Topic: Popular Genetic Method Found To Be Deeply Flawed
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Affecting Up to 216,000 Studies – Popular Genetic Method Found To Be Deeply Flawed By Lund University September 23, 2022
The flawed method has been used in hundreds of thousands of studies.
A new study reveals flaws in a common analytical method within population genetics.
According to recent research from Sweden’s Lund University, the most commonly used analytical method in population genetics is deeply flawed. This could have caused incorrect results and misconceptions regarding ethnicity and genetic relationships. The method has been used in hundreds of thousands of studies, influencing findings in medical genetics and even commercial ancestry tests. The findings were recently published in the journal Scientific Reports.
The pace at which scientific data can be gathered is increasing rapidly, resulting in huge and very complex databases, which has been nicknamed the “Big Data revolution.” Researchers employ statistical techniques to condense and simplify the data while maintaining the majority of the important information in order to make the data more manageable. PCA (principal component analysis) is perhaps the most widely used approach. Imagine PCA as an oven with flour, sugar, and eggs serving as the input data. The oven may always perform the same thing, but the ultimate result, a cake, is highly dependent on the ratios of the ingredients and how they are mixed.
“It is expected that this method will give correct results because it is so frequently used. But it is neither a guarantee of reliability nor produces statistically robust conclusions,” says Dr. Eran Elhaik, Associate Professor in molecular cell biology at Lund University.
According to Elhaik, the method contributed to the development of old beliefs about race and ethnicity. It plays a role in manufacturing historical tales of who and where people come from, not only by the scientific community but also by commercial ancestry companies. A well-known example is when a famous American politician used an ancestry test to back their ancestral claims prior to the 2020 presidential campaign. Another example is the misconception of Ashkenazic Jews as an isolated group or race driven by PCA results.
“This study demonstrates that those results were unreliable,” says Eran Elhaik.
PCA is used across many scientific fields, but Elhaik’s study focuses on its usage in population genetics, where the explosion in dataset sizes is particularly acute, which is driven by the reduced costs of DNA sequencing.
Between 32,000 and 216,000 scientific articles in genetics alone have employed PCA for exploring and visualizing similarities and differences between individuals and populations and based their conclusions on these results.
“I believe these results must be re-evaluated,” says Elhaik.
He hopes that the new study will develop a better approach to questioning results and thus help to make science more reliable. He spent a significant portion of the past decade pioneering such methods, like the Geographic Population Structure (GPS) for predicting biogeography from DNA and the Pairwise Matcher to improve case-control matches used in genetic tests and drug trials.
Reference: “Principal Component Analyses (PCA)-based findings in population genetic studies are highly biased and must be reevaluated” by Eran Elhaik, 29 August 2022, Scientific Reports. DOI: 10.1038/s41598-022-14395-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-14395-4
New Report Finds Principal Component Analysis Biased, Unreliable staff reporter, GenomeWeb, 2022 Study reveals flaws in popular genetic method by Lund University, Phys.org, 2022
posted
lol according to Eran Elhaik I don't think it needs further detail
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Lund University write up of the above
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
August 30, 2022 Study reveals flaws in popular genetic method by Lund University
Evaluating the accuracy of PCA clustering for a heterogeneous test population in a simulation of a GWAS setting. (A) The true distribution of the test Cyan population (n = 1000). (B) PCA of the test population with eight even-sized (n = 250) samples from reference populations. (C) PCA of the test population with Blue from the previous analysis shows a minimal overlap between the cohorts. (D) PCA of the test population with five even-sized (n = 250) samples from reference populations, including Cyan (marked by an arrow). Colors (B) from top to bottom and left to right include: Yellow [1,1,0], light Red [1,0,0.5], Purple [1,0,1], Dark Purple [0.5,0,0.5], Black [0,0,0], dark Green [0,0.5,0], Green [0,1,0], and Blue [1,0,0]. Credit: Scientific Reports (2022). DOI: 10.1038/s41598-022-14395-4
The most common analytical method within population genetics is deeply flawed, according to a new study from Lund University in Sweden. This may have led to incorrect results and misconceptions about ethnicity and genetic relationships. The method has been used in hundreds of thousands of studies, affecting results within medical genetics and even commercial ancestry tests. The study is published in Scientific Reports.
