My cousin is pretty much looking to marry a man who is a Christian and comes from a very traditional background, so she will be staying in Egypt with her friends family. Her friend is a Coptic Christian and has been living in the Usa for about 10 years (he is a citizen in case you are wondering).

The friend wants to match up my cousin with his brother who is looking to marry and live in the Usa together as one big family. Of course all depends on whether my cousin and her friends brother get along and then comes the rest.

My cousin is planning on staying for one month if things don't go good with her friends brother, but, if it does will extend her stay to 4 months.

My questions are... Just how conservative, traditional and so on are the Copts who come from the Southern part of Egypt? If my cousin should marry a Copt in Egypt... Does anyone have any experience or advice concerning how long or what circumstances will help the Coptic husband to come faster to the Usa? How do Copts from southern Egypt view the marriages of foreign women to local Copts? What problems can be expected from my cousin first getting to know her friends brother? What should she look out for or not do in order not to offend her friends family? How are Coptic men in terms of marriage to foreign women? (I mean if for example they marry an American woman... are they quick to get a divorce later on after getting citizenship... Don't mean to offend, but, that is a reality in life...)

I can't think of any other questions.... lol

Thanks and I hope to get a few responses soon.

Take care,

Your questions were very much interesting to me, as I am myself a Copt.

I hope I can give you a convenient answer:

Marriage bonds in Coptic Orthodoxy are one of the strongest in the world -without exaggerating. The Coptic church is so much conservative in this point, and people are so to an utmost degree.

There are lots of cases where Coptic couples want to separate but can’t find a way, because they are sticking to religious rules. They don’t dare to go against the church and have a civil divorce for example.

Many Copts are conservative as to traditional marriage. They would like a wife to spend the rest of life with, and they tend to think it over since no divorce is allowed and there would be only one wife in lifetime.

About getting a divorce after acquiring citizenship … for Copts that is very difficult thing to happen … again divorce is itself an ultimate sin …
But think of it like that … what if “I found a girl that is so great, sensitive and very close in thinking to my traditions … she loves me so much and she can help me settle in USA. She is very faithful and wants to stay by my side until death takes us apart, and she is just looking for traditional marriage life. What else can a man want?”

What a Coptic man wants from a foreign wife is to forget all about … “Honey … I don’t love you anymore … I have fallen in love with someone.”
Marital treason is an ultimate sin for Copts and Upper Egyptians in particular, and easterners in general. There are many stories about crimes of honor … a husband who got suspicious about his wife’s behaviors … etc.

The problems expected to emerge are merely cross-cultural … and I believe it will be to the minimal since your cousin lean to traditionalists.

One of the problems that may surface is the attempt of the Coptic young man to Copticize his wife. The Coptic Orthodox church is a very conservative rite. It traces the belief from St. Mark and Alexandria’s papal seat. So Copts belief their rite is the rightmost Christian belief. He will like to have his kids baptized according to Coptic tradition, educated and married as though and to frequent Coptic churches.
Generally, for Copts Catholics are more accepted than Protestants in marriage bonds … because the two churches are very close in faith.

If that Copt you mentioned is originally from Upper Egypt but his parents have been living in Cairo or Alex for ling time, matching the couples would be easier.
If he is still living in Upper (Southern) Egypt, there may be some problems related to the environment, education, level of thinking there.

Anyway, generally Copts tend to adapt fast in the United States, because there is no strong religious or cultural barriers … and they become so much successful.

These are the general guidelines … Other than that, you are still dealing with humans who differ from one person to another.

There is nothing that can help a Copt to come faster to the USA … it’s same procedures for all.

I heard this terrible story about Coptic couples that immigrated to the USA. The wife was very religious woman who frequent the church as an active member.
Once she became in the United States, they got realized how liberal the society is and that one can do anything he does … and she started cheating on her husband.
So the change of environment can really change people, specially those who did not have normal life experiences.

Sorry for my non-organized thoughts … I hope I succeeded to convey you what I had in mind.

