quote:

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Originally posted by Nefertiti:
Hi Debbie,

I can only say that you would have to be able to read and understand Arabic (possibly even as much as the Arabic of the Quran, seeing as some native Arabic speakers don't even understand it), or be a Muslim with faith in Allah and understanding of Islam and the Quran to know that it really does not mean "Beat" in the English sense of the word.

From what i understand of Arabic translations, the translators do the best they can when trying to help us non arabic readers to understand the Quran (May Allah bless them for their efforts). For this reason, translations are not considered the words of Allah and we as Muslims are strongly encouraged to learn Arabic so we can gain a better understanding. Even native speakers are encouraged to learn the Arabic of the Quran as it is different to the Arabic that they are speaking and understand now...... similar i would say to English of today against old English or maybe even latin (i'm not 100% sure)

It is generally agreed that this is where some misconceptions of Islam come from, as western scholars, who don't take the time to learn Arabic, try to make judgements of Islam, based on English or other translations.

Trust me Debbie when i say that Islam DOES NOT condone wife beating

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Nef, I trust that you believe it says that.

I chose to move this into a new topic, even though I'm copying a post from the "What should I expect of Egypt" thread by Lee Jones, because I'm confused by this issue and wish someone can explain it to me.

If there are NO English words to say whatever the Koran says about beating a wife... or rather the word they used DOES NOT mean BEAT and there are NO OTHER English words to describe what the writer meant, tell me how will someone like you and me or any other person that was not raised to know Arabic, (our vocabulary is based in English and that is how we will always relate to any language) ever understand?

I think what you said here; "or be a Muslim with faith in Allah and understanding of Islam and the Quran to know that it really does not mean "Beat" in the English sense of the word." says it all. You are believing and having "faith" in something someone else (a scholar) is telling you. Right?

If there is no English word to describe what they mean, then all you and I can do is take the scholars word for it, yes? Or no? All of a sudden this religion, in the true sense it was meant, becomes ONLY for those that can really (and I mean REALLY) understand Arabic.

Maybe, because I don't know any other languages very well, the concept of understanding words that have NO English meaning at all, escapes me, and someone can explain that to me.... I hope.

Until then, I see what you are doing as taking translations by scholars, as Gods word. I'm NOT (do not misunderstand me here) criticizing that issue at all. Where my criticism is (if you want to look at it as criticism), is that I believe ONE of the major criticisms of Christianity is that our Bible has been translated (by scholars) from the original, and you don't think we should buy into that. Now how does it differ that I read and believe a translated Bible, and you read and believe a translated Koran, but yours is real and mine isn't?

I hope and pray this doesn't end up in some horrible heated debate between Muslims and Christians, as that isn't what I want. And if it does, I'll be the first to stop posting in it, but if someone wants to try to explain in English words what I'm missing here, I'd be interested to hear it.

Translators find the nearest word they can to one that may not have a literal translation (but I do not believe that line really). Interpetors of Allah's word, do the same. Which one of them is correct?

Also, many Moslems cannot read or write Arabic in any form (in the south this relates to most women and many men over the age of 30). They are dependent on what they learn in schools and from their families.

Those that have studied the Koran in depth now say that 'scourge' (or whatever euphamisms are used) does not mean 'beat' - but to the scholars that teach in many Koran classes, that is exactly what it means - and consequently what a lot of men actually do because they believe they have been given the right to do it. Who is to say that they have not?

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:
Nef, I trust that you believe it says that.

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I can only smile

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

If there are NO English words to say whatever the Koran says about beating a wife... or rather the word they used DOES NOT mean BEAT and there are NO OTHER English words to describe what the writer meant, tell me how will someone like you and me or any other person that was not raised to know Arabic, (our vocabulary is based in English and that is how we will always relate to any language) ever understand?

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I'm also trying to understand how (when i am able to read and understand Arabic properly Insha'Allah) i will be able to if there are no English equivalents for some words. I am already starting understand by the fact that when i sometimes ask for a translation of the usual everyday Arabic words, people are not able to explain with ONE English word, but have to give me a bigger explanation like by saying it means X with Y added and also a little of Z. Confused? Me too sometimes

When you read the English translation of the Quran you will frequently see that many of the Ayahs (verses) have words added in brackets, these are not Allah's words, but words the translator has used to try and give a better understanding of the overall meaning.

