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Author Topic: International Women's Day 8th March
citizen
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The revolution called for 'freedom, dignity and social justice'. Please come to Tahrir from 3-6pm Tuesday 8th March to demand that women are included in the rebuilding of society, in all political processes including amending the constitution, forming political parties, parliamentary and presidential elections.

Society will never prosper unless women enjoy legal, social and economic equality.

Bring a crowd, see you there!

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citizen
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No replies? I want at least a hundred ESers... so who's in?
Men, women... all welcome
Wear purple.. and bring a sign...
Yalla!

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Laura
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I can't be there physically, but am with you in spirit! VIVA WOMEN OF EGYPT!!
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An Exercise in Futility
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I don't think there's 100 ESers who live in Cairo Citizen!
I might come but will decide in the morning - have to factor in 4 hours travelling to and fro as well as the actual march itself! (PS the relevance of that is that I have had a chest infection for a few days and been very sleepy).

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citizen
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OK, thanks for the support, hope you feel better soon. ESers can bring neighbours, friends, fellow microbus passengers, anyone...
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Mynameisthis
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Where is the facebook page? [Confused]
Everything now has a facebook page!

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An Exercise in Futility
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This is about the one thing I haven't seen a FB page for!
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Laura
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I just saw it being tweetyed
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Mynameisthis
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http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q=International%20Women's%20Day&init=quick&tas=0.09816767181160269&ref=ts


There a few but none for Egypt.

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citizen
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A number of FB pages!
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=158626157525930¬if_t=event_wall#wall_posts

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=147149665349571&index=1

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Mynameisthis
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Oh....in Arabic [Big Grin]
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Ramses nemesis
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quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The revolution called for 'freedom, dignity and social justice'. Please come to Tahrir from 3-6pm Tuesday 8th March to demand that women are included in the rebuilding of society, in all political processes including amending the constitution, forming political parties, parliamentary and presidential elections.

Society will never prosper unless women enjoy legal, social and economic equality.

Bring a crowd, see you there!

I don't believe women are being excluded! and no, I'm not a male chauvinist or against women in any way, shape or form. In fact, at some point in the past I was almost a feminist. I still observe the IWD ever year (it's actually on 9th March).
I should also add that I'm against any more rallies or demos, irrespective of the cause. I think we've had enough. It's time now to give the situation the time to settle down and things to morph.
Peace!

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citizen
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXGy9AvwsHs&feature=player_embedded
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citizen
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http://www.internationalwomensday.com/

Events in every country. It's celebrated every year, coincided with the revolution this year...

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citizen
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkp4t5NYzVM

Exclusion of women isn't exclusive to Egypt...

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An Exercise in Futility
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Yes good video that. I didn't realise 100 women a year are killed by their current or former partner in the UK!
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Tareq
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Sad that some Egyptian women feel they have no role in everyday life, political life, society building..

You do not know that Egypt is My mother.!

Masr heya Ommi
[Smile]

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An Exercise in Futility
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This is from the UK's Reclaim the Night website:

"A recent survey by the young women’s magazine More in 2005 found that 95% of women don’t feel safe on the streets at night, and 65% don’t even feel safe during the day. 73% worry about being raped and almost half say they sometimes don’t want to go out because they fear for their own safety.

In every sphere of life we negotiate the threat or reality of rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment. We cannot claim equal citizenship while this threat restricts our lives as it does. We demand the right to use public space without fear. We demand this right as a civil liberty, we demand this as a human right."

It's an international issue.

http://www.reclaimthenight.org/why.html

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Dalia*
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Egyptian revolution sidelining women?


One hundred years ago, more than a million people marched in streets across Europe on the first International Women’s Day. They called for an end to discrimination and for women to have the same rights as men to work, vote and shape the future of their countries.

One hundred years on, the reality is that women are still much more likely to be poor and illiterate. They earn only 10 percent of the world’s income but perform two thirds of the world’s work. They produce up to 80 percent of the food in developing countries but own only one percent of the land.

