest as to ignore Aamu in the text describing this scene and the Egyptian holding the sign with Aamu twice more describing the scene. How can you be that dishonest and keep pretending it doesn't say that?
Suppose on had a theory that the Hyksos? At least a rational person would try to use some other art and not this painting from Beni Hassan where the text clearly describes and spells out these people as Asiatic?
If you are going to pull a rabbit out of a hat practice more so that the tip of rabbits ear is not peeking out of your sleeve
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: xAst and some applications from the user friendly Vygus(2012) dictionary
Kush is just another khast in the list.
None of these terms are written heqa ḫ3st.
What in? Such a foolish non-sequitor to distract childish readers that xAst can't mean kAS since a - every land outside Egypt is xAst determined b - Kush has no plural, xAst does, it's xAswt.
Primary documents vs argumentation.
Looks like I'm chasing a lotta nonserious chain yanking?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Not no hyksos in the original. This ain't xAswt which is a plural needing three strokes or actually three repititions of the same sign.
This is basic Ren Kemet.
What you have here is xAst (singular) which makes hyksos impossible, gotta have that w in there for the o. Hyksos is best left for those 2nd Intermediate Delta dynasties 400 years to come.
Heqa khast is simply foreign ruler. Whatever that foreigner rules over. From a kingdom to nomads, each n all. Best translated sheikh here since he's leading, at most, an apparent bedouin tribe and lacks kingly entourage and finery. "If he pimp, he broke pimp!"
Not no hyksos in the original. This ain't xAswt which is a plural needing three strokes or actually three repititions of the same sign.
This is basic Ren Kemet.
What you have here is xAst (singular) which makes hyksos impossible, gotta have that w in there for the o. Hyksos is best left for those 2nd Intermediate Delta dynasties 400 years to come.
Heqa khast is simply foreign ruler. Whatever that foreigner rules over. From a kingdom to nomads, all. [/QB]
Hyksos Standard characters for "Hyksos" in the label for "Abisha the Hyksos" in the tomb of Khnumhotep II, c. 1900 BC.[19] The crook (𓋾, ḥḳꜣ) means "ruler", the hill (𓈎) means "hilly" (i.e. foreign), while 𓈉 is a well-known determinative for "country", the two together being pronounced ḫꜣswt. The sign 𓏥 marks the plural. ______________________________________
^^ you are saying this is incorrect? That shoud not be called a "Hyksos" glyph?
And looking at the previous image I posted marked
Heqa-Kasut Abisha hk3-h3swt
what should the proper title be? I want to stick with Abisha rather than Ibsha since Abisha is more common in books
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, why are we even talking about the glyphs when it is instantly apparent that the figures in this Beni Hassan wall painting do not look like Kushites, or any Nehesy in the other art, not even close. Why be ridiculous?
And how can you be so dishonest as to ignore Aamu in the text describing this scene and the Egyptian holding the sign with Aamu twice more describing the scene. How can you be that dishonest and keep pretending it doesn't say that?
Suppose on had a theory that the Hyksos? At least a rational person would try to use some other art and not this painting from Beni Hassan where the text clearly describes and spells out these people as Asiatic?
If you are going to pull a rabbit out of a hat practice more so that the tip of rabbits ear is not peeking out of your sleeve
.
I am not ignoring the text. It is plain to see that the Hyksos were made up of numerous people of different professions.
You already was dishonest when you tried to point out only one segment of the people being led by Abisha.. The term means Kushite as it was meant since Narmer's time. .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Not no hyksos in the original. This ain't xAswt which is a plural needing three strokes or actually three repititions of the same sign.
This is basic Ren Kemet.
What you have here is xAst (singular) which makes hyksos impossible, gotta have that w in there for the o. Hyksos is best left for those 2nd Intermediate Delta dynasties 400 years to come.
Heqa khast is simply foreign ruler. Whatever that foreigner rules over. From a kingdom to nomads, each n all. Best translated sheikh here since he's leading, at most, an apparent bedouin tribe and lacks kingly entourage and finery. "If he pimp, he broke pimp!"
. . It means Abisha King of the Kushites. Why would Abisha call himself foreign ruler when he was native to Lower Egypt which called Kush in the Una inscription. .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: xAst and some applications from the user friendly Vygus(2012) dictionary
Kush is just another khast in the list.
None of these terms are written heqa ḫ3st.
