posted
Two recent news stories illustrate one of the unmentionables of modern life -- namely, that Western culture is superior to others. As the United States is now engaged in a protracted and expensive effort to remake the Middle East, we ought to be clear about what we are doing and why.
First, the stories. One concerns the problem of rape in Iraq. The New York Times reported the fate of a 9-year-old Iraqi girl who had been grabbed by a stranger and raped. Awful enough. But perhaps worse than the rape itself was the response of her family.
Like many pre-modern societies, Iraqis live by a shame-honor system. "For a woman's family, all this is worse than death," Dr. Khulud Younis, an Iraqi gynecologist, told the Times. "They will face shame. If a woman (rape victim) has a sister, her future will be gone."
If a woman is brave enough to report a rape to Iraqi authorities, she will be treated with indifference. She must first go to the police who issue the paperwork for forensic examinations. In Baghdad, the only clinic that can perform a forensic exam is located at the city morgue, and it is open only from 8:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. If the rape occurs after business hours, the woman or child will have to return the next day (being careful not to wash away the evidence in the meantime).
The overwhelming majority of victims do not even attempt to file a complaint. Tribal law prescribes that victims of rape be killed by their male relatives, and when this happens, the men are often given extremely light sentences or no punishment by the courts. In the case of the 9-year-old, her life was spared, but her four brothers as well as her mother and father beat her daily for having compromised the family's honor.
The other story concerns young girls in Africa. Just outside Kampala, Uganda, a 16-year-old orphan named Lillian attempts to hold on to her virginity. Both of her parents, reports The New York Times, succumbed to AIDS. She was given into the care of an uncle. But he, too, died of AIDS.
Lillian is keen to delay sex and dreams of going to college. But while the Ugandan government officially encourages abstinence, the culture -- as well as the economy -- push the other way. Young girls often drop out of school to become the second or third wives of an older man. Many others adopt a form of prostitution. Lillian's cousins (to whom she is something of a burden) are pressuring her to get a "sponsor."
Lillian explains: "I know what they mean. They want me to do what so many girls do and get a sugar daddy. You give him what he wants, and he gives you what you want." Another girl puts it this way: "Some of us are orphans. We are barely getting by. If someone comes along and says he'll buy you soap, you might try it. He gives you 1,000 shillings (about 50 cents), and you hope next time he'll give you 2,000."
To say that Western culture is superior is not to say that any particular person living in the West is superior to any person living elsewhere. That would be ridiculous. But it is equally ridiculous to deny that the moral standards, customs and beliefs of the West contribute to fairer and far more humane societies than are found elsewhere.
We are now engaged in a mission to remake the Middle East -- to introduce democracy, the rule of law and religious pluralism. But as we undertake this task, which would be extremely difficult under the best of circumstances, we are hampered by the fact that a sizeable minority of our own people does not believe at all that our way is better. They, in fact, regard the very suggestion as obscene. Any shortcomings of more primitive societies, when they are acknowledged at all, are blamed on others, usually on us.
Feminists who are quick to file lawsuits for even the smallest slight in this country are strangely reluctant to make common cause with women in nations like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. Why? Is it because championing those women would imply that Western society -- which feminists have so long derided as sexist -- is far better than any others when it comes to the treatment of women?
Is it really arrogance, as the liberals would have it, to believe that the system and the culture we've inherited is superior to others? Or is it ingratitude to deny it?
posted
Quran influence Muslims greatly. And thus it influences family values. I belive Islamic family values are two or three tiers. One tier applies to the whole family.
The second tier applies to the woman and plants her firmly in an inferior position. This does not mean that all Muslim wives are treated inferior by their husbands. There are naturally Muslim men that treat their wives with respect and tenderness both as a mate and a mother of ther children. But the stays of the woman as understood in Quran and Hadith places the woman at disadvantage to the husband.
The third tier applies to the man and Quran and elaborated in Hadith certainly give the husbands rights that are denied to women. In the hands of a less than kind and generous male, the wife gets easily exploited and even abused by her husband.
Quran has themes that appeal to the base instincts and desires of men. Rather than rise above these desires, men are actually encouraged to indulge in them. Several are stated here as example. 4 wives
Easy divorce, the husband just repeats you are divorced 3 times
Once a woman is divorced, the two can not reconcile without the woman having to marry another man, have intercourse with him, divorce him and reconcile with her former husband. This is demeaning as if a woman was some kind of object.
Marriage to minors in the 21st century in emulation of the prophet.