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

I think what you said here; "or be a Muslim with faith in Allah and understanding of Islam and the Quran to know that it really does not mean "Beat" in the English sense of the word." says it all. You are believing and having "faith" in something someone else (a scholar) is telling you. Right?

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No, i don't have faith in Scholars in the way you mean.

You have to try and look at Islam as whole, you can't read any one verse or chapter in the Quran on its own, you have to consider many different factors, like when it was revealed, why, sayings of the Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him) that give clarification etc etc.

If a scholar gives an opinion it is a Muslims duty to check that opinion to the best of his/her ability. Of course there are some scholars that are known to be trustworthy and whose interpretations are generally found to be right (Allahu Allam), but as a Muslim you believe that each individual will be judged as to his/her actions and so we have to ensure that we don't follow blindly.

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

If there is no English word to describe what they mean, then all you and I can do is take the scholars word for it, yes? Or no?

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No.

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

All of a sudden this religion, in the true sense it was meant, becomes ONLY for those that can really (and I mean REALLY) understand Arabic.

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No, because not everyone WILL be able to REALLY understand Arabic. Islam is for everyone. Like i said there ARE some scholars that are trustworthy, but we have to use our logic and own judgement too.

There are more than enough ways to get to the truth if you can not speak, read arabic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

Maybe, because I don't know any other languages very well, the concept of understanding words that have NO English meaning at all, escapes me, and someone can explain that to me.... I hope..

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Me too

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

Until then, I see what you are doing as taking translations by scholars, as Gods word.

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One example: When i read books on Islamic subjects, i always look out for things that don't correspond to my own understanding of Islam, if the writer is laying down radical opinions, or things that just don't sit well in my mind, then i question it and i look for other sources to prove or disprove what they have said. That is not taking the opinion of some Scholar as God's word. Not in my opinion anyway.

A good writer shouldn't just state his/her opinion, for me he/she has to prove to me why what he/she says is correct. Proof from the Quran, Hadith, history and common sense!

Also i should add that there are some basic things in Islam that you don't need to speak Arabic to be able to understand.... if some text in the Quran does not correspond to these basics then you straight away know there is a problem.

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

I'm NOT (do not misunderstand me here) criticizing that issue at all. Where my criticism is (if you want to look at it as criticism), is that I believe ONE of the major criticisms of Christianity is that our Bible has been translated (by scholars) from the original, and you don't think we should buy into that. Now how does it differ that I read and believe a translated Bible, and you read and believe a translated Koran, but yours is real and mine isn't?

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My goal is to read the Quran in its original form... ARABIC. It is not possible to do that with the Bible as far as i know (i may be wrong). I think one of the main criticisms of the translated bible is that it has additions and omissions, the Quran doesn't.

One thing i can vaguely remember concerning the Bible and translation is the issue of the meaning of Messiah and it's translation from one language to another and how it all got messed up.... i can't 100% remember what the issue was, maybe someone else does.

As a Muslim we believe in all the books revealed by Allah/God anyway..... we just don't believe in some of the Bible of today, like the work of "Saint" Paul. Many of the stories of the Bible are also in the Quran.

If i was a Christian, i would probably try to read the Bible in conjuction with history books so that i could work out what is wrong and what is right and to gain a better understanding of the meanings. I'm sure that some of the meanings applied when the bible was written have changed today. I do the same with the Quran and it has helped me to understand somethings a whole lot better

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:

I hope and pray this doesn't end up in some horrible heated debate between Muslims and Christians, as that isn't what I want. And if it does, I'll be the first to stop posting in it, but if someone wants to try to explain in English words what I'm missing here, I'd be interested to hear it.

Thanks

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I hope this thread stays peaceful too.... there is no point in getting heated.

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Who is to say that they have not?
[This message has been edited by Luxorlover (edited 24 June 2004).]

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There are many ahadith that tell of men who were damned for being violent to women, so that may be one way in which I can say they are wrong.

