posted
Hi folks I’ve just returned from a couple of weeks visit to Egypt, the first in a year’s time (May 2010). I spent it all in Alex except for half a day in Cairo (which I vehemently hate!). Here’s my impressions
1- If you didn’t know there was a revolution, you wouldn’t have noticed. Everything in everyday life is exactly the same, people still cut you off in traffic, still rude and selfish, etc. The only exception to the previous times is the low profile of the police. Physically the most dramatic thing for me was the disappearance of the city hall (mabna el-mohfza) in Fouad street. I was really sad to see it turn into a pile of rubble, especially that this wasn't necessary. I can understand the police stations being burnt and vandalised, but the city hall, no.
2- People keep telling you about the complete lack of security during the revolution and how neighbourhood watch groups were formed to protect the neighbourhoods. But when you ask them if they or anybody they know was attacked, the answer in the majority of cases is No. The exception was with someone I know who lives behind the police station in Gleem, she said when the detainees broke out (or were released), they ransacked a nearby shop. One taxi driver told me that girls were abducted, but again, no positive evidence, mainly hearsay. I’m not saying these things didn’t happen, but it seems to me that they were grossly exaggerated. I’m talking about Alex, don’t know about other cities. Another guy living in an under-privileged area said that they were told people from a nearby area were coming to attack them, but this didn’t happen. Later they found out that those other people were told that the first group was coming to attack them!!!
3- It is my impression that most ordinary people were not in favour of the last “millioneya”. I’m judging from conversations with taxi drivers, tradesmen (plumber, electrician) who came to fix stuff at home, people in the construction industry, etc. and also business owners. There’s a feeling that people had enough and want to move forward. I do share this feeling myself. I’m not against the goals of the demos but the means.
I’ll tell you a bit more later on Bye for now
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Thanks for the update. What about crime? Did you notice the crime wave that is taking over all of Egypt. Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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ahh the crime, I spoke to 2 tourists today, I said it's great that the revolution didn't put them off, they said they heard all sorts but only difference they noticed since last time they came was they practically have the hotel to themselves and couldn't believe the fantastic deal they got
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Also a thanks for the update. Is the curfew still in force in Alex. Have just booked a flight to come back and should be enough time to get up to Alex from Cairo but would like to know in case there are any delays.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: ..., they said they heard all sorts but only difference they noticed since last time they came was .......
yep, that's exactly my point, a lot of people "heard" this and that, but nobody I met actually saw or experienced something. I suppose this answers Exiiled's question As for Penny's, well again I "heard" that the curfew is still in place, from 2am to some other time, I think 6am. I arrived in Borg-el-Arab airport (from overseas) about 1:30 am, by the time we were on the road it was certainly past 2am but no one stopped us to ask for id or whatever, even inside the city (Alex).
BTW I like the new Borg airport, it's really nice. The old one was horrible, the cafeteria was like one in a microbus rank, and the airport had mosquittos. The new one is airconditioned and lovely landscaping outside, efficient systems and conveyor belts, and several expensive caffeteiras grrr I even asked who was the architect that designed it. They did tell me but I've forgotten now. Hmm, makes me wonder what was the point of asking in the first place! daft Ramses Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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4- Economics The general perception is that the economic situation is getting worse and will do so further in the near future. I’m not talking about statistics or economic indices, etc, but what the average person in the street perceives. Again this is tied with stability. People who earn their living on daily rather than monthly basis are suffering, e.g. tradesmen, taxi drivers, small vendors, etc. I’ve mentioned that before in a thread that was going on during the revolution.
Also business owners and professionals are suffering. I know someone who owns a factory in Borg-el-Arab, outside of Alex, the workers stormed into his office demanding a salary raise. He told them how can I do that when there hasn’t been much production because there haven’t been any orders recently. Another one owns a factory in 10th Ramadan city who went on a trip overseas soliciting orders and offering bargains, just to keep his factory working.