In many countries, they are still told what they can do, or even what they can wear. Women in Saudi Arabia, Chechnya and Iran face harassment if they don’t observe conservative religious dress codes. In contrast, Muslim women in Belgium, France and some parts of Spain may soon break the law there if they do observe them.

Women campaigning for change are often met with derision, abuse or worse. In places like Russia, the Philippines, Mexico and Nepal, leading activists have recently been murdered for speaking out. In China, Bangladesh, India, Zimbabwe and many other countries, they are routinely detained and tortured.

Yet the international community largely ignores these facts. Women's inequality is seen as regrettable but inevitable.

The dramatic events of the past two months have witnessed millions taking to the streets throughout the Middle East and North Africa to call for change.

Women stood beside men as they demanded comprehensive reform and an end to political repression. Both women and men have suffered under these repressive governments. But women have also had to cope with discriminatory laws and deeply entrenched gender inequality.

So it’s no wonder that women took to the streets, cheered loudly when former President Hosni Mubarak fell, and wanted to believe the promise of a new dawn in Egyptian politics. But it remains to be seen how much will really change for the women of Egypt.

Many governments--including many from the West--still only seem to support women’s rights when it’s convenient, and their rights are often used as bargaining chips in the struggle for control of the international agenda.

When negotiations with the Taliban seem like a good step, suddenly women's rights don't matter so much. When they need Pakistan as an ally, they accept the Pakistani government giving autonomy to regions of the country where women are utterly victimized by a parallel legal system. And alliances are made in Iraq with militia that in their spare time attack and kill women’s rights activists.

And so it goes in Egypt, where, as the country begins to look to its future, women are in danger of being sidelined again.

Incredibly, despite decades of discrimination and inequality, women are being denied a role in the creation of a new Egypt. They are being excluded by both the caretaker government and the international community. Most recently, a new national committee formed to write the new Egyptian constitution was composed only of men. This is not acceptable.

If the international community truly cared about women's rights in Egypt, they would be championing women's participation in every aspect of building new systems and institutions.

This behavior by the interim authorities and the international community betrays a sense of paternalism all too familiar to Egyptian women who have spent decades living under an oppressive government supported by supposedly rights-respecting states.

As existing governments scramble to change and new governments emerge, all must commit to respecting women's equality, both in law and in practice. But women will only have that equality if they actively engage in all the negotiations and decisions taking place during this time of transition.

For the promise of change in Egypt and elsewhere in the region---and the world--to materialize, women of diverse backgrounds and political persuasions must be at the table as full partners.

A lot has changed in the last 100 years, and yet many of the same problems remain. In many countries, government commitments to reforms have lagged. Discrimination still cuts deeply across societies, leaving a trail of inequality in its wake.

The call for equality, fairness and respect was at the heart of the first International Women’s Day. A century on, it still is.


http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/343644

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Dalia*
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What the Muslim Brotherhood thinks about working women.

(Interesting, btw., that they equate being a feminist with carrying a stick in your car, being violent/aggressive, and shouting at the bauwab! [Roll Eyes] )


The Other Side of Feminism

The Illusion of Choice

Do women pursue a career out of choice or under pressure to conform? How does Islam view work in general and women’s work in particular?

In the previous 3 parts of this series, we have discussed some negative effects of feminism on the modern woman:

•How they were manipulated to serve commercial purposes at the expense of their wellbeing

• How they were made to feel guilty for being women and for needing men

•Replacing family with a career

•Pursuing casual sex rather than marital commitment and stability.

We have also explored the effects of those massive changes on women’s moral values, psychology and physiology, as well as the enormous social pressures that prevent women from reconnecting with who they really are under the pretext of “rights” and “empowerment”.

*-*-*-*-*

Women worldwide have learnt to pursue college education and a career as a top priority by default, putting their own natural and legitimate needs on hold relegating them to being less important. Women who do not follow this pattern are labeled “losers”, “drop outs” or “oppressed.

While knowledge is definitely a must, and useful work is crucial for a person’s sanity and sense of purpose, women must also have the right to decide for themselves how to design and spend their lives, to retain their individuality and sense of self. If humans are expected to fit into a rigid frame or else be regarded as failures, then the choice they think they have is simply an illusion.

In this context, women today are much weaker than ever because they are not free to choose between options. Instead, they are forced to suppress their natural inclinations, and disturb their natural balance in order to fit a standard frame imposed by others.

Women and Work-life balance

By modern psychological standards, a work-life balance involves taking control of one’s life to get a daily dose of both achievement and enjoyment within the four areas of life: work, family, friends, and self. This balance helps maintain psychological wellbeing necessary for leading a healthy and diverse life, without feeling like a clone or a machine, or letting one activity monopolize one’s time and effort, because this imbalance leads to feelings of exhaustion, emptiness and useless, which result in extreme stress and unhappiness.

In reality, the work-life balance is more of a dream than an applicable system to the majority of people. Everyone complains that after the daily struggle of a full time job, no time or effort is left for anything else. Women in particular suffer the most under these conditions, because their emotions are more intense, and their needs are at odds with this depleting routine. A new report from the University of Melbourne shows that women suffer more job-related depression than men. Job demands which turn them into “automatons” without recognition or reward result in deep clinical depression.

Work vs. Career

I often wonder:

· Why is work suddenly synonymous with “career”?

· Why only a full day schedule for at least 5 days a week qualifies as “work” nowadays?

· Why is anyone who doesn’t conform to this system seen as inferior, regardless of the added value of the creative or unusual kind of work they do?

· Why has pursuing a career become a goal in itself, not a means to a better life – as work should be?

Students,whether male or female, are expected to start pursuing a “career” as soon as they graduate, which often refers to a highly specialized job with a prestigious organization. Career path planning is a skill to be learnt in courses. One of life’s top goals and priorities for young people is to constantly progress in a career.

While this is wonderful for a young man whose main ambition is job success as a means to starting and supporting a family and having a stable life, it should be less of a priority for a young woman for whom fulfillment comes from exercising her femininity to the fullest and I don’t mean by putting on her “Amazon woman” armor, then camouflaging it with tight short skirts, high heels, heavy makeup and jogging after a bus at 7 in the morning to get to work on time; but by simply being a woman - a soft, poised lovely being with lots of inner beauty and oceans of faith and emotions. A “woman” who nurtures, loves, cares, and spreads warmth and love in the world; a wife and mother - and eventually a grandmother whose fondest memories are not of smashing presentations in the boardroom, but of first baby words in the nursery room.

It is time to admit that what a woman does to nurture others (young and old) is highly specialized work which no one else but her can do: Latest research shows that children of middle class working mothers cannot talk properly because of lack of interaction, and must be helped by other close relatives, such as grandparents, to be able to acquire the necessary language skills. Children as old as three years were found in the UK who could not speak one word because of lack of interaction! How does that compare to a salary raise or a job promotion?

Islam’s Work-Life Balance vs. the Protestant Work Ethic

Islam’s balanced and holistic approach to life is built on a solid core, advocating realistic priorities and goals, and considering natural man-woman roles and preferences. Planning for this life is considered shortterm by Islamic standards, as life in Islam is infinite in length; therefore, long term includes after-life as well. Amassing wealth or material goods is no indication of special privilege from God; to the contrary, it’s viewed as a serious test for the rich. This is at odds with the Protestant “work ethic” ruling the western world today, which views material success as a sign of God’s approval and a ticket to Heaven.

Work in Islam. as a basic concept of high value refers to one’s complete record of deeds in a lifetime, not just at the job. No Muslim man woman or child is exempt from doing good deeds and contributing to improving life for oneself and others. Women are guaranteed financial support by male family members so they are not pressured to provide for themselves, in return for performing their female roles within the family and society. They are also allowed to have a job as long as they do not compromise core values in the process. The concept of a career where work is the top priority in life at the expense of anything and everything else is non-existent.

People under Islam are not expected to be identical copies either; instead, individuality and creativity are recognized within a general framework of balanced laws. Islam also advocates consuming responsibly: extravagance and falling slave to haphazard consumerism for status or showing off is unacceptable.

Choice is a Responsibility and a Human Right in Islam

Humans are given that right by God in the Qur’an. Every adult man and woman is accountable and requiredto make choices. It is actually a punishable sin in Islam to willingly give up one’s right of choice, and turn into a mindless follower in order to evade responsibility, and blame the consequences on others. God forgives sins if repented and followed by good deeds, so there is no excuse for being passive.

Families should realize their massive responsibility in steering their daughters towards a proper future, but once a girl reaches puberty she is accountable for her own choices, and she cannot simply blame the results of her bad choices on others, including her family, society or the media.

She is required to get an education in order to make good choices in this life, in preparation for a thorough evaluation by God Himself in the next life. This is the lesson Muslim parents should teach above all else!


Do Career-Women Really Have a Choice?

This brings to mind the classic manipulative approach: would you like to do the dishes before or after dinner? While offering an illusionary choice, this approach actually imposes an action on you whether you like it or not. Actually, you could choose to do the dishes tomorrow, delegate the task to someone else, or simply refuse to do it altogether. Same free approach applies to making major life choices.

Most of my career-women friends do not need the money because they come from well off backgrounds; work to them is usually an escape from loneliness or from admitting they know no other way of spending their lives as females. They drive long hours in terrible traffic, eat junk because they have no time to eat at home, work long hours and travel a lot in often unsafe environments, dress uncomfortably or un-Islamically to “impress”, wear make up to mask their fatigue, go to an expensive gym right after work -instead of home to rest- feeling guilty about their unhealthy life styles and their “ugly” bodies. They cry themselves to sleep out of loneliness, and indulge in partying or expensive shopping on weekends to justify their depressing lives. They almost boast of their inability to cook, do housework, or finding time to read, and they are not impressed by the men who propose marriage to them.

Who benefits from destroying so many beautiful young women in the ruthless corporate grind? Is anyone aware of the mass devastation of female identity? What are women themselves doing –other than complying- to regain their birthrights?

------------------------------


Real Experience From a Female Reader

Here is what a female reader wrote to me in reaction to these articles. She’s in her early 30’s and holds a top position in a multinational organization in Cairo:

“Yes, there is a deliberate change that is affecting all of us and yes, women’s attitude affects the treatment they receive from men. I don’t want to become a man, I love being a woman, but being a woman is a real weight on my shoulders in our society, where ethics and manners are expressed in “appearances” rather than in true practices.

“Being a woman doesn’t seem to be enough to get through the daily battle with men who are waiting to attack at work, on the street or in personal life. I believe women were forced to change their behaviors and personalities (sometimes their looks as well) to be able to compete and cope. Becoming a radical feminist might have been a deliberate choice for some women, but it wasn’t an option for the rest of us. We had no choice but to change to defend ourselves! We can’t win accepting the tradition female roles or characteristics.

“I have changed drastically since my father passed away, and unfortunately nothing worked except being so aggressive and even violent. I have an iron stick now in my car to protect myself, I raise my voice at my colleagues at work and shout at our doorman so they’d respect me and do their work.

“Am I becoming really harsh and aggressive? Yes! Unfortunately, I am learning many negative skills from men, but do you think I chose this? I hope this shows why “feminism” is the only option!”

This insightful comment is testimony to the deliberate and systematic change of our individual and social values to serve corporate interests, regardless of the wellbeing of women. Note the reader’s use of the words “battle, attack, defend, aggressive, violent” in describing her relationship with society, work, and men. Obviously, our society has been changed so much that the Islamic ideal of unconditional male protection for every woman has become ridiculous and naďve. Muslim women should not be left to feel so vulnerable that they have to willingly change into mutant men to survive. It is destructive to compromise our values to match a system built on totally different principles to serve entirely different purposes. Women do not have to accept such damaging conditions, they must start exploring the options, and stand up for their true rights to be “real women”.

But what should a woman do with a good education? How could she work without letting career replace her feminine priorities? And how are men responding to these drastic social changes? These and more are themes to explore in the next articles.



http://www.islamonline.net/en/IOLYouth_C/1278407326416/1278406711626/-The-Illusion-of-Choice-

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Laura
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I'm seeing some reports that men are harassing the women and shouting ugly things at them. [Eek!] [Frown]
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A man just yelled at me: Women aren't allowed to be on the streets in the first place.

Now anti demo from men: Men are men, women are women. #Egypt #Jan25 #WomensRights

Anti #WomensRights demo. #Egypt #Jan25 http://twitpic.com/47gypr

A guy just lifted his shoe at us. Happy women's day!

http://twitter.com/#!/Egyptocracy


No doubt this was about to happen. How many of them will get smacked today upon returning home??? [Frown]

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Laura
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This should go down as a very black day for democracy in Egypt!
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Dalia*
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quote:
Men are men, women are women.
Brilliant insight. [Big Grin]
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Tareq
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وشهد الميدان اشتباكات بين القائمات على المسيرة والمعتصمين الذين رفضوا المطالب التى ترفعها الناشطات وظلوا يهتفون "بره بره"، كما تبادلوا فيما بينهم اتهام الناشطات بأنهن أجانب، ولسن مصريات، واشتبكت إحدى السيدات مع أحد المصورين، مما أدى إلى نشوب تشابك بالأيدى وتعثر حركة المرور.
ومن المنتظر أن يقام حفل مساء اليوم لتكريم شهيدات الثورة المصرية

the protesters ( the rest of revolutionaries) in The midan clashed with the pro women rights ( aka western feminism) . They said to them "out out" and they accused them of being foreigners and non Egyptian..


My comment on this:

Foreigner culture of women rights will not work here in Egypt Because of Lots of cultural differences.

Egypt is not a western country. I do not think It will ever be.

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An Exercise in Futility
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Well I just got back from there.

I travelled there on microbus + metro and back again on metro and minibus (that's the small bus bigger than a microbus).

Things were a little bit confusing with some women on the central area with the tents and others outside Tahrir.

Anyway, I got there about 2pm and spent a couple of hours mooching about talking to people before finally managing to meet up with Citizen for a while!

There seemed to be a couple of demonstrations today - one was the women's thing and the other I didn't catch but might also have been that - let's just say things were a bit confusing!!
(Btw I'm not talking about the men's demo - there was another one with mixed men and women marching along the road for about 10 minutes).

I did talk with some of those guys who were against the women's day. At first I had a joke over them saying I should go home and cook for my husband and I said if I did he would die. But their main point (which they explained to me anyway) was that at the moment they
are demonstrating for One Egypt and the International Womens' Day was divisive because (1)It was not Egyptian and (2) It was dividing between men and women. Well it's a point of view and one that has been expressed by others.

Anyway, there were also plenty of men in support of it giving out 'aims of the women's day' leaflets and stickers advertising Harassmap.

Everyone was really nice and a few people just came up and said "Thank You" (for being a tourist), a few asked me what I thought about it (the revolution generally), I got my hands painted in Egyptian flags and my hands were photoed by quite a few people [Smile]

There were a number of banners and areas dedicated to the martyrs, and I was touched by a row of quite elderly women all dressed in black abayas but with Egyptian flags and posters painted on them who seemed to be related to the martyrs.

There were lots of groups having open discussion eg two women - one in niqab and one uncovered having a heated debate with men listening intently, another group obviously MB - involved in heated debates, and other groups discussing and arguing other points. (Obviously my Arabic isn't good enough to understand debates in full flow let alone I couldn't hear it clearly enough) but from my point of view seeing something not unalike 'speakers corner' in Hyde Park, London on a Sunday was encouraging).

If you want to go up onto the central bit where the tents are, then you have to show ID to the volunteers (my UK provisional driving licence does the trick as I don't like carrying my passport about).

I also noted that volunteers were doing the traffic cop duties.

There are zillions of flags, t-shirts, badges available all round the area.

I enjoyed it and glad I went up - first time I've been up there since the revolution!

In other related news:

(1) In the metro carriages I used today (women's ones), I noted that the metro station known as Mubarak had had its Arabic name scratched out and replaced with الشهداء(martyrs)

(2) One version of the Lara Logan incident mentions bus stops in Tahrir - I noted two today - both near the Arab League building, one on the Mogamma side of the road and one on the same side of the road near one of the entrances to the metro. If I were going to give some credence to that version of events, then the one near the metro is the one I would say it could have most easily occurred at.

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An Exercise in Futility
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PS While I was there, one of the women I was talking to got a text from a friend of hers saying she had just seen on the news that cars were being burned outside the mogamma. let's just say that we were standing looking at the mogamma and there weren't any cars on fire. So unless there were a couple at the back of the building burning with no smoke, then ... take the news with a pinch of salt.

PPS Don't focus on the men who were against it, focus on the many there who were FOR it! I mean we all see how idiots opposed the ordination of women priests in the UK for years and now oppose the ordination of women bishops. Unreconstructed neanderthal males are not restricted to Egypt by a long long chalk.

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Laura
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How interesting that you saw things entirely different than all these tweetiers Shanta. I kept checking the news to see if their was any coverage on it, and all they were showing was the Demo with the Copts.
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*Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by Tareq:

Foreigner culture of women rights

[Roll Eyes]
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Laura
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quote:
Originally posted by Tareq:
وشهد الميدان اشتباكات بين القائمات على المسيرة والمعتصمين الذين رفضوا المطالب التى ترفعها الناشطات وظلوا يهتفون "بره بره"، كما تبادلوا فيما بينهم اتهام الناشطات بأنهن أجانب، ولسن مصريات، واشتبكت إحدى السيدات مع أحد المصورين، مما أدى إلى نشوب تشابك بالأيدى وتعثر حركة المرور.
ومن المنتظر أن يقام حفل مساء اليوم لتكريم شهيدات الثورة المصرية

the protesters ( the rest of revolutionaries) in The midan clashed with the pro women rights ( aka western feminism) . They said to them "out out" and they accused them of being foreigners and non Egyptian..


My comment on this:

Foreigner culture of women rights will not work here in Egypt Because of Lots of cultural differences.

Egypt is not a western country. I do not think It will ever be.

Tareq, please define democracy for us.
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An Exercise in Futility
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I was just me and I wasn't everywhere and I'm a foreigner so I am willing to accept that my experience is not necessarily the same as that of others present today.
However, that is how I felt it to be.

In the UK, we are used to people holding different opinions and expressing them. At any demonstration, you will ALWAYS get a counter demonstration from those opposed to your views and sometimes these end up in a ruckus. This is completely normal in a functioning democracy.

This is something that maybe Egyptians will have to get used to and accept - and I say that without knowing the history of Egyptian demonstrations - it doesn't necessarily mean 'the end of life as we know it'.

We also know that in all societies, there are a hard-core of unreconstructed males who have some bizarre view that all women like cooking and sewing (I don't) and all men are better at maths than all women (crap - I am a zillion times better at maths than almost any man on this planet). I even had an argument along these lines on the London metro one night. And everything these two men said I trumped. Eventually they were reduced to saying "men have bigger feet"... oh do they indeed I responded waving my size 10s (American size 12s) at them.... at which point they went into a sulk and shut up.

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An Exercise in Futility
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And if men want women to live in some 1000 year old state of being - then they should also do the same and give up:

mobile phones, plasma screen tvs, the internet, cars, football matches, computers, radios, electricity in general, clean water direct from a tap, most medicines and medical treatments.

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An Exercise in Futility
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I hope Citizen posts up her impressions because she would have also had her own experiences different to mine!

@Laura - you may have noted I have an insatiable desire to go see things for myself instead of relying on other people's perspectives [Smile]

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Laura
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanta Gdeeda:

@Laura - you may have noted I have an insatiable desire to go see things for myself instead of relying on other people's perspectives [Smile] [/QB]

I like and respect that Shanta [Smile]
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Tareq
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Yep, May be My situation is not clear

I personally believe women's rights that is needed in Egypt should never come from western countries because the culture is not the same

I am with a change to more freedom and rights for women but It should not come from outside ideas or ways. and I am generally speaking here.

And yes I expect Dalia to object and shanta to not understand and Laura to wonder and others to disagree. lol

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Tareq
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalia*:

that they equate being a feminist with carrying a stick in your car, being violent/aggressive, and shouting at the bauwab!


Most of Egyptian (women before men) think this way not only the MB.
and The culture plays a great role here.

and Since you Dalia told me one day here to not Judge a western by a middle eastern/ egyptian culture, I tell you to do the same here.

and For you information, I always have a neutral point of view.

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*Dalia*
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Shanta, thanks for your report. Interesting. [Smile] Wish I could have come along.

I heard something about a demonstration by Christians today, maybe that's what you observed?


quote:
Originally posted by Tareq:
quote:
Originally posted by Dalia*:
that they equate being a feminist with carrying a stick in your car, being violent/aggressive, and shouting at the bauwab!

Most of Egyptian (women before men) think this way not only the MB.
Well, that just shows that they have a very distorted idea of what feminism means. Maybe they should ask one instead of guessing and relying on what others say about them.

If someone who is not Muslim, has never in his life spoken to a Muslim had some weird preconceptions about what they think and do, you would tell him that he should get his information from first hand sources instead of relying on hearsay or media. Same thing.


quote:
Originally posted by Tareq:

I personally believe women's rights that is needed in Egypt should never come from western countries

Oh, definitely. But you are obviously under the misconception that Egyptian women demanding their human rights is something "coming from Western countries".

Hang on … haven't we just heard the same argument just a few weeks ago? Egyptians are not protesting because they are fed up with Mubarak and fed up with getting their human rights violated. Oh no, they've been manipulated into doing it by foreign forces. Seems it's the standard reply whenever anyone challenges the long-established status quo and balance of power.
[Roll Eyes]


quote:
Originally posted by Tareq:

I always have a neutral point of view.

[Big Grin]
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Tareq
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Women's rights are very much deeper. removing mubarak or keeping mubarak can't be compared in any way.

Don't show your teeth in this green face.

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Tareq
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I am not under the misconception that Egyptian women demanding their human rights is something "coming from Western countries

What Egyptian women are you talking about? Cairo Residents? or upper egyptian women? or what egyptian women?

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Laura
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I know where you are coming from Tareq, I have many family members who would agree with you completely. Things take time, and hopefully as the months pass, and a sort of "normality" returns to everyday life here, this is one important issue that will be fully addressed.
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adelly
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I am a muslim and married to an egyptian, but tareq democracy means equal voice for everyone regardless of their sex, social class or religion.
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Exiiled
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Re: Democracy/Women's rights

Democracy is solidified with laws and institutions. Egypt is still in a transition. We have yet to witness establishment of democratic institutions and democratic laws. It will take time and Cairene women will feel it first before upper Egypt women. Before women get their true rights the following most occur to protect such rights on a national level:

1. New Constitution (equality laws, freedom of speech, affirmative action laws, etc)

2. Elected government (elected president, elected parliament, elected governors, etc)

3. Impartial Judiciary

Egyptian women will have a voice and they will be very powerful. Just think of the voting power they will have. Wait and see.

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Mynameisthis
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I dislike laws, institutions and to some extent democracy. I just don't like the way people enslave themselves to laws and institutions and forget that these things are there to serve the people and should always be subject to change. People talk about the constitution as if it is divine. And right now another concern I have is the army and the unreasonable respect and acceptance people have for it. I wondered during the revolution and continue to wonder at the lack of leadership in Egyptian communities. To this day I do not see community thinkers/leaders organizing their communities to manage their own affairs and supervise the various levels of government first hand. Generally speaking whenever I say democracy I mean Freedom, Justice and Civic Duty. We should not need laws to grant or recognize women as equal we need to understand it as fact and act it.
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An Exercise in Futility
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Interestingly, this woman's feelings were similar to mine:

http://www.arabist.net/blog/2011/3/8/international-womens-day-in-cairo.html

Obviously, whatever kicked off happened after we left.

In a way it is a pity that this day (internationally decided and repeated annually) fell in the middle of the revolution. Was it right to go ahead with it now or not here in Egypt, all things considered? People will have their own views on the subject.

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citizen
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It did get ugly after you left, Shanta. Each of us got involved in very heated debates with groups of young men and women. Some of them were curious and responsive but others just dismissive and abusive. I didn't actually get a chance to move from the corner I was standing on. The trouble started in the centre where a group of men started yelling 'Barra, barra (out, out), go home and do the washing' and other such slogans. They pushed into the crowd and the supportive men tried to push them back. Some women caught got in the middle and groped. It happened around 5-5.15pm I think. We stayed on till 6 as arranged, we weren't going to be deprived of our right to be in a public space, but the whole atmosphere had turned sour and we didn't know which of the men milling around were for or against.

Anyway, we learnt a lot. A whole lot of re-education needs to start now. We know the kind of objections we're going to face, so we can prepare ourselves next time. And more importantly, we need to reach the women who may not be able to move far from their homes.

Here's a short video showing the harrassment.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150101308432493&oid=122038224485055&comments

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Honestly equality is not practical in a Muslim-dominated society. Don't even try to imagine that the new Egypt could look like any of the developed Western societies. This is truly wishful thinking.

Yes women will be able to gain overall more rights in time and some will achieve to work in higher positions (and in this regard Egypt already achieved some good progress compared to other Muslim nations) but in the end of the day its a culture in which the men dominate and rule.

And a new government will not change this kind of thinking through laws. It can support equality but it has to come from the people themselves - in this case the men. Are they ready for a change like that? Sadly no; not at all.

You know when Egyptian men will be ready to accept women as equal counterparts - it's when the widespread sexual harassment will stop. There is absolutely no respect shown to women by too many men. It's painful to watch, it's even more painful to be on the receiving end.

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citizen
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Tiger Lily, you are so cynical and pessimistic, we may as well all go commit suicide if we believe Egyptians, all of them, can't every enjoy freedom, democracy, equality and justice in their lives. What's to live for otherwise?

Just for everyone's information, there is an amazing flourishing right now of informal political discussion groups, everyone is SO enthused and excited and hopeful. This has never happened in anyone's living memory. Everyone wants to understand, participate, help. It's very exciiting really, I just hope all this energy will bear fruit.

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Chef Mick
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quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Tiger Lily, you are so cynical and pessimistic, we may as well all go commit suicide if we believe Egyptians, all of them, can't every enjoy freedom, democracy, equality and justice in their lives. What's to live for otherwise?

Just for everyone's information, there is an amazing flourishing right now of informal political discussion groups, everyone is SO enthused and excited and hopeful. This has never happened in anyone's living memory. Everyone wants to understand, participate, help. It's very exciiting really, I just hope all this energy will bear fruit.

exciting and wonderful [Wink]
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metinoot
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quote:
Originally posted by Tareq:
Sad that some Egyptian women feel they have no role in everyday life, political life, society building..

You do not know that Egypt is My mother.!

Masr heya Ommi
[Smile]

Egyptian women like women of the world have a role, whatever role they can manage when men continue to obstruct their options and won't view them as equals.

Women are just as human as you are, just not as entitled as you are.

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metinoot
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quote:
Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
Honestly equality is not practical in a Muslim-dominated society. Don't even try to imagine that the new Egypt could look like any of the developed Western societies. This is truly wishful thinking.

Yes women will be able to gain overall more rights in time and some will achieve to work in higher positions (and in this regard Egypt already achieved some good progress compared to other Muslim nations) but in the end of the day its a culture in which the men dominate and rule.

And a new government will not change this kind of thinking through laws. It can support equality but it has to come from the people themselves - in this case the men. Are they ready for a change like that? Sadly no; not at all.

You know when Egyptian men will be ready to accept women as equal counterparts - it's when the widespread sexual harassment will stop. There is absolutely no respect shown to women by too many men. It's painful to watch, it's even more painful to be on the receiving end.

honestly equality wasn't practical in German society over 60 years ago. Which is why you arseholes gassed several million people.
[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

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