But on a tangent, you make it sound like Islam is the only religion with apparent sexism. The fact is Judaism and Christianity also give men rights that are more universal and less fair. I always say this: You can't compare Islam to the united states or Britain. You can only compare Islam to other religions.

In Buddhism, which is a non-theistic phylosophy, a woman cannot attain enlightenment. She has to be re-born as a man first !! That is the ultimate in sexism.

Apart from scourging (sorry to digress) I went to a mosque in Cairo to pray on a cold wet Friday in winter. The men were inside the mosque, warm and comfortable. (It was a long service because the sheikh had a lot to say). The women? We were herded into a nearby garage that was full of cars in various states of repair. There were big holes in the roof and the rain poured through onto those below. First time I have ever envied a man his comforts.

Back to translations. How can you learn to read that form of Arabic when you have had to learn from a teacher who has translated things for you to learn from? Unless you are native born and have lived with the language since birth I do not see how it can be done. Even then there are misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
I once (in my Pagan days) did a study on "when did God become a man?" All the truly ancient Gods are actually Goddesses. Sexism is inherent in most religions since people stopped worshiping the earth mothers. It just shows up more in Islam than in some of the others

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Allah (SWT) is not a male or a female... I think all Muslims are supposed to believe this.

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:

Apart from scourging (sorry to digress) I went to a mosque in Cairo to pray on a cold wet Friday in winter. The men were inside the mosque, warm and comfortable. (It was a long service because the sheikh had a lot to say). The women? We were herded into a nearby garage that was full of cars in various states of repair. There were big holes in the roof and the rain poured through onto those below. First time I have ever envied a man his comforts.

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Women are given the right not to have to go to the Mosque to pray, in fact the best place for a woman to pray is in the home. On the other hand it is more rewarding for a man to pray in a Mosque than his home.... that is why Mosques give bigger priority to Male spaces.

Not saying that i agree you should have been shoved in a garage though

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:

Back to translations. How can you learn to read that form of Arabic when you have had to learn from a teacher who has translated things for you to learn from?

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I'm not sure what you mean here.... if you want to learn to read arabic you should learn the alphabet first .... then you can read words yourself and obtain meanings from dictionaries and such i guess. I think arabic is based on root words and that can help with understanding where words come from and real meanings and such.... unfortunately, i'm still on alif baa taa thaa

From what i have been told, Arabic is such a rich language that English words can not do it justice..... one word in Arabic can almost replace a sentence in English....I stress this is what i have been told and is what gives me strong desire to learn it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:

Unless you are native born and have lived with the language since birth I do not see how it can be done. Even then there are misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

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People learn new languages all the time so there must be a way Never think of Arabic as impossible.... you are a Muslim so it is one of your duties to try and learn arabic. Many converts have done it in the past and many will do it in the future

Forgive me for saying this I do not see any evidence of a consensus in the Muslim world condeming this.

They also indulge in this intellectual debate whilst the women carry the bruises.

It would be really helpful if all Muslims could unite on this issue, one way or the other, so everyone knew what they were getting themselves involved in. But I suspect this is impossible because the traditions of many of these cultures have influenced the understanding of the meaning of the verse. Also abusive men will chose to interupt it their way no matter what.

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
I do not read Arabic but I do speak it enough to get by and I understand much of what is said to me. BUT I am still dependent on translations of the words to learn them. (Big boys rely on this when they teach small children bad words to shout to tourists telling them it means Hello). Yes you will refer to a dictionary but it is still an interpetation. (Look how many different interpetations there are of every word in the English language. Arabic is even richer. Scholars cannot agree what the meaning is of some texts. How can we, as non Arabic thinkers (and I believe you have to be able to think in Arabic before understanding comes) ever hope to achieve this?

That does not mean that it is futile to try. It just means that it is going to take a whole lifetime - just as the scholars have devoted their lives to such study and got nowhere nearer what the texts really mean.

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quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:
Whilst you have this intelectual debate going on there are men out there who totally believe that Allah give them the right to beat there wives.

Forgive me for saying this I do not see any evidence of a consensus in the Muslim world condeming this.

They also indulge in this intellectual debate whilst the women carry the bruises.