The friends brother does indeed live in Southern Egypt... I believe the town is called Minieh (sorry if spelled wrong). My cousin has been warned by her friend that culturally Copts there are very conservative in thinking and in dress.

So, she is alittle prepared in that sense for what will be coming. The only thing I am worried about is how she will get to know her friends brother if women are not allowed in that part of Egypt to speak to a man if there is no chaperone... even, if you are in an open area she was told you must have another woman sitting by you in the company of a man.

Most of the Coptic friends family don't speak English, except for his brother, so they can talk about anything even if chaperoned in English, but, you know what I am trying to say. It is hard to speak freely with other people listening in... EVEN if they have no idea what you are saying. lol

Well, thank you again... Your viewpoints on Copts from Egypt marrying foreign women have eased my mind alittle bit.

There is need for any chaperone …
I have been in Menya last year … it’s a very beautiful place, especially at the corniche. I can send you a picture if you want. http://www.youregypt.com/eguide/destinations/upperegypt/menya/
The two can talk to each other in private … it is very possible. For example, a whole group can go to the corniche and then the couple leaves them for some time but remains at a visible distance.
A guaranteed solution is that they go to Kentucky in a cab or something and talk over there ... no body will ever mind it. Don’t get scared for the police car standing outside.

In terms of dresses … I believe Copts are less conservative than their Moslem countrymen. After all, females don’t have to weir headscarves.

I don’t believe the term very conservative is the correct word describing Copts; you will see very different angles here if you came.
If we became more specific … we can say Southerners (Copts be they or not) are more inflexible than northern Egyptians.

The problem with Upper Egypt is that it is less developed than northern Egypt thanks to the central policy over several decades. This has helped many already-existing phenomena spread, like the systematic revenge traditions … etc.

The article was on the terrible incident at the following link: http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2002%20News%20archives/August%202002%20News%20Items/22%20of%20a%20family%20killed%20in%20Egypt%20in%20a%20revenge%20attack.htm

There is a very interesting article also on that page: http://www.cairotimes.com/news/vendetta.html

Raymound,most Egyptian women traditionally cover their head with a ta'ra,and most Egyptian Muslims don't really make women walk about with hijaabs or even the dreaded burka like in Saudi Arabian countries. More devout Egyptian Muslims might,but the majority of more traditional[balady] Egyptians don't really require it.

One thing that is noticable in the villages of mixed Coptics and Muslims is that most of them tend to have lower divorce rates. Yes,in Southern Egypt there are often mixed villages with Christain and Muslim Fellahin that are no different in their job status.

Most of the blood feuds between clans in Upper Egypt have been against the Arab tribes there like the Hawara and Fellahin. Both these groups hate each other very much with a deep sided passion. I know all about this since my family comes from rural villages in both Luxor and Aswan.

The Sa3eadi,Fellahin,and other have endured some very bad things over the years,and nobody in the goverment has really cared. People wonder why incidents like El Kosheh occur and why the recent violence in other regions like Sohag occur. The answer is really simply due to the fact that many Arab tribes have came into places like Sohag,Girga,and even Luxor and treated the indigenous Fellahin there like trash. The raiding,pillaging,and other occurences have been going on for centuries without a notice from the goverment in the north.

The problem is not simply as simple as it seems because the Egyptian police in Saeed are often known to beat the livingh day lights out of each and every Fellahin or resident to get what they want.

I have heard about the feuding... Sohag being the worst example of it... The pictures I saw were horrifying. I really can't comment further as I really don't understand the origins of this...

It's good to know that single men and women can hold conversations with some privacy in the South and that Copts are not as conservative as their Muslim counterparts.

I myself was thinking of going to Egypt too, but, later in the year. I think many visitors to Egypt go straight on the "tourist road". (pyramids, pharoahs and the like... and there is nothing wrong with it... but...) They completely forget the Christian heritage of Egypt.

But, before I go... I really want to learn Arabic well as I want to explore the smaller towns in the South.