Sex with concubines, (Orfi marriage) disregarding the dignity of the wife. She is not an equal partner.
Sex with slaves, disrespect for the wife.
Rape of captives of war. A wife has to to sleep with a rapist.
Islamic scolars in this 21st centuries condone sex with little girls as young as 3.
Exluding women from education and thus making them fully dependent on men. Women living with abusive husbands have no recourse to escape abuse.
I believe this should be sufficient if you care to discuss.
One final note. I would be encouraged and elated if critical number of Muslims say that not all Quranic injuctions regarding women are valid in the 21st century and that some injuctions were applicable to some past period when culture and conditions were different. This will be a step in the right direction which might open the way for Muslims to consider hate and violence themes in Quran as historical and Muslis should not read them literally and try to apply them to all times nder all conditions. Although at the same time we know the sad truth, this was tried for over a century and failed. Islam cannot be reformed or humanized because, as one Muslim put it, “Islam is a non-humanistic religion par excellence”
Islamic family values:
Rights of the Child (contd) 10 Aug. '00 Reformers in the Iranian parliament are seeking to raise the age of marriage for girls from 9 (the example of Muhammad remember) to 14 and boys from 15 to16. Currently the girl's age is determined by the A'isha/Muhammad marriage. She was six and he was fifty - he did "wait" until she was nine to consummate the marriage Penetration of young girls can seriously damage their reproductive organs, let alone any psychological harm it can do. The high maternal mortality rate can be directly attributed to this practice. Also children need time to have a childhood and also study.For more on pedophilia "Sayings of Khomeini" . Warning the words of this "holy" man may cause you to vomit. Their authenticity has been verified.
Some Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini
Quote: Ayatollah Khomeini: A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister. From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990
Polygamy is the tip of the iceberg.
[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 01 September 2005).]
posted
Are you giving these examples to verify the superiority of the western culture to others? There is no civilization/culture superior or inferior as there are no such people. What determines whether our lifestyle is better than the asian or the african one? Is it the fact that we have plenty of food to eat and famous brands to buy our clothes from? There would have been no poverty and children dying on this planet if the West had wanted it to stop. But there are interests, higher and more valuable than life and dignity.
Allow me to say something over this "US trying to remake Middle-East". Who on earth invited the US to remake anything and anyone? I am fed up with the stuff "US is going to save the world" and the terrorist-fighting excuses! Why cannot US government mind their own business? For God's sake, have you realized that hundreds of "inferior" (to you maybe) people in Iraq are duying every year and relatives are mourning over the dead? Why so much pain and misery? Because a mad man wants to remake his neighbor's house while his own is full of filth and suffering.
No one is better than the person next to him and no culture is superior. Middle East has problems and ugly or unhuman institutions but countries in the West also face major social, financial, moral problems. Little children may be raped in "countries of the Third World" but little children are also raped in our modern and progressive West! A woman's life is not respected in the Middle East, but women are not respected in the West, too. We may hide our problems under spot lights and fancy gadgets, but we cannot make them disappear. Should we remake ourselves first and then "save" the rest of the world? However, we should knock on the door first before we enter.
Have a nice day and I am sorry if I ofended someone's feelings, it wasn't my intention.
[This message has been edited by NourHayati (edited 02 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by NourHayati: Are you giving these examples to verify the superiority of the western culture to others? There is no civilization/culture superior or inferior as there are no such people. What determines whether our lifestyle is better than the asian or the african one? Is it the fact that we have plenty of food to eat and famous brands to buy our clothes from? There would have been no poverty and children dying on this planet if the West had wanted it to stop. But there are interests, higher and more valuable than life and dignity.
Allow me to say something over this "US trying to remake Middle-East". Who on earth invited the US to remake anything and anyone? I am fed up with the stuff "US is going to save the world" and the terrorist-fighting excuses! Why cannot US government mind their own business? For God's sake, have you realized that hundreds of "inferior" (to you maybe) people in Iraq are duying every year and relatives are mourning over the dead? Why so much pain and misery? Because a mad man wants to remake his neighbor's house while his own is full of filth and suffering.
No one is better than the person next to him and no culture is superior. Middle East has problems and ugly or unhuman institutions but countries in the West also face major social, financial, moral problems. Little children may be raped in "countries of the Third World" but little children are also raped in our modern and progressive West! A woman's life is not respected in the Middle East, but women are not respected in the West, too. We may hide our problems under spot lights and fancy gadgets, but we cannot make them disappear. Should we remake ourselves first and then "save" the rest of the world? However, we should knock on the door first before we enter.