What in? Such a foolish non-sequitor to distract childish readers that xAst can't mean kAS since a - every land outside Egypt is xAst determined b - Kush has no plural, xAst does, it's xAswt.
Primary documents vs argumentation.
Looks like I'm chasing a lotta nonserious chain yanking?
. You are full of nonsense . Non of these entries include the Heqa sign. They all have the hook or flail sign. Stop making stuff up. .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
See, when a person attacks a person instead of the message, the response is ego driven.
Again, that listing proves that xAst is used for every nonEgyptian nation and people not only for Kush. Dissembly, distraction, and personal put downs only fool fools who can't stay on point or prefer banter to knowledge. A lowering of the bar inadmissible in scholarly discourse.
Mainstream bottomline, kAS isn't xAst. kAS is but one xAst. Every country/people are xAst except Egypt which is a niwt.
If ya wanna see a Hq word listing politely request it is what to do.
Dr Winters you are using my copyrighted work outside of my permission that to use it you must leave it unaltered.
Have you no ethics and morals?
Start from scratch and produce your own figure if you will not comply to leave mine unmarked.
Consider this a cease and desist notice. Owner and domain host are aware of this complaint and I will escalate to appropriate internet regulation agencies afforded by US law.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, why are we even talking about the glyphs when it is instantly apparent that the figures in this Beni Hassan wall painting do not look like Kushites, or any Nehesy in the other art, not even close. Why be ridiculous?
And how can you be so dishonest as to ignore Aamu in the text describing this scene and the Egyptian holding the sign with Aamu twice more describing the scene. How can you be that dishonest and keep pretending it doesn't say that?
Suppose on had a theory that the Hyksos? At least a rational person would try to use some other art and not this painting from Beni Hassan where the text clearly describes and spells out these people as Asiatic?
If you are going to pull a rabbit out of a hat practice more so that the tip of rabbits ear is not peeking out of your sleeve
.
I am not ignoring the text. It is plain to see that the Hyksos were made up of numerous people of different professions.
You already was dishonest when you tried to point out only one segment of the people being led by Abisha.. The term means Kushite as it was meant since Narmer's time. .
How can you be so dishonest as to ignore Aamu in the text describing this scene and the Egyptian holding the sign with Aamu twice more describing the scene. How can you be that dishonest and keep pretending it doesn't say that?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You're free to use any variant of Ib Sha you wanna. Lookit how Dr Winters spells it with invented consonants not in the original doc. The illo shows a man leading a bunch of bedouin. What other title but sheikh fits Mr IbSha?
I know it's stuffy but sometimes using standard ASCII transliteration aids in glyph cyphering so discussants all know what each other means without doubt or vaguery. If using the standard is too hard maybe one should forego this topic. I didn't like it at first but had to give in to it too.
xAst is singular. xAswt is plural. Hyksos is a plural heqa xAswt. Singular heqa xAst cannot xlate to plural Hyksos. It translates to the singular foreign ruler.
In the painting of Neferhotep presenting 37 Aamu with galena, their leader's title has 1 not 3 smyt signs and no strokes.
See Wb3 p234 #10 13 14 & 16 and Wb3 p235 #1 for plural example xAswt also the Wb belegstellen 3 p72 for further instances of #11 & 16
There's no translation using hyk. Hyksos is not an Egyptian word. It's Greek and is mistaken in Josephus' version of Manetho. New Kingdom docs simply call Dyn 15 etc ppl Asiatics without specifying further ethnicity.
"Here I sit with an Aamw and a Nehesi. Each ruling his slice of this Egypt."
Ask yourself: "Self, why the Nehesi kings Weni documented as heqa:xAswt are never called hyksos?"
Hyksos is mistake causing a ball of confusion. What AE would see Shepherd Kings in heqa:xAswt? Which word is shepherd. Which word is kings?
Greek word Hyksos, a mangling of AEL heq[a xA]Swt? Some Alexandrian common street talk pronunciation?
I ain't got no book to sell I ain't no guru building up a following I just a singer in a rockNfunk band belting clean lyrics objectively as I can
No vested interests. Nothing at stake to fight to the death over and against all odds
ES/ESR archives show I back down and co-op when unknown facts disconfirm a hypothesis (like the complexion of Timgad 4 Seasons mosaic)
Not out to be right over all. Out for an authentic Africana.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Not no hyksos in the original. This ain't xAswt which is a plural needing three strokes or actually three repititions of the same sign.
This is basic Ren Kemet.
What you have here is xAst (singular) which makes hyksos impossible, gotta have that w in there for the o. Hyksos is best left for those 2nd Intermediate Delta dynasties 400 years to come.
Heqa khast is simply foreign ruler. Whatever that foreigner rules over. From a kingdom to nomads, all.
Hyksos Standard characters for "Hyksos" in the label for "Abisha the Hyksos" in the tomb of Khnumhotep II, c. 1900 BC.[19] The crook (𓋾, ḥḳꜣ) means "ruler", the hill (𓈎) means "hilly" (i.e. foreign), while 𓈉 is a well-known determinative for "country", the two together being pronounced ḫꜣswt. The sign 𓏥 marks the plural. ______________________________________
^^ you are saying this is incorrect? That shoud not be called a "Hyksos" glyph?
And looking at the previous image I posted marked
Heqa-Kasut Abisha hk3-h3swt
what should the proper title be? I want to stick with Abisha rather than Ibsha since Abisha is more common in books [/QB]
posted
^ Unfortunately that is exactly what Clyde does-- he takes something factual and twists it into a ridiculous theory OR he takes a mistake and makes a theory out of that.
Take his claims on R1b in West Africa. Nobody is denying that R1b was in that region before European colonization but to say that it is an indigenous African lineage and not derived from the Eurasian R1 clade is absurd.
This is why I don't bother addressing the guy. He is full of delusions and it is a waste of time arguing with someone like that.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: See, when a person attacks a person instead of the message, the response is ego driven.
Again, that listing proves that xAst is used for every nonEgyptian nation and people not only for Kush. Dissembly, distraction, and personal put downs only fool fools who can't stay on point or prefer banter to knowledge. A lowering of the bar inadmissible in scholarly discourse.
Mainstream bottomline, kAS isn't xAst. kAS is but one xAst. Every country/people are xAst except Egypt which is a niwt.
If ya wanna see a Hq word listing politely request it is what to do.
Dr Winters you are using my copyrighted work outside of my permission that to use it you must leave it unaltered.
Have you no ethics and morals?
Start from scratch and produce your own figure if you will not comply to leave mine unmarked.
Consider this a cease and desist notice. Owner and domain host are aware of this complaint and I will escalate to appropriate internet regulation agencies afforded by US law.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: You're free to use any variant of Ib Sha you wanna. Lookit how Dr Winters spells it with invented consonants not in the original doc. The illo shows a man leading a bunch of bedouin. What other title but sheikh fits Mr IbSha?
I know it's stuffy but sometimes using standard ASCII transliteration aids in glyph cyphering so discussants all know what each other means without doubt or vaguery. If using the standard is too hard maybe one should forego this topic. I didn't like it at first but had to give in to it too.
xAst is singular. xAswt is plural. Hyksos is a plural heqa xAswt. Singular heqa xAst cannot xlate to plural Hyksos. It translates to the singular foreign ruler.
In the painting of Neferhotep presenting 37 Aamu with galena, their leader's title has 1 not 3 smyt signs and no strokes.
See Wb3 p234 #10 13 14 & 16 and Wb3 p235 #1 for plural example xAswt also the Wb belegstellen 3 p72 for further instances of #11 & 16
There's no translation using hyk. Hyksos is not an Egyptian word. It's Greek and is mistaken in Josephus' version of Manetho. New Kingdom docs simply call Dyn 15 etc ppl Asiatics without specifying further ethnicity.
"Here I sit with an Aamw and a Nehesi. Each ruling his slice of this Egypt."
Ask yourself: "Self, why the Nehesi kings Weni documented as heqa:xAswt are never called hyksos?"
Hyksos is mistake causing a ball of confusion. What AE would see Shepherd Kings in heqa:xAswt? Which word is shepherd. Which word is kings?
Greek word Hyksos, a mangling of AEL heq[a xA]Swt? Some Alexandrian common street talk pronunciation?
I ain't got no book to sell I ain't no guru building up a following I just a singer in a rockNfunk band belting clean lyrics objectively as I can
No vested interests. Nothing at stake to fight to the death over and against all odds
ES/ESR archives show I back down and co-op when unknown facts disconfirm a hypothesis (like the complexion of Timgad 4 Seasons mosaic)
Not out to be right over all. Out for an authentic Africana.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Not no hyksos in the original. This ain't xAswt which is a plural needing three strokes or actually three repititions of the same sign.
This is basic Ren Kemet.
