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Ah Metinoot, one minute its the ex paying, next the inlaws. Can't keep up. Quite right though, none of my business. I was just curious.
You are kind of slighting this egy-tourismo-guy based on the assumption that he's a bludger whilst on the other hand bragging about doing that very same thing, but I'm going to let it go Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I live in a country where women are quite frankly considered second class citizens, virtually sold off into marriage by their families in the name of 'security', many are beaten, by fathers, brothers, husbands, they have to ask permission to leave the house, are treated like possessions .... and on and on and on .... And they are complicit in this.
Thats the Egyptians you know, its not the Egyptians I know.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: [QB]And we Westerners are behaving badly???
You selectively have read the posts on this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: [QB]And btw, it's not anti American to suggest that American women have less of a problem letting others pay for everything, it's true. It's a cultural difference, and I've noticed on here that when there is a discussion about holiday romances, and 'who pays for what' it is invariably Americans who remark 'if he doesn't pay for everything I'd be out of there.'
Not only did you start a thread to bash Egyptians but now you've moved onto Americans.
I didn't say my Egyptian ex-husband paid for everything state-side. I stated it was a private matter and I am not going to discuss it.
I always assumed British and European women paid for more because they are more likely to have a child out of wedlock and to live as partners without a legal marriage therefore the woman has to shell out more for the expenses in order to keep him around.
Overwhelmingly most American couples if both partners/spouses are working household expenses are shared 50/50; but women shell out more for children and household extras. Men pay for entertainment, eating out and indulgences.
But then again when Americans get divorced we do have a very great system to collect child support, and therefore fathers have more rights. And more American fathers get custody than European fathers by an extreme margin, in those cases women do pay child support and when they don't they go to jail just like the men!
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: [QB]I don't think Europeans think quite the same way, we can buy a guy a coffee without feeling slighted I think. If egyptian guys start feeling insecure about this, well maybe they'd better stay away from foreigners. It's not a criticism, just culture stuff.
Its a very misguided criticism, and way off. Normally in American soceity whomever asks the other person out pays for the date. After the third date is the custom to either go dutch or take turns paying.
And this is coming from a gal who has done a monsterous amount of dating over the last 4 years. And I live in a neighbhorhood in which 90% are still single.
I've dated European men and normally they want to pay for everything, but are also more likely to move on hard to the "marriage topic". Because its assumed us Ameircan women are more likely to work out marriage troubles than go straight to divorce court.
I also would never live with a guy before marriage, as soon as some Eurotwerp finds this out, its an incentive.
Yet European men find it obligatory to screw around on their wives as well which is a massive turnoff for American women. Hows that for "assumptions"?
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Ah Metinoot, one minute its the ex paying, next the inlaws. Can't keep up. Quite right though, none of my business. I was just curious.
You are kind of slighting this egy-tourismo-guy based on the assumption that he's a bludger whilst on the other hand bragging about doing that very same thing, but I'm going to let it go
Well my ex and in-laws fight over who is paying what.
Yes I am slighting the egy-guy tourism professional, its the only time I've seen foreigners pay for everything and then some.
You can let it go, but you will bring it up.
You fail to recognize that in Egypt you go with their mores and you can do whatever you'd like back in the UK.
Thats the intolerance I was refering to.
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I don't think it's a 'Me Man, You Woman' thing as such, or maybe it is, I think it's a control issue. And we hate to feel 'controlled' don't we? I invited a friend and his family out for a meal, and made it clear beforehand, to him, that I would be paying, they don't have a lot of cash[although I did say I'd give him the money to hand over if that was an issue]and when I asked where they'd like to eat, I was pretty surprised when he said that as I was paying, I had to decide the restaurant. weird. A control thing, i think. They just don't see money in the same way that we do. If I go for a coffee alone, even in my usual hangout, the waiter invariably goes all mimsy when I ask for the bill, bleating on that 'oh no! It's on the house!' or whatever. One day I will just say 'Thanks' and eat it and beat it! I have never been so conscious of being female until I came to Egypt.Which can be exhilarating at times, until I remember what that status is percieved as.[Sorry bad grammar.]