The rate at which scientific data can be collected is rising exponentially, leading to massive and highly complex datasets, dubbed the "Big Data revolution." To make these data more manageable, researchers use statistical methods that aim to compact and simplify the data while still retaining most of the key information. Perhaps the most widely used method is called PCA (principal component analysis). By analogy, think of PCA as an oven with flour, sugar and eggs as the data input. The oven may always do the same thing, but the outcome, a cake, critically depends on the ingredients' ratios and how they are combined. "It is expected that this method will give correct results because it is so frequently used. But it is neither a guarantee of reliability nor produces statistically robust conclusions," says Dr. Eran Elhaik, Associate Professor in molecular cell biology at Lund University.
According to Elhaik, the method helped create old perceptions about race and ethnicity. It plays a role in manufacturing historical tales of who and where people come from, not only by the scientific community but also by commercial ancestry companies. A famous example is when a prominent American politician took an ancestry test before the 2020 presidential campaign to support their ancestral claims. Another example is the misconception of Ashkenazic Jews as a race or an isolated group driven by PCA results.
"This study demonstrates that those results were unreliable," says Eran Elhaik.
PCA is used across many scientific fields, but Elhaik's study focuses on its usage in population genetics, where the explosion in dataset sizes is particularly acute, which is driven by the reduced costs of DNA sequencing.
The field of paleogenomics, where we want to learn about ancient peoples and individuals such as Copper age Europeans, heavily relies on PCA. PCA is used to create a genetic map that positions the unknown sample alongside known reference samples. Thus far, the unknown samples have been assumed to be related to whichever reference population they overlap or lie closest to on the map.
However, Elhaik discovered that the unknown sample could be made to lie close to virtually any reference population just by changing the numbers and types of the reference samples, generating practically endless historical versions, all mathematically "correct," but only one may be biologically correct.
In the study, Elhaik has examined the twelve most common population genetic applications of PCA. He has used both simulated and real genetic data to show just how flexible PCA results can be. According to Elhaik, this flexibility means that conclusions based on PCA cannot be trusted since any change to the reference or test samples will produce different results.
Between 32,000 and 216,000 scientific articles in genetics alone have employed PCA for exploring and visualizing similarities and differences between individuals and populations and based their conclusions on these results.
"I believe these results must be re-evaluated," says Elhaik.
He hopes that the new study will develop a better approach to questioning results and thus help to make science more reliable. He spent a significant portion of the past decade pioneering such methods, like the geographic population structure (GPS), for predicting biogeography from DNA, and the Pairwise Matcher, which improves case-control matches used in genetic tests and drug trials.
"Techniques that offer such flexibility encourage bad science and are particularly dangerous in a world where there is intense pressure to publish. If a researcher runs PCA several times, the temptation will always be to select the output that makes the best story," adds Prof. William Amos, from the Univesity of Cambridge, who was not involved in the study.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Intelligent thought out replies welcome whether observations comments or critiques.
A proper critique goes beyond logical fallacies like ridicule and character assassination, which offer nothing of value, and examines materials such as a study's data, methodology, and charts paying attention to falsification, replicable results, and other science criterion.
Attack or defense of PCA based on other sources or personal experience invited.
=-=
Elhaik, E. Principal Component Analyses (PCA)-based findings in population genetic studies are highly biased and must be reevaluated. Sci Rep12, 14683 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-022-14395-4
posted
Not unsuspected,if you have a small portion of population trying to reveal the history of humanity without the input from everybody else then what else should someone except?
Heck,if Europeans can't get their on history as accurate as possible,why should I believe they can get that information right about any other group?
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is a critique on the PCA outputs we generate.
To be fair. The limitations of runnig PCA's in pop-gen is no secret. It had been stated quite a lot actually.
Fun fact, I'll even go on record and saying that it is 100% true that PCA are published based on the story it tells. Just switching up the populations included in the estimates can drastically change the shape and output of the results.
Two things I believe most people look for when choosing how to publish their PCA.
