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I should like to know if any uk women who live or stay for long periods in Luxor ie have there own flat allow men friends (not lovers) to visit? I know it is frowned upon there - but some of you talk of men friends and I wonder how you get around this. Posts: 97 | From: uk | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Yes I do have men to visit me and to stay with me. MY ex-partner (even though we no longer lived together) tried to stop this, saying that it was immoral to have a man there when the door was closed. One is in his mid seventies but it made no difference.
The situation was made worse when I had a male guest stay with me in my flat for a few days. In England this would not have even raised an eyebrow but nearly started World War III. My ex-partner virtually kicked the door in.
The guest by the way was totally confused by the whole incident and was a perfect gentleman while staying in my flat.
I have difficulty understanding why it causes such a problem and why my ex-partner assumed that I 'sleep' with all of my male guests when in fact in am very respectable.
When I lived in the family home I was never alone with a male. My partner's mother would always sit in a chair and supervise (even if it was a male family member) despite the fact that she could not speak a work of English. I think that by supervising me she was protecting her son's reputation as well as mine.
[This message has been edited by Luxorlover (edited 07 July 2004).]
posted
I assume you are talking about Egyptian men here and not UK visitors? If yes then it is very simple....no decent Egyptian man would enter your flat. He will know what the community will think and if he values you and your reputation then no he cannot visit you alone.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
IS IT TRUE IN EGYPT YOU CANT SHOW ANY KIND OF AFFECTION TO YOUR PARTNER WILL UR IN PUBLIC?
Posts: 62 | From: england | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by frances: IS IT TRUE IN EGYPT YOU CANT SHOW ANY KIND OF AFFECTION TO YOUR PARTNER WILL UR IN PUBLIC?
Depends on what you call affection. The only time I ever kiss my husband in a public place is at the airport if I have been away.. then it is a formal kiss on each cheek. I do hold his hand in public but that's about it.
posted
My ex partner went mad about European visitors - to him all men were the same, regardless of age or nationality. The visitor that he nearly kicked the door in over was an Iranian. The only Egyptian men that ever come into my flat without their wives are workmen, and then nine times out of ten my landlord will come with them.
I would never have shown 'affection' for my partner in public. He would have been horrified. Like Penny, a chaste kiss at the airport would be the extent of it and even there I have known him to shake my hand. He looked down on all women that allowed themselves to be touched or kissed in public.
If a man does anything to a woman in public, other than taking her arm, then he has little respect for her.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: I assume you are talking about Egyptian men here and not UK visitors? If yes then it is very simple....no decent Egyptian man would enter your flat. He will know what the community will think and if he values you and your reputation then no he cannot visit you alone.
Do you consider geographic location, district within a specific location, level of education, upbringing, class if you will (I guess many do not like this to be emphasized but..) etc when you make such general statements in absolute terms: "no decent Egyptian man"?...
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 07 July 2004).]
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I'm not sure about Cairo as I have never lived there but in Luxor it has nothing to do with class or education. If anything the opposite may be true.
I have a young European friend who is married to an Egyptian and would not even open the door to a man if her husband was not there. Her husband got angry with her once and refused to speak to her for a week because she let his brother in. When he phoned her one night and a man answered he was on the point of divorcing her before she proved that he had dialled a wrong number.
posted
No, I am not joking in the least. They have a small daughter and he loves her but he was still on the point of divorcing her over it.I think that it is to do with honour etc.
If a man is left alone with a woman there is an automatic assumption that something is going on. In fact in Luxor if a European woman is seen talking to a man in the street (other than in the market) then many assume that they are having an affair. Within hours your the woman's partner always knows about it and is usually angry and wants to know what they were talking about and who spoke to who first.
quote:Originally posted by katrina: Do you consider geographic location, district within a specific location, level of education, upbringing, class if you will (I guess many do not like this to be emphasized but..) etc when you make such general statements in absolute terms: "no decent Egyptian man"?...
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 07 July 2004).]
There is no generalisation.... I am talking anywhere in Egypt, any class, any level of education... That is the way the society works.
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Thanks for all your views. Yes I have difficulty in understanding why it can cause a problem - but it goes back to the culture thing I suppose. If only they knew that most of us are very selective in who we have relationships/sex with.
It has cleared up one of my niggles/worries that it would be quite safe to rent a flat in Luxor. I am friendly with a family - very fond of them all - the wife, children and even the husband. Husband does have a soft spot for me but I don't want him turning up on the doorstep, of course I am assuming that he might try I may well be being unfair to him - I think perhaps I am. So it's great news! We/I do so enjoy having the banter with them - the Egyptians have a good sense of humour - even the serious looking ladies sitting in the door ways break in to a lovely smile when acknowledged. I don't want that to stop. BUT I don't want men to get in the way of my love of Egypt - I don't want it tarnished. That's why I need to know these things before renting a flat in Luxor We would have uk brothers/family etc to visit. We don't want to be seen as disrespecting the Egyptian way of life and yet we don't want to feel we have to exclude our relations/friends from the uk. Perhaps it would be an idea to invite the neighbours to a meal and meet them so that they would understand a little more?
