quote:Originally posted by egyguy: If you're harassed all the time Ms, then it must be something you're doing wrong
Sure, how could it be otherwise. Since I'm the woman it MUST somehow be my fault.
Strange only, that every single women I know must be doing the same things wrong then.
And, no, I don't get harassed that frequently anymore because I moved to a different area where harassment is much less common. But for years harassment would be pretty much a daily issue; I was never able to just walk the streets absentmindedly or even just go to the store around the corner without getting stares and comments.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: nd those so infuriated by Hijab should just shove it really
I'm not *infuriated* about hijab at all, but about the stupid emotional blackmail he is pulling on women.
Men have been given the Friday prayer, and women have been given hijab instead. A woman going out without hijab will accumulate countless sins. If the woman was guided on the right path and protected her modesty, then society would also be on the right path. The hijab is the most important thing in a woman's life!
From where does he get this nonsense and how come people believe it?!?
Ehmm, from the Koran. Don't get me wrong. I'm not really religious myself. But you can't have it both ways. If you're religious, that's what it says in the book.
As an Egyptian male, I have to admit. Neither I, nor any of my friends would approach a veiled girl who "is not looking for attention". We all know what that means.
Yes, a woman in proper Hijab is not approachable. I do believe in this.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Ehmm, from the Koran.
None of this is in the Qur'an.
The most important thing in a woman's life is the Hijab. ...
The sister who does not want to put the hijab on is not submitted to Allah. ...
Everyday you go out, and with every man that looks at your hair and your body, you gather sins, is that true or not? Of course you take sins because you didn't obey Allah's command. You'll might argue, 'It's not my fault, my intentions are good, it's the man that will take sins for looking at me.' No sister. He will take sins for looking at you, that’s true. But he looked at you, in the first place, because you were attracting attention. ...
The Prophet (PBUH) said, "A group of women will never enter paradise. They are those who wear tight, revealing clothes and do not listen to Allah's command of wearing the hijab. Not only will they not enter paradise, but they will not even smell its scent, although you can smell paradise from a 500-year distance".
Allah ordered mankind to do some works that would remind the people without words. Men were given the Friday Congregational Prayer (Jumu’a) and fighting for the sake of Allah and women were ordered to wear hijab; to put it on, walk in the streets, and through it she would remind people of Allah without speaking. ...
It is our hope to remind people of Islam everywhere. Everyone sees you in hijab and you get a reward without talking or making any effort, just for being seen by people! If a person sees you, a good deed is written for you. If a thousand people see you, a thousand good deeds will be written. Therefore, in just one day in which you run your daily errands, you can get the blessings that no man can get even if he prays in a mosque.
Therefore the subject of hijab is very important because it acts as a reminder of Islam and you are responsible for it.
Of course I'm not saying that taking off the hijab isn't a sin. Taking off the hijab is the biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin. It's the biggest sin, because you would be encouraging other women to do the same. Never ever do this please. Allah (SWT) would hate that.
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Egyguy explain please a girl is "looking for attention" ...maybe we don´t all know what that means...
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: As an Egyptian male, I have to admit. Neither I, nor any of my friends would approach a veiled girl who "is not looking for attention". We all know what that means.
Yes, a woman in proper Hijab is not approachable. I do believe in this.
Interesting. So a woman who is not wearing a "proper hijab", whatever that means in your definition, will get harassed by you and your friends?
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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weird thought that just popped into my mind. and I know that I am gonna get nailed for this, but I really wanna know what makes someone tick. here goes........ If you are an egyptian male, and can understand what is being said to various women on the streets or in the malls, and you hear this crap spewing from the mouths of these men - have you ever said anything to your friends or buddies that are doing the harassing? or to a stranger? and why not? cuz you go along with it? you are afraid to stand out and be a decent man?
whats up with that? am assuming that you know that it is not right.
Posts: 1103 | From: 6th of October | Registered: Jun 2007
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Listen, we used to pick up girls from Gamat El Diwal mostly (just because it was close to where we lived). Some of these girls were Veiled, but you could tell. You know, the walk, the way she looks around. It's quite obvious she is looking for a hook up. Listen, I don't want to be superficial here. Are women somehow, someway mistreated in Egypt. Yes, but again. I went to college and mingled with the veiled and non veiled. A woman makes her presence period. All this whining mostly for the sake of some bitches who crave attention is pointless.
Hijab done properly is a good thing. No Hijab but a good presence does the same.
It's a different culture here. And women are the subject of attention anywhere. Why do women pay no cover charge at the clubs around here. Because they're the center of the sausage fest that takes place.
Let's get real.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: A woman makes her presence period. All this whining mostly for the sake of some bitches who crave attention is pointless.
Hijab done properly is a good thing. No Hijab but a good presence does the same.
You're very obviously not a woman and have no clue what you're talking about.
And there's a huge difference whether a girl walks down Gameat ad-Dowal or a different street, I'd say. For those not familar with Cairo ... it's a main street in Mohandesseen that has been one of the centers of street prostitution for a long time. And it's particularly busy in summer when the Arabs are in town. So, as mentioned earlier, walking down there on your own will inevitably be mistaken by many guys.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: A woman makes her presence period. All this whining mostly for the sake of some bitches who crave attention is pointless.
Hijab done properly is a good thing. No Hijab but a good presence does the same.
You're very obviously not a woman and have no clue what you're talking about.
And there's a huge difference whether a girl walks down Gameat ad-Dowal or a different street, I'd say. For those not familar with Cairo ... it's a main street in Mohandesseen that has been one of the centers of street prostitution for a long time. And it's particularly busy in summer when the Arabs are in town. So, as mentioned earlier, walking down there on your own will inevitably be mistaken by many guys.
Why don't you post a pic (you can black out the face). Let's assess your everyday outwear. Better yet, a video, so that we can assess the walk?
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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I don't think I need my outfit assessed by lowlifes who pick up women from the street.
I've explained many times on this board what kind of clothes I wear, it's sufficient to say there's nothing even remotely provocative about them. And I would be hard-pressed to manage that hip-swinging walk that seems to be so typical for many young Egyptian women.
Even if I wear a potato sack I will stand out because I'm simply too tall, too slim, too white-skinned and blue-eyed to blend in.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: I don't think I need my outfit assessed by lowlifes who pick up women from the street.
I've explained many times on this board what kind of clothes I wear, it's sufficient to say there's nothing even remotely provocative about them.
Even if I wear a potato sack I will stand out because I'm simply too tall, too slim, too white-skinned and blue-eyed to blend in.
Me and the family I come from are of a class you could never attain lady.
Yes, sorry, but it's you. Maybe it's your attitude that stinks badly enough to attract the horny. Or do you walk around looking all western and superior??? Sure they would love to **** you!
Yes, comes from a low life who knows which one is out for a pick up.
And thanks for validating my point. A couple of comment and you already came out with the white skin, blue eye ****. I knew it. You look for attention and validation and then come over here to complain about it.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Egyguy if what you say is true and you come from a good family then why the abusive language? It does not give a good impression of you and is totally unneccesary... I think there is much more acceptable ways to make your point... Posts: 1797 | From: By my husband's side | Registered: Nov 2007
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Of course, I am secretly enjoying the harassment, like all women who complain about it.
I've noticed that's the typical attitude. Face a harasser and tell him you think he is scum and he will start acting all insulted because you've rejected his *compliments*, and, after all, weren't you just asking for it by being out on the street with your hair uncovered? I mean, that alone already is sufficient proof that you're actually craving all that attention, no?
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Of course, I am secretly enjoying the harassment, like all women who complain about it.
I've noticed that's the typical attitude. Face a harasser and tell him you think he is scum and he will start acting all insulted because you've rejected his *compliments*, and, after all, weren't you just asking by it by being out on the street with your hair uncovered? I mean, that alone already is sufficient proof that you're actually craving all that attention, no?
Don't give yourself too much credit! You've actually validated my image of you by referring to your blue eyes and slim figure - no compliment lady, plenty of that everywhere.
So, thank you for coming out and speaking your mind. Phewww, that was easy!
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Habeeby: Egyguy if what you say is true and you come from a good family then why the abusive language?
The question is -- what is a *good family*?
For some it just means that daddy has enough money to buy them a new Toyota with which they can drive around and pick up girls. Since Egypt is such a class-oriented society, there are enough girls who will do that, so those guys can congratulate themselves on their coolness and their success with the female gender.
I've dented quite a few cars of guys like this. If someone pulls up beside me and asks me in, he will get a kick in the door or a knock in the mirror.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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You should no better girl thn to tell an Arab that you have blonde hair and blue eyes you know this is the appearance of easy women
See you just crave attention go poke your eyes out and dye your hair woman... Lol
Posts: 1797 | From: By my husband's side | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: You've actually validated my image of you by referring to your blue eyes and slim figure - no compliment lady, plenty of that everywhere.
Who said anything about compliments? The fact that you suppose someone with blue eyes and white skin might feel special or superior says way more about you than it does about me. And I highly doubt that slim is regarded as attractive by the majority of Egyptian men out on the street.
My point was that I am easily recognizable as a non-Egyptian, and as such I am being judged and approached differently by many people, particularly men.
I don't feel that different or special. I have two arms, two legs and only one head. Even my hair and my eyebrows are black, and when I first moved here I was convinced I wouldn't stand out that much at all. But people here make you feel like an alien if you look even slightly different than the norm. And that goes for everyone, certainly not just foreigners. I had a colleague who was constantly being teased because of her figure (she was very slim) by complete strangers, another one who constantly gets nasty or ridiculing comments because she has long curls and wears them open, another friend of mine is half Sudanese, he gets really nasty comments ... and so on. Not to mention my Egyptian male friends who dare to wear their hair longer than the norm.
Sometimes, when there are groups of children or teenagers staring or pointing their fingers at me ("Bussi, el agnabia! Bussi, el agnabia!") I turn around and ask them whether they've never seen a woman before. That usually does the trick ... they either start laughing or they get really shocked and run away. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Habeeby: You should no better girl thn to tell an Arab that you have blonde hair and blue eyes you know this is the appearance of easy women
Believe it or not, I've even tried dark contacts.
And just for the record: I'm not even remotely blonde!!!
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: You've actually validated my image of you by referring to your blue eyes and slim figure - no compliment lady, plenty of that everywhere.
Who said anything about compliments? The fact that you suppose someone with blue eyes and white skin might feel special or superior says way more about you than it does about me. And I highly doubt that slim is regarded as attractive by the majority of Egyptian men out on the street.
My point was that I am easily recognizable as a non-Egyptian, and as such I am being judged and approached differently by many people, particularly men.
I don't feel that different or special. I have two arms, two legs and only one head. Even my hair and my eyebrows are black, and when I first moved here I was convinced I wouldn't stand out that much at all. But people here make you feel like an alien if you look even slightly different than the norm. And that goes for everyone, certainly not just foreigners. I had a colleague who was constantly being teased because of her figure (she was very slim) by complete strangers, another one who constantly gets nasty or ridiculing comments because she has long curls and wears them open, another friend of mine is half Sudanese, he gets really nasty comments ... and so on. Not to mention my Egyptian male friends who dare to wear their hair longer than the norm.
Sometimes, when there are groups of children or teenagers staring or pointing their fingers at me ("Bussi, el agnabia! Bussi, el agnabia!") I turn around and ask them whether they've never seen a woman before. That usually does the trick ... they either start laughing or they get really shocked and run away.
OK, let me get serious for a minute and point out a couple of things for you. In case you're not aware already.
Egypt is not an immigrant based society. OK. So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around. Hence the alien feeling and standing out.
Now being perceived and approached differently - if I understand what you're hinting and I think I do - can't be blamed on the ignorance of Egyptians. You do realize the image that western media portray of western women ... no need to further clarify here.
Also, the fact that there are plenty of women visiting the popular resorts to have some fun :wink: wink: doesn't help either.
I had a friend whose life plan was to get a visa through marriage to an Italian lady. She had to be Italian because he wanted to move to Italy. Quite laughable, but he had it all figured out and the place of action was to be Sharm. He went away and we never heard of him until months later. From Rome that is.
Now, I have to point out the fact that you might have been a bit mean to those kids. They said "Agnabia", you returned and said woman. I still stand my ground. You somehow see yourself as more of a woman - a desirable one that is - than most Egyptian women. I have no problem with that. I would still ask for a pic to validate claim please.
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Btw, it also makes a difference if the man with you is Egyptian or a foreigner. If he's a foreigner, you will still get harassed by some people.
TRUE.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around.
Not true. Areas like Mohandseen and Zamalek are literally plastered with foreigners and yet these people - especially women - have to deal with intense harassment.
Would like to hear some opinions from male Western expats living in Cairo and how do the view the situation? Do they get harassed too by Egyptians - males and females??
F.e. I experienced numerous times that males would just bump into me on the sidewalk. This is not normal, is it?!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around.
F.e. I experienced numerous times that males would just bump into me on the sidewalk. This is not normal, is it?!
Are you sure you're not occupying the sidewalk all for yourself. You know, in Egypt sidewalks are sort of narrow!
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by jean_bean: If you are an egyptian male, and can understand what is being said to various women on the streets or in the malls, and you hear this crap spewing from the mouths of these men - have you ever said anything to your friends or buddies that are doing the harassing? or to a stranger? and why not? cuz you go along with it? you are afraid to stand out and be a decent man?
whats up with that? am assuming that you know that it is not right.
I will answer this, but I'd like to explain something about arab culture first that you might not be aware of; it is seen as a sign of great weakness to apologize here for absolutely anything, it will get you attacked more savagely.
The way people are here is that even if they're wrong, they will adopt an extremely belligerent attitude of "yea, I'm wrong, so what??" and try to project blame onto the other party to somehow absolve themselves.
Now, with regards to men harassing women here, it's usually a group of men with sub-standard personalities, weak beta males who cannabalize off of each other's depraved emotions, convincing themselves that "yea, she deserves it". It's pointless to say anything to them because;
1)it will fall on deaf ears, you'd have better luck explaining Heisenberg's Uncertainty Prinicple to a Dog.
and 2) most likely it would get you physically attacked; please note the age old correlation between sex & violence, that plays a big part here, I won't go into details coz I'd end up writing a thesis. I'll expound later.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, let me get serious for a minute and point out a couple of things for you. In case you're not aware already.
Egypt is not an immigrant based society. OK. So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around. Hence the alien feeling and standing out.
Now being perceived and approached differently - if I understand what you're hinting and I think I do - can't be blamed on the ignorance of Egyptians. You do realize the image that western media portray of western women ... no need to further clarify here.
Also, the fact that there are plenty of women visiting the popular resorts to have some fun :wink: wink: doesn't help either.
OK, I'll get serious for a minute as well.
I'm well aware of the fact that even though Cairo is a huge city, many of its inhabitants are not used to foreigners at all and that for some people it's simply an event to see one of these creatures in reality.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the image that Western media portrays of Western women", but I know that many people look at American TV series or movies, for example, and think what is being shown there is the reality. Scary ... but I guess we can hardly blame them. (Although I'd suggest they watch more DW ... it comes in Arabic, too. )
In addition, there is the constant brainwashing being done by some religious figures or institutions. It seems that bashing the West, and particularly the "position of Western women", has become a very popular way for many religious groups or individuals to make their points and define the supposed Muslim identity. Needless to say that most of their claims are far removed from reality and utterly ridiculous, but how are people to know if they have no way of checking it? If they are being told by their imam or in some religious pamphlets that every man in the West has a mistress and that women will go to bed with anyone who approaches them, that our countries are full of *bastards* and so on and so forth ... why should they not believe this?
So far, so bad. But I'm well aware of the fact that I, as an individual, can do little to change their perception. I can chose to live with it or leave the country, and since I love living here and the harassment is the only serious drawback, I chose to live with it. But that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes need to vent my frustrations.
I also moved to a different area which made a huge difference. I lived in a very crowded area, very close to Imbaba before, and it just seemed to me that people were in general much more aggressive there.
I do, however, try to counteract or not further feed this particular stereotype by my appearance or behaviour. But I doubt that it makes a big difference. I remember getting extremely upset one day during the Eid when I was walking along the corniche in Alex with a friend and we were being followed, harassed, groped etc. for hours while Egyptian girls walking alongside in provocative outfits etc. didn't get harassed at all and none of the countless people being around interfered. So it seems that when you're a foreigner, it doesn't matter how you dress or behave, the simple fact that you are a foreigner makes some people judge and treat you in a particular way. The only way to avoid this is to put on a veil, then the harassment decreases significantly.