It would be really helpful if all Muslims could unite on this issue, one way or the other, so everyone knew what they were getting themselves involved in. But I suspect this is impossible because the traditions of many of these cultures have influenced the understanding of the meaning of the verse. Also abusive men will chose to interupt it their way no matter what.

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Well there are also men of every religion beating up their wives.

Whether the Koran means men to beat their wives or not is academic - but while many men believe that is what it says they will continue to beat their wives.

The solution to this problem is educating the masses. It is a very long process.

In the meantime, women should try to associate themselves with non ignorant men...

As this is not explained by the Qur'an we then have to follow the Qur’anic advice and turn to the Prophet for an explanation of what was meant and he said that it should be done in a non-violent manner, it should be done with something like a handkerchief, a miswak (one of those small sticks used to clean teeth with), it should never be one that causes any physical injury like bleeding, and it should not be done on her face. However the Prophet did not like the idea of this and never used it when he had problems with his wives. If this last resort of one hit in this way, does not resolve the marital problems then the couple should call on one member of her family and one of his to try to resolve the matter through arbitration. If this does not work then the husband may divorce his wife.

This is just a quick summary of everything I have read on the subject. If you check out these links you will find much more detailed explanations: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22216&dgn=4

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Originally posted by lee jones:
And I would also add that I don't know of any muslim men who beat their wives, not even with a toothbrush or a handkerchief, but I have known lots of non-religious men to do it. This is just my personal experience...I am not denying there is abuse in all circles, of course.

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Was going to say the same thing but thought the better of it because people would tread on it, I don't know any wife abusers personally either, but I do know some husband abusers ... and they are Muslim. And as Monica said, if you want to know what you are buying into just know the man a bit better.

Because they are taught incorrect or disputed things, many Moslem men are misinformed not only about bashing their wives but also about circumscising their daughters. Now there really is nothing in the Koran about that but many think that there is and truly believe that is has been ordered.

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Can I put another log on the fire?

Because they are taught incorrect or disputed things, many Moslem men are misinformed not only about bashing their wives but also about circumscising their daughters. Now there really is nothing in the Koran about that but many think that there is and truly believe that is has been ordered.

Why is there not more effort put into re-education.

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I am sure that the churches and the mosques could do something about it. (It is prevalent in both religions).

quote:

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
I am sure that the churches and the mosques could do something about it. (It is prevalent in both religions).

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* deep breath *

I'm treading in dangerous waters here, I know, but please believe that I'm not being mean-spirited. It's just that this often comes to my mind when I hear people, usually Muslims, say things like that. To paraphrase, they may say "Well Christians are guilty of it too, why associate it with Islam."

On the surface this seems like a fair statement, but when I give it more thought, it seems to me the difference is that Muslim [insert crime here] believe they're doing it with the authority & sanction, if not out & out command of Allah, whereas you don't hear of many Christian [insert crime here] saying Jesus wanted them to. Yes, McVeigh killed innocent people in Oklahoma, but he did it because he hated the government. He never said God told him to kill all government employees.

That's why I would think it would be futile for a church to intervene in this bad behavior, because, say in the case of spousal abuse, I've never heard of anyone in this day and time say the Bible gives him the authority to do it.

Any thoughts??

*** Edited to say that I misunderstood LL's post. I thought she was speaking of spousal abuse, not female mutilation. My apologies.

FGM is totally different from wife beating in this respect. It is condemed by senior figures, now if they did the same thing about wife beating then that tooo would slowly be irradicated.

quote:

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Originally posted by Carleen:
* deep breath *

I'm treading in dangerous waters here, I know, but please believe that I'm not being mean-spirited. It's just that this often comes to my mind when I hear people, usually Muslims, say things like that. To paraphrase, they may say "Well Christians are guilty of it too, why associate it with Islam."

On the surface this seems like a fair statement, but when I give it more thought, it seems to me the difference is that Muslim [insert crime here] believe they're doing it with the authority & sanction, if not out & out [b]command of Allah, whereas you don't hear of many Christian [insert crime here] saying Jesus wanted them to. Yes, McVeigh killed innocent people in Oklahoma, but he did it because he hated the government. He never said God told him to kill all government employees.

That's why I would think it would be futile for a church to intervene in this bad behavior, because, say in the case of spousal abuse, I've never heard of anyone in this day and time say the Bible gives him the authority to do it.

Any thoughts??

*** Edited to say that I misunderstood LL's post. I thought she was speaking of spousal abuse, not female mutilation. My apologies.

[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 25 June 2004).][/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by fridaies:
What does FMG stand for again?

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It is actually FGM Female Gential Mutilation.

This can range enourmously from removal of the skin around the clitorus, removal of the clitorus, removal of the lips and being sewn up. The later is the most dangerous as the woman has to split for sex and cut and resown for childbirth.

I think but have no actual facts for thsi that Egypt practises the former and Sudan and Ethopia practise the later. It is not a Muslim or Arab tradition but an African one. I suspect that is why there has been more unity about condeming it from the various religious authorities.

There was a thread on it here and if you search the net you will find loads more information.

quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:
It is actually FGM Female Gential Mutilation.

This can range enourmously from removal of the skin around the clitorus, removal of the clitorus, removal of the lips and being sewn up. The later is the most dangerous as the woman has to split for sex and cut and resown for childbirth.

I think but have no actual facts for thsi that Egypt practises the former and Sudan and Ethopia practise the later. It is not a Muslim or Arab tradition but an African one. I suspect that is why there has been more unity about condeming it from the various religious authorities.

There was a thread on it here and if you search the net you will find loads more information.

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You are right Jane, the latter (more dangerous) type is common in Africa. It is actually an ancient Egyptian habit, that's why it is so common regardless of people's religion. I heard that even in Saudi Arabia FGM is unheard of.

quote:

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
You are right Jane, the latter (more dangerous) type is common in Africa. It is actually an ancient Egyptian habit, that's why it is so common regardless of people's religion. I heard that even in Saudi Arabia FGM is unheard of.

And as Akshar said, clerics of both religions ARE speaking out against it. It's on national TV all the time, and there is an ad campaign too. Whether or not it will work will only be made clearer with time. TV campaigns have worked wonders in reducing Bilharziasis dramatically but they have yielded less dramatic (but contrary to popular belief tangible) results in the population and illiteracy problems. The problem is all these problems (but especially FGM) are mostly practiced in the countryside and in hard to reach isolated regions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carleen:
* deep breath *

I'm treading in dangerous waters here, I know, but please believe that I'm not being mean-spirited. It's just that this often comes to my mind when I hear people, usually Muslims, say things like that. To paraphrase, they may say "Well Christians are guilty of it too, why associate it with Islam."

On the surface this seems like a fair statement, but when I give it more thought, it seems to me the difference is that Muslim [insert crime here] believe they're doing it with the authority & sanction, if not out & out [b]command of Allah, whereas you don't hear of many Christian [insert crime here] saying Jesus wanted them to. Yes, McVeigh killed innocent people in Oklahoma, but he did it because he hated the government. He never said God told him to kill all government employees.

That's why I would think it would be futile for a church to intervene in this bad behavior, because, say in the case of spousal abuse, I've never heard of anyone in this day and time say the Bible gives him the authority to do it.

Any thoughts??

*** Edited to say that I misunderstood LL's post. I thought she was speaking of spousal abuse, not female mutilation. My apologies.

[This message has been edited by Carleen (edited 25 June 2004).][/B]

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Well while this is out of topic too but I will only refer you to something you may read if interested :

The quiet fall of an American terrorist: http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2003/12/10/waagner/index.html

VIOLENCE & HARASSMENT
AT U.S. ABORTION CLINICS: http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

In the above web site they refer to the Army Of God :
http://www.armyofgod.com/

***This web site quotes many biblical passages including: Luke 22:36: "...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Jeremiah 48:10: "Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."
Psalm 58:10: "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.***

quote:

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Originally posted by fridaies:
I think that some "religious"authorities cannot completely condemn the act, because as far as i know there is a Hadeeth saying, when it is done for women, it should not be too much..something of that meaning of course...which shows that it is not banned at all in islam.

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Give us the quote because i disagree with you. Having been married to a Syrian and an Egyptian I know that one culture has never heard of it and the other practises.

I will be amazed if you can find one example outside of Africa.

Also your comment does not explain why this is a cross religious issue rather than a purely Islamic issue.

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
Well while this is out of topic too but I will only refer you to something you may read if interested :

The quiet fall of an American terrorist: http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2003/12/10/waagner/index.html

VIOLENCE & HARASSMENT
AT U.S. ABORTION CLINICS: http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

In the above web site they refer to the Army Of God :
http://www.armyofgod.com/

***This web site quotes many biblical passages including: Luke 22:36: "...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Jeremiah 48:10: "Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."
Psalm 58:10: "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.***

the web site also call some murders as heros and those "heros" claimed to be doing the will of Christ.

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Very true Troubles, very true. The abortion bombers are definitely an exception to what I said. And once again, I apologize for the thread drift.

PS - But this thread didn't start off about FGM.

“Actually, this is a controversial issue among jurists and even among doctors. It has sparked off fierce debate in Egypt whereby scholars and doctors are split into proponents and opponents.

However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris.

Actually, Muslim countries differ over the issue of female circumcision; some countries sanction it whereas others do not. Anyhow, it is not obligatory, whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world. But whoever chooses not to do it is not considered to have committed a sin for it is mainly meant to dignify women as held by scholars.

another Fatwa:

1. Circumcision for males is Waajib (compulsory) according to Imaam Abu
Hanifa. If circumcision will hinder a person from accepting Islam then
accepting Islam should be given preference over circumcision.
2. It is Mustahabb (commendable) for females to circumcise. It is narrated
in an authentic Hadith quoted from Abu Dawood Shareef that during the
Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)'s time there was a woman in Madinah
who used to perform circumsicion for women (Fathul Bari vol. 16 p. 353)

quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:

Give us the quote because i disagree with you. Having been married to a Syrian and an Egyptian I know that one culture has never heard of it and the other practises.

I will be amazed if you can find one example outside of Africa.

Also your comment does not explain why this is a cross religious issue rather than a purely Islamic issue.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carleen:
you don't hear of many Christian [insert crime here] saying Jesus wanted them to.

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Pick up a history book and start reading... for centuries christian people have been fighting wars and killing christians/non-christians because they said it was God's will, etc.

So much blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity, yet it's all conveniently forgotten...especially by the descendants of the Christians who massacred entire civilizations of South/North Americas.

Muslims have never committed genocide in the name of Allah but Christians have in the name of God. How come you never hear about that?

quote:

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Originally posted by Carleen:

PS - But this thread didn't start off about FGM.

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It didn't start off about wife beating either. It started off about translating the Koran and Bible translations. As far as I can see LL was the only one that really got that (well, Nef did too as she addressed my questions), then it went off onto wife beatings and FGM. It has been interesting though.

quote:

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Pick up a history book and start reading... for centuries christian people have been fighting wars and killing christians/non-christians because they said it was God's will, etc.

So much blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity, yet it's all conveniently forgotten...especially by the descendants of the Christians who massacred entire civilizations of South/North Americas.

Muslims have never committed genocide in the name of Allah but Christians have in the name of God. How come you never hear about that?

[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 26 June 2004).]

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On that point - cutting lumps off people cannot be right. Are they trying to say that God made a bad job of designing the human body? Dreadful thought and totally arrogant in any religion. (Another log?)

Yes I do know wife beaters - lots of them but then I lived in the middle of an Egyptian vilage among those that did not discuss what they thought was in the Koran, they lived it and lived not with black eyes bu with hidden bruises that their husbands would not want anyone else to see..

One man complained to me that he had a bad wife who kept telling her father that he hit her. I asked if she was lying. "Of course not", he replied "but she is not supposed to tell her father about it".

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie:
It didn't start off about wife beating either. It started off about translating the Koran and Bible translations. As far as I can see LL was the only one that really got that (well, Nef did too as she addressed my questions), then it went off onto wife beatings and FGM. It has been interesting though.

Thanks LL for "getting it" though. I was glad someone did and understood my point.

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Quran is different in one way, It is meant to be recited and often during Salaht.
That means words have to be translated not interpreted.

Think of it like trying to translate an english song to arabic, the objective is to Sing to the Esisting Melody , which mean you can not have a whole paragraph explaining one word.

Having said that, Beat or Strike would be an accurate enough word.

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:

One man complained to me that he had a bad wife who kept telling her father that he hit her. I asked if she was lying. "Of course not", he replied "but she is not supposed to tell her father about it".

[This message has been edited by Luxorlover (edited 26 June 2004).]

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
On that point - cutting lumps off people cannot be right. Are they trying to say that God made a bad job of designing the human body? Dreadful thought and totally arrogant in any religion. (Another log?)

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Carleen: Male circumsciom does not cut through a vein and leave the person at risk of bleeding to death. Nor does it leave massive scaring. Male cicumscision is practiced in hot countries where the lack of removal of the foreskin can cause medical problems. What medical problems does the clitoris cause? Except that I was told (by a differnt man than the complaining wife-beater) that "women have trouble when walking if this is not cut off. You must ask a Moslem doctor though" he added "as all the others will lie to you". Talk about brain washing.

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Originally posted by Carleen:
I'm well-versed in history, thanks. I was referring to the 21st century, and specifically mentioned that later in my post.

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Elmagnoon - I even thought it was funny at the time.

Carleen: Male circumsciom does not cut through a veil and leave the person at risk of bleeding to death. Nor does it leave massive scaring. Male cicumscision is practiced in hot countries where the lack of removal of the foreskin can cause medical problems. What medical problems does the crlitoris cause? Except that I was told (by a differnt man than the complaining wife-beater) that "women have trouble when walking if this is not cut off. You must ask a Moslem doctor though" he added "as all the others will lie to you". Talk about brain washing.

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Well believe me, under certain "circumstances" male genitalia can REALLY be an impediment to walking but you don't hear anyone saying male genatalia should be cutoff.

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
Well believe me, under certain "circumstances" male genitalia can REALLY be an impediment to walking but you don't hear anyone saying male genatalia should be cutoff.

The best way here is to be very frank. Most of those people in the villages who support FGM are of the opinion that the clitoris produces insatiable sexual urges in women, so if it's not removed the woman would become promiscuous. Since the clitoris is the area where satisfaction is born and the ovaries are where true urge starts, a good analogy would be: Cutting off a man's penis but leaving his testicles intact. He still produces hormones but he doesn't have an organ with which to reach orgasm and calm down those urges. That should convince a lot of people I guess, if we are frank that is.

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Kimo you are priceless... don't ever leave us, your analogy is wonderful and as for your first sentence... well just so funny.
Thanks for making me laugh!

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Carleen: Male circumsciom does not cut through a vein and leave the person at risk of bleeding to death. Nor does it leave massive scaring. Male cicumscision is practiced in hot countries where the lack of removal of the foreskin can cause medical problems. What medical problems does the clitoris cause? Except that I was told (by a differnt man than the complaining wife-beater) that "women have trouble when walking if this is not cut off. You must ask a Moslem doctor though" he added "as all the others will lie to you". Talk about brain washing.

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Oh, believe me, I wasn't in any way defending FGM, which isn't circumsision in my opinion, but strictly mutilation. I was just curious from your comment if you also thought actual circumsision was as abhorrent.

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
Sorry for keeping off the point...

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
Well believe me, under certain "circumstances" male genitalia can REALLY be an impediment to walking but you don't hear anyone saying male genatalia should be cutoff.

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Kimo that was the best thing posted on ES since our seduction thread. Have some sushi on me.

Kimo: I'm still smiling. Keep dangling.

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Originally posted by kimo_the_maniac:
Well believe me, under certain "circumstances" male genitalia can REALLY be an impediment to walking but you don't hear anyone saying male genatalia should be cutoff.

The best way here is to be very frank. Most of those people in the villages who support FGM are of the opinion that the clitoris produces insatiable sexual urges in women, so if it's not removed the woman would become promiscuous. Since the clitoris is the area where satisfaction is born and the ovaries are where true urge starts, a good analogy would be: Cutting off a man's penis but leaving his testicles intact. He still produces hormones but he doesn't have an organ with which to reach orgasm and calm down those urges. That should convince a lot of people I guess, if we are frank that is.

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Originally posted by akshar:
Kimo that was the best thing posted on ES since our seduction thread. Have some sushi on me.

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