What you have here is xAst (singular) which makes hyksos impossible, gotta have that w in there for the o. Hyksos is best left for those 2nd Intermediate Delta dynasties 400 years to come.
Heqa khast is simply foreign ruler. Whatever that foreigner rules over. From a kingdom to nomads, all.
Hyksos Standard characters for "Hyksos" in the label for "Abisha the Hyksos" in the tomb of Khnumhotep II, c. 1900 BC.[19] The crook (𓋾, ḥḳꜣ) means "ruler", the hill (𓈎) means "hilly" (i.e. foreign), while 𓈉 is a well-known determinative for "country", the two together being pronounced ḫꜣswt. The sign 𓏥 marks the plural. ______________________________________
^^ you are saying this is incorrect? That shoud not be called a "Hyksos" glyph?
And looking at the previous image I posted marked
Heqa-Kasut Abisha hk3-h3swt
what should the proper title be? I want to stick with Abisha rather than Ibsha since Abisha is more common in books
[/QB]
.
Stop making stuff up there are no hills in Lower Egypt. He was Absha King of the Kushites. The Heqa Khasut sign was used for all the Hyksos/Kushite Kings .
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde, why are we even talking about the glyphs when it is instantly apparent that the figures in this Beni Hassan wall painting do not look like Kushites, or any Nehesy in the other art, not even close. Why be ridiculous?
And how can you be so dishonest as to ignore Aamu in the text describing this scene and the Egyptian holding the sign with Aamu twice more describing the scene. How can you be that dishonest and keep pretending it doesn't say that?
Suppose on had a theory that the Hyksos? At least a rational person would try to use some other art and not this painting from Beni Hassan where the text clearly describes and spells out these people as Asiatic?
If you are going to pull a rabbit out of a hat practice more so that the tip of rabbits ear is not peeking out of your sleeve
.
I am not ignoring the text. It is plain to see that the Hyksos were made up of numerous people of different professions.
You already was dishonest when you tried to point out only one segment of the people being led by Abisha.. The term means Kushite as it was meant since Narmer's time. .
How can you be so dishonest as to ignore Aamu in the text describing this scene and the Egyptian holding the sign with Aamu twice more describing the scene. How can you be that dishonest and keep pretending it doesn't say that?
. I am writing the signs that appear in front of Absha. I am being true to the textual evidence.
.
. This facsimile of Absha was painted at the tomb in 1931 by Norman de Garis Davies.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Clyde the term "Hyksos " (ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt) was also used to refer to various Nubian and especially Asiatic rulers . It was used at least since the Sixth Dynasty of Egypt (c. 2345–2181 BC) to designate chieftains from the Syro-Palestine area.
It was used for both Nubian and Asiatic rulers so you got confused. It doesn't mean those Asiatic rulers are Kushites
So when we look at it's use in this Beni Hassan we can see as clear as the blue sky that the people do not resemble Kushites and in addition Aam is used in the text describing them. So this is obviously not one of the instances where this same term is used for Kushites
So this is not a good hustle for you since anybody can go to the scene and see instantly there are not Kushites and if they go further the text verifies there are Asiatics. So this term ḥḳꜣ-ḫꜣswt can be applied separately to both Asiatics an Nubians, it is not a racial term it is merely indicating foreigners
look at this pointy ass nose and has very small lips. This is not resembling kushites, this is the actual wall, not the facsimile you keep showing
I thought we agreed you'd stop making up stuff
(detail) Leaders of the Aamu of Shu ca. 1887–1878 B.C. Middle Kingdom Norman de Garis Davies
Similar facsimile version
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simply means "hill-country, foreign land; desert" [Wb 3, 234.7-235.21]. In nisbe form we have xAs.tj 
"foreigner desert-dweller" [Wb 3, 236.1-2]. The word for "hill-country" (< mountain) comes from a verb xAz 
"to climb" [Wb 3, 234.1; FCD 185]. The -t suffix is the abstract/place nominalizer. Cf. xAsw.w 
"Mountain-bull" (6th nome of Lower Egypt] [Wb 3, 234.6; LÄ II, 396; VI 1302-1305; Montet, Géographie I, 89 f .; Gomaà, Besiedlung II, 100 f .; GDG IV, 155]
; kir 
"underworld; land, country; mountain(s); east; easterner; east wind", which gives way to lu.kur 
"foreigner; stranger." lu- is a prefix denoting persons. 
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