Have a nice day and I am sorry if I ofended someone's feelings, it wasn't my intention.
[This message has been edited by NourHayati (edited 02 September 2005).]
Well said! and i wholeheartedly agree with u!!! NourHayati thx for highlighting the truth of the matter! Its nice to know u!
Posts: 461 | From: Kelantan, Malaysia | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Western culture is not superior BUT it gives more people a chance at bettering their condition, albeit, in innovative ways to allow them to 'succeed' in theis life.
Western culture also engenders a different level of understanding, not necessarily better. At least, people can strike back at their 'oppressors' in their own way and still feel consoled by their action.
quote:Originally posted by NourHayati: No one is better than the person next to him
Do you understand what you read?
"To say that Western culture is superior is not to say that any particular person living in the West is superior to any person living elsewhere. That would be ridiculous. But it is equally ridiculous to deny that the moral standards, customs and beliefs of the West contribute to fairer and far more humane societies than are found elsewhere."
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: Humanism is always superior to Despotism
You do not have to be defensive towards me! We are making a dialogue here, we do not quarrel! Shouldn't you try to understand my point of view? And what humanism are you refering at? The one that leaves dead bodies eaten by rats in the streets of New Orleans? Or the one that does not allow to US citizens without social insurance to die because hospitals and the State deny to cover their expenses? The humanism that in the 21st century still considers black people in some states in the US "second class citizens"? Who are you trying to fool? At least people in Egypt do not die in the streets because there is always a family member to give a helping hand.
If we stick to the US (and with this I do not mean to attack the country or its people, I am just giving facts), does it have a valuable, superior culture? What culture, man? USA's past began when the Brits sent the convicts over there to empty the prisons! Or is MacDonalds and Thanks Giving Day a culture worth spreading? It sounds globalisation to me! All we are a happy, satisfied ONE!
I am sorry if I hurt someone's feelings, it was not my intention, honestly. But I am fed up with this "superiority" and "saving the world thing"! Open your eyes, guys! Do not hesitate to put under investigation standard ideas and persons!
As about this "no one is better that the person next to him", you did not understand it, I think. How is it possible that a person who lives in a "superior/better" society does not feel "superior/better" towards others? We carry our culture wherever we go, don't we?
[This message has been edited by NourHayati (edited 03 September 2005).]
posted
Every culture has its negative and positive aspects, and everyone is entitled to its own culture and uniqueness, as long as they dont infringe upon the rights of others. Your culture has many positive aspects, but also many negative. The problem is that you do nothing to correct the negative aspects of your culture, you accept them and you are content with it. But what about the rights of unbelievers, children, minorities, women, etc. Your culture lacks self criticism and creates problems for the rest of the world. For Muslims all land that are not under the Islamic rule are dar al harb (land of war). Then they will start Jihad and try to convert those countries into dar al Islam (land of Islam) by terrorism, war and force. Did you know that Sheikh Raid Sallah, the head of the islamic movement in Israel, called on president Bush to convert to Islam and thus solve all problems connected with the dramatic terrorist attacks on the United States? http://www.annaqed.com/english/news/miracle_of_islam.html
At a rally in the Arab town of Tamra, he reiterated his call Oct. 26: "Oh, peoples of the West ... we say to you: We are the masters of the world and we are the repository of all good (in the world), because we are the 'the best people, delivered for mankind' (sura 3:1). We do not hesitate. Oh Bush and (British Prime Minister Tony) Blair: We invite you to Islam; enter Islam, you and your peoples." Can't you see the underlying message? The underlying message is: We have started our Jihad against you infidels and will not rest until we convert the West to Dar al Islam.
In the words of Ibn Warraq, "Respect for other cultures, for other values than our own, is a hallmark of a civilized society. But Multiculturalism is based on some fundamental misconceptions. First, there is the erroneous and sentimental belief that all cultures, deep down, have the same values; or, at least, if different, are equally worthy of respect. But the truth is that not all cultures have the same values, and not all values are worthy of respect. There is nothing sacrosanct about customs or cultural traditions: they can change under criticism. After all, the secularist values of the West are not much more than two hundred years old.
If these other values are destructive of our own cherished values, are we not justified in fighting them both by intellectual means, that is by reason and argument, and criticism, and by legal means, by making sure the laws and constitution of the country are respected by all? It becomes a duty to defend those values that we would live by. But here western intellectuals have sadly failed in defending western values, such as rationalism, social pluralism, human rights, the rule of law, representative government, individualism (in the sense that every individual counts, and no individual should be sacrificed for some utopian future collective end), freedom of expression, freedom of and from religion, the rights of minorities, and so on.."