As for women who visit the resorts ... well, I cringe when I read or hear about them, but I don't think their behaviour has a huge impact on the everyday man, woman and child on the street in Cairo. And people who work in the tourist industry seem to actually be more sensitive to how they can approach whom, maybe it just comes with their experience. For example, I love walking around downtown which many people despise because of the sleezebags hanging out there approaching women and trying to drag people into their perfume or papyrus stores. But I get very little harassment there because it seems most of those guys are able to see who lives here and is not approachable. I also usually get a very decent treatment from salesguys in the Khan although they see half-naked women on an almost daily basis and surely know a lot of stories ...
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Now, I have to point out the fact that you might have been a bit mean to those kids. They said "Agnabia", you returned and said woman. I still stand my ground. You somehow see yourself as more of a woman - a desirable one that is - than most Egyptian women. I have no problem with that. I would still ask for a pic to validate claim please.
Wow, you certainly have a way of picking on words and interpreting or misinterpreting them.
I've responded in different ways to those remarks. I have indeed said "inta mashuftesh agnabia (or khawageya) abl kidda". But the reason I sometimes chose to say "sitt" is because I am just that -- a human being, not so different from themselves. As you might have noticed from the form of the verb in what I wrote above, it is also girls giving me those stares and comments and pointed fingers.
How you conclude that by defining myself as a *woman*, I am implying I might be more desirable than Egyptian women is completely beyond me and again, probably says more about your personal view of women than about my view of myself. I find most Egyptian women quite beautiful, in fact I think most of them are way more attractive than myself, so I don't really understand what your point is here ...
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I have to admit that taking a walk down the streets of Cairo for a beautiful woman let alone an alien is quite a challenge.
However one does miss taking those walks. So much life out there!
I wish you ladies good luck. And I wouldn't need to tell you that if things get rough you just need to call out for help. Plenty of good guys out there to step up.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Hi EgyGuy. I am foreign and I wear hijab out of choice and it is something personal to me. However, whenever I go to Cairo I get some of the behavior some are talking about here. I am always with my husband but if I wander behind or ahead of him at any point and people think I'm alone, believe me, I get the harrassment, the stares, the comments, etc. I don't wear tight or revealing clothes, I don't swag my hips when I walk, and I don't look around for men to come hook up with me.
I'm not sure what the soceity here sees from Western media/movies but I can tell you this, I was never harrassed in the states in my entire life as much as I have been in 10 or so times I have been in Cairo. That is quite telling. Not that it is any man's fault here, it is what it is. I just wish more Egyptian men knew what many women put up with, actually it's a shame for the country and the good people here. That's too bad.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Well, maybe it should make a difference when I tell you the following story, Egyguy: Young man, born and raised in Europe, but half Egyptian. He thought he knew Egypt well enough to decide to study there temporary. He knew Egypt by numerous visits, his whole family lived there. He returned to Europe after only a few months, because he couldn't accept what he saw that was happening there. He saw so many twisted types, his own family seemed to contain this twisted males also. "I haven't seen one normal relationship, he said, and the way men are dealing with women is dreadfull. I tried to deal with it, but I couldn't. The worse was, I became aware of the fact that I was going along in it. It is like you're sucked into a stream, and you cannot go out. I did not want to become like they were, and I left. Not end of story, because back in Europe, I mentioned it has changed me. Only that few months have changed me. I'm not myself anymore..." Rather recognisable. As the women here are saying they have no other possibility as to accept that they are being harassed once in a while, but they know that it can be different. They are born and raised in another community. Egyptian women are not. They don't know another society as where they live in, and that it is safer to stay at home, or let a male relative go with you. But if I say that the behaviour regarding women even makes European/Egyptian MALES sick....how bad must it be??? You can wave it away as all the others are doing, and blame it to the women, I can say you it is not like that. Even European women who are old and unattractive get the same treatment. It doesn't matter how they look, what they wear and how they behave, only the fact she is foreign is enough. "She asked for it"...I've heard this false excuse more then enough to know that they are knowing very well, that they are wrong, they simply never will admit it...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I just wish more Egyptian men knew what many women put up with, actually it's a shame for the country and the good people here. That's too bad.
