quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: So, what do you propose these intelligent female arab scholars say to their fellow women that may ease or possibly eliminate the disgustingly vulgar verbal and physical abuse they endure?
I believe the solution (for Muslims) to this predicament is within Islam and this means following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw). Dalia pointed out that current preachers such as Khalid dismiss altogether the actions of the males hence blaming the females for the disrespectful actions practiced by men. Female scholars if supported by Islamic institutions such as Al-Azhar in addition to allocating them ample airtime can effectively hammer in this issue. Muslim women need a voice to balance the male dominated arena that is ineffectual when it comes to their grievances. They must educate their fathers, sons, husbands and society in general on the sick behavior that is transpiring in Egypt. And with this education and awareness in addition continued support from Islamic institutions these female scholar/academics/preachers can make a difference. This can literally pave a way for legislation to criminalize sexual harassment. This would be a good start. The matter needs to be addressed fully, condemned and as I mentioned above criminalized. Muslim sisters need to take it upon themselves because the status quo is ineffective and might remain so until a loud enough voice is heard. The only way to go about tackling such an issue in Egypt is Islamically because enacting a mere law would not suffice, these actions need to be shamed in the eyes of the public paving the way for acceptance of laws that criminalize this behavior. Simple put Muslim women must be empowered in the religious spectrum and their voice must be respect and until then we will not see change.
So what I’m proposing is essentially the empowerment of women in Egypt. Giving them their due worth in a biased society. Initially it could be female scholars and insha allah followed by female police officers . Sexual harassment stems from lack of respect and women need to be empowered in fields that command respect or in other words male dominated arenas.
All good in theory, but you know as well as I do that women will never be empowered here, they will never be allowed to penetrate the Patriarchal system and be scholars or police officers, it would make the men even more insecure, if that's possible.
We need to be optimistic VB. Without optimism there is no hope. I have seen and continue to witness with my own eyes the empowerment of muslim women in Muslim nations. First it was in Malaysia where women are police officers and officials. And now it is present in Jordan where women have gained tremendous rights in recent years in part to the dedication of Queen Rania, furthermore women are now actively part of the police force and by this I mean they are no longer simply relegated to desk jobs. They are out in the streets and they also have officer status. They command respect.
My theory is possible because I did not dismiss Islam, I offered a solution that can succeed side by side with Islamic values and Islamic shari’ah. Egypt is in a dark period right now but there is hope and Egyptians are too great a peoples to remain in the dark. Insha Allah.
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Optimism is good trait no doubt my friend, but it must be tempered with a dose of realism.
Your solution would be plausible if it tackled the root of the problem, I'm talking about a full on assault at ending segregation, harassment, unemployment, corruption, these things are all interconnected, and they're all still very much ingrained in this & other arab socities. We need a clean slate, tabula rasa, that way one can build on a solid foundation safely without fear of it crumbling.
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I don't care if a woman is naked, she should not get sexually harrassed. It is NEVER her fault if she gets harrassed. This is something she should not have to deal with. It is really disgusting when a man drives by and rubs his dick and says something sexual to a woman. I am not in Egypt, but I have had a man, show me his dick and ask my if I like to suck cock. That is a form of sexual harrassment, I would think.
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Sexual harassment will not decrease in Egypt. I wish they would tell believers in mosques to leave strange women on a street alone - but I guess this subject isn't interesting enough for the imams.
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I do agree that the men have a responsibility but the women do, too...even if in a small way. Sorry but if a woman walks down the street naked what do you expect to happen!? Not saying that if she isn't covered from head to toe it is deserved but reality here, too. I am a firm believer that women teach men how to treat them, from what I see a lot of the problems in Egypt come from the soceity telling the women not to say anything or fight back, apathy is appalling here! I don't know what the solution but it is NOT the sole responsibility of the men, that's for sure.
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OK HOLD THE PHONE! I just found on YOUTUBE the way to deal with sexual harrassment. This video (13 seconds) should be distributed to any woman or girl in Egypt. If a man harrasses you in anyway, this is how to deal with it:
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Smuckers the thing is no one is walking down the street literally 'naked' in Egypt - or what Egyptians would consider as naked - besides in the tourist resorts on the Red Sea and maybe some others in the Khan El Khalili in Cairo but that's about it.
And think about it not every Egyptian guy is harassing females. It's usually the younger generation so that's where the problem lies.
These men have manners missing, no respect for females in general. Usually it's been said that these guys should treat any female with the same respect as they would treat their own mother and sister but it's just not happening.
Would I be happy if my son would stand on the side of the street and tell obscenities to females - regardless if Egyptian or foreign? No I would be shocked, very disappointed and I would blame myself for him being that way. It's just not normal.
And it's frustrating to see that sexual harassment towards women in Egypt is like a mass sport. It's obviously accepted to act this way because otherwise you would hear more men speaking up if one guy acts like that.
Seriously in the past I was always glad to find an Egyptian man who treated me with respect as a foreign woman, a man who wouldn't say strange things to me or even try to flirt with me in the next couple of minutes.
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You think sexual harrassment is something that happens more in Egypt? That Hijab doesn't prevent any?
In my lifetime, living in the UK these are some of my experiences:
Sexual Assult
Family member raped
Stood at bus stop while a bloke stood next to me with a hard on OUTSIDE his trousers
Whistles, looks, comments especially in summer, when I wore less.
constantly men trying to 'cop off'
Men with girlfriends/wives still trying to 'cop off'
Men grabbing your back side when you walk past in a club
+ much much more
Since wearing Hijab - NOTHING
So please dont tell me hijab makes no difference. If your average Egyptian women has experienced my list, I will listen, but as long as societies/music videos/media continue to portray women as sexual objects, that is how they will be treated by men. And as long as women themselves buy into this crap by thinking that 'looking sexy' and 'acting sexy' are the way to be, that is how they will be treated by men. But in my experience hijab made a massive diffence.
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Sexual harassment will not decrease in Egypt. I wish they would tell believers in mosques to leave strange women on a street alone - but I guess this subject isn't interesting enough for the imams.
Exactly. Why don't people like Amr Khaled focus on the men instead of the women? Imagine he would be preaching things like this ... wouldn't that have a more beneficial effect on Egyptian society:
The most important thing in a man's life is lowering the gaze ...
The brother who keeps on staring at women is not submitted to Allah. ...
Everyday you go out, and with every woman you look at, you gather sins, is that true or not? Of course you take sins because you didn't obey Allah's command. You'll might argue, 'It's not my fault, my intentions are good, it's the woman that will take sins for seducing me.' No brother. She will take sins for being seductive, that’s true. But you looked at her, in the first place, because you were not following God's commands ...
I must stress that if the man was guided on the right path and lowered his gaze, then society would also be on the right path.
Of course I'm not saying that harassing women isn't a sin. Harassing women he biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin. It's the biggest sin, because you would be encouraging other men to do the same. Never ever do this please. Allah (SWT) would hate that. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs: as long as societies/music videos/media continue to portray women as sexual objects, that is how they will be treated by men.
I've never experienced anything like what you describe above in Europe or the States. Sexual harassment on the street is pretty much non-existent in Germany.
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Some of this is ridiclous. Religion doesn't need to tell you to be a good person or not. You know right from wrong, you are either decent or you aren't. All of the Amr Khalid's telling people to wear hijab or lower their gaze isn't going to matter. There are plenty of non-religious people who treat others with respect and plenty of firm believers in Islam who would never think twice to grope someone anywhere.
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Smuckers, Islam is present day-in and day-out in every Egyptian's life (okay a smaller minority consists of Christians). Therefore I believe if mosques would take a sincere interest in this matter they could move things to the better.
And as I mentioned earlier its the younger people who act in a very disrespectful way towards women.
Believe me I totally prefer an Egyptian man who lowers his gaze and even refuses to shake my hand than having another Egyptian shouting all kind of vulgarities after me (okay they don't shout but you get my point) and perhaps even getting physical.
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quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: Optimism is good trait no doubt my friend, but it must be tempered with a dose of realism.
Your solution would be plausible if it tackled the root of the problem, I'm talking about a full on assault at ending segregation, harassment, unemployment, corruption, these things are all interconnected, and they're all still very much ingrained in this & other arab socities. We need a clean slate, tabula rasa, that way one can build on a solid foundation safely without fear of it crumbling.
I agree that all of the above mentioned need to be addressed and tackled and it will be a mountainous task. Starting somewhere such as dealing with the vile behaviour exhibited by Egyptians males should however be dealt with sooner rather than later. Because hardships such as unemployment and corruption and so forth exisits in other societies yet harrasment is nowhere near the extent it is in Egypt. Furthermore dealing with this problem will not take billions of dollars as is the case with upgrading industries and alleviating unemployment. We can all wish for the best and hopefully the momentum of increasing rights for women in the Muslim world will make its dent on Egyptian society.
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It will probably be a VERY long time before the momentum of increasing rights for women in the muslim world make a dent on Egyptian society.
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This problem with women being sexually harassed in Egypt is probably not going to stop for another thirty years or so because the muslim world is slow in giving women their rights. I think that we have a lot of people in that part of the world that still don't care enough about women to help with this problem quickly enough.
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I do agree that the men have a responsibility but the women do, too...even if in a small way. Sorry but if a woman walks down the street naked what do you expect to happen!? Not saying that if she isn't covered from head to toe it is deserved but reality here, too. I am a firm believer that women teach men how to treat them, from what I see a lot of the problems in Egypt come from the soceity telling the women not to say anything or fight back, apathy is appalling here! I don't know what the solution but it is NOT the sole responsibility of the men, that's for sure.
Indeed Smuckers, and anyone who denies the importance of women in this issue is obviously ignorant in this matter. Muslim women and especially Egyptian Muslim women must take a central role. The fact is that nobody and i mean nobody will strive more with all their effort, time and heart than the persons who are affected the most. And in this case it is Egyptian women. Tourists come and go and i am generalizing(so nothing personal) here but it is the homeland of Egytptians and it is their husbands, sons, cousins, fathers and brothers who are the violaters. Foreign orginizations might publish report after report but in the end it won't make much of a difference. Egyptian women need to stand up and they so need the help of certain local institutions in order to be heard.
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well until the Islamic world re educates their flock I guess we girls need to do it ourselves with.
1) pepper spray ( Smuckers I will be your first customer)
2) Take their photo
3) shout as loud as possible so that everyone knows what has happened and attract as much attention as possible to them.
4) kick their car doors in
5) jab them with pins
for me the pepper spray would be my ideal weapon of choice and to hope that if I was not with my husband that a MAN like Vanilla was walking somewhere in the vicinity, and NOT one like Exiled who would be quoting ME chapters from the Quran Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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I used to live in a shared house, one night when they all came back from the pub, the landlord of the house (who also lived there) raped one of the girls who lived there.
A muslim man (not Egyptian - From Oman) went to the pub with them but didnt drink, I didnt go 'cos I was pregnant at the time. He did not get involved. All of these people were friends of mine.
The way you are all talking is as if Egyptian society is sexually dysfunctional, yet in another breath many of you will say it is one of the safest places to be?
While my examples are not all about what happens on the street, they are ALL true and have ALL happened to me in the UK over the past 20 years. I know that I'm alone in my argument, and I'm glad that Dalia has not experienced such things, but they do happen, elsewhere in the world and its more about the sexualisation of women that has been accepted all over the world than it is about religion or culture or anything else. IMO
Women have some power in changing this themselves.
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quote:Originally posted by harankash: and NOT one like Exiled who would be quoting ME chapters from the Quran
Actually you are deserving of being fed crow for the ridiculous claim you previously made in this thread Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007
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we all know that sexual harassment happens everywhere. The main focus was on Egypt in this thread though.
I have to say that I have travelled extensively and have never, had any type of harassment. I was really racking my brains to think of one incidence, and I could not recall one.
Now if anything I wear far more in way of clothing here, I keep my head down and try to minimise any situation where I will be alone or in company of men in the street and shops. Yet I cannot walk 10 yards in downtown or many other places without getting a remark or worse.
I really feel that women and I will include all foreign women and women of other religions or none here as Exiled is talking exculsively it seems to the Moslem women here !
ANY woman here who is harassed needs to do something about it and NOT just ignore it.
My God if I had blue spray painted evryone who has done it to me we would be surrounded by 'Smurfs'
It is NOT shameful or degrading or unclassy to fight back!
Until we do they will carry on like Egyguy and his moron friends, and the rest of the baboons.
and as for someone earlier who said if it happens call the cops!!
you obviously missed Oldbags encounter with the cop who came to her aid when she fell down in
yeah like you would ever run to one of those 'bottom feeders'
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quote:Originally posted by harankash: I really feel that women and I will include all foreign women and women of other religions or none here as Exiled is talking exculsively it seems to the Moslem women here !
This is another fallacy of yours because my position is very simple: Egyptian women must take it upon themselves to make a change in Egyptian society.
Foreign women can change their own circumstance but they can not persuade nor effect instititions such as Al-Azhar. Egyptian women need to address these institions and ask for their support. If Egyptian Muslim women stand up the battle will be won. Sadly change is incumbent upon the actions of the majority in Muslim nations hence the actions of Egyptian Muslim women.
Your attempt to make a rift between me and ES women will Insha Allah fail, and i hope they see through your games.
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“They’re animals, beasts, vermin. That’s what they are.”
A foreign colleague made this remark to me recently in an expression of outrage at the throngs of male harassers who have seized the country’s streets. Despite the hostility of the remark, she can hardly be blamed for her embittered sentiment. The amount of sexual harassment women encounter whenever they attempt to navigate the streets of Egypt is a social malaise that has come to warrant ridicule. No explanation or word of appeasement overcomes the feeling of physical and emotional violation felt by women in Egypt, the eternal recipients of unwelcome sexual remarks, profanity, gaping and touching – in public. The shamefully ubiquitous phenomenon has become a debilitating plague invading our country. Second only to the plight of street children, it is the vilest daily occurrence on our streets, far less tolerable for most women than the traffic, noise and pollution combined.
In support of efforts being taken to curb this disturbing phenomenon, CT met up with a pioneering organization that is campaigning strongly to put an end to sexual pestering on the streets - the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights (ECWR). We spoke with Ms. Engy Ghozy, the Project Coordinator for the campaign, to learn more about the initiative, surprisingly one of the verhy few projects being undertaken to make the country’s streets safer for women. The project is sponsored by the EU, the UNFPA, Nile FM, and supported by Filbalad.com. Ms. Ghozy explained to CT why and how the Campaign Against Sexual Harassment began, the findings of the study on sexual harassment conducted by the center, and the methodology devised to address the issue.
For those who are unfamiliar with ECWR, it is an NGO that was founded 11 years ago (in 1996) with the mission of improving the status of women in Egypt and the Arab region. The center provides direct legal aid to poor women and trains them to claim their rights independently. Since its inception, ECWR has expanded its programs to address several important issues faced by women in Egypt, its successful efforts gaining it the World Bank title as one of the 10 Best Development Programs in 2002. This year, ECWR launched its new nationwide campaign to fight sexual harassment.
What started it all?
In 2005, ECWR received a large number of complaints from women who were unable to deal with the sexual violations they encountered on Egypt’s streets. Aware that no study had previously been conducted in the country to analyze sexual harassment traits and that no statistics on the topic were to be found, the center launched a pilot research to find out more about the issue. ECWR surveyed 3500 randomly selected women and men from various demographic sectors to understand their perceptions and responses to street sexual harassment. The samples were selected from places as diverse as AUC, Cairo university, Luxor, Aswan, The New Valley, Qalyubeyya and Giza. In conjunction with the surveys, the center simultaneously ran focus group discussions with both men and women to understand their opinions of the issue and the factors that propel sexual harassment in the first place. The survey was compiled and analyzed over a period of 16 months and revealed a host of interesting findings.
Women - The Curse of Silence
Of the 2800 women surveyed, only 10 claimed never to have been sexually harassed, expressing ambivalence about the meaning of the term “harassment,” mistakenly understanding it to be synonymous with rape. Their lack of awareness of their legal rights, teamed with the country’s patriarchal culture, and the overtly habitual incidences of cat calling and eve teasing on the streets, have made many of them oblivious to the very fact that there is a harassment problem in the first place. As Ms. Ghozy explained, “one of the biggest challenges we faced whilst conducting the surveys and focus groups was breaking women’s silence. Many of them were afraid to admit that they had been sexually harassed because they thought that it brings some sort of liability on them, that it somehow taints their honor. They have been raised in a culture that places the blame on women for anything that happens to them.” This comes as little surprise given a society that not only tolerates the behavior of sexual harassers, but has even come to expect it, as though it were an inevitable norm. The absurdity of our double standards speaks volumes about our culture; we denigrate the choice of sexual freedom yet hold an accepting attitude towards imposed sexual harassment. The ECWR’s survey findings show that amongst the 2790 women who admitted that they were victims of sexual harassment, exposure to foul language, misogynistic insults, inappropriate touching from harassers, attempts to obstruct their paths as they walk, or all of the above, were part of their daily experience of living in Egypt. Women anticipate these violations of their physical space every time they leave their houses. Why has the problem become so prevalent in our country?
The Perspective of the Harasser
The issue of sexual harassment is complex, inextricably tied to a labyrinth of socioeconomic and political problems that are crippling Egypt. It is easy to cite a litany of reasons propelling the phenomenon: unemployment, boredom, a need to vent social frustrations, the lack of financial means for marriage, exposure to sexual depictions in the media alongside a culture of sexual repression, chauvinist upbringings, a belief in the inferiority of women, the wide availability of drugs, lack of adequate legal punishment to dissuade harassers, etc. The list is exhaustive. What is certain, however, is that hollering something anatomically graphical at a woman or brushing one’s hands against her body does not yield a sexual sensation powerful enough to incite the repeated act of harassment. What, then, is the satisfaction that male harassers gain by making lurid passes at women? The only other logical explanation is the need to assert power. According to the study conducted by the ECWR, some of the main reasons cited by men for harassment are as follows: a feeling of pride amongst one’s male friends, a feeling of satisfaction at having gotten away with something, a feeling of machismo, and the joy of gratifying an impulse urge. This need for control was proved further when the ECWR moderators asked the men in question why they continue to repeat the harassing behavior. “Boredom,” “habit” and “there is nothing to stop me,” were amongst the replies given. For many men, harassing a hapless female on the street is clearly an easy means of asserting power when they feel helpless in other domains of their lives (owing to poverty, unemployment, familial dysfunction, etc).
Of course, society offers the usual counterargument: that it is women who invite sexual harassment. Popular culture has it that only those who dress “inappropriately” are exposed to wolf whistles and inappropriate comments, and that women who are not moderately clothed (whatever this concept denotes to each person) can rightfully be blamed for “exciting” the sexual appetites of the sex-starved men on the streets. This unapologetically chauvinist argument, which gives men the thumbs up to engage in harassment freely, would not be dignified with a response in any civilized nation. Arguing that women’s attire is what propels harassment is similar to arguing that the mere presence of weapons is what propels murder. Further proof of the unwarranted claims of this argument is the fact that the men sampled in ECWR’s focus group discussions have admitted to having openly made passes at veiled women and even women who don a face veil. Therefore sexual harassment in Egypt takes place irrespective of the woman’s clothing. The issue is a behavioral one and simply exists because there are not enough measures being taken to eradicate it. As some of the focus group participants have said, “there is nothing to stop me.”
The Catch-Me-If-You-Can Debacle
The lack of initiatives to address sexual harassment on the streets has trapped women in a suffocating social and legal gridlock. Most efforts at self-defense against the sexual harasser are met with failure. Take for example, possible defense scenario number one: yelling at the harasser or flinging a bag/item at him. This approach may or may not force the man in question to leave the woman alone. Two women in the focus group discussions illustrated this idea further. The first said that she once reacted to an incident of harassment by pushing away and beating the harasser; he felt guilty/afraid and ran away. The second woman reacted in the same manner to another harasser: he responded by beating her back. This trial-and-error approach therefore does not offer guaranteed protection to women.
Then comes the second possible solution, which is to resort to a nearby police officer in the hope that he will drag the offender to the police station. According to Article 278 of The Egyptian Penal Code, “anyone who commits a public obscenity offending the modesty of a woman shall be punished either by imprisonment of up to one year or a fine of not more than LE 300.” This legal clause is not being applied in Egypt for various reasons. Firstly, resorting to the officers for help is, as any woman living here would know, often futile because they do not take the issue seriously enough to address it. If anything, some might even be inclined to join in with a wolf whistle. Our society is so accustomed to witnessing “mo3akasat” (sexual harassment) that many people, including some women, sneer and laugh at those who make an ordeal about the issue. Secondly, women cannot file a complaint against a random stranger because they do not know his name or have any means of tracking him down. Nor is it realistic to expect them to physically grab the harasser and take him to a police station since it is often beyond their physical capacity, not to mention that a police station may also be nowhere in sight, and the offender will fight back before the woman can even hope to drag him one meter.
The most extreme of all possible solutions is to avoid walking in the streets altogether. Although countless women have actually resorted to this last measure, it is a weak palliative rather than a permanent way of addressing the problem. No person, man or woman, should be stripped of the basic human right to enjoy the public arena, to move freely and safely without feeling afraid. The only solution, then, is for a strong national campaign to be implemented to fight the street sexual harassment phenomenon.
Paying Consideration to the Tourism Industry
It is worthwhile to mention in the context of this issue that the vast majority of world-renowned travel guides such as the Lonely Planet dedicate entire sections within their Egyptian book editions to warn female tourists of the sexual harassment they will encounter if they decide to visit the country. This is a big slap in the face of tourism in Egypt. Many unsuspecting female visitors are apt to return to their homelands offended and humiliated by the heinous staring and comments they encountered whilst attempting to enjoy the country’s attractions. If Egypt’s long-term plan to boost the tourism sector - our main income provider – is to reap any measure of success in the future, the plague of sexual harassment cannot be neglected. Powerful educational, social, legal and journalistic measures need to be undertaken to combat the phenomenon.
ECWR’s Campaign Against Sexual Harassment – What is Being Done?
The ECWR is working on four consecutive steps towards addressing sexual harassment. The first phase involves research and was conducted throughout 2005. The findings of the surveys and focus groups were compiled in a detailed booklet entitled “Harassment; The Social Plague,” and are being distributed in seminars, conferences and awareness days across the country. The second phase of the plan involves spreading public awareness and sensitizing society on the issue. This is a pivotal step given the fact that many Egyptian women are unaware of what constitutes harassment to begin with. They live in a culture of silence and passivity that does not encourage them to speak up about their problems. Ms. Ghozy was quick to point out that amongst the opinions expressed during the focus group discussions were comments like “harassment is normal, it happens every day” and “why are you preoccupied with sexual harassment when there are bigger issues in the country such as street children?” Part of the ECWR’s awareness campaign is to enlighten the public to the fact that attending to one social problem does not negate efforts being done to combat other social problems, and that sexual harassment is directly linked to issues like street children. Wandering juveniles are as prone to sexual teasing as are adult women, perhaps even more so because they are helpless to defend themselves.
As part of its efforts to publicize the issue of sexual harassment, the ECWR held a seminar at AUC on December 5th 2006, with law professors and specialists in women’s studies gathering together to discuss with a large audience the rising phenomenon. Then, on the 24th of March this year, another press conference was held with the aim of announcing the launch of the new campaign, releasing the findings of the center’s research, and inviting young people to volunteer in the project. The third publicity event was held on the 18th of May 2007 at Culture Wheel. It was labeled “The Sexual Harassment Awareness Day” and was attended by 1000 people. Considerable media coverage was done on the event. ECWR invited music bands to perform on the day, in order to appeal to the young crowd. Additionally, a German female volunteer with extensive background in martial arts offered to give free self-defense classes on the day to women to teach them how to fend off an aggressive male harasser. The Awareness Day encouraged yet more volunteers to join the campaign. Moreover, a website and telephone hotline are currently being developed for women to speak up about sexual harassment. The ECWR will also be approaching schools to train teachers and social workers on how to raise children’s awareness on the issue. The center is developing a 5-minute animated cartoon as a fun and interactive means of teaching them about the subject. ??The third step of ECWR’s campaign is advocacy. The center plans to address officials and the Ministry of Interior to introduce new codes within the penal law that would enact more severe punishment on harassers. ??The fourth step is the Youth Outreach Program, which aims to encourage men to volunteer in the campaign so that they can teach other men about the harmful effects of sexual harassment. As Ghozy explains, “unfortunately in Egypt, we have a culture of passivity and discouragement. People put other people down. They discourage them from volunteer work. They say ‘what’s the use? Nothing will change.’ Well, with this negative attitude, of course nothing will change!”
Why the Campaign Offers a Positive Step
ECWR’s campaign philosophy can be summarized in one word: pragmatism. The project encourages civil society to take action against sexual harassment without having to constantly wait and expect the country’s officials to address each and every issue in Egypt. As Ms Ghozy explains, “ we want to teach people that with minimal resources, we can make a difference. Millions of small-scale development projects reaped grand-scale successes in countries like India and Indonesia. Egypt is no less capable of moving forward. We need volunteers in this country. In developed nations that barely suffer half the problems we have, there is a strong volunteering culture. Here, we are mired in problems and yet we barely have volunteers. We need more enthusiasm. The campaign can only work if we elicit help.”
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I forgot to add to my list:
I used to live in a shared house, one night when they all came back from the pub, the landlord of the house (who also lived there) raped one of the girls who lived there.
A muslim man (not Egyptian - From Oman) went to the pub with them but didnt drink, I didnt go 'cos I was pregnant at the time. He did not get involved. All of these people were friends of mine.
The way you are all talking is as if Egyptian society is sexually dysfunctional, yet in another breath many of you will say it is one of the safest places to be?
While my examples are not all about what happens on the street, they are ALL true and have ALL happened to me in the UK over the past 20 years. I know that I'm alone in my argument, and I'm glad that Dalia has not experienced such things, but they do happen, elsewhere in the world and its more about the sexualisation of women that has been accepted all over the world than it is about religion or culture or anything else. IMO
Women have some power in changing this themselves.
I think the point you are missing, which others have tried to explain, is that what you are describing does NOT happen to almost every woman in every UK city on a DAILY if not hourly basis. While I don't doubt what you've described does happen much more than is reported, it does NOT compare to the type of "meat-market" verbal harassment that is being described by women on a typical Egyptian street. This is hurled upon the majority of females regardless of their dress on a continuous, basis, over and over and over.
I am not discounting or invalidating your experiences but I do think they're off topic to what is being discussed here. I see young women in the UK dress in the-world-is-your-gynecologist-shirts all of the time, and the men don't even turn to give them a second look. Imagine traveling in London or any other European city and being leered at and receiving rude comments from random male commuters while you are wearing your conservative office clothes to and from work? It just does not happen. Therefore, while your contribution might be valuable, your particular experience doesn't relate to what others are trying to get at here.
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posted
I agree with ExptinCAI, and while part of the problem stems from several factors, as noted in the article Dalia gave us above, it's about power.
Isn't that the same resounding theme in all forms of abuse? Power. Physical abuse, harrassment, etc. I think it's true that the men in Egypt do feel a sort of powerlessness (poverty, unemployment, familial dysfunction, etc). What about the women? Do they not feel equally powerless? It could be said that the women fulfill their lack of power in raising the price of their hand in marriage...thus only causing more and more powerlessness of the men. It's like I said - issues of harrassment are to be shared equally by men and women. It won't change until so many underlying things (as VB said) change first. It's just not as easy as changing one or two things~
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
You might have something there, Smucks, in the powerlessness. But I see this as more of a cultural phenomenon. We're powerless to do XYZ, therefore let's not even try to beat them, let's join them. Examples of XYZ range from cruelty to animals, especially when children go out of their way to find amusement in inflicting it on harmless street dogs & cat....treating the entire world as your personal, giant trash can, to verbal harassment. The last one there's some exception, in that you get the men who say "we never do that!" But. They don't say anything either when others do it, unless it gets to a certain point or the woman makes a scene.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by harankash: I really feel that women and I will include all foreign women and women of other religions or none here as Exiled is talking exculsively it seems to the Moslem women here !
This is another fallacy of yours because my position is very simple: Egyptian women must take it upon themselves to make a change in Egyptian society.
Foreign women can change their own circumstance but they can not persuade nor effect instititions such as Al-Azhar. Egyptian women need to address these institions and ask for their support. If Egyptian Muslim women stand up the battle will be won. Sadly change is incumbent upon the actions of the majority in Muslim nations hence the actions of Egyptian Muslim women.
Your attempt to make a rift between me and ES women will Insha Allah fail, and i hope they see through your games.
Secondly have you noticed no arab women here making comments?
Thirdly it seems that the posters are all foreign women either moslem or not all saying the same thing as me. I dont see anyone in agreement to your women scholar solution, as this was meant clearly for arab moslem women of which there are none here.
So if you can put those women aside as they are not contributing I ask you for the sake of the women who ARE here.
What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not. If you are not interested in answering this as Vanilla has as a man. Then please open another thread for the Arab moslem women where your contribution might be more welcome as it is NOT the answer to OUR problem. and Dont say cover up more! or wear hijab!
I am dressed far more respectfully than half the hijabys I see parading their wares for the male population here.
Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Dalia*, thanks for the article and the link for the organization.
Btw, the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights is looking for volunteers to help with the campaign; I would think foreign women are welcomed too.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I have written twice and received replies and one query was acted upon one in process.
It can be done
primemin@idsc.gov.eg
but you have to put the emphasis on a tourism and from a western foreigners point of view. They will bin it if it is from Egyptians.
He was until very recently living just up the road from us and his sister still does.
Hubby was speaking to 'someone' who knows him well and he is apparently a nice man and quite approachable. A man who goes to Friday prayers in his ship ships Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Where is the link for that TL ?
How You Can Help
To volunteer or inquire about the Campaign, below are the contact details: ECWR Address: 135 Misr Helwan Street, 2nd floor, Flat 3, Maadi, Cairo. Telephone: 5271397 or 5282176 Fax: (02) 5282175 Website: http://www.ecwronline.org Email: ecwr@link.net
It was included in the link Dalia* gave all the way in the end of the article.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: I emphasize Islam because that is the code of ethics that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are supposed to adhere by. Members may like it or not but Egypt is 90% Muslims despite the behavior taking place on the streets
Dunes, if you think Islam is the solution, then you are out of touch with reality dude..
There is no proof or evidence that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) can make men or women (much less nations) more ethical.
In fact, isn't Egypt more "Islamic" today than it was a few decades ago, yet sexual harassment is far worse now than it was back then?
The truth is, religion and morality are mutually exclusive....not inclusive.
Every man has the power to change his behaviour, and until he makes a personal decision to become a better man, religion can't do a damn thing for him.
Anyway, thats besides the point and off topic.. We've had these discussions before on E.S, and it all comes back to the same things as VB and others have noted..
Sexual segregation and repression both lead to abnormal sexual and emotional development in regards to dealing with members of the opposite sex, which results in an exponential increase in the rate of sexual harassment/misconduct.
Men and women were not created to be apart from each other. We are social creatures, and we need to interact with other people for proper maturation.
When this interaction is limited or repressed, problems are sure to arise in more ways than one.
Also, the vilification of female sexuality plays a large part to be sure. Women in Islamic nations have the unfortunate luck of being seen as both the tempters of men, and bastions of virtue at the same time.
Which explains why women get most of the blame for the sexual misconduct of men...and also why "covering up" is not only recommended, but mandatory in certain nations or locales..
This whole thing really is quite complicated to be sure.
It's an interesting synthesis of religion, culture and lets not forget, economics.
I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about sexual harassment in the Gulf nations to the same extent as what I've heard about Egypt.
There is less general malcontent and poverty in the Gulf nations though, so I'm sure that has much to do with it.
posted
There has been a time when Western women were in the situation as they are now in Egypt, also that has changed. It taked time. But as soon as there will be more high-educated women, they will raise their voice... Then they will not believe what has been told to them, then they will force society into changings. Any young girl who still believes the tale that they are responsable for harassment and nothing will happen to them if they act and dress decent enough, believes in this because they know better. When you don't come anywhere further as your own society/family, and have been indoctrinated by false statements, how should they know better??? Education and knowledge is the key...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not.
My advice for foreign women would be:
Learn a short yet effectively stern Arabic vocabulary that would be able to deal with incidences of harassment. Such a vocabulary is not solely to confront the attacker but to also familiarize people in vicinity with what transpired to the foreign women. And by simple language I mean just that, one sentence should be something like: "Shame on you!! – shame on you!! – respect yourself!! and respect me!! – respect me!!! – I am a guest in your country!!" . Such should be said loudly and sternly enough so that people in the vicinity should hear you. Repeat this enough times to gather attention.
Then insha allah when people gather, the violated foreign women should say in a lower yet stern voice. "This man (while pointing at him) has touched me in an inappropriate way". repeat this a few times.
Foreign women should also file complaints in police stations and they should also pursue these complaints, regardless if the police take them seriously or not. All these complaints should hopefully gain the interest of the press and that would be a very good thing. Also foreign women should lobby anyone and every organization that will lend them an ear in this regard. Write your foreign ministers, home secretary, write the consuls and ambassadors and UN organizations, etc and inform them of your ordeals. In other words apply some kind of pressure on the Egyptian government through these sources.
Be proactive and take this seriously rather than what is stated here by some women who state ‘oh some guy touched my ass today” followed by the angry emoticon.
Last but not least avoid aggressive neighborhoods altogether and settle in civilized areas such as maadi where foreigners are respected more than other neighborhoods.
Carrying mase is also a very good option in the event that something like this occurs and especially in isolated areas. Mase them and then run as fast as you can, just make sure you don’t use mase when it is windy.
Doing nothing would be a defeat and whatever you do make sure you leave the scene of incidence feeling that you have tried your best.
Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: I emphasize Islam because that is the code of ethics that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are supposed to adhere by. Members may like it or not but Egypt is 90% Muslims despite the behavior taking place on the streets
Dunes, if you think Islam is the solution, then you are out of touch with reality dude..
There is no proof or evidence that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) can make men or women (much less nations) more ethical.
In fact, isn't Egypt more "Islamic" today than it was a few decades ago, yet sexual harassment is far worse now than it was back then?
The truth is, religion and morality are mutually exclusive....not inclusive.
Every man has the power to change his behaviour, and until he makes a personal decision to become a better man, religion can't do a damn thing for him.
Anyway, thats besides the point and off topic.. We've had these discussions before on E.S, and it all comes back to the same things as VB and others have noted..
Sexual segregation and repression both lead to abnormal sexual and emotional development in regards to dealing with members of the opposite sex, which results in an exponential increase in the rate of sexual harassment/misconduct.
Men and women were not created to be apart from each other. We are social creatures, and we need to interact with other people for proper maturation.
When this interaction is limited or repressed, problems are sure to arise in more ways than one.
Also, the vilification of female sexuality plays a large part to be sure. Women in Islamic nations have the unfortunate luck of being seen as both the tempters of men, and bastions of virtue at the same time.
Which explains why women get most of the blame for the sexual misconduct of men...and also why "covering up" is not only recommended, but mandatory in certain nations or locales..
This whole thing really is quite complicated to be sure.
It's an interesting synthesis of religion, culture and lets not forget, economics.
I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about sexual harassment in the Gulf nations to the same extent as what I've heard about Egypt.
There is less general malcontent and poverty in the Gulf nations though, so I'm sure that has much to do with it.
~Alistair
Ali, don't feel shunned, i will appropriately reply to your post 2morrow(isa) as i have obligations i must attend, later dude.
Posts: 2418 | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I have an American friend who insisted on going for walks when visiting me in Cairo. I used to suggest not to do so - exactly because of the known harassment. She developed a brilliant tactic.
When a man would approach her and start to speak or attempt to touch her, she used to stop abruptly facing the man ..dramatically looking up to the sky, both palms open, and with her highest most annoying pitch, used to say: LA ALLAH ELLA, ALLAH MOHAMED RASSOOL ALLAH and then looking at the man in the eyes: ALLAH YAKHODKOM YA KOFFAR.[Hope that God takes you, you unbelievers) And leave the man flabbergasted wallahy!!
My sister was with her one day, and told me this. I found it brilliant since it was successful.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not.
My advice for foreign women would be:
Learn a short yet effectively stern Arabic vocabulary that would be able to deal with incidences of harassment. Such a vocabulary is not solely to confront the attacker but to also familiarize people in vicinity with what transpired to the foreign women. And by simple language I mean just that, one sentence should be something like: "Shame on you!! – shame on you!! – respect yourself!! and respect me!! – respect me!!! – I am a guest in your country!!" . Such should be said loudly and sternly enough so that people in the vicinity should hear you. Repeat this enough times to gather attention.
Then insha allah when people gather, the violated foreign women should say in a lower yet stern voice. "This man (while pointing at him) has touched me in an inappropriate way". repeat this a few times.
Foreign women should also file complaints in police stations and they should also pursue these complaints, regardless if the police take them seriously or not. All these complaints should hopefully gain the interest of the press and that would be a very good thing. Also foreign women should lobby anyone and every organization that will lend them an ear in this regard. Write your foreign ministers, home secretary, write the consuls and ambassadors and UN organizations, etc and inform them of your ordeals. In other words apply some kind of pressure on the Egyptian government through these sources.
Be proactive and take this seriously rather than what is stated here by some women who state ‘oh some guy touched my ass today” followed by the angry emoticon.
Last but not least avoid aggressive neighborhoods altogether and settle in civilized areas such as maadi where foreigners are respected more than other neighborhoods.
Carrying mase is also a very good option in the event that something like this occurs and especially in isolated areas. Mase them and then run as fast as you can, just make sure you don’t use mase when it is windy.
Doing nothing would be a defeat and whatever you do make sure you leave the scene of incidence feeling that you have tried your best.
Almaz's phrases would work cheers for that Almaz.
Ma'adi? civilised. Nope it happens there too.
The only place I have had no harassment at all has been my compound. We have security posted every 50 yds or so and every worker is warned not to approach residents so that works. Not a single comment or sly look even. Ma'adi was not somewhere I would consider free from harassment at all. Was that not where the slasher hung out?
I think everyone should mail the PM on the address above. Writing to our consulates etc will do nothing I feel. Every instance will require proof and you wont have that. They slink off into the shadows and the police will do diddley squat full stop if you stop them in the street.
We need the decent men in Egypt to put a stop to it when they hear it. Imagine if that was your wife. You would hate to think that men walked on by if your wife was being insulted or assaulted. But that is what happens here.
It is appalling to think that men sit in cafes and watch and listen to friends do this and do nothing about it.
Mace is a very good idea! is it available in Cairo?
Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: I have an American friend who insisted on going for walks when visiting me in Cairo. I used to suggest not to do so - exactly because of the known harassment. She developed a brilliant tactic.
When a man would approach her and start to speak or attempt to touch her, she used to stop abruptly facing the man ..dramatically looking up to the sky, both palms open, and with her highest most annoying pitch, used to say: LA ALLAH ELLA, ALLAH MOHAMED RASSOOL ALLAH and then looking at the man in the eyes: ALLAH YAKHODKOM YA KOFFAR.[Hope that God takes you, you unbelievers) And leave the man flabbergasted wallahy!!
My sister was with her one day, and told me this. I found it brilliant since it was successful.
Ohhh that sounds good! Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not.
My advice for foreign women would be:
Learn a short yet effectively stern Arabic vocabulary that would be able to deal with incidences of harassment. Such a vocabulary is not solely to confront the attacker but to also familiarize people in vicinity with what transpired to the foreign women. And by simple language I mean just that, one sentence should be something like: "Shame on you!! – shame on you!! – respect yourself!! and respect me!! – respect me!!! – I am a guest in your country!!" . Such should be said loudly and sternly enough so that people in the vicinity should hear you. Repeat this enough times to gather attention.
Then insha allah when people gather, the violated foreign women should say in a lower yet stern voice. "This man (while pointing at him) has touched me in an inappropriate way". repeat this a few times.
Foreign women should also file complaints in police stations and they should also pursue these complaints, regardless if the police take them seriously or not. All these complaints should hopefully gain the interest of the press and that would be a very good thing. Also foreign women should lobby anyone and every organization that will lend them an ear in this regard. Write your foreign ministers, home secretary, write the consuls and ambassadors and UN organizations, etc and inform them of your ordeals. In other words apply some kind of pressure on the Egyptian government through these sources.
Be proactive and take this seriously rather than what is stated here by some women who state ‘oh some guy touched my ass today” followed by the angry emoticon.
Last but not least avoid aggressive neighborhoods altogether and settle in civilized areas such as maadi where foreigners are respected more than other neighborhoods.
Carrying mase is also a very good option in the event that something like this occurs and especially in isolated areas. Mase them and then run as fast as you can, just make sure you don’t use mase when it is windy.
Doing nothing would be a defeat and whatever you do make sure you leave the scene of incidence feeling that you have tried your best.
Almaz's phrases would work cheers for that Almaz.
Ma'adi? civilised. Nope it happens there too.
The only place I have had no harassment at all has been my compound. We have security posted every 50 yds or so and every worker is warned not to approach residents so that works. Not a single comment or sly look even. Ma'adi was not somewhere I would consider free from harassment at all. Was that not where the slasher hung out?
I think everyone should mail the PM on the address above. Writing to our consulates etc will do nothing I feel. Every instance will require proof and you wont have that. They slink off into the shadows and the police will do diddley squat full stop if you stop them in the street.
We need the decent men in Egypt to put a stop to it when they hear it. Imagine if that was your wife. You would hate to think that men walked on by if your wife was being insulted or assaulted. But that is what happens here.
It is appalling to think that men sit in cafes and watch and listen to friends do this and do nothing about it.
Mace is a very good idea! is it available in Cairo?
In my expierence just that area's as Ma'adi attracks a certain kind of 'visitors' because they know the change to see foreign women is bigger. In my own area people know about me, and harassing me would bring them into big trouble. That hang-out spots like shopping-malls, coffeeshops, in area's frequented with foreigners, are ideal places to hang out for these men too. Cilantro Ma'adi would not be an ideal place to go for me, while the little one in Heliopolis should be. That's why I prefer to go to places where no foreigners are coming, but also have a certain rate of class. It's much more relaxed to sit down without getting Arabic insults, assuming you will not understand anyway, behind your back. I'm never alone, there is always an Egyptian male or female with me, but I noticed there is a difference between male or female guidance. Female guidance doesn't always stop them....
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: In my lifetime, living in the UK these are some of my experiences:
Sexual Assult
Family member raped
Stood at bus stop while a bloke stood next to me with a hard on OUTSIDE his trousers
Whistles, looks, comments especially in summer, when I wore less.
constantly men trying to 'cop off'
Men with girlfriends/wives still trying to 'cop off'
Men grabbing your back side when you walk past in a club
+ much much more
WOWWWWW Mrs, i really don't know where you lived in the uk but honestly i have NEVER heard such things happen. I am no saying that rape doesn't happen of course it does and yes men will beep a car or whisle but for all those things to happen to you or someone close - i am shocked.
I do know that the harrassment i got in Egypt was the biggest down fall for me when i lived there. I too could not leave the apartment without something happening it got to the point that my hubby didn't want me to do anything on my own Once on a microbus a man sitting directly behind me put his hand down the side of the chair and rubbed my leg, I grabbed his hand and twisted it as hard as i could and banged it on the door. I thought he would stop but heck no he then decided to put his hand between my chair and rub my bum. I must admit i lost it i turned around and begain punching him on the head and shouted. To be fair other men on the bus were very angry with him and slapped him too. The bus stopped and the driver chucked him off. I NEVER wear revealing clothes and am always covered (long sleeves long skirt/trousers) and i have had so many things happen to me it would take me a year to explain them but i do find it very sad but angry that this happens.
I must say though that shouting something arabic to them does help i often say "you are muslim yes? have some respect for yourself and for me - show me where your mama is so i can tell her what a good son she has"
posted
I guess it depends on whether you are egyptian or foreign. If foreign you can go to the police and the guy will be arrested. Expierenced that once. They offered to have the guy beaten for behaving as a dog. I simply told them not necessary and asked him to be released, the point was made.
posted
No it's not, Vader. In the country were I live, people have rights even if they did wrong. People are given a fair trial, no physical punishment from police officers and if convicted they get sentenced with serving time in a jail, community service etc.
IT'S NOT IN THE POWER OF THE POLICE TO PUNISH AN INDIVIDUAL. That's the problem with Egypt, constant violation of human rights!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: They're too busy shopping for a new pair of Dominatrix knee length boots with clear heels.
They should have their own store, Whores-R-Us.
Come on, VB, no need to write that. There are several reasons why we haven't received replies of Egyptian ladies yet and one of them is because they are hardly posting on ES anyway.
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: They're too busy shopping for a new pair of Dominatrix knee length boots with clear heels.
They should have their own store, Whores-R-Us.
Come on, VB, no need to write that. There are several reasons why we haven't received replies of Egyptian ladies yet and one of them is because they are hardly posting on ES anyway.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Not saying that if she isn't covered from head to toe it is deserved but reality here, too. I am a firm believer that women teach men how to treat them, from what I see a lot of the problems in Egypt come from the soceity telling the women not to say anything or fight back, apathy is appalling here! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I must admit i lost it i turned around and begain punching him on the head and shouted. To be fair other men on the bus were very angry with him and slapped him too. The bus stopped and the driver chucked him off. I NEVER wear revealing clothes and am always covered (long sleeves long skirt/trousers) and i have had so many things happen to me it would take me a year to explain them but i do find it very sad but angry that this happens. 
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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