As you see the Islamic values are completely distinct from ours. See how the Sheikh Raid was emboldened after few of his coreligionists murdered 3000 people on sep 11 tragedy to call upon Bush and Blair and their people to convert to Islam! This kind of boldness baffles those who are not familiar with Islamic values. but those of us who know better know that Muslims believe that their murders are the victories given to them by Allah and the more they kill the more their faith in Allah is strengthened as they see in these bloodsheds a clear sign that Allah is on their side. Islam is a very primitive cult with a very primitive mindset. Take a close look at this verse:
So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.017
See how the Prophet "credited" God for his own murders! So a Muslim who kills in the name of Allah, honestly believes this was the act of God and he was a mere instrument fulfilling the will of God. Other Muslims do not condemn him for his crimes either (though they may pay lip service to the westerners to appease them). They praise Allah for being so powerful in subduing his enemies. What you call a terrorist attack to a Muslim is a holy act of Jihad. This idiosyncrasy is inconceivable for those who are not familiar with Islam.
posted
You really think that America went to Iraq to protect the world from terrorists and give the Iraqi people freedom of democracy?? Come on, everybody knows there were no weopons and how is their harmonious and free democracy going? More people are dying in Iraq everyday since the US invasion, just last week over 1000 people died in a siungle day. This is what democracy has brought Iraq.
How many people suffer from depression and/or commit suicide in western countries...what about the middle east, South East asia and South America. It is negligable.
America is exploiting the resources of Developing countries by making threats and controlling their international trade. They bring in Multinational corporations force the countries to ask for little or no taxes and make changes to their system in ways that benefit their companies...including forcing governments to take away money from essential services such as health and education...these occurances go on and on.
And how civilised is the reation to the hurricane in New Orleans? A terrible tradedy has occured and people are taking advantage of the chaos and resorting to rape, theft and murder. If this happened anywhere but the US people would be blaming the system and saying that the people are uncivilised...but not the US right? It is a natural reaction to such a tragedy.
You can not take 2 examples and from there say western society is better that Eastern. There are many aspects of developing countries that are much better than Western. Peoples love for their family, the way people interact socially. There are a lot of Rape cases in the west that are not reported and there a lot of poor girls who resort to prostituion.
Oh and by the way..what has America done to fight the fact the president Bush manipulated his way into parliament. What about the enviroments many African american and poor Americans are living in? What about the controlled media accessed by those living far from cities? What about obecity problems? How do you know that there are not people trying to change the problems in Eastern countries? People are trying but is is not so simple to change beliefs that have been ingrained for thousands of years. If you really care then go to these places and do your bit to help intead of just talking oin the internet.
posted
´As about this "no one is better that the person next to him", you did not understand it, I think. How is it possible that a person who lives in a "superior/better" society does not feel "superior/better" towards others?´
I do not feel superior to anyone. I judge people by their character, not by their religion. I just wish Muslims would do the same.
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: ´As about this "no one is better that the person next to him", you did not understand it, I think. How is it possible that a person who lives in a "superior/better" society does not feel "superior/better" towards others?´
I do not feel superior to anyone. I judge people by their character, not by their religion. I just wish Muslims would do the same.
Now you gave me a good laugh! you judge ppl by their acts huh?? You blame islam for everything! You are such a blind person! You dont care how muslims are for real, Or WHAT Islam is for real. You care about what you like to hear and see. If you really cared you would have READ the quran. and actually seen some other sites then this racist-hate islam BS sites! and second of all. You dont care about women. SO PLEASE dont give me this feminist talk. YOU DONT CARE! if you cared you would at least stopped your typing for a minute and reache your hand to help those women who are in need of help! But you hate and you hate and you hate. thats all you seem to be good at. And those women that you are talking about that are being raped in Iraq, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM! Get it in your head now! Its CULTURE CULTURE CULTURE! and dont tell me it orginates from islam..DONT EVEN TRY! it originates from Saddams time where his son Odey used to rape women DAY AND NIGHT and let his soldiers rape them too and throw them naked in the streets! ANd its because of the prisoners that saddam took out before he was taken off his chair! who were thiefs, murderers and rapers! And if you talk about the ladies will be ruined forever. TELL WHO IN IRAQ ARENT RUINED FOREVER!! you are talking about a country that has been on endless wars in 30 years now! where they have lived in fear for 30 years! where every family has 2 or 3 family members who died in these 30 years (if not more than that!). And guess what, There was NOO JIHAD HERE! cause the ppl who are dying here are ALL MUSLIMS! the thing that are happening here is pure politics...the stinking garbage politics... and Iraq is the biggest playground for all scumbags in the world! including your dear president bush!
