This is not an Islamic practice as you will not find it in Suadi, Syria, Lebannon and the like. It is an African practice.

A senior mufti in Cairo has spoken out about the practice and it is condemed by the government. This has not had an impact yet on the statistics. The people at grass roots level feel they are doing the best thing for their children and this will make them safer and more protected.

If you do a search on Goggle or Yahoo on female gential mutilation you will get lots of information.

A very controversial/agressive/progressive/feminist Egyptian woman writer:
Nawal El Saadawi, wrote an excellent book - very raw though - on the female genital mutilation in 1977.
The name of the book is:
'The hidden face of Eve.'
I'm sure you can get it through the internet.

The active association called : 'Women's Intellectual Contributions to the study of Minds and Society' takes part in creating the awareness, of the dangers of such practices - among other issues.

Hope this helps.
Monica
PS: I see you are into 'Egypt' from every side, girl, it's great see that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jutta:
I've read so much about this brutal and cruel tradition and I was shocked to read, that it is still an accepted tradition in Egypt. Can anyone provide me with english texts / links about that subject? I have it only in German.
Or dear Egyptian friends in ES: do you know sites/books/texts about it in arabic?
How is this subject treated in the society? I know it is officially forbidden by law, but still accepted as a good tradition within the society. Do you know organizations which are going against it?

---

Explore, explore, explore, and then report !

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jutta:
Thanks, I'll try to do my best, Monica ;-)

Tomorrow i will even get more into it: i will arrive in Hurghada at 1pm

---

By the way,both Christains and Muslims pratice this tradition mostly in regions like Saeed[Upper Egypt] Although,I have heard even elite Egyptian women often undergo the pratice as well.

The pratice of circumcision itself probably originates in ancient Egypt. Herodotus,a Greek historian,accounts that the Aethiopies[modern Nubians] and Egyptians brought the pratice to the Syro-Palestinean people thus the semetic people. The only difference with the pratice in ancient Egyptian times is that it was preformed when children came of age as opposed to the Semetic tradition which is done at birth. One of the scenes of the matasba of Ankhmahor shows one of these tradition firmly embeded into Egypt and praticed still today in rural villages.
Edward Lane in his book''Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians'' also documents the pratice.

can I know the nature of your interest on FGM ( personal/research).

There was a thread on this issue in ES before, so I would suggest that you check it as it have very good information. I would also suggest to check the UN page(s) on FGM ( WHO , UNICEF and UNFPA) http://www.who.int/docstore/frh-whd/FGM/

There are very active organization as Rainbo and Forward and German ones like GTZ, youc an chek there web site.

As for Egypt the following organization are relatively active on FGM

The Egyptain Society against the harmful traditional practices

The Egyptian Task Force on FGM

There is the New Women research center

Another important reference is the Demographic Health Survey (DHS) site . You can find there prevalence rate of FGM in different practising country.

A very recent and interesting publication on FGM is FGM a controversy , edited by Bettina Shull-Duncan

If you tell me why you need the information, is it for personal interest or specific research I will be able to guide more, as sexual health is my field.

Cheers

The most sever type of circumcision, which is called infibulation is practised in the Upper Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, and Djibouti .In Sudan, people called infibulation ( pharaonic circumcision) and in Egypt they call it (Sudanese circumcision). So now own want to claim it ownership to the practice and especially the most sever type of it. However, There is no sufficient evidence to assume that the practice especially the most sever type ( infibulation) has originated from Egypt.

As Efua Dorkenoo says FGM were introduce when the Nile valley was invaded by militant pastoral nomads, and cultural transformed, around 3100BC. Although FGM occurs in Egypt today, there is no evidence of it in the ptolemaic or earlier periods.

According to different references FGM must have developed independently amongst certain ethnic groups in Sub-Saharan Africa as part of puberty rites

3100 B.C. is the usual date Egyptologist give for unification for Upper and Lower Egypt. I know the difference between the Sudanese pratice and Egyptian pratice,but I am willing to bet female circumcision originates in ancient Egypt becaue it is still pratice amungst the Fellahin and sa3eadi who are their direct ancestors. The label of Pharoanic circumcision is a misnomer.

Here is a website that states to the contrary.

http://www.ccsu.edu/afstudy/upd8-3.htm#Female%20Circumcision%20Revisited

You are absolutely right, the first mention of FGM in the Ancient Egypt was by Strabo, 10 Ac. No evidence was found of FMG earlier in the dynastic era in the ancient Egypt. While there was evidence that FGM developed independently amongst certain ethnic group in sub-Saharan Africa as part of puberty rites. Absence of any historical evidence of FGM in Ancient Egypt before mixing with Africa invaders suggest that it could have started to take hold as a social tradition in Egypt in identification with the African conquerors who succeeded to invade Egypt since the 25th Dynasty. By that time, not only the kings, but also the main priest and Amen priestesses were Sudanese. So yes FGM was practised in the Ancient Egypt, but available evidence does not support that theory that the practice originated for there.

I would terribly appreciate if could share with me the references that suggest otherwise. myself and other colleagues have published on this issue and we have examined all available resources, so it would have be of a great help if you can shed light on the information that we could have missed

You first mention the date in 3100 B.C. which is about the same date as unification know you say the pratice was introduced into Egypt via Nubians from the 25th dyansty. This is absolute nonsense!!

Please mention your references that state female gentle multilation came from the 25th dyansty. Show me a Egyptologist that agrees with you assumption. Upper Egypt since pre-dyanstic time has always had a strong African element,and so has a portion of the Northern part of Egypt.

The Nubians did not invaded Upper Egypt but were actually weclomed in by the Upper Egyptians who where then ruled seperatley from Lower Egypt.

Get your historical fact straight please.

This website I previously posted says another story than what you are saying.
http://www.ccsu.edu/afstudy/upd8-3.htm#Female%20Circumcision%20Revisited

Please also remeber that circumcision of the male as a coming of age ritual is both an Egyptian and an African tradition.

¡§The origin of "female circumcision" is obscure-so hazy that Hosken argues the origin is unknown (1994, p. 71). Assaad suggests that female circumcision was practiced in ancient Egypt and hence originated there. Widstrand traces classical references to Agatharchides of Cnidus, a second century BCE geographer (1964, p. 116), while Abdalla suggests that it was practiced in ancient Egypt as a way to "obtain control of [women's] magic power" (1982, p. 66)¡¨

So actually it says that origin of the practice is unknown, and in other part is suggest it mention that FGM is practiced during the Ancient Egypt , which is something I also confirm.

I can not claim I am an Egyptologist, so there are lots of things I do not quite grasp regarding the different dynasties in the Ancient Egypt ( invaded vs. welcomed) . But I did my thesis as a medical scientist/anthropologist on FGM , and I have researched extensively on the origin of the issue . My search resulted in the information I shared with you. I can only remember on hand some reference that back my theory such as:

„h Kamal, Hassan. 1964 Acient Egyptian Medicine. The public Egyptian publishers. Cairo
„h Vercoutter, Jean. 1995. L;Egypte ancienne. Dar El Fikr
„h Al Gammal, Dr. Samir Yehia, 1994. History of Pharonic Medicine and Pharmacy. The Public Egyptian Book Agency. Cairo

I have provided you with academic references and not editorial messages published in a African Newsletter!

As for male circumcision I will refer a publication by Abu-Sahleih, Sami Al Deeb 1994. To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah: Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision. The international Journal of Medicine and Law, Vol. 13, NO 7.8, 1994

The African element in the Egyptian population existed well before the coming of the 25th dyansty,and is aserted in various physical anthropology journals.

However,historical documentation shows that circumcison,at least male circumcison, was praticed by both Egyptians and Aethiopies[Nubians]and later transplanted to Semetic groups.

The circumcision ritual praticed in ancient Egypt has conformity with other African traditions and groups.

Do some reserch about the Pre-dyanstic era.

I thank you for providing the references and I shall look further into them. My interest in ancient Egypt is concerning the pratices of the pharoanic era that exist still in modern day Egypt.

This deep interest comes from the fact that I am a native Upper Egyptian myself that currently resides in America. Thank you for the constructive dialogue and discourse.

Does anyone see the Eve and the apple scenerio here? I was raised Wisconsin Synod Lutheran and before I knew what sex was I understood that women were responsible to exile man from the garden of Eden. Thus is why FGM is so harmfully done.

Quite possibly since women of ancient Egypt had such monumental influence religiously, businesswise and in government; this would be one way to destroy their sense of self and personal strength. If the most important part of a woman's life is marriage and than hinges on her virginity, then not much else would matter.

In my opinion this objectifies a woman as property. A sacrifice of her will and personal dignity in exchange for a convoluted and evil sensation of domination to empower a man. How much different is chains or cutting a persons achile's tendons?

Possibly in order to a woman of modest means to marry up this would be attractive to a man and he would prefer this sense of power, rather than marrying his social equal and having to par evenly with her.

Remember ancient Egyptians religious tenements revolved around the Nile and its fertility. In order to tap and channel its force you must break it and redervert its strength to serve man and submit itself man's needs. The shift from female fertility power to male fertility power. You don't have to revert to paganism to learn from it.

This attitude might explain desertification and why North Africa and the Middle East has lost so much fertile land. Look to what happened to the Colorado River and how Northwestern Mexico has had desertification problems.