I also know someone who works in a consulting office that design factories. They had a foreign investor who had built phase 1 of a factory, and phase 2 was planned for summer but is put off for now without a new target date. I know several other examples. All those are people whom I know personally, some of whom I’ve met in my visit and others I heard their news from common acquaintances. In general, foreign investors are holding back till the situation becomes clear and we get some stability and hence accountability back.
Of course the new prime minister’s trip to the gulf begging for money and the recent loans from the IMF or G8 or whoever it was, are also adding to this perception. In fairness though, many (though not most) people feel it’ll get better eventually.
5- Politics, ah politics That’s a right royal mess!! You don’t know anymore who stands for what. You watch telly and you get the impression that the country is polarised but when you talk to the average Mo, you don’t feel much of that. It seems to me that the intelligentsia is detached from the masses. This manufactured arguments on discussion shows on TV about liberals vs Islamists (whoever or whatever those are!) doesn’t seem to echo in the street. In fact I doubt many people know the meaning of the word secularism.
My own stance is that we should minimise the interim transitional period, and I think most people would agree to that on the basis of restoring some form of stability. Now to do that, we should have parliamentary elections ASAP. Once we have those we can sit down calmly and formulate a new constitution. In my view this is the only fair and democratic way. Otherwise, how can you re-write the constitution by a committee selected by non-elected reps. This was acceptable for the amendment of a few articles of the constitution but not for re-writing the whole thing. In spite of that, we’ve seen all the bickering about the committee. If a committee is selected to write the constitution before the election, then who has the mandate to select it? Without an election, nobody does.
As for the fear of the ekhwan getting a majority vote in the new parliament, I don’t see why this should be the case. If everybody goes to vote then we’ll get whoever we vote for, and if this turns out to be ekhwan, then in such a case this would be the choice of the majority and we all have to abide by it, if we believe in democracy. We know the way to Tahrir now, so whoever doesn’t deliver, be it ekhwan or someone else, we’ll hold them accountable. If the Egyptians have dislodged Mubarak after 30 years, I don’t see why they can’t remove anyone else after five years (or whatever the term in office will be).
There’s more to say, but I’ve typed too much for now. Later alligator (if I get the time)
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: 4- Economics The general perception is that the economic situation is getting worse and will do so further in the near future. I’m not talking about statistics or economic indices, etc, but what the average person in the street perceives. Again this is tied with stability. People who earn their living on daily rather than monthly basis are suffering, e.g. tradesmen, taxi drivers, small vendors, etc. I’ve mentioned that before in a thread that was going on during the revolution.
Also business owners and professionals are suffering. I know someone who owns a factory in Borg-el-Arab, outside of Alex, the workers stormed into his office demanding a salary raise. He told them how can I do that when there hasn’t been much production because there haven’t been any orders recently. Another one owns a factory in 10th Ramadan city who went on a trip overseas soliciting orders and offering bargains, just to keep his factory working.
I also know someone who works in a consulting office that design factories. They had a foreign investor who had built phase 1 of a factory, and phase 2 was planned for summer but is put off for now without a new target date. I know several other examples. All those are people whom I know personally, some of whom I’ve met in my visit and others I heard their news from common acquaintances. In general, foreign investors are holding back till the situation becomes clear and we get some stability and hence accountability back.
Of course the new prime minister’s trip to the gulf begging for money and the recent loans from the IMF or G8 or whoever it was, are also adding to this perception. In fairness though, many (though not most) people feel it’ll get better eventually.
5- Politics, ah politics That’s a right royal mess!! You don’t know anymore who stands for what. You watch telly and you get the impression that the country is polarised but when you talk to the average Mo, you don’t feel much of that. It seems to me that the intelligentsia is detached from the masses. This manufactured arguments on discussion shows on TV about liberals vs Islamists (whoever or whatever those are!) doesn’t seem to echo in the street. In fact I doubt many people know the meaning of the word secularism.
My own stance is that we should minimise the interim transitional period, and I think most people would agree to that on the basis of restoring some form of stability. Now to do that, we should have parliamentary elections ASAP. Once we have those we can sit down calmly and formulate a new constitution. In my view this is the only fair and democratic way. Otherwise, how can you re-write the