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: Western culture is not superior BUT it gives more people a chance at bettering their condition, albeit, in innovative ways to allow them to 'succeed' in theis life.
Western culture also engenders a different level of understanding, not necessarily better. At least, people can strike back at their 'oppressors' in their own way and still feel consoled by their action.
I guess it is impossible to measure civilisations and cultures objectively because their orientations and objectives can be very different. So I agree with you that western culture is *successful* but not necessarily superior.
quote:Originally posted by Serendipity: You blame islam for everything! You are such a blind person! You dont care how muslims are for real, Or WHAT Islam is for real. You care about what you like to hear and see. If you really cared you would have READ the quran
You say that I blame it for everything, but Islam IS everything, it is an ideology that controls every aspect of life. Islam is at its core a lie. The best way to confront a lie is to expose it.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kafir4 ever: [b]Two recent news stories illustrate one of the unmentionables of modern life -- namely, that Western culture is superior to others. As the United States is now engaged in a protracted and expensive effort to remake the Middle East, we ought to be clear about what we are doing and why.
Oh my gosh....i never actually thought of it like that. Oh kafir4ever you are so wise and we muslims are so ignorant and in the dark. My your god Comrade Bush and his disciples in the U.N shower praises and rewards on you for your valiant efforts of trying to bring light to all the "darkened" areas of the world. in my naivety before I meet you I thought it was all about a facist hippocratic regime with a "reformed " alcoholic at its head whose daddy was once boss,trying to enforce thier false and misplaced ideas on everyone else in much the same way that the Nazi's did. I thought these people learnt from the Nazi's and they have taken wealth and power to be thier gods. ohh how could i have been so blind.....these christian master's want only the best for all of us,thats why they committed GENOCIDE in america against the true inhabitants of that land,so a nation built on murder,the rape of local inhabitants,the theft of the resorces,the nazi idea that the anglo saxon breed is superior was all for the good of mankind. I see it so clearly now, hollywood with all its pornography is for the betterment of mankind,las vegas where unthinkable things take place is superior to any other place in the world ohhh kafir where have you been my whole life. The blood of the men,women and children of vietnam was for the liberation of......what was it for again?? Oh kafir please continue to enlight us with the quotes that have been written by your gods and continue to show us the way of your false doctrines that are based on deception and mass hypnotism. Please "liberate" Iraq like you liberated Vietnam and bring freedom to it like your predecessors did in the land of the red indian.... Wait a minute....I just thought of something,didn't your nation go home with its tail in between its legs in Vietnam.... with all your "superior" technology are not the taliban still whipping your red necked behinds, hey whats happening in Iraq....how come I only see liberation in fortified zones and the blood of your pig like soldiers is spilt everyday. Sure we have dead to but our dead go to paradise and your dead go to hell,or america which is much the same thing...hey come to think of it keep your superiority which once said not more than 40 years ago a black man and a white man could not sit in the same bus together. Send my regards to your god comrade bush and I just had a brilliant idea.....why not enlighten america instead of irrating muslims who at the end of the day will never change thier ways and walk from light into the darkness of the infidels and the retards with names like kafir4ever.
[This message has been edited by braveheart (edited 03 September 2005).]
Posts: 39 | From: United Kindom | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: You say that I blame it for everything, but Islam IS everything, it is an ideology that controls every aspect of life. Islam is at its core a lie. The best way to confront a lie is to expose it.
There you admit it! You dont care about ANYTHING ELSE.. You have lot sof hate and islam is your substitute! why dont you buy yourself a boxing bag and then you can take out your anger on it a better soultion than your tehory about islam ENJOY!
quote:Originally posted by Serendipity: HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM! Get it in your head now! Its CULTURE CULTURE CULTURE! and dont tell me it orginates from islam..DONT EVEN TRY!
You keep saying that but you do not explain how the “cultural” traditions and interpretations to which you object arose in Islamic countries. What molds the cultural traditions and interpretations of Muslims if it isn’t Islam? After what did Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Iran model their laws and fashion their mores besides Islam? The Islamic attitude toward women is properly reflected to the precise extent that any country’s legal system approximates the theoretical ideal of Islamic law, the Sharia. Look at Saudi Arabia,Iran, Pakistan,Sudan. It is only in those Muslim countries that are the least Muslim that women have had a chance for a more decent existence.