This is a paragraph from an article about sexual harassment in last year's September issue of the Cairo Times that imo is interesting in this context:
It is worthwhile to mention in the context of this issue that the vast majority of world-renowned travel guides such as the Lonely Planet dedicate entire sections within their Egyptian book editions to warn female tourists of the sexual harassment they will encounter if they decide to visit the country. This is a big slap in the face of tourism in Egypt. Many unsuspecting female visitors will return to their homelands offended and humiliated by the heinous staring and comments they encountered whilst attempting to enjoy the country's attractions. If Egypt's long-term plan to boost the tourism sector -- our main income provider -- is to reap any measure of success in the future, the plague of sexual harassment cannot be neglected. Powerful educational, legal and journalistic measures need to be undertaken to combat the phenomenon.
Also:
The article also mentioned that "out of 2800 women surveyed, only 10 claimed never to have been harassed, expressing ambivalence about the term "harassment", mistakenly understanding it to be synoymous with rape". Their lack of awareness of their legal rights, teamed with the country's patriarchal culture, and the overtly habitual incidences of cat calling and eve teasing on the street, have made many of them oblivious to the fact that there is a harassment problem in the first place. As Ms. Ghozy explained, "one of the biggest challenges we faced whilst conducting the surveys and focus groups was breaking women's silence. Many of them were afraid to admit that they had been sexually harassed because they thought that it brings some sort of liability on them, that it somehow taints their honour. They have been raised in a culture that places the blame on women for anything that happens to them."
This comes as little surprise given a society that not only tolerates the behaviour of sexual harassment, but has even come to expect it, as though it were an inevitable norm. The absurdity of our double standards speaks volumes about our culture; we denigrate sexual freedom yet hold an accepting attitude towards sexual harassment.
The ECWR's survey findings show that amongst 2790 women who admitted that they were victims of sexual harassment, exposure to foul language, misogynistic insults, inappropriate touching from harassers, attempts to obstruct their paths as they walk, or all of the above, were part of their daily experience of living in Egypt. Women anticipate these violations of their physical space every time they leave their houses. Why has the problem become so prevalent in our country?
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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<The way people are here is that even if they're wrong, they will adopt an extremely belligerent attitude of "yea, I'm wrong, so what??" and try to project blame onto the other party to somehow absolve themselves.>
Absolutely!!
<1)it will fall on deaf ears, you'd have better luck explaining Heisenberg's Uncertainty Prinicple to a Dog.> ROFL Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Thank you, Captain Obviously Redundant.
Stating the obvious then sweeping it all under the rug is pointless, your argument is moot i.e. of ZERO practical value, you've introduced nothing but conjecture & heresy to the discussion, and you refused to concede that Dalia had alot of valid points, your only counter-argument was to put the onus on women to "realize that this a hormone raged society", as if they were in a fucking coma and didn't notice guys grabbing them & verbally harassing them.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Thank you, Captain Obviously Redundant.
Stating the obvious then sweeping it all under the rug is pointless, your argument is moot i.e. of ZERO practical value, you've introduced nothing but conjecture & heresy to the discussion, and you refused to concede that Dalia had alot of valid points, your only counter-argument was to put the onus on women to "realize that this a hormone raged society", as if they were in a fucking coma and didn't notice guys grabbing them & verbally harassing them.
Don't be childishly jealous for some attention. I only show up once every few months.
And you don't have to bend over backwards all the time for westerners. I live among them and they're no angels anyway!
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Thank you, Captain Obviously Redundant.
Stating the obvious then sweeping it all under the rug is pointless, your argument is moot i.e. of ZERO practical value, you've introduced nothing but conjecture & heresy to the discussion, and you refused to concede that Dalia had alot of valid points, your only counter-argument was to put the onus on women to "realize that this a hormone raged society", as if they were in a fucking coma and didn't notice guys grabbing them & verbally harassing them.
Don't be childishly jealous for some attention. I only show up once every few months.
And you don't have to bend over backwards all the time for westerners. I live among them and they're no angels anyway!
What is that supposed to mean!?? Who ever said we were angels and why the need to bend over backwards? We don't ask for that, simply to stop being harrassed would be enough for most of us...my daughter is half Egyptian and half American. I guess she will only be half an angel, the other half just has to deal with things. Ok. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: Are your parents first cousins?
Dude, for some reason I completely despise you. I think you're a creep and a complete moron. Now, do me a favor and don't quote me anymore. Thank you!
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: What is that supposed to mean!?? Who ever said we were angels and why the need to bend over backwards? We don't ask for that, simply to stop being harrassed would be enough for most of us...my daughter is half Egyptian and half American. I guess she will only be half an angel, the other half just has to deal with things. Ok.
I simply meant that issues with harassement & abuse are everywhere.
My current GF was telling me last week about her restraining order against her ex. He turned out to be a Satan worshiper. An abusive fock really.
Now, here is how I think about it because I've seen my share of crap around here. I can find a bit of an excuse for people in my country. As I explained, we're dealing with poverty mainly there.
But I've seen so much disgusting behavioral patterns here. Where people are doing well financially and supposedly educated. I've seen and heard of mail in prides. Eastern European prostitution and related abuse to these women. May I ask why the word "Bitch" is everywhere in the media. Have you heard the latest rap.
If you ask me. Women are abused everywhere. You just have to stand up for yourself.
Posts: 345 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I agree with you EgyGuy, it's high time the women here started to carry defense weapons and stabbed these morons in the neck with a good sharp pencil each time he dare touch her. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I agree with you EgyGuy, it's high time the women here started to carry defense weapons and stabbed these morons in the neck with a good sharp pencil each time he dare touch her.
I was wondering what would happen if you just took a picture of each guy harassing you. I've been told it might be dangerous, but I thought it would be interesting because you would kind of turn the situation around ...
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Got a story to tell ya. Friend of mine wears hijab - the proper loose kind, not the scarf on head, but jeans really tight kind (if that makes any sense at all). anyways, she lived in Cairo for a few years, worked here, and took the metro prior to there being a woman's car. She took it everyday at the same time. She used to get harrassed, groped etc. So she decided to do something. She carried an extra scarf pin, and if someone "accidently" bumped into her boob area, or grabbed at her - they got "the pin", and when they started yelling, she just looked all innocent and made like she had no clue as to what they were talking about. She said within a week, that her reputation must have proceeded her - cuz no man came anywhere near her ever again. Figured that the word was out - to watch out for that one.
I think that its a good idea, but ya gotta be quite the actress to carry it off, and not get smacked.
Posts: 1103 | From: 6th of October | Registered: Jun 2007
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Are you still searching for a pride ? ******** JB, your story is exaggerated don't you think ? I mean come on, reputation on a metro ? Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
That news-traveling....I still don't know how that works. People I don't know seem to know me and know what I am doing or have planned...Even in other Middle-East countries...it's weird!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, let me get serious for a minute and point out a couple of things for you. In case you're not aware already.
Egypt is not an immigrant based society. OK. So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around. Hence the alien feeling and standing out.
Now being perceived and approached differently - if I understand what you're hinting and I think I do - can't be blamed on the ignorance of Egyptians. You do realize the image that western media portray of western women ... no need to further clarify here.
Also, the fact that there are plenty of women visiting the popular resorts to have some fun :wink: wink: doesn't help either.
OK, I'll get serious for a minute as well.
I'm well aware of the fact that even though Cairo is a huge city, many of its inhabitants are not used to foreigners at all and that for some people it's simply an event to see one of these creatures in reality.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the image that Western media portrays of Western women", but I know that many people look at American TV series or movies, for example, and think what is being shown there is the reality. Scary ... but I guess we can hardly blame them. (Although I'd suggest they watch more DW ... it comes in Arabic, too. )
In addition, there is the constant brainwashing being done by some religious figures or institutions. It seems that bashing the West, and particularly the "position of Western women", has become a very popular way for many religious groups or individuals to make their points and define the supposed Muslim identity. Needless to say that most of their claims are far removed from reality and utterly ridiculous, but how are people to know if they have no way of checking it? If they are being told by their imam or in some religious pamphlets that every man in the West has a mistress and that women will go to bed with anyone who approaches them, that our countries are full of *bastards* and so on and so forth ... why should they not believe this?
So far, so bad. But I'm well aware of the fact that I, as an individual, can do little to change their perception. I can chose to live with it or leave the country, and since I love living here and the harassment is the only serious drawback, I chose to live with it. But that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes need to vent my frustrations.
I also moved to a different area which made a huge difference. I lived in a very crowded area, very close to Imbaba before, and it just seemed to me that people were in general much more aggressive there.
I do, however, try to counteract or not further feed this particular stereotype by my appearance or behaviour. But I doubt that it makes a big difference. I remember getting extremely upset one day during the Eid when I was walking along the corniche in Alex with a friend and we were being followed, harassed, groped etc. for hours while Egyptian girls walking alongside in provocative outfits etc. didn't get harassed at all and none of the countless people being around interfered. So it seems that when you're a foreigner, it doesn't matter how you dress or behave, the simple fact that you are a foreigner makes some people judge and treat you in a particular way. The only way to avoid this is to put on a veil, then the harassment decreases significantly.
As for women who visit the resorts ... well, I cringe when I read or hear about them, but I don't think their behaviour has a huge impact on the everyday man, woman and child on the street in Cairo. And people who work in the tourist industry seem to actually be more sensitive to how they can approach whom, maybe it just comes with their experience. For example, I love walking around downtown which many people despise because of the sleezebags hanging out there approaching women and trying to drag people into their perfume or papyrus stores. But I get very little harassment there because it seems most of those guys are able to see who lives here and is not approachable. I also usually get a very decent treatment from salesguys in the Khan although they see half-naked women on an almost daily basis and surely know a lot of stories ...
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Now, I have to point out the fact that you might have been a bit mean to those kids. They said "Agnabia", you returned and said woman. I still stand my ground. You somehow see yourself as more of a woman - a desirable one that is - than most Egyptian women. I have no problem with that. I would still ask for a pic to validate claim please.
Wow, you certainly have a way of picking on words and interpreting or misinterpreting them.
I've responded in different ways to those remarks. I have indeed said "inta mashuftesh agnabia (or khawageya) abl kidda". But the reason I sometimes chose to say "sitt" is because I am just that -- a human being, not so different from themselves. As you might have noticed from the form of the verb in what I wrote above, it is also girls giving me those stares and comments and pointed fingers.
How you conclude that by defining myself as a *woman*, I am implying I might be more desirable than Egyptian women is completely beyond me and again, probably says more about your personal view of women than about my view of myself. I find most Egyptian women quite beautiful, in fact I think most of them are way more attractive than myself, so I don't really understand what your point is here ...
Nice post, one that is definitely credible with realistic observations, including your observation that harassment decreased after putting on the veil. This observation is contrary to the fallacious claim I read earlier from another member. I would like to ask you something about the incident in Alex: were the harassers on the corniche children, teenagers or adults or all? I am asking this to understand the extent of the situation, in all cases it is disgusting and deplorable but if the harassers were children then we must also blame their parents for such unislamic and disgusting behavior. I emphasize Islam because that is the code of ethics that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are supposed to adhere by. Members may like it or not but Egypt is 90% Muslims despite the behavior taking place on the streets
Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: So, what do you propose these intelligent female arab scholars say to their fellow women that may ease or possibly eliminate the disgustingly vulgar verbal and physical abuse they endure?
I believe the solution (for Muslims) to this predicament is within Islam and this means following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw). Dalia pointed out that current preachers such as Khalid dismiss altogether the actions of the males hence blaming the females for the disrespectful actions practiced by men. Female scholars if supported by Islamic institutions such as Al-Azhar in addition to allocating them ample airtime can effectively hammer in this issue. Muslim women need a voice to balance the male dominated arena that is ineffectual when it comes to their grievances. They must educate their fathers, sons, husbands and society in general on the sick behavior that is transpiring in Egypt. And with this education and awareness in addition continued support from Islamic institutions these female scholar/academics/preachers can make a difference. This can literally pave a way for legislation to criminalize sexual harassment. This would be a good start. The matter needs to be addressed fully, condemned and as I mentioned above criminalized. Muslim sisters need to take it upon themselves because the status quo is ineffective and might remain so until a loud enough voice is heard. The only way to go about tackling such an issue in Egypt is Islamically because enacting a mere law would not suffice, these actions need to be shamed in the eyes of the public paving the way for acceptance of laws that criminalize this behavior. Simple put Muslim women must be empowered in the religious spectrum and their voice must be respect and until then we will not see change.
So what I’m proposing is essentially the empowerment of women in Egypt. Giving them their due worth in a biased society. Initially it could be female scholars and insha allah followed by female police officers . Sexual harassment stems from lack of respect and women need to be empowered in fields that command respect or in other words male dominated arenas.
All good in theory, but you know as well as I do that women will never be empowered here, they will never be allowed to penetrate the Patriarchal system and be scholars or police officers, it would make the men even more insecure, if that's possible.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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Who ever said we were angels and why the need to bend over backwards? 
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