1. Confluence 2. reconciliation
Confluence is the easiest to understand and was the basis for the general shape or results we seen since the first major published global PCA. It's basically when researchers do a study and find a pattern by multiple metrics, so they select the PCA out put which doesn't contradict the narrative or helped elucidate it.
reconciliation in my opinion is more controversial. This goes beyond the study that the PCA is published in. For instance, if a renown study dropped in 2013 that has extreme separation of the Yoruba and Iran_N in PC1, a 2022 study will not post results of showing the two to be close. It's because it's difficult to reconcile with data that'll show such deviance. I know for a fact if you include all the available diploid genomes that we have of modern populations into the processing of a PCA (especially with a lot of Africans) the PCA will become borderline illegible. It'll be tough to understand why certain people are grouped closer together when given the lack of control.
I don't think it's a big deal until we look at fanatics and enthusiast. Most people have their conclusions drawn off of the results from a PCA. Moreover there are sites that takes PCA outputs (which is ran in a way to mimic academic outputs as much as possible) and apply some arithmetic to establish genetic affinity and Admixture probability.
We can see how falsehoods can be displayed.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
What would you say the implications of this paper are on how we interpret aDNA research, going forward? From what I have seen, most aDNA papers use multiple methods to assess ancestry (e.g. PCA, ADMIXTURE, haplogroups, etc.), but the PCA charts do make up a large proportion of the visual illustrations. Are those to be considered unreliable or misleading now?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Intelligent thought out replies welcome whether observations comments or critiques.
A proper critique goes beyond logical fallacies like ridicule and character assassination, which offer nothing of value, and examines materials such as a study's data, methodology, and charts paying attention to falsification, replicable results, and other science criterion.
Attack or defense of PCA based on other sources or personal experience invited.
Wikipedia reports that the scientist behind this paper, Dr. Eran Elhaik, has run into hot water for supporting the "Khazar hypothesis" of European Jewish origins. Not that it refutes what he has to say about PCA analyses, but that might be why the troll thinks his involvement automatically discredits anything he has to say.
And, FWIW, while I don't agree with the claim that European Jews are predominantly descended from Central Asian Khazars, the more popular narrative that they're largely of Levantine descent has never sat well with me. Anecdotally, most Jewish people of European heritage that I've seen look like ordinary Europeans, including one boy I knew from middle school who was even paler and blonder than the Nazis' "Aryan" ideal. If it weren't for all the genetic studies claiming a Levantine origin for them, I would have thought Jewish people in Europe were for the most part native Europeans who converted to Judaism, not Palestinian transplants. If anything, the "Arab" Palestinians probably have more ancient Hebrew ancestry than the lily-pale European Jews who founded the modern Israeli nation.
posted
And, FWIW, while I don't agree with the claim that European Jews are predominantly descended from Central Asian Khazars, the more popular narrative that they're largely of Levantine descent has never sat well with me. Anecdotally, most Jewish people of European heritage that I've seen look like ordinary Europeans,
Why? All people come from somewhere. Heck,the Roma are genetically suppose to be related to South Asians who migrated to Europe a millennium ago,so what makes the Khazar hypothesis anymore controversial?
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
| IP: Logged |
What would you say the implications of this paper are on how we interpret aDNA research, going forward? From what I have seen, most aDNA papers use multiple methods to assess ancestry (e.g. PCA, ADMIXTURE, haplogroups, etc.), but the PCA charts do make up a large proportion of the visual illustrations. Are those to be considered unreliable or misleading now?
There are two layers
One is hard data genetic markers such as haplogroups and autosomal DNA
The second layer are the analysis methods and programs which categorize, interpret and compare this hard data (PCA, Admixture)
______________________
If you have the hard data such as the haplogroup or by sampling the DNA of an ancient individual you you might might note modern people who have that same genetic marker and it's frequency in certain populations
But the flaws discussed in this article pertain to the second layer These various methods of interpreting the hard data that may be done on computer but are based on categorization assumptions that the program is following
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Why? All people come from somewhere. Heck,the Roma are genetically suppose to be related to South Asians who migrated to Europe a millennium ago,so what makes the Khazar hypothesis anyway controversial?
Again, anecdotally speaking, most people of European Jewish heritage that I've seen look run-of-the-mill European to me, neither Southwest Asian like the ancient Hebrews nor Central Asian like the Khazars.