For the past 2 years we have greeted our Egyptian friends whith a hug and kiss on both cheeks,(as we do in the uk) at this moment I feel perhaps we shouldn't do this? As some one mentioned on the forumn all the advice and tips can some times make me/us feel a little uneasy - but the feeling usually disappears and I/we follow our instinct with the cushion of knowledge from you all as a safe warning bell!!!!
posted
I cannot say it is true of the Egyptian people I met. These people are decent and respectable in true sense of it as well as from the stand point of the public opinion. These people are professors educated and teaching both in Cairo, Egypt and USA, Cairo and Alexandria intelligencia
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 08 July 2004).]
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Greeting friends with a kiss on each cheek is fine IT IS THE CUSTOM. That is a simple greeting after that you will notice that there is no body contact between male and females. Between males and males, and females and females, there will be lots.
European friends staying with Europeans, (brothers, sons, etc) do not cause a problem of any kind. If you live without an Egyptian partner, who you have visiting is entirely up to you. It is only if there is an Egyptian involved that there is any problem and that it relates to non-relatives.
When my landlord comes to have things mended, etc., he is quite happy to come inside the flat but HE NEVER CLOSES THE FRONT DOOR.
quote:Originally posted by frances: so what about two tourists walking down the street holding hands?
Absolutely no problem. In fact a good thing because it will say to any opportunist man that you are with a partner and 'spoken for'.
Please don't confuse the difference for those living within Egyptian society and what is accepted from tourists. If you wish to respect the culture while here though just keep it to holding hands.
quote:Originally posted by katrina: I cannot say it is true of the Egyptian people I met. These people are decent and respectable in true sense of it as well as from the stand point of the public opinion. These people are professors educated and teaching both in Cairo, Egypt and USA, Cairo and Alexandria intelligencia
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 08 July 2004).]
What are you saying they do as normal behaviour then?. Do you not think they may have adapted to western society and what is acceptable behaviour there.?
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Kat - Maybe they have adapted and have more freedom themselves but I still doubt that they would allow their wives to be alone with another man.
Posts: 2235 | From: Jail | Registered: Jun 2004
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The fact is that some decent Egyptian men ~ when abroad ~ have a different attitude because they are in a different society, and some will respect and trust their wives being among friends, while they are not around. Some will not allow it as a principle not out of respect or mistrust..
It is the same in Cairo or Alexandria depending on the family. Not every Egyptian family in Egypt is a carbon copy of another...
What people say is the real issue here. The 'dignity' and 'reputation' play the major role here, regardless of the religious part.
And it goes both ways....
So depending on the district, the neighborhood, the upbringing, the education /westernized or not/ etc...
quote:Originally posted by Luxorlover: Kat - Maybe they have adapted and have more freedom themselves but I still doubt that they would allow their wives to be alone with another man.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 08 July 2004).]
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How do women normally greet males like brother-in-laws, father-in-law, uncles, etc..... Kiss on both cheeks?
Posts: 89 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Again..it depends on the 'family'.. the best method to adopt is simply ask your husband..and this way no social 'gaffe'...
If in 'doubt'I go by the principal of asking the 'other' what would he prefer. And I like the same reciprocity and respect when it is the other way around. It is a better way of dealing with sensitive issues.
quote:Originally posted by wedi: How do women normally greet males like brother-in-laws, father-in-law, uncles, etc..... Kiss on both cheeks?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 08 July 2004).]
posted
That is good advice. That way nobody gets upset.
I always got upset at the family restricting my visitors because it was so totally alien to me. Sometimes people called at the house and were told that I was out, just because my partner was not there.
Again as Monica said much will depend on the family but of those that have had little to do with western cultures you will find that they are very 'traditional' in what they expect.
posted
I asked that question a while back and there is a line that people have been adding to - there seem to be fewer than I thought but it is now into double figures. !!
[This message has been edited by Luxorlover (edited 08 July 2004).]
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My experience is that it is Ok for male tourists to visit me at the flats when Mahmoud is not here and for me to show them around but never would one of his friends even ask to come in when he is not here.
Everyone does report back to him who I have been talking to and who I have meet. But this is normal custom and not meant nasterly but as looking out for you.
Wow your husband lets you hold hands in public. I got told of for putting my hand on his when we were on our balcony. lol !!!
Mahmoud will allow formal kisses in public but that is me kissing him on the cheek and never him kissing me and twice he has kissed me non formally (both times on New Years Eve when the lights went off at midnight so nobody saw anything but he knew it would mean a lot to me).
I don't greeting kiss male relatives or friends only ladies but it would be OK if the Europeans and were good friends.
------------------ Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor
posted
Interesting difference on the holding hands. It is not just us but also Egyptian and other region arabs couples in Sharm. We do the same in Cairo and likewise have seen may 2 x Egyptian couples there the same. So looks like we have a regional difference.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I have noticed through these lines that the regional differences between the north and the south are so great that it is almost like being on another planet.
Posts: 2235 | From: Jail | Registered: Jun 2004
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