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I have been reading some of these threads in which women are explaining their situations with their Egyptian men and it makes me wonder "Where do they find these guys?" Perhaps I live a sheltered life, but I do not know ANY men like those that have been described by women on this board. I believe that these experiences are real, of course. It is just quite strange to me that they should find these types of men, when all my friends and acquaintances are all honest men sincerely looking for a good woman. Incidentally, generally they have trouble finding one that is a match. I think they often meet the "too good to be true" fears when they go for engagement. That is to say that women think these guys are lying because they sound too good to be true, being principled, educated, successful, and from upper-middle class to upper class families. Upon negotiating for engagement the girls always get nervous and put it off.
Does anyone have any opinions on this? It seems that the bad attract the love of the good, and that the high quality man frightens women. Confusing...
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I think part of the reason that some foreign women have horror stories to tell about Egyptian men as that they don't get the meet the right guys. When you're a tourist, you unnfortunately attract most of the players...Nice guys don't usually try to hit on you. If you're not living in Egypt to start with, how do you meet someone nice? I met my husband online, but I'm aware that the chances of meeting a serious Muslim this way are one in a million!
Posts: 66 | From: Paris, France | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ah yes, I understand now. Even we in Egypt do not trust the types that target tourists. So to put what you two have said in a different way; these women with these experiences are only meeting a fringe segment of Egyptian society, which happens to be one assembled of hustlers and swindlers. Thanks!
Posts: 238 | Registered: Jan 2004
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You've all said interesting things that I want to comment on.
First Undead... in your first post you mentioned "negotiating for engagement". That is such a FOREIGN term and idea to the western woman, it really doesn't come into play at all. Western women, at least the ones that are getting their hearts broken by these men, are looking for LUV and that is all. They expect LUV (notice I don't use the term LOVE...as I'm not sure any of them are really familiar with it, but LUV is a mixture of lust and affection) and the idea of actually making some sort of negotiation with the man or his family about what is expected after marriage is completely foreign and would never happen.
Egyptian Heart... It is great to hear of the success stories from Internet romances. It gives me hope and a reason to not ignore all the Yahoo boneheads that message me...LOL. There are a number of them though that are not very sincere....or they wouldn't be IMing me. I mean, how sincere do you really think a 20 or 30-something is when he is trying to pick up a 40 or 50-something woman, and he keeps saying "age doesn't matter"? YUK! These are not all tourist boys....most of them claim to be engineers.
Monica... You are so right about the "classes" issue. I've been here 6 yrs now, and I still don't feel like I am really 100% adapt to that system. Being American, we just aren't raised that way. We really do look at everyone as much more equal than Egyptians do. I don't know if it is for the good or bad that I am finding myself thinking about classes more and more. I used to feel one of my girlfriends (similar age group) was being VERY snobbish about the men she would consider going out with... now I see she is just trying to stay within her social circle. For myself, I find it very frustrating when I see a great looking guy driving a Mercedes, and I have to remind myself not to bother with him because he is more than likely the driver, and not the owner. DANG!
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Debbie, you made me smile in regards with the Mercedes driver being probably exactly that: the driver...what a common mistake some would make when not aware of the 'classes'in Egypt...
Which reminds me of a short episode while in a mercedes with a driver; At my request, we stopped at a flower shop in Maadi Degla, I got the flowers, and the florist gave me an extra individual rose...so, I decided to give the driver the rose and told him: this is for your lady...so he said:
'No no Madam, if I start this she would be suspicious of me, and maybe think that I became 'high class' and hiding it from her...I can't afford this madam!'
posted
The class issue doesn't really become an obstacle except when regarding marriage, in my experience. My family has always been very fair regarding the concept of class so possibly it is just my perception. I have close friends from middle and lower classes, and my family is regarded as upper class. Come to think of it the difference in life style, religion (observance) and wealth CAN be dramatic at times. I once (years ago) found myself quite fond of a girl that was from the lower class in Cairo, but differences in class "culture" made it very difficult for her to relate to me at times, and our families could not really mingle; so things didn't progress to marriage At times I see the higher classes treat the lower as rubbish, and thus I understand when I see resentment of the wealthy among the lower class, but the lower class people usually have a feeling that they are not good enough and this leads them into playing into the roles that lead the higher classes to believe that they actually are willing to be treated badly. Society is sometimes quite frustrating...
[This message has been edited by Undead (edited 17 January 2004).]