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: You keep saying that but you do not explain how the “cultural” traditions and interpretations to which you object arose in Islamic countries. What molds the cultural traditions and interpretations of Muslims if it isn’t Islam? After what did Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Iran model their laws and fashion their mores besides Islam? The Islamic attitude toward women is properly reflected to the precise extent that any country’s legal system approximates the theoretical ideal of Islamic law, the Sharia. Look at Saudi Arabia,Iran, Pakistan,Sudan. It is only in those Muslim countries that are the least Muslim that women have had a chance for a more decent existence.
Ok dont change the subject here, I was talking about IRAQ. IRAAAAAQ! You know quite well what is happening in Iraq now has nothing to do with islam. ITS POLITICS! P O L I T I C S! Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran and God knows what other places you want to mention here, has nothing related to IRAQ. And again, they are making THEIR OWN RULES that will benefit themselves, and keep them on their chair that they love so much! Next time you wanna discuss and you open a topic about a country or about a specific subject. DONT jump to another one, when you cant argue anymore. Thats just low and shows that you dont have any clue of what you are talking about.
posted
And again DID YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST??? if you had read it you would see that ISLAM had nothing to do with the rapes. And again, what about the rapes in Thailand, China, Congo, Zimbabwe and the rest of the world that has nothing to do with Islam. Do you think that they got "inspired" by Islam? or what exactly? what about women that sell themselves? are islam to blame? What about women that get tortured and sold, in many NON islamic countries. What about children that gets sold in China? Is islam to blame? what about the poor ppl all over the world, that doesnt have enough water or food to eat and die at the moment we are speaking. IS ISLAM TO BLAME?
And you say Islam is an ideology that participates in every part of a person life. ANd OH yeah And The US arent doing that already???!!! give me a break! your arguments are really not worthy of even to dicuss with you. you dont know what you're talkinga bout. Go home read your history books and come back again
posted
No rape is not exclusively Islamic, the reaction (to rape)is. Read the article again. It says: (But perhaps *worse* than the rape itself was the *response* of her family.
Like many pre-modern societies, Iraqis live by a shame-honor system. "For a woman's family, all this is worse than death," Dr. Khulud Younis, an Iraqi gynecologist, told the Times. "They will face shame. If a woman (rape victim) has a sister, her future will be gone.")
Family honor is one of the core values of Arab society. Anything from speaking with an unrelated man, to rumored premarital loss of virginity, to an extra marital affair, refuses forced marriages, marry according to their will or even women and girls who have been raped can stain or destroy the family honor. Therefore, family members (parents, brothers, or sisters) kill the victim in order to remove the stain or maintain, and protect the honor of the family. Killers are given light sentences, sometimes with little or no jail time at all. The killers mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Quran and Islam. Family guardian will say that they are merely following the directives set down in their Islamic ethical beliefs. In 100% of cases—the killers have no animosity, rather they love the girl as their own daughter or sister, but they kill the girl anyway upon their ethical compulsion to save their family honor.
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: No rape is not exclusively Islamic, the reaction (to rape)is. Read the article again. It says: (But perhaps *worse* than the rape itself was the *response* of her family.
Like many pre-modern societies, Iraqis live by a shame-honor system. "For a woman's family, all this is worse than death," Dr. Khulud Younis, an Iraqi gynecologist, told the Times. "They will face shame. If a woman (rape victim) has a sister, her future will be gone.")
Family honor is one of the core values of Arab society. Anything from speaking with an unrelated man, to rumored premarital loss of virginity, to an extra marital affair, refuses forced marriages, marry according to their will or even women and girls who have been raped can stain or destroy the family honor. Therefore, family members (parents, brothers, or sisters) kill the victim in order to remove the stain or maintain, and protect the honor of the family. Killers are given light sentences, sometimes with little or no jail time at all. The killers mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Quran and Islam. Family guardian will say that they are merely following the directives set down in their Islamic ethical beliefs. In 100% of cases—the killers have no animosity, rather they love the girl as their own daughter or sister, but they kill the girl anyway upon their ethical compulsion to save their family honor.