Ausar... that is eye opening what you posted. I didn't realized the problem went that deep with the feuding.

Well, that is enough from me for now...

I have been very busy lately so haven't had time to come online...but, now I got some free time to ask something related to the this topic I started.

I wanted to know how easy or hard it would be to break off an engagement to a male Egyptian Copt from Southern Egypt? I want the opinions on this from both perspectives, whether the female looking to break off the engagment to the Egyptian Copt is Egyptian herself or a foreigner???

I guess the reason for this question is in order to know if in the future should my cousin at first agree to an engagement with her friends brother
after meeting and getting to know him in seeing they are compatible and that there is love, only to later find out something about her fiance that seriously causes her to want to break it off.

I know this may sound like I am focusing on the negative BEFORE they even have had the chance to meet... but, I guess in my mind I just am looking at the situation from every angle.

If the engagement was official in a church … there are certain official measures to be taken upon break-ups … but again it is very rare that problems erupt from such things.

The topic is adopted at http://www.youregypt.com/issue2/topic.htm

From my side, I’d simply summarize the common steps in the following, taking into consideration the similarity with Muslim marriages:

• The couple gets to know each other.
  
• The couple agreed on unofficial engagement, or “wearing engagement rings.” This is usually done by a small –sometimes big- engagement party. The party is financed by the parents of the bride-to-be (not the groom-to-be).
  
• Couples spend wonderful time of engagement, exchange presents at certain occasions, and prepare for their future apartment/house, sharing expenses.
  
• Few months before marriage, an official engagement takes place at church. The bride must wear a non-white engagement dress while the groom must wear a suite that is different than the one he is planning to wear on marriage ceremony.
  An engagement contract is signed, by which there would be legal responsibility on both parties in case of breakup.
  
• Marriage is done at some church. Bride wears white wedding dress and bridegroom wears a different suite than the engagement’s.
  Contract is signed before the ceremony, with two witnesses –usually the eldest of each side- signing.
  
• The newlywed couple goes to some hotel hall for partying.
  
• They leave home or travel somewhere for the honeymoon.
  
• Marriage contract is registered after several days by the government.
  

By the way, which country are you from?

------------------

Raymon www.youregypt.com

The typical marriage of Copts as well as fellow Egyptians goes like this:
Befriending … engagement and marriage … Some of those who get older try to find someone to set up a marriage with some girl of good reputation.

I tell you what is the most important thing for looking a wife, in general terms: Is this wife ready for really lifetime commitments … is she gonna be faithful no matter how much their love goes down. Would their children keep the Coptic faith and be raised up as if in Egypt?

It is not a must for a Copt to marry Coptic women, though preferred. And when you said you are Christian … do you really frequent church? Which faith do you belong to?
I advise you to try to approach him from religion … tell him you want to attend the service in a Coptic church, of course if you really want so.

Some men just want a normal life … with boring marriage relationship …

Not sure if I put things right here … since I don’t know about other backgrounds that only you can know of.

… Good Luck

To answer your question finally... My cousin is 31 and so is the brother of my friend... Does this makes a big difference as to a possible marriage?

......

Ok, continuing on this topic of Engagements/Marriage in Upper Egypt. I will be a little devil and get into some more questions on a "what if this happened?" type of format...

What would happen if say for instance a Coptic man or woman who is engaged and is from Upper Egypt has a boyfriend or girlfriend in secret and it is discovered (whether or not they have been intimate in this relationship) by a family member or friend of the family and word gets out of this situation... ???

What would happen in Upper Egypt in such a case?

I hear so many cases of this happening from my Egyptian friends here that Copts who have gotten engaged in Egypt and live abroad will have a boyfriend or girlfriend in secret outside of Egypt, then it gets discovered by someone in the local Egyptian community and all heck breaks loose...

Basically I want to know what happens in this case for those still living in Egypt and those Copts living abroad...

I guess you can say I am in a questioning Devil's Advocate mood today... LOL