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Greetings to all the posters on ES. My husband and I are travelling to Egypt for the first time Feb 27 and we can't wait! I have been following all the postings for several months and it has been so incredibly informative. Thank you especially to Debbie, Monica and Ms. Jen - you all are fantastic women. I just thought I would chime in on the class issue. Those of us who are American are so unfamiliar with rigid class structures which exist in so many countries (not that we don't have a class system in the U.S. - it's just less rigid). I lived in Spain for 5 years right after Franco died (I am 44 now) and this was my first exposure to the class system. Spain at that time had basically no middle class. I had several Spanish boyfriends in that period; one from a working class family and one from a well-to-do educated family. Needless to say, I could relate much more to the better educated guy as we had more in common. My next long-term exposure to the class system (besides travels to South America, etc) was when I went to do my master's degree in London. I had been to London several times before on brief holidays, but had no idea how rigid the English class system was until I lived there. I guess what I want to say with all this is that class is an issue as it boils down to education and exposure. I was raised in Connecticut, daughter of Norwegian immigrants. After living in many places, I have settled with my hubby in Charleston, SC (a very beautiful place) and I had more culture shock here than I have had anywhere. Many people here lack education and exposure and SC ranks #1 in all kinds of bad things like spouse abuse, STD's, teen pregnancies, auto accidents, etc Thank you for letting me put in my 2 cents and keep up the good work! LoriG.
Posts: 18 | From: Mt. Pleasant, SC, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Hi Lori, could you please explain what you mean by "rigid" because when you say that it comes down to exposure and education, that gives me the impression that if one could gain both, they could move through the classes. Much like in the States. To me, a lot of it is bearing, and who you know. That may be the part that makes it more rigid.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Undead: Society is sometimes quite frustrating...
Frustrating indeed! and all this talk about classes reminds me of globalization actually, and how culture clashes keep getting in the way, and although things seem to be improving or changing towards progressive, aggressive, impressive business systems, when the dust settles it boils down to the same thing, The most powerful wins!!!
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Did my parents forget to teach me that I was a part of a "rigid" class system then? I am english, living in England, and while we may have differences in visible wealth, our class system is NOT clearly defined except in the case of the royal family who are expected to marry within their own court circle. However, there have been many exceptions to that rigidity, especially the marriage of King Edward to Wallis Simpson, an American, and it was not her class that caused him to abdicate, it was the fact that she was divorced. I consider myself to be working class, I have to work to earn a living, but I most certainly do not see the more wealthy inhabitants of our society as being any better or worse than me. We all fart dont we??
Posts: 1196 | From: www.spiritofthenile.com | Registered: Jun 2002
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I with Shareen where is this rigid class system in the UK?
My grandfathers(working class) were respectively a carpentor and lorry driver and my dad was a sales manager and my mum a book keeper(middle class). I didn't go to university(working class) but my cousins who's father(working class) works in a steel factory did(middle class). One cousinn is a very high up dental professor.(middle class).
Doesn't seem very rigid to me
------------------ UK Co-owner of www.toursinluxor.co.uk Accommodation and Tours in Luxor
I humbly stand corrected about the rigid class system in England. The only reason I said this is I was told over and over again that to succeed, you had to have the proper accent; that to get the best jobs, you didn't even really need a college degree. The most important thing was which boarding school you attended. But, I am glad to hear that I am misguided with this and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. Maybe I'll do better if I find another topic to post on...LOL All the best, Lori G.
Posts: 18 | From: Mt. Pleasant, SC, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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I am glad we are able to correct you. In fact you are absolutely right about everything you say but your timing is so out. About 50 years ago this was true and my parents genenration might have agreed with you but since the 1950's things have moved on. We even have Kentuckty Fried Chicken and MacDonalds these days though i am not sure that is an advance
quote:Originally posted by loriglenn: Hi everyone:
I humbly stand corrected about the rigid class system in England. The only reason I said this is I was told over and over again that to succeed, you had to have the proper accent; that to get the best jobs, you didn't even really need a college degree. The most important thing was which boarding school you attended. But, I am glad to hear that I am misguided with this and I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. Maybe I'll do better if I find another topic to post on...LOL All the best, Lori G.
------------------ UK Co-owner of www.toursinluxor.co.uk Accommodation and Tours in Luxor
Yes - I am a bit oudated. I lived in London 20 years ago - the reaction to my posting made me think about how long ago it was. And London was certainly a very vibrant, dynamic city then as it still is. I would have given anything to work there after I finished school had I been able to find a job. And - yes - there were KFC's and McDonald's when I was there and I definately agree with you that this does not signify progress. I preferred the fish and chips vendors, pub grub, all the great Indian restaurants, and the wine bars. Back to Egypt, I am reading "Palace Walk" by Naguib Mahfouz. What a fantastic book. It is so well written; no wonder Mahfouz won the Nobel Prize. I got the whole "Cairo Trilogy" for my birthday in Dec. and look forward to reading the other 2 books. I can't put this one down. I'm sure many here on ES have read his works. Would love to hear your comments. All the best, Lori G.
Posts: 18 | From: Mt. Pleasant, SC, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Lori I dont think either myself or Akshar took offence at your class comment. Personally I thought it was funny. So you are enjoying the Cairo Trilogy? An excellent author. I have read many of his books myself. There was a thread on here some time back, I think Monica started it off, where lots of books were recommended. If I get chance I will find you the link to it.
Posts: 1196 | From: www.spiritofthenile.com | Registered: Jun 2002
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Naguib Mahfouz/Books [Translated in English)
Palace Walk (Book 1 of the Cairo Trilogy) (originally published in Arabic 1956) Palace of Desire (Book 2 of the Cairo Trilogy) (originally published in Arabic 1957) Sugar Street (Book 3 of the Cairo Trilogy) (originally published in Arabic 1957) Children of Gebelawi (originally published in Arabic 1959) The Beginning and the End (originally published in Arabic 1956) Adrift on the Nile (originally published in Arabic 1966) The Journey of Ibn Fattouma (originally published in Arabic 1983) Midaq Alley (originally published in Arabic 1947) The Harafish (originally published in Arabic 1977) The Beggar (originally published in Arabic 1965) The Thief and the Dogs (originally published in Arabic 1961) Autumn Quail (originally published in Arabic 1962) Wedding Song (originally published in Arabic 1981) The Search (originally published in Arabic 1964) Fountain and Tomb (originally published in Arabic 1975) Miramar (originally published in Arabic 1967) The Time and the Place and other stories Respected Sir (originally published in Arabic 1975) Arabian Nights and Days (originally published in Arabic 1982)
quote:Originally posted by Shareen: Lori I dont think either myself or Akshar took offence at your class comment. Personally I thought it was funny. So you are enjoying the Cairo Trilogy? An excellent author. I have read many of his books myself. There was a thread on here some time back, I think Monica started it off, where lots of books were recommended. If I get chance I will find you the link to it.
i just want to give my opineon on what u said i have been living in the uk for a long time now and most the of women here are looking for realtionships but nit marraige they think that marragie is a very big step so egyption men don't now the way they are thinking because they think that they want to get married or enngaed and so when english women find them selves in this stituation they leave the ralathionship. I now most people here in collage their parents are living with eachother for like 10 years but are not married most of them are like that i hope you understand what i mean and what i am trying to say and all the replays are intresting and its nice to now what people are thinking
thank you
Bent Masr
Posts: 33 | From: london | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Hi Bint Masr, I haven't spent much time in England but I do have doubts that most women in England and the UK aren't interested in marriage. I have lived in the USA for years and the culture there is closer to the UK and western Europe, at least in regards to sex and relationships. Relationships are more casual in the USA than in Misr for sure, but I think around the world women hate to have their hearts broken. Even more than that, they hate to be left with a child to care for without a husband to love them and help them raise their child. So following that, women still desire the stability of marriage, and the promises made surrounding the wedding. Of course marriage doesn't guarantee that the husband will follow his words with deeds, but it is a better chance that he will. Personally I think most men want marriage as well, in the States, in Europe and of course in Egypt. (Not to mention the rest of the world)
Posts: 238 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Whenever an issue regarding Egyptian women is raised in this site, I feel one of two: 1) bunch of foreigners, who deem that they have grasped the Egyptian culture and fully understood the physiology of the Egyptian women, or some Egyptians guys who are still immersed in their patriarchal presumptions flavoured by some religious spices. Wakes up, if Egyptian men can relate, date, and marry non-Egyptian women, so can the Egyptian women. Please ……do not flag the logistics of the religion, as we all know it is only a matter of technicalities and formalities!
In real life, non-Egyptian Muslim women are committed to non-Egyptian and non-Muslim men (It is not a matter of can or can not). I am one of them; I have been in a four-year relation with a non-Muslim guy. Two of my Egyptians female friends are married to non-Egyptian and non-Muslim guys. Another very good Egyptian friend is going to have her first baby from her non-Muslim and non-Egyptian partner.
In earlier threads, some of you mentioned that there is a dilemma when it comes to finding the right match, the mature, responsible and independent Egyptian women…… the other different Egyptian women !!!!!, and this was the offered explanation for the fact that some Egyptian men marries western women, they possesses these missing and wanted qualities,. However, if any discussions started to explore the possibility of Egyptian women practising some rituals which is not the norm and performing some ground-breaking actions, then every one will squeeze his/her nose to submerse these discussions, abort these attempts and sabotage any possible change. We are living in denial or as we say in anthropology the “culture of silence”, we do not like what we are practising and experiencing but so spineless to change it! Sorry for the long message, felt the urge to say something!
quote:Originally posted by Undead: Does anyone have any opinions on this? It seems that the bad attract the love of the good, and that the high quality man frightens women. Confusing...
EXACTLY! You couldn't have found more suitable words!
Btw one of the reasons may be a certain degree of cynicism that every reasonably intelligent woman acquires after her second or so 'relationship' (the latest).
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At times I see the higher classes treat the lower as rubbish, and thus I understand when I see resentment of the wealthy among the lower class, but the lower class people usually have a feeling that they are not good enough and this leads them into playing into the roles that lead the higher classes to believe that they actually are willing to be treated badly. Society is sometimes quite frustrating... 
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