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I don't think it's a 'Me Man, You Woman' thing as such, or maybe it is, I think it's a control issue. And we hate to feel 'controlled' don't we? I invited a friend and his family out for a meal, and made it clear beforehand, to him, that I would be paying, they don't have a lot of cash[although I did say I'd give him the money to hand over if that was an issue]and when I asked where they'd like to eat, I was pretty surprised when he said that as I was paying, I had to decide the restaurant. weird. A control thing, i think. They just don't see money in the same way that we do. If I go for a coffee alone, even in my usual hangout, the waiter invariably goes all mimsy when I ask for the bill, bleating on that 'oh no! It's on the house!' or whatever. One day I will just say 'Thanks' and eat it and beat it! I have never been so conscious of being female until I came to Egypt.Which can be exhilarating at times, until I remember what that status is percieved as.[Sorry bad grammar.]
You assume whomever is paying is also making all the decisions.
asumptions again.
Its not a control issue is a matter of cultural mores.
I know when my grandmother's first cousins from Norway came over on vacation to visit the family then take off on a road trip, they went ahead and booked a hotel room in the same town which 3 of my grandmother's sisters lived.
They were hurt and shocked. Luckily the Norwegan cousins figured out after 2 of the 14 nights they paid for, that it as a major misstep.
So the hotel refunded them 10 nights and the Norwegan cousins stayed at my grandmas home and a few more nights at my grandaunt's homes.
The American cousins (grandma and her sisters) also took turns paying for outings, dinners and would not take money for gas. It was prohibited, and you don't argue with my grandma and her sisters.
The Norweigan cousins paid for their road trip, but again met up with relatives on the road trip, which again the American relatives paid for dinner/outings.
Its not like the American relatives chose the restuarant or outings, but since its our neck of the woods, our hometowns we gave suggestions.
Its not a matter of control its a matter of hospitality.
Now I am being encouraged to take a trip to Norway and I am told even if I do a road trip on a tour bus I am expected to leave several days to spend with relatives. I wouldn't doubt they'd pay.
Oh my goodness you brits are so anal.
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I love it when people say "you're anal" as a slur. Rather be known as anally retentive than someone who likes to play with their own poop Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I love it when people say "you're anal" as a slur. Rather be known as anally retentive than someone who likes to play with their own poop
and you are the one who has to make the second remark not me.
Anal retentive, is inflexible, controlling, intolerant and oblivious to the needs of others. Just saying
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And anally expulsive includes being disorganised, messy, careless, rebellious, and sometimes cruel.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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I don't see wanting to be in control and take charge of your own life to be much of an insult. Much better to be in control than be controlled like your ex in laws did to you!!!
I have never heard that term before either... ah crap, I am so not British.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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No it isn't. Just studied Freud for a bit at college. Opposite of anally retentive is anally expulsive. Know what I'd rather be - that's all I'm saying.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I don't see wanting to be in control and take charge of your own life to be much of an insult. Much better to be in control than be controlled like your ex in laws did to you!!!
So let me understand, the only way to be not under the control of your Egyptian in-laws is to pay for everything and not stay in their home.
Okaaaayyy, explains why Brit money goes into Egypt and doesn't go out of Egypt.
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You assume whomever is paying is also making all the decisions. No, you misunderstood that.
It is neither a thread about knocking Egyptians, nor is it about you, sorry. Please stop this 'I only know posh people' stuff. Don't embarrass yourself.Most of us don't check out our friend's pedigrees. You haven't lived here have you? A few trips visiting inlaws doesn't give you the full picture I'm afraid.If you live in a place you meet hundreds of people every day, just about all of them pretty friendly, proactively so, I'd say. What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party. I certainly see people greeting friends here effusively, then moaning about them when they leave.And so much of Egyptian life is involved with manners, the right form of address, courtesies and so on, and how much is real? How much is just formalities? I don't ever judge how much someone likes me by how much they spend on me. Crikey. No I am not trying to pick a fight with you Metinoot, people here rarely are.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No it isn't. Just studied Freud for a bit at college. Opposite of anally retentive is anally expulsive. Know what I'd rather be - that's all I'm saying.
Phew... I was more of a Jung girl myself Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I don't see wanting to be in control and take charge of your own life to be much of an insult. Much better to be in control than be controlled like your ex in laws did to you!!!
So let me understand, the only way to be not under the control of your Egyptian in-laws is to pay for everything and not stay in their home.
Okaaaayyy, explains why Brit money goes into Egypt and doesn't go out of Egypt.
How does your in laws not letting you go out alone as they probably heard about your loose morals explain British financial economics???
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: You assume whomever is paying is also making all the decisions. No, you misunderstood that.
It is neither a thread about knocking Egyptians, nor is it about you, sorry. Please stop this 'I only know posh people' stuff. Don't embarrass yourself.Most of us don't check out our friend's pedigrees. You haven't lived here have you? A few trips visiting inlaws doesn't give you the full picture I'm afraid.If you live in a place you meet hundreds of people every day, just about all of them pretty friendly, proactively so, I'd say. What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party. I certainly see people greeting friends here effusively, then moaning about them when they leave.And so much of Egyptian life is involved with manners, the right form of address, courtesies and so on, and how much is real? How much is just formalities? I don't ever judge how much someone likes me by how much they spend on me. Crikey. No I am not trying to pick a fight with you Metinoot, people here rarely are.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I don't think it's a 'Me Man, You Woman' thing as such, or maybe it is, I think it's a control issue. And we hate to feel 'controlled' don't we? I invited a friend and his family out for a meal, and made it clear beforehand, to him, that I would be paying, they don't have a lot of cash[although I did say I'd give him the money to hand over if that was an issue]and when I asked where they'd like to eat, I was pretty surprised when he said that as I was paying, I had to decide the restaurant. weird. A control thing, i think. They just don't see money in the same way that we do. If I go for a coffee alone, even in my usual hangout, the waiter invariably goes all mimsy when I ask for the bill, bleating on that 'oh no! It's on the house!' or whatever. One day I will just say 'Thanks' and eat it and beat it! I have never been so conscious of being female until I came to Egypt.Which can be exhilarating at times, until I remember what that status is percieved as.[Sorry bad grammar.]
Your exact words.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Most of us don't check out our friend's pedigrees.
But its very common for Egyptians to introduce themselves with references to family, social rank and profession.
thats if they speak English.
quote:You haven't lived here have you? A few trips visiting inlaws doesn't give you the full picture I'm afraid.
Neither does marrying a egyptian gigilo.
You are in a similar situation to that of Laura, as you claim, but Laura's hubby is still alive. Yet Laura doesn't grip about the same "control" issues or "gigiloism" as you do.
quote:I don't ever judge how much someone likes me by how much they spend on me.
and you assume thats how I judge my in-laws. Actually that doesn't even enter my mind. There are other factors that mean much more to me. But I won't discuss those factors here, because I'd rather not bad-mouth or even give detailed praises of my in-laws.
quote:No I am not trying to pick a fight with you Metinoot, people here rarely are.
Actually I find regular ES posters especially brits have this "my way or the highway" attitude.
If you disagree with them, they find it a slight against them.
Rarely does a discussion come down to "we agree to disagree".
Other American women have had my similar experiences to mine, but they don't post often.
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Hey I only read it because I had to And the whole "imprinting" thing with baby ducks following a match box around thinking it was their mum.
Damn cruel to animals that psychology lot.
If I'd wanted to take it further I had to find an under 4 to study. I found this a little creepy myself.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: How does your in laws not letting you go out alone as they probably heard about your loose morals explain British financial economics???
Actually I have stated I go out alone on occassion.
They haven't heard about loose morals because I don't behave in that manner in Egypt.
And they don't really discuss tourists at all.
But if I go out for an alcoholic beverage it will be in the USA with a friend, not Egypt.
if I go to a pharmacy to buy anything they go with to make sure I am not buying the wrong product. It helps when there is a pharmacist in the family. And he doesn't off load pain-killers on me because I don't take them.
Then again I don't hang out with men who I am not related to unless I have a family member present. Its not that big of a deal.
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Oh golly. I now have a fantasy Egyptian gigolo husband. A dead one too.
BTW Monkey, did you read the one about the poor baby monkey that was given a wire 'mother' which gave milk, and a 'cuddly mother' which didn't.Soooo sad, poor thing nearly starved.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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Not read it all yet but what I have I'm seeing sono the mushroom big time.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party. I certainly see people greeting friends here effusively, then moaning about them when they leave.And so much of Egyptian life is involved with manners, the right form of address, courtesies and so on, and how much is real? How much is just formalities?
Well was also discussing this a couple of days ago with a female 'foreigner' friend.
We were talking about how if you meet a new Egyptian female friend, even if she is married with children, she will seem to want to take over your whole life, be your only friend want to see you or phone you every day, and smother you with 'I miss you' and 'I love you'. It is then entirely normal for her to make an arrangement with you, drop you like a hot potato because something came up and not call you to say she's not coming and then not contact you for 2 weeks or so to even apologize or explain!
I do also recall a few years ago misunderstanding a male's intentions when he kept saying "I miss you" and a discreet word with a friend of his revealed that it just does NOT mean the same as it does in normal British English where a guy telling a gal he misses her implies a level of romantic interest. His friend explained that in Egypt it is something they are taught to say as it is considered a politeness (which was a relief to me!)
So anyway, you have to kind of dilute the slush quite a lot to reach the true intention. The problem IS, the kind of gushy sentimentalness that is just a normal average everyday level here can make a Brit feel very guilty about having to say 'I'm sorry I can't meet you I'm busy' or whatever because of what is interpreted as depth as feeling from the choice of words.
I don't know how it comes across to Americans though because on the whole Americans seem to be a lot more sentimental than Brits - like when all American tv series have that slushy 'I love you mom, I love you son' bit in them - we Northern Europeans are a hard lot LOL
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: How does your in laws not letting you go out alone as they probably heard about your loose morals explain British financial economics???
They haven't heard about loose morals because I don't behave in that manner in Egypt.
The flap pics would have been a rare treat then Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ouch ouch, Ayisha that made my sides hurt Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Oh golly. I now have a fantasy Egyptian gigolo husband. A dead one too.
BTW Monkey, did you read the one about the poor baby monkey that was given a wire 'mother' which gave milk, and a 'cuddly mother' which didn't.Soooo sad, poor thing nearly starved.
No I didn't see that one. I saw the one where they kept a cat shut in the dark only to discover that you go blind if you're starved of light. No $hit. Ever seen a mole? Sorry, can't be doing with all that. To save lives is one thing but just for the hell of it is cruel. Beyond cruel. Rotten.
I'm not the most observant person in the world, but the Egyptian husband bit threw me too.
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Oh hell yeah, framed in some gawdy gold frame and have pride of place over the TV in the living room next to Uncle Mo's family portrait Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I live in a country where women are quite frankly considered second class citizens, virtually sold off into marriage by their families in the name of 'security', many are beaten, by fathers, brothers, husbands, they have to ask permission to leave the house, are treated like possessions .... and on and on and on .... And they are complicit in this. And we Westerners are behaving badly??? And btw, it's not anti American to suggest that American women have less of a problem letting others pay for everything, it's true. It's a cultural difference, and I've noticed on here that when there is a discussion about holiday romances, and 'who pays for what' it is invariably Americans who remark 'if he doesn't pay for everything I'd be out of there.' I don't think Europeans think quite the same way, we can buy a guy a coffee without feeling slighted I think. If egyptian guys start feeling insecure about this, well maybe they'd better stay away from foreigners. It's not a criticism, just culture stuff.
Ignorance on both parts In regards to 1st paragraph - I was in Egypt a few years ago and the women upstairs was being beaten to a pulp Everyone that heard it knew wat was happening. I begged the ppl i was with to intervene or at least call the police, only to be told the police wont do anything its a domestic issue It just appears that domestic abuse is tolerated in egypt Posts: 88 | From: Uk | Registered: Apr 2010
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Actually I have found that many people here really despise men who beat their wives. But paradoxically, probably, [I'm 'assuming here, NB Metinoot]due to a kind of nationalistic embarrassment, they have tended to make light of this issue when I mention it. I saw a man beating his teenaged daughter in the street not too long ago, dragged her along the ground by her hair. Luckily just about every man in the vicinity pounced on him, but strangely, I felt that it was doing it publicly that was what was haram.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I live in a country where women are quite frankly considered second class citizens, virtually sold off into marriage by their families in the name of 'security', many are beaten, by fathers, brothers, husbands, they have to ask permission to leave the house, are treated like possessions .... and on and on and on .... And they are complicit in this. And we Westerners are behaving badly??? And btw, it's not anti American to suggest that American women have less of a problem letting others pay for everything, it's true. It's a cultural difference, and I've noticed on here that when there is a discussion about holiday romances, and 'who pays for what' it is invariably Americans who remark 'if he doesn't pay for everything I'd be out of there.' I don't think Europeans think quite the same way, we can buy a guy a coffee without feeling slighted I think. If egyptian guys start feeling insecure about this, well maybe they'd better stay away from foreigners. It's not a criticism, just culture stuff.
Are you talking about Egypt or UK?
Facts:
Statistics: Domestic Violence
Incidence and prevalence of domestic violence: General
• Domestic violence accounts for between 16% and one quarter of all recorded violent crime. (Home Office, 2004; Dodd et al., 2004; BCS, 1998; Dobash and Dobash, 1980)
• One incident is reported to the police every minute. (Stanko, 2000)
• 45% women and 26% men had experienced at least one incident of inter-personal violence in their lifetimes. (Walby and Allen, 2004) ) – however when there were more than 4 incidents (i.e. ongoing domestic or sexual abuse) 89% of victims were women.
• In any one year, there are 13 million separate incidents of physical violence or threats of violence against women from partners or former partners. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
• Women are much more likely than men to be the victim of multiple incidents of abuse, and of sexual violence: 32% of women who had ever experienced domestic violence did so four or five (or more) times, compared with 11% of the (smaller number) of men who had ever experienced domestic violence; and women constituted 89% of all those who had experienced 4 or more incidents of domestic violence. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
• Women are more likely than men to have experienced all types of intimate violence (partner abuse, family abuse, sexual assault and stalking) since the ages of 16. And nearly half the woman who had experienced intimate violence of any kind, were likely to have been victims of more than one kind of intimate abuse. (Coleman et al., 2007)
• 54% of UK rapes are committed by a woman’s current or former partner. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
• On average 2 women a week are killed by a male partner or former partner: this constitutes around one-third of all female homicide victims. (Povey, (ed.), 2004, 2005; Home Office, 1999; Department of Health, 2005.)
posted
I just had to look at the statistics again. I never knew the UK was so violent for women. Is it correct that nearly half of all UK women have been physically abused at least once in their lifetime?
Is it a cultural thing? Where does all this hate and violence come from?
I think Egypt is safer than the UK if the statistics above are correct. There's no excuse for domestic abuse, but what's interesting is I thought the UK was civilized in this regard. I honestly did not know such a huge number of women are abused.
UK men are just as barbaric as the Egyptian men who beat their women. Perhaps they should be taught to respect women from an early age. I don't know don't specialize in this kind of conduct. I'm still in shock at the stats I just read.
Making matters worse:
Around 21% of girls and 11% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse. 23% of women and 3% of men experience sexual assault as an adult. 5% of women and 0.4% of men experience rape. (Cross Government Action Plan on Sexual Violence and Abuse
* Is this a civilized society? Where so many children and adults are sexually abused. We're talking about millions based on those percentages.
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Egypt is much safer than UK Exiiled, in lots of ways, must be all that bacon they eat
There are umpteen women's refuges in UK for abused women, the difference is the help for them is there in UK, it's not in Egypt and seeking help is not encouraged in Egypt. It's also not really that long ago that UK police wouldn't come out for domestic violence either, they wouldn't intervene if a man was beating crap out of his wife.
Social Services are up to the hilt with dealing with abused and neglected kids too, although sadly some do slip through the net and we see on the news they have been killed.
I think one huge difference between UK and Egypt in your statistics is that UK has statistics of these kinds of things and Egypt doesn't, or not up to date as most crimes like this are not even reported.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Okaaaayyy, explains why Brit money goes into Egypt and doesn't go out of Egypt.
I know it wasn't meant as a compliment but I would take that as one, a big one. Yes Brit money goes into our host country rather than sponging off it.
One thing I do know very well about Egyptian hospitality is that they will do all they can to make a guest happy, even if they are sharing all the food they have for a month with you in one meal or borrowing money to live and feed you, and you wont have a clue about it.
I am fortunate enough to live in a poorer area and know much poorer people than your NDP relatives and I don't know any Brit that would say with pride the things you have said here about you paying nothing towards your trip, including your air fare and personal shopping, I would be ashamed, only people like that I know are the low life scroungers that could peel an orange in their pockets back home. I suppose though when the in laws have made so much money by stealing from their own people it's normal for that money to be going out of Egypt in any way it can.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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You are right Ayisha about DV stats; there is just so much here that goes undreported and therefore undocumented.
In the UK DV can be broken down into physical and mental abuse, if those kind of stats were available and up to date here I think folk would be as equally shocked.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I think one huge difference between UK and Egypt in your statistics is that UK has statistics of these kinds of things and Egypt doesn't, or not up to date as most crimes like this are not even reported.
I know of at least one study, but it's more than ten years old and I'm not sure how reliable it is.
Woman Battering
The dominance of men over women is accepted to varying degrees among Egyptians of both genders. For example, the 1995 Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey found that a significant number of women, especially among lower and middle income women and those residing in rural areas, believed that wife beating was justified under certain circumstances.
Another study - carried out between January and March 1997 on a sample of 100 women aged between 14 and 65 years old (married or having been married) from Manshier Nasser, an informal settlement located ten minutes from the city of Cairo - reveals that 30% of the women questioned admitted to being subjected to domestic violence on a daily basis, 34% on a weekly basis, 15% on a monthly basis and 21% occasionally.
For 75% of these women, the main reason for this domestic violence was found to be sexual. Women are beaten, raped or abused for having refused to have sex with their husbands. Other reasons cited were spending (65%), visiting (32%), housework (25%), religion (8%), jealousy (6%) and disobedience (5%).
Sixteen percent of the women suffered injuries necessitating hospitalisation, such as broken arms, broken ribs, internal bleeding and wounds in the head or the arms requiring stitches, while 9% of them attempted to commit suicide.
Following this violence, most of them (53%) suffered in silence; 13% went to the police, although all of them subsequently withdrew the charges, the objective being only “to teach the husband a lesson”, not really wanting to cause him any harm.
Only 6% of these women demanded a divorce. Of the remainder, 26% called their neighbours; 25% tried to leave their homes at least once; 23% got help from family members (either their own or their spouse’s), while 15% responded to the violence. The fact that 87% of these women did not mention the violence to the police is due to embarrassment (65%), for the children’s sake (32%), fears for their husband (19%), fear of their husband (13%), and fear of their own families (7%).25 Four percent felt that it was a waste of time, while 11% cited other reasons.
The researcher specified that although this study is not representative of Egyptian society as a whole, she feels that “the instances of violence even among different social classes within Egyptian society is widespread.” ( … )
Marital Rape
In Egypt, a husband who forces his wife to have sexual intercourse is not considered by the law to have committed a criminal offence, “because the woman is legally obliged due to the marriage contract to obey her husband and to follow him to his bed each time he asks her, and she can only refuse for a legally valid reason.”
A study conducted by the New Women Research Centre and El-Nadim Centre has found that 93% of the women in the sample considered intercourse under such conditions as rape. However, 46% of the men in the sample said that they were entitled to force their wives to have intercourse.
posted
Would like to point out that, yes, abusive men are worldwide but, I imagine, it is a damned site easier for a woman in the UK to walk out on all that when she gets in the right mindset than it would be for an Egyptian wife who is utterly reliant. This is how I look at it - these woman beaters have, lets say, four relationships and are abusive in each one, that's four women that count as a statistic. Whereas if you've got four women who are married for life who have been battered, that means you have not just one bad egg, but four.
Meh, makes sense to me.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Around 21% of girls and 11% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse. 23% of women and 3% of men experience sexual assault as an adult. 5% of women and 0.4% of men experience rape.
Define sexual abuse? It doesn't. It doesn't say around 21% of girls have experienced sexual abuse by an adult, it says some form. Even though, I'm sorry, I don't buy that figure for a second. This would be way more believable for me:
but even though it's still "some form" - not well defined at all. As Mo stated earlier in this post, she thought someone had copped a feel on a bus then later realised there was no conceivable way they could have. Does this constitute sexual abuse?
I object to the 'civilised society' bit Exiiled. Kinda offensive.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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Hopefully with Egypt's transition from a dictatorship to democracy we will see accurate stats. There is an Arab country precedent in terms of recording stats and enacting a domestic abuse law. However I truly believe that Egypt is no where near the UK in terms of violence against women and children. Given the shocking numbers UK police attest that the reports are but a fragment of actual domestic violence incidents. I read that the UK was “The Violent Capital of Europe” and even more violent than the US per capita. (1) We can hypothesize, but my opinion is that Egyptians are much more civilized than many western nations when it comes to dealing with women and children. UK to Egypt comparison is given as the UK is clearly plagued with domestic and child abuse. Sure there are laws to protect women and refugee centers, counseling, etc but it doesn't dismiss the fact that UK society has some serious issues with domestic violence against women, and children abuse.
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Exiiled: [qb] I object to the 'civilised society' bit Exiiled. Kinda offensive.
Try not to take it personally. Doing so would hinder dialogue. My point is very simple, Egypt as bad as it is, is much better in the "civizlized" department than most other countries, including the UK.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Actually, it wasn't me said I got groped on the bus [Shanta?] just for metinoot's records. I did have a vile experience last summer, with a taxi driver! I was astonished by my response. I'd always assumed my famed rapier wit would take over and wither the offender etc. Or worst case scenario I'd be frozen with terror. But amazingly for me, [I am capable of sphinx like calm usually] I felt a real murderous rage, I think I could have killed the guy if I'd had a weapon. Just beat him around his stoopid head in the end.More shocked by myself than that twerp. But many years ago I've been physically hurt by a man, so maybe that violence was just lurking there from that time.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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And this was due to a lack of referrals, meaning it wasn't being used enough, meaning there was actually excess support out there for those who sought it.
The charities aren't going to report glowing affirmations that everythings hunky dory, are they? Would you donate to Red Cross if they told you "nope - everythings fine today"?
It does go on and there is support out there. The problem is some women just won't leave, but once they're brave enough, it's there. The council spend £500,000 a year in my area alone. Then there are numourous charities too.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Actually, it wasn't me said I got groped on the bus [Shanta?]
ooh sorry, my mistake
Exiiled, I do take it a little personally, I guess This is my home country and my peeps. We're not nearly the bunch of heathens a lot of Egyptians have us pegged as and you're doing nothing to help the PR campaign. Yeah, you have the drunks stumbling out of the bars and vomitting in some spots, but that aint universal. I've run out of petrol (numerous times ) and never made it to the garage on foot without a stranger helping me out. And there were no puppies or sweeties involved Really, we ain't all bad.
But again, I live in the sticks.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Inevitably in a country such as Egypt, where violence toward women is acknowledged, if not condoned by everyone, it will be years and years before the real stats are known. And would be hairaising I bet. I've seen women beaten in the streets, in nice cars, and have listened to discussions about the religious rules regarding 'chastising one's wife'.Cute. You don't have to live in Cairo to be in denial. None of these women are going to talk outside a hospital, divorce court, or their father's house. Shocking statistics in Western countries, [Exiiled, glad to know it doesn't happen in the USA] but years of probing research goes into these stats, European women are no longer ashamed to admit to having been victims. I agree that in many ways, Egypt is much safer than most western countries, certainly in terms of street crime etc, but as a woman I would feel vulnerable in a society that doesn't respect women enough to offer protection or redress in their own homes.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I'd always thought alcohol tended to be a big factor with many wife beaters but this does make you think. Maybe it's just used as an excuse??
Probably more about self-esteem and the alcholism is just a symptom of the problem.
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posted
Alcohol, [like a social climate that tacitly condones this stuff,] is a disinhibitor.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Actually, it wasn't me said I got groped on the bus [Shanta?]
ooh sorry, my mistake
Exiiled, I do take it a little personally, I guess This is my home country and my peeps. We're not nearly the bunch of heathens a lot of Egyptians have us pegged as and you're doing nothing to help the PR campaign. Yeah, you have the drunks stumbling out of the bars and vomitting in some spots, but that aint universal. I've run out of petrol (numerous times ) and never made it to the garage on foot without a stranger helping me out. And there were no puppies or sweeties involved Really, we ain't all bad.
But again, I live in the sticks.
I blame the Pakis, Niggas, Sand Niggers, Eastern European Hos, Russian Mafia, the Sikhs and Indians for ruining the UK!
Was really shocked by the UK stats. Like really shocked and began to think what could be the reason for the upsurge in violence in the UK. The UK people I meet couldn't be happier to leave the UK, these are mostly dudes, they complain about everything from British women to the goverment. The comment about Pakis, etc, that's they're line too, as they basically say leave it (UK) to them – I'm assuming the Pakis, British women and government. Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Alcohol is used as an excuse, there is DV and sexual harrassment and abuse daily in Egypt and I do recall someone once telling ES folk that no Egyptian in Egypt drinks
Whatever the reason (of which I know there are many), I hope that Egypt begins to help vulnerable and at risk people. Men as well as women...
I like living outside of the UK as I don't feel like Big Brother is up my ass daily anymore
I have had things stolen in Egypt like I have in the UK and I have had people tossing off in front of me here like I have in the UK. If this is a competition to see which country is better than the other in terms of theft and sexual botherings on the street then I see it to be a futile debate!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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posted
One in every four women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime. (Tjaden, Patricia & Thoennes, Nancy. National Institute of Justice and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, “Extent, Nature and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey,
One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States. (Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1991
get off your high horse Exiiled.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: One in every four women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime. (Tjaden, Patricia & Thoennes, Nancy. National Institute of Justice and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, “Extent, Nature and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey,
One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States. (Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1991
get off your high horse Exiiled.
Hey I'm not on a horse at all. I'm down to earth walking about in my ship-ship. Egypt is safer than the US too, and probably safer for women anc children the most western nations.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States.
wow you would have thought she'd have left him by now but every 15 secs I don't suppose she's had chance to run really Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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And the whole "imprinting" thing with baby ducks following a match box around thinking it was their mum.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Everyone that heard it knew wat was happening. I begged the ppl i was with to intervene or at least call the police, only to be told the police wont do anything its a domestic issue ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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) and never made it to the garage on foot without a stranger helping me out. And there were no puppies or sweeties involved ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
wow you would have thought she'd have left him by now but every 15 secs I don't suppose she's had chance to run really 
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