As for why the Khazar hypothesis is controversial, I don't think it necessarily has antisemitic implications (if anything, insisting that European Jews aren't legitimately White is what I've seen the neo-Nazis do), but it does seem that a lot of European Jews with Zionist sympathies seem very invested in tying their ancestry to the "Holy Land" and don't want to hear that their ancestors came from anywhere else, whether in Europe or Central Asia. They have the same desire for Hebrew ancestry as the Black Hebrew Israelites.
posted
If someone was a Khazar or if they were a modern Nigerian or German and they had 5% ancestry of ancient Israelites you would not be able to tell by looking. Even if it was 50% you could not tell by looking
The religious line of descent of Jews goes by the gender of one parent only then if following this rule the descendants of the group could maintain their ancestral line but it could become tinier and tinier in biological percentage as time goes on especially if they are settled in a diasporic location as a minority And even in a converted population if would be likely that when they were converting they were also intermixing with some of the people converting them
But biology is meaningless in determining who or who is not following the law and customs of a religion
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: As for why the Khazar hypothesis is controversial, I don't think it necessarily has antisemitic implications (if anything, insisting that European Jews aren't legitimately White is what I've seen the neo-Nazis do), but it does seem that a lot of European Jews with Zionist sympathies seem very invested in tying their ancestry to the "Holy Land" and don't want to hear that their ancestors came from anywhere else, whether in Europe or Central Asia. They have the same desire for Hebrew ancestry as the Black Hebrew Israelites.
This is an honest question -- you say the ancient Hebrews would have looked "southwest asian", but in your artwork you depict the ancient Egyptians as black "sub-saharan" africans (for lack of a better term), and according to the Bible the ancient Hebrews could not be distinguished from the ancient Egyptians in regards to appearance. Were you aware of this?
* EDIT: The Bible also says Joseph took Mary and baby Jesus to hide in Egypt at one point. How could someone with a "southwest asian" phenotype hide amongst these black africans?
MATTHEW 2:13-14
"13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:"
The Bible also says the ancient Hebrews heavily intermarried with the ancient Egyptians. The Hebrew nation was birthed in ancient Egypt. Only 70 Hebrews entered into Egypt, but the Bible says after 430 years, 600,000 Hebrew men left Egypt (not including women and children), with christian websites estimating a total population of about 2.4 million Hebrews leaving Egypt.
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
@tazarah we have the genetic results of both ancient egyptians and ancient canaanites and they are quite similar to each other and none were "black" or similar to any population in sub-saharan africa. Also a "black" phenotype wouldn't make sense in regards to the environnement in which both of these populations evolved.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
@Antalas
1. That comment was directed @ BrandonP.
2. Aren't you the same person who got caught telling multiple lies, and demonstrating that you didn't know the most basic things about Moorish history in this thread a little over a month ago?:
2. Aren't you the same person who got caught telling multiple lies, and demonstrating that you didn't know the most basic things about Moorish history in this thread a little over a month ago?:
With that being said, I'm not interested in any dialogue with people like yourself who lie, and continue to lie after getting caught in lies.
Honesty is not expected from you.
Where do you see me "telling multiple lies" ? I actually completely debunked your claims and exposed your total ignorance on the subject and of course your total dishonesty. And ok you can stay in denial if you want and live in your illusion of ancient canaanites and egyptians looking like nigerians XD
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
@antalas
1. You said Moors were never slaves. I provided sources to show they were, then you lied and claimed you never said it by repackaging your claims and conflating Moors with Moriscos, when I never even brought up or mentioned or Moriscos (even though I subsequently proved Moriscos were enslaved as well, after you brought them up).
2. You said Moors never set foot in america and appealed to a mandate that said Moors were not allowed in america. I provided sources to show that they did, and that they were also slaves in the americas, and I also provided a link to an article where a reputable historian said that the mandate you referenced was largely ignored by slave traders.
I even included screenshots of your lies/contradictory statements just in case you tried to go back and edit your comments.
For example:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Here is just one of many examples of antalas lying his ass off and trying to gaslight after getting debunked and proven wrong:
*** This is antalas on 8/8/2022 saying that no Moriscos were ever enslaved, and that they only got expelled.
*** Now after being shown historical documentation that proved him dead wrong, here is antalas a couple of hours ago (8/11/22) changing his argument, and lying about what he originally said.
Now he's saying he did acknowledge the fact that Moriscos got enslaved before their expulsion, which completely contradicts his original claim from 8/8/22.
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
| IP: Logged |
1. You said Moors were never slaves. I provided sources to show they were, then you lied and claimed you never said it by repackaging your claims and conflating Moors with Moriscos, when I never even brought up or mentioned or Moriscos (even though I subsequently proved Moriscos were enslaved as well, after you brought them up).
2. You said Moors never set foot in america and appealed to a mandate that said Moors were not allowed in america. I provided sources to show that they did, and that they were also slaves in the americas, and I also provided a link to an article where a reputable historian said that the mandate you referenced was largely ignored by slave traders.
I even included screenshots of your lies/contradictory statements just in case you tried to go back and edit your comments.
For example:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Here is just one of many examples of antalas lying his ass off and trying to gaslight after getting debunked and proven wrong:
*** This is antalas on 8/8/2022 saying that no Moriscos were ever enslaved, and that they only got expelled.
*** Now after being shown historical documentation that proved him dead wrong, here is antalas a couple of hours ago (8/11/22) changing his argument, and lying about what he originally said.
Now he's saying he did acknowledge the fact that Moriscos got enslaved before their expulsion, which completely contradicts his original claim from 8/8/22.
I already answered :
"You implied that both moors and moriscos got massively enslaved and sent to America. I posted papers showing that no such thing ever occured. You then starting to lie about some claims I apparently made like "moors were never slaves" and I then exposed your lies and lack of historical knowledge since you didn't even know who moriscos were ...you also avoided a paper dedicated to the problem of moriscos and moors in America calling it "irrelevant text".
Now since you don't really have anything consistent you play on some little details because I haven't been enough explicit (which is my mistake since I assumed you knew at least some stuff about moriscos but apparently no)."
I said moriscos never got enslaved (or voluntarily like you claimed) except a ridiculous low amount of them after some rebellions which shouldn't even be explicited since that's common sense if you had at least a minimum of historical knowledge on that period. Like I said and showed almost all of them got expelled not enslaved.
Secondly you lied about me claiming I said moors never got enslaved and I posted quotes clearly demonstrating that if there ever was moors/moriscos in America their numbers was surely very low and the spanish state was continuously working against their presence there that's why the state didn't and couldn't send "moorish slaves" there. I showed you that you and the author of your article should be careful too since finding reports of "moros" "moriscos" is not necessarily evidence of the presence of such people there since it could also designate people who clearly had nothing to do with moors/moriscos of the Old World.
I literally posted a whole paper on the subject which you avoided because it contradicted your point. The way those AAs cringe group like hebrew israelites and "moorish" americans are dishonest and disingenuous is baffling. Here tazarah is trying to legitimate the claims of some complexed AAs because of a tale about a few "moors" who got lost on the coast of virginia ...
You guys are west africans who got sold by west africans and then shipped to america you have absolutely nothing to do with either moors, egyptians or israelites. You guys out there in america are lucky you're only dealing with latinos and whites because you can be sure you wouldn't survive one day surrounded by north africans.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
@Antalas,
You're continuining to lie and hoping that typing a wall of text will somehow redeem you.
I was only talking about Moors. I never brought up Moriscos, you did -- and you tried to conflate them with the Moors. You can even see in the screenshots I specifically say "Moors" and you respond by bringing up "Morsiscos" as a strawman to deflect.
You said they were never enslaved originally, then after being shown sources you changed it to "some of them were enslaved" when you originally said none of them were enslaved.
I literally posted screenshots of you saying that and contradicting yourself.
You also originally said Moriscos were forbidden from settling in america and that only north africans from the canary islands were sent to america as slaves. That statement of yours can also be seen in the same screenshot(s). Now you're saying there were Moriscos in america but at low numbers?
Which is it, liar? You can't even get your story straight.
I'm not going to derail Tukuler's thread by repeatedly pointing out your lies and dishonesty.
I didn't even finish reading your comment in it's entirety.
You are clearly a lying pseudo who is butthurt and hates historical facts, hence, your constant trolling of this website.
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
| IP: Logged |
You're continuining to lie and hoping that typing a wall of text will somehow redeem you.
I was only talking about Moors. I never brought up Moriscos, you did -- and you tried to conflate them with the Moors.
You said they were never enslaved originally, then after being shown sources you changed it to "some of them were enslaved" when you originally said none of them were enslaved.
I literally posted screenshots of you saying that and contradicting yourself.
You also originally said Moriscos were forbidden from settling in america and that only north africans from the canary islands were sent to america as slaves. That statement of yours can also be seen in the same screenshot(s) Now you're saying there were Moriscos in america but at low numbers?
Which is it, liar?
I'm not going to derail Tukuler's thread by repeatedly pointing out your lies and dishonesty.
I didn't even finish reading your comment in it's entirety.
You are clearly a lying pseudo who is butthurt and hates historical facts, hence, your constant trolling of this website.
Seems like you forgot the point you were trying to make, this is what you posted :
quote: "In 711 A.D., the Moors crossed the Straits of Gibraltar and began their conquests on the Spanish peninsula. It was during these conquests that many were captured and their descendants sold to the slave traders who brought them in shackles to America."
"Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager, page 4 (2006) University of Pennsylvania Press
again : "CROSSED THE STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR" and "SPANISH PENINSULA" and who are the descendents of those moors in the peninsula ? That's right moriscos but you didn't know about this obviously. So you were indeed making a reference to moriscos not moors from Morocco.
And yes moriscos were forbidden from settling in America I posted the official spanish sources and showed how the spanish crown deployed all its forces to ensure they didn't settle there and even brought many of them back to spain after some managed to settled there illegally. I also showed that many people known as "moros" or "moriscos" in America had in fact nothing to do with proper moors or moriscos but of course you called my source "irrelevant text" since you can't bear the truth.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
@Antalas
Yes, that original source I posted said the Moors crossed the strait and spanish peninsula, and the last source I posted talks about Moors being in america.
Not Moriscos or any of the other BS you are trying to conflate so that you can cover up the fact that you got caught lying and being ignorant of actual Moorish history.
"Who were the Moors?
In grade school, the Moors are often mentioned in passing to refer to Muslim influences of early Spain. Yet, there is much more to the Moorish story, which expands into the Americas after colonization in the 16th century and up to the present day."
Yes, that original source I posted said the Moors crossed the strait and spanish peninsula, and the last source I posted talks about Moors being in america.
Not Moriscos or any of the other BS you are trying to conflate so that you can cover up the fact that you got caught lying and being ignorant of actual Moorish history.
"Who were the Moors?
In grade school, the Moors are often mentioned in passing to refer to Muslim influences of early Spain. Yet, there is much more to the Moorish story, which expands into the Americas after colonization in the 16th century and up to the present day."
there is literally more than 700 years between the cross of the strait and the discovery of America by Colombus at that time period the remnants of the earlier iberian muslim population was known as moriscos.
Moors in the context of the iberian peninsula didn't necessarily only designate north africans but other muslim communities too :
quote:By then, the idea of Moors had spread across Western Europe. “Moor” came to mean anyone who was Muslim or had dark skin; occasionally, Europeans would distinguish between “blackamoors” and “white Moors.”
so mawali, saqaliba, black slaves, berbers, arabs could all be described as "moros" and that's why for example spaniards also called the muslims of the philipines "moro" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_peoplePosts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
@Antalas
Matthew Helmer is an upcoming Ph.D graduate, and also an archaeologist. He has taught anthropology, geography and art history at the University level.
He is the creator of this course, and he applies an Iberian/Spanish context to the Moors that existed in the americas (so does the original source I referenced).
Stop posting the same sh*t again I already debunked it the "moors" your helmer is talking about in Virginia were in fact west africans :
quote:Virginia’s first Africans arrived at Point Comfort, on the southern tip of the Virginia peninsula, late in August 1619. There, “20. and odd Negroes” or more from the English ship White Lion were sold in exchange for food and some were transported to Jamestown, where they were sold again. Three or four days later another English ship, the Treasurer, arrived in Virginia, where its captain sold two or three additional Africans. Historians have long believed these Africans to have come to Virginia from the Caribbean, but Spanish records suggest they had been captured in a Spanish-controlled area of West Central Africa. They probably were Kimbundu-speaking people, and many of them may have had at least some knowledge of Catholicism. While aboard the São João Bautista bound for Mexico, they were stolen by the White Lion and the Treasurer.
Also he talks about "muslim influences" like with neo-moorish architecture ...clearly we're not on the same level I post from diverse academic sources and he take his quotes from internet quiz and online "schools" lmao again stop pretending you know anything on the subject.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote: "In 711 A.D., the Moors crossed the Straits of Gibraltar and began their conquests on the Spanish peninsula. It was during these conquests that many were captured and their descendants sold to the slave traders who brought them in shackles to America."
"Delaware's Forgotten Folk: The Story of the Moors and Nanticokes" by C.A. Weslager, page 4 (2006) University of Pennsylvania Press
This is one of dumbest quotes I ever read, just sayin'
but let's get back the PCA's and their flaws
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Stop posting the same sh*t again I already debunked it the "moors" your helmer is talking about in Virginia were in fact west africans
Really? Because this is what Helmer says about the Moors in his course:
"The Moorish peoples, however, were regarded with disdain. The Spanish brought with them legends of Catholic saints who aided in the expulsion of Moorish Islam from Europe."
... there you go conflating different topics again, to cover your ass and save face by strawmanning.
Also he talks about "muslim influences" like with neo-moorish architecture ...clearly we're not on the same level I post from diverse academic sources and he take his quotes from internet quiz and online "schools" lmao again stop pretending you know anything on the subject.
I only used that article to show that the mandate which you said was responsible for Moors not being allowed in america, was largely ignored by slave traders -- which means that the Moors who you claim were not taken to the americas, actually were.
You didn't even know that, because if you did you wouldn't have even made mention of the mandate.
*** Furthermore, that quote you just attributed to the smithsonian article, IS NOT in that smithsonian article.
ROFL. What a lying pseudo.
Thanks for the screenshot of you falsely attributing quotes to sources.
Did you think no one was going to check or something?
Say what you want about my sources, at least I don't have to lie about sources to support my claims.
An online school like the one I've referenced would obviously be a major help to someone like you.
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Stop posting the same sh*t again I already debunked it the "moors" your helmer is talking about in Virginia were in fact west africans [/qb]
Really? Because this is what Helmer says about the Moors in his course:
"The Moorish peoples, however, were regarded with disdain. The Spanish brought with them legends of Catholic saints who aided in the expulsion of Moorish Islam from Europe."
... there you go conflating different topics again, to cover your ass and save face by strawmanning.
what does this have to do with America ? Read the rest of what he wrote.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: I only used that article to show that the mandate which you said was responsible for Moors not being allowed in america, was largely ignored by slave traders -- which means that the Moors who you claim were not taken to the americas, actually were.
You didn't even know that, because if you did you wouldn't have even made mention of the mandate.
*** Furthermore, that quote you just attributed to the smithsonian article, IS NOT in that smithsonian article.
ROFL. What a lying pseudo.
Thanks for the screenshot of you falsely attributing quotes to sources.
Did you think no one was going to check or something?
Say what you want about my sources, at least I don't have to lie about sources to support my claims.
An online school like the one I've referenced would obviously be a major help to someone like you. [/qb]
Seems like you didn't check it properly :
you simply had to click on his highlighted "first arrived in Virginia in 1619" so who's lying now ? Thanks.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
@Antalas
My point exactly; it's not on the page from the link I shared. It's a separate link with a separate author.
Where does that article; or the link it leads to, say that those enslaved africans from spanish controlled West Africa were "Moors", or even referred to as "Moors"?
It simply says they were muslims from west africa. 90% of the time you are conflating two completely different topics.
Even when you're not lying, you're still lying.
This is what you said -- but Helmer says nothing about Virginia on that link.
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Can we please get back to and stay focused on the actual topic which is neither Khazar percentage of Ashkenazim ancestry nor any of the various Moors from the original Alexandrian Greek Μαύρος/Mauros (means Negro/nigger in modern Greek) applied to ancient Mauretania (ie Morocco) to the Moros of the Philippines and everything in between.
Besides ad hominem personal bias against Elhaik, which does nothing to refute his work, anybody got any more on the PCA issues raised in his article which were addressed by only two posters in two posts.
posted
Heh! To be honest, I'm not that surprised. For the years that I've been reading genetic studies using PCA, I've noticed that the data can easily be skewed based on sampling size. Yet the experts are quick to make generalizations based on such findings. And now this finding on the method. Go figure!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic