posted
I would add that it did occur here in the UK and the culprit was half British. Loons come from here and equally they come from elsewhere. And, VW, he came from a good Catholic family
Its amazing really. Once you do leave you think crikey moses, what was all that about? It's getting your head around the thought of leaving that's the hard part.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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Ok, so far we have it 3 for B and 1 for neither. Given that 2 voters live there and the other a frequent visitor, we can conclude that Egyptians are tolerant.
So what's the problem? Are we to step on the very society that is kind, gracious, loving even if they have a double standard problem. Egyptians are wonderful people, how many times in my life I wished more people were like Egyptians, even with all their faults. Yes the “Khaly” comment before paying is annoying. Sure the over ass-kissing is annoying. Yes the pettiness is annoying. Yes the trying to cheat a few L.E here and there is annoying (probably much for more noobs). But with all these shortfalls Egyptians are a kind people.
I also know what irked women most in this thread was the fact that they hate being deemed loose by Egyptian society. And that's the root of the problem in this thread – being deemed loose.
Yes it's a double standard because some Egyptian women date, but yet western women in general are deemed loose. What are you going to do? You can let it eat you or you can accept this perception and live your life. You're not going to change 80 million minds, most of whom are very simple minded people. Especially with the perception that European women flock to Egyptian resorts to get laid.
So chill. There are good aspects to Egypt and there are very frustrating aspects as well. Who cares what people think. And it's true the more people in your community know you the more loose perception whithers, but who should care anyway, right.
Now as for the domestic violence issue. I think all societies live in glass houses in this respect, all should be ashamed, and while Egypt doesn't have the stats yet, the western world sure does and they are very ugly. When Egypt starts registering stats, I won't be surprised if they are significant, but they certainly won't dismiss the ugly stats I've been reading past day or so. Just my 2 cents.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Domestic violence is not restricted to Muslims, British, or Catholics. It happens everywhere.
The point is that a British women is far more likely to go to the police to report her abuser, while a Muslim woman will rarely go to the police to report her abuser because she knows the police will often take the side of her abuser. That doesn't mean that domestic violence is more prevalant in the UK than it is in Egypt as exile implies.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Domestic violence is not restricted to Muslims, British, or Catholics. It happens everywhere.
The point is that a British women is far more likely to go to the police to report her abuser, while a Muslim woman will rarely go to the police to report her abuser because she knows the police will often take the side of her abuser. That doesn't mean that domestic violence is more prevalant in the UK than it is in Egypt as exile implies.
I have stats to back up the fact that the UK has a serious domestic violence issue. Possibly the most in all of Europe.
You actually implied that UK muslims were the reason.
So stop with "exile implies." I don't imply I state!
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Another reason why a Muslim woman is less likely to complain about abuse:
When some women complained of abuse to Muhammad, he refers to them as "not the best among you".
Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
And in Sahih Muslim 4.2127: Aisha recalls a time Muhammad "struck me on the chest which caused me pain".
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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vw, I agree with what you're saying to some extent. I don't think an Egyptian woman is as likely to go to the police as a British woman, but I don't agree it's solely for the reason you've cited. It seems a little more complicated than that. If you're going to go to the police it naturally follows you're going to leave and presumably you have to have somewhere to go to? I.e. there needs to be a support system/family or that woman has to be self sufficient. That's how it seems to me but I'm not going to sit here and pretend to be an expert.
I also agree that a lot of cases of abuse go unreported here, but you do get the odd psycho who'll think nothing of calling them out over nothing. I have a colleague - a decent guy too - whose ex went dolally tap at him smacking the crap out of him. He pushed her off him, she rang the cops. This happened twice in a week.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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"I have stats to back up the fact that the UK has a serious domestic violence issue. Possibly the most in all of Europe."
Muslim women do not easily report domestic violence so there are no statistics available on the actual reality of domestic violence in Muslim countries. If you can not provide similar studies and stats from Muslim countries, you can NOT legitimately come to any conclusions other than 'human abuse of human occurs'. The degree to which it happens can not be determined to be greater or lesser without comparative statistics.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Domestic violence is not restricted to Muslims, British, or Catholics. It happens everywhere.
The point is that a British women is far more likely to go to the police to report her abuser, while a Muslim woman will rarely go to the police to report her abuser because she knows the police will often take the side of her abuser. That doesn't mean that domestic violence is more prevalant in the UK than it is in Egypt as exile implies.
So what about the British Muslim women? You're comparing apples to nuts. Anything and anyway to get in your hatred for Islam in any way you can, you're obsessed.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Another reason why a Muslim woman is less likely to complain about abuse:
When some women complained of abuse to Muhammad, he refers to them as "not the best among you".
Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
And in Sahih Muslim 4.2127: Aisha recalls a time Muhammad "struck me on the chest which caused me pain".
More opinions How many Egyptian women would even read this hadith, or even hear it? More than half of them can't even read, and this is true for both Muslims and Christians.
Egyptians aren't very hadith heavy nor are thet religious heavy. They are more into the basics.
You're making assumptions, how about some facts.
If I'm desperate could I do the same and look up somewhere as to why most UK women neglect to report domestic abuse?
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Seriously, if you were British the BNP would just love you.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "I have stats to back up the fact that the UK has a serious domestic violence issue. Possibly the most in all of Europe."
Muslim women do not easily report domestic violence so there are no statistics available on the actual reality of domestic violence in Muslim countries. If you can not provide similar studies and stats from Muslim countries, you can NOT legitimately come to any conclusions other than 'human abuse of human occurs'. The degree to which it happens can not be determined to be greater or lesser without comparative statistics.
It's more than appropriate. Countries that have genuine domestic violence stats can and are ranked accordingly. There will be a day when more nations will register and release their own stats. The excuse that Egyptian women both Muslim and Christan don't report their crimes should get the UK off the hook for domestic violence is nonsense. Most UK domestic violence incidents in the UK go unreported. Egyptian women both Muslim and Christan are not the only ones who are intimidated or afraid to report domestic abuse.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Do you honestly think Egyptians would be as tolerant as the British are if their country were flooded with millions of Sudanese, Somalians etc? immigrants of all faiths?
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Doesn't Egypt have immigrants now? I thought they had a fair few of them. Take a look around. Or is it just the black ones we should take umbridge at?
Don't get that comment.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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What they have now is rich tourists. I'd like to see how they treat people whom they consider "inferior" to judge if they are tolerant or not. For example I'd like to see how they treat the Sudanese, Nigerians etc.
If a British person treated a Dutch person with respect, but treated a Pakistani person like a dirt, would you think that person is racist or tolerant?
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "Doesn't Egypt have immigrants now?"
What they have now is rich tourists. I'd like to see how they treat people whom they consider "inferior" to judge if they are tolerant or not. For example I'd like to see how they treat the Sudanese, Nigerians etc.
If a British person treated a Dutch person with respect, yet treated a Pakistani person as a dirt, would you think that person is racist or tolerant?
quote: What they have now is rich tourists.
LOL
Egypt is the one of the cheapest destinations in the world for sun-worshippers living in Europe.
It's flooded with Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans.
You don't know jack about Egypt.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Yes Monkey, there are a lot of immigrants. I know a whole community of Ghanians who were deported not so long ago.
And you don't need to be rich to be a tourist in Egypt. You can be an average income, working class westerner and have 2 weeks in the sun for a very cheap price. That is why the Red Sea is so popular.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "Doesn't Egypt have immigrants now?"
What they have now is rich tourists. I'd like to see how they treat people whom they consider "inferior" to judge if they are tolerant or not. For example I'd like to see how they treat the Sudanese, Nigerians etc.
If a British person treated a Dutch person with respect, but treated a Pakistani person like a dirt, would you think that person is racist or tolerant?
So you think you can judge all Egyptians as racists and all Westerners as being whiter than white so far as racial tolerance is concerned? Pardon the pun but come to mention it, a lot of Brits aren't white. I don't look at Linford Christie as being any less British than me. Feck, how many gold medals have I ever brought home?
So Egypt has no migrant workers? I don't mean sun worshipers, I mean economic migrants.
vw, do you actually know any Egyptians personally? I think it would give you a better perspective to actually talk to one to see how racially intollerant they are (or not, as the case may be) rather than relying on what you see on websites. My chap's auntie is married to a black guy
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Egypt is the one of the cheapest destinations in the world for sun-worshippers living in Europe.
It's flooded with Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans.
Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans are just that: Europeans. No matter how poor you are in Egypt you are considered rich just because you are European.
But non Europeans and especially black Africans are not treated well. You said that poor African immigrants are considered a drain on Egyptian society and Egyptians resent them. Yet in the same breath you say they are tolerant because they treat Europeans well. Would you say the same if a British person treated a Dutch or a Swedish person well, but viewed Egyptians or Pakistans as a drain on society? treated them with comtempt? Why is the first considered tolerant and the other racist? A wise man said a good measure of a person is not how they treat their equals, but how they treat their "inferiors".
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Egypt is the one of the cheapest destinations in the world for sun-worshippers living in Europe.
It's flooded with Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans.
Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans are just that: Europeans. No matter how poor you are in Egypt you are considered rich just because you are European.
But non Europeans and especially black Africans are not treated well. You said that poor African immigrants are considered a drain on Egyptian society and Egyptians resent them. Yet in the same breath you say they are tolerant because they treat Europeans well. Would you say the same if a British person treated a Dutch or a Swedish person well, but viewed Egyptians or Pakistans as a drain on society? treated them with comtempt? Why is the fisrt considered tolerant and the other racist? I have seen Egyptians treat Sudanese really bad, call them apes and monkeys, treat them really with contempt. A wise man said a good measure of a person is not how they treat their equals, but how they treat their "inferiors".
quote: Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans are just that: Europeans. No matter how poor you are in Egypt you are considered rich just because you are European.
Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Not True for Egypt. There is a huge difference between a Brit and someone from Ukraine or Eastern Europe. You actually have to live or know Egyptians to understand this. It might be 2011 but East Europeans are just.
Not on UK/FR level that's for sure. The tour operators know this and so do the the people in Egypt. Speak to tour opertaors if you know any and they will give you the rundown.It's just different mentalities, a Russian can't be compared to a Brit for example.
Have you ever visited Egypt?
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
I have met Egyptians and I have been to Egypt. I have met good and bad Egyptians. What I have seen is that Egyptians are more bigoted as a people than the British are. People in third world countries tend to be more bigoted, that's understandable, and has a lot to do with lack of education, it doesn't mean they are bad people or that they are worse than any other people.
posted
I don't even like being called British let alone European, I much prefer English, seeing as I was born in England.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I also know what irked women most in this thread was the fact that they hate being deemed loose by Egyptian society. And that's the root of the problem in this thread – being deemed loose.
Yes it's a double standard because some Egyptian women date, but yet western women in general are deemed loose. What are you going to do? You can let it eat you or you can accept this perception and live your life. You're not going to change 80 million minds, most of whom are very simple minded people. Especially with the perception that European women flock to Egyptian resorts to get laid.
The problem is alot of western women go to Egypt to get their pussies petted by the local lads.
Or in some cases their hands petted, while gazing into the eyes of a local lad as he whispers sweet nothings.
Here's a great solution, don't flirt, don't get your pussy petted in Egypt. Get your funk on back in your own nation. WHile in Egypt don't partake in the yummy brown men.
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Russians are not considered European in anyones eyes but yours it seems. Do you know where Europe is and where Russia is?
quote:Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
That would be every country outside Egypt then. Egyptians are an incredibly proud nation of people, everything and everywhere has a flag, and not just since the revolution either. On TV it's all 'biladi biladi' 'Masry ya omi' and same again not only since the revolution. To an Egyptian no one on earth matches them, and they treat all with respect no matter where they come from or how poor they are.
On the other side of the coin, those in Cairo do look down on those in Upper Egypt and those on the East Bank of Luxor look down on those on the West Bank of Luxor. It all depends on how you look at it but the poorest farmer on the west bank would share his food with a Russian, European, Ghanaian, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc no matter what the colour, religion or financial means.
I don't think you've ever spent any time in Egypt at all.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I also know what irked women most in this thread was the fact that they hate being deemed loose by Egyptian society. And that's the root of the problem in this thread – being deemed loose.
Yes it's a double standard because some Egyptian women date, but yet western women in general are deemed loose. What are you going to do? You can let it eat you or you can accept this perception and live your life. You're not going to change 80 million minds, most of whom are very simple minded people. Especially with the perception that European women flock to Egyptian resorts to get laid.
The problem is alot of western women go to Egypt to get their pussies petted by the local lads.
Or in some cases their hands petted, while gazing into the eyes of a local lad as he whispers sweet nothings.
Here's a great solution, don't flirt, don't get your pussy petted in Egypt. Get your funk on back in your own nation. WHile in Egypt don't partake in the yummy brown men.
Problem solved.
Thats right sono, stay home and do it online while your hubby's asleep, right?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
I posted something about racism in Egypt and the Egyptian khawaga complex on this thread last night. It's worth a read.
Btw, long live Russia!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Thats right sono, stay home and do it online while your hubby's asleep, right?
Lol she always writes that dirty before sunrise. Honestly I think she wouldn't mind at all to get her you know what petted by a yummy brown man (wow I never thought I would be that racist as I usually don't like to talk about skin color ) if she would just have the money to travel. Unfortunately the scruffy looking homeless guy under the bridge not far from her hut has to fulfill her needs for the timebeing. That's the truth, that's how Sono gets her funk on.
Me further thinks she's jealous because other women do get laid while on holidays while she can't afford even one!!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Thats right sono, stay home and do it online while your hubby's asleep, right?
Lol she always writes that dirty before sunrise. Honestly I think she wouldn't mind at all to get her you know what petted by a yummy brown man (wow I never thought I would be that racist as I usually don't like to talk about skin color ) if she would just have the money to travel. Unfortunately the scruffy looking homeless guy under the bridge not far from her hut has to fulfill her needs for the timebeing. That's the truth, that's how Sono gets her funk on.
Me further thinks she's jealous because other women do get laid while on holidays while she can't afford even one!!!
And you don't get laid for all of 2007, and well over half your marriage because he's off killing civilians some of which are those yummy brown boys.
Yes I am awake no work tomorrow.
And I can afford a vacation unlike you who is living off a military retirement for a family of four.
as for "yummy brown boy" reference it came from Debbie an old timer who no longer posts, and it was used by many sex tourists who posted at that time.
At least I didn't grow up with the term "black labor" meaning "illegal labor". And you are racist tigerweed very racist. And if you'd like I'll go collect your racist posts and repost them every time you claim not to be racist.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party.
I guess whether your friends genuinely like you is something only you can tell. Personally, I do trust my Egyptian friends, and I am sure their affection is genuine. But I first thought your post was more related to the often heard statement that *all* Egyptians are super-friendly and love foreigners. That, I feel, is not necessarily true, which makes it a bit difficult for us to know how people we encounter in our daily lifes really feel about us.
I think both statements – that Egyptians love foreigners, and that they don't like us or look down on us – contain some truth, even if that sounds contradictory at first. But then it's the same with the 3odet el khawaga, it's a strange and contradictory mixture of admiration and jealousy with a hint of contempt thrown in.
Hope I'm making some sort of sense here, still having my second coffee and not really able to put my thoughts into proper sentences.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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And I can afford a vacation unlike you who is living off a military retirement for a family of four.
No you can't, you have clearly stated that your ex yummy brown boy and his family pay all your costs, including personal shopping and flights.
The reference to online while hubby is asleep was to your cyber sessions which gave rise to the disgusting flap pics, at which time you were married. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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God, I sound paranoid even to myself. I'm not! Really. I do trust my Egyptian friends, and yes, the affection is genuine, but .... having been badly let down recently .... I would be cautious about relying too much on the depth of that feeling. I think if I had a real problem, I wouldn't want to test that friendship. I have seen instances where fellow expats have turned for help to people who they had known for years, ['you are my sister/brother, I would do anything for you'] and were dismayed to find that their problems were either ignored, or actually exploited. In everyday commercial dealings, it is a policy to get everything in writing, signed, witnessed, stamped etc. Even amongst family members apparently. Trust is not common ["Trust in God, but tie up your camel"] It really is a cultural thing.Tribal. It's not about racism, but I suspect that maybe, as some people on here have encountered 'Love-Lite' there is a form of 'Friendship-Lite'. Absolutely genuine and sincere from the point of view of the Egyptian friend, but with cultural limitations that don't surface unless the 'rains come'.
Anyway, my crazy neighbours [mostly Bedu]are throwing a huuuge party tonight [they've been practising all week! Bands and gunfire.] so maybe if I can get past the language barrier, I will have a totally different point of view tomorrow.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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aahh bands and gunfire party. Beware, that could be turned into 'huge 4 hour battle with gunshots and molotov cocktails' as it apparently did here in Luxor recently when 2 families were having the usual barney about their kids mixing (male and female) and in another area fireworks were going of, the rumour mongers turned into a huge war with gunshots and molotov cocktails.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Oh Ayisha, I know! There really is a strong possiblity of range war breaking out [amongst these lifelong tribal friends HA] thank goodness I can't get drunk. I was wondering about what to wear, maybe body armour; this is the first time I've been to one of these events alone, and at the last Bedouin [wedding] party I attended a fight broke out. Women, wielding BONES!! And before anyone says anything about the social level of these guys, forget it. I'm the poor relation around here.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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