And I dtold you why that happens in Iraq...Gosh do you even read my posts. I told you that how this whole thing started and WHY they are reacting in that way. ANd again It has NOTHING to do with Islam. Cause in Iraq. we have not only islam. we have hundreds of diff religions. do you get it? and why they react that way. go back to my post and read again what I wrote. ITS ALL CULTURE and its all about that with 30 years of hell you tend to get like this.What are you speaking about rape. A human life is not valued there for goodness sake. do you think rape will be even mentioned? for three days ago, 650 ppl died in iraq. do you think rape is the only problem there. But sorry to dissapoint you here. Nothing to do with islam. BUt everything to do with Politics. And everything to do with the fact that there are no laws which help to protect the ppl there. No matter if you want or not. Get it now. or do I have to repeat myself a thousand times.
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: No rape is not exclusively Islamic, the reaction (to rape)is. Read the article again. It says: (But perhaps *worse* than the rape itself was the *response* of her family.
Like many pre-modern societies, Iraqis live by a shame-honor system. "For a woman's family, all this is worse than death," Dr. Khulud Younis, an Iraqi gynecologist, told the Times. "They will face shame. If a woman (rape victim) has a sister, her future will be gone.")
Family honor is one of the core values of Arab society. Anything from speaking with an unrelated man, to rumored premarital loss of virginity, to an extra marital affair, refuses forced marriages, marry according to their will or even women and girls who have been raped can stain or destroy the family honor. Therefore, family members (parents, brothers, or sisters) kill the victim in order to remove the stain or maintain, and protect the honor of the family. Killers are given light sentences, sometimes with little or no jail time at all. The killers mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Quran and Islam. Family guardian will say that they are merely following the directives set down in their Islamic ethical beliefs. In 100% of cases—the killers have no animosity, rather they love the girl as their own daughter or sister, but they kill the girl anyway upon their ethical compulsion to save their family honor.
and so you just know, those who does stuff like this in Iraq. Arent religious ppl. They are ppl mostly who cannot read or write. Who live only by their culture. And surely hasnt prayed a day in their life. and if they did, they havent even read the quran. and No you are wrong, they cant blame the quran or islam for this. If they tried, belive me the whole village would attack them for that thing. Its a BIG no no. You can blame anything, but to blame Islam..that would be really ridiculous! The whole village would laugh at your face!
quote:Originally posted by Serendipity: And I dtold you why that happens in Iraq...Gosh do you even read my posts.
no sara singaporian racisforever doesnt read your posts. no matter how logical you are or how constructive your argument is he doesn't even read. before he even opens the thread he has already cut a response from some site, and is ready to paste it here. it funny you know. because i don't believe in either christianity of jeudism, but you don't find me on christian or jewish sites cutting and pasting the crap out of everyone. you know why? because i'm confident in islam, my religion, and i don't feel the need to make myself better by attacking others. only people who are not confident in their beliefs do that. like racists for example, they are never confident in their beliefs because as you know their beliefs are ridicolous. so basically sara no, racistforever is not listening to you
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kafir4 ever: You say that I blame it for everything, but Islam IS everything, it is an ideology that controls every aspect of life. Islam is at its core a lie. The best way to confront a lie is to expose it.
Culture is not only religion, it is history, way of life, traditions, etc. So do not refer only to religious belief when you want to talk about culture. As about Islam being a lie, do not say this again, darling. If a religion is a lie, then we should talk about Christianity. Being afraid of losing the subject here, I should say that Christianity is the biggest lie ever been on earth. Its core belief is a big, scary lie. If you could read my language, I would recommend a book or two written by people who have searched into the Gospels that were rejected by the Church because of their way of descibing Jesus' life. Which means they hid the truth and let the lie spread out because of simple interest. All those religious wars throughout history (i.e. the Crusades), all those people lost because of a truth that is not truth, do you imagine how serious this lie has been? Religion is a weapon to the hands of these people who want to satisfy their interests. So you have no right to call Islam a lie, if you knew what I know, you would commit suicide!
By the way, I am not from the Middle East region and I am not a Muslim. I am a Westerner like you who judges her own culture as well
posted
I am not Muslim but i have begun reading the quran and some historical books on Islam..somethin you should do if you want to throw out ignrant argument like the ones you have been giving. Actually Islam liberated women in Arabian societies; people were burying their female children alive because women were so useless and shameful one of the many practices Islam condemmed. As in all societies in the world men have taken themselves to be more powerful and riteous...Islam doesnt tell them this. Sure Some idoits use things in the wrong way to gain power but they are not true believers and god will know their minds...it is not islam that gives them this power. If your society is so free and all opportunities are available shouldn't you be given the opportunity actually make an educated and informed argument instead of coming onto a topic page with a a majority of muslims and offending people with ignorant comments.
You are totally fooled by american propaganda...it really is sad. [QUOTE]Originally posted by kafir4 ever: [B] You keep saying that but you do not explain how the “cultural” traditions and interpretations to which you object arose in Islamic countries. What molds the cultural traditions and interpretations of Muslims if it isn’t Islam?
posted
Actually in Islam you should not make public (not including informing police) something like rape in order to protect the girl...this reaction is not Islam it is culture
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kafir4 ever: [B]No rape is not exclusively Islamic, the reaction (to rape)is. Read the article again. It says: (But perhaps *worse* than the rape itself was the *response* of her family.
Like many pre-modern societies, Iraqis live by a shame-honor system. "For a woman's family, all this is worse than death," Dr. Khulud Younis, an Iraqi gynecologist, told the Times. "They will face shame. If a woman (rape victim) has a sister, her future will be gone.")
quote:Originally posted by Nicole20: I am not Muslim but i have begun reading the quran and some historical books on Islam..somethin you should do if you want to throw out ignrant argument like the ones you have been giving. Actually Islam liberated women in Arabian societies; people were burying their female children alive because women were so useless and shameful one of the many practices Islam condemmed.
One thing Muslims love to do is is to fool themselves. Muslims believe that Islam improved the status of women. This is a total lie. . It actually denigrated them instead of elevating them. There are many proofs to that and one of the evidences can be found in this hadith. Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
As you see here Umar is complaining that while the people of Quraish, used to have “authority” over their women, since they came to Medina they noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men. Mecca was a religious hub. In all religious centers, often fanaticism overrides commonsense and wherever religion has a stronger grip, women are discriminated. Mecca was no exception. It was natural that women in Mecca had a lower status than their Jews and Ansari counterparts and when they encountered the liberty that the women of Medina enjoyed, they wanted it too. This of course did not sit well with Umar and Muhammad, the two misogynist men of Mecca. The above conversation between these two central figures of Islam clearly shows that they were not pleased to see their wives getting used and enjoying the taste of freedom.
[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 04 September 2005).]
posted
Oh Kafirwhatever, You are soo clever! Oh wise one, glorify our day with your cut and paste posts ..they give us sooo much knowledge! (NOT)
Posts: 2519 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
We, the people of quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the ansar, we noticed that the ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the ansari women. Once i shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and i disliked that she should answer me back. She said, 'Why do you take it ill that I retort upon you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet retort upon him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day till night.' What she said scared me and I said to her, 'Whoever amongst them does so, will be a great loser.' …[/QUOTE]
It takes time for peoples attitudes and traditions to change...this quote is saying that Mohammeds wifes did have the right to answer back so Mohammed allowed this behaviour right? Is not what mohammed did more important that the average man?
Again, read the quran, tradition and culture are not what islam is about, really. It is better for your mind if you knew the truth. And seriously, why do you come to a predominantly muslim website saying things like this? Is it not crude and offensive. Really come to Egypt and fight for womens rights dont just slag people and religion. I am Australian and living in Egypt and some friends and i have started a womens rights organisation tackling different issues. If you really care, come and help, if you cant come to Egypt we are looking for funding...the question is, do you care??
[b]We, the people of quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the ansar, we noticed that the ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the ansari women. Once i shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and i disliked that she should answer me back. She said, 'Why do you take it ill that I retort upon you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet retort upon him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day till night.' What she said scared me and I said to her, 'Whoever amongst them does so, will be a great loser.' …
It takes time for peoples attitudes and traditions to change...this quote is saying that Mohammeds wifes did have the right to answer back so Mohammed allowed this behaviour right? Is not what mohammed did more important that the average man?
Again, read the quran, tradition and culture are not what islam is about, really. It is better for your mind if you knew the truth. And seriously, why do you come to a predominantly muslim website saying things like this? Is it not crude and offensive. Really come to Egypt and fight for womens rights dont just slag people and religion. I am Australian and living in Egypt and some friends and i have started a womens rights organisation tackling different issues. If you really care, come and help, if you cant come to Egypt we are looking for funding...the question is, do you care??
[/B][/QUOTE]
hey nicole, how are you? i'm marrying an australian and moving to austrlia inshallah in january. i would really like to ask you about a few things about australia. can you email me at yasminefathy@hotmail.com ? i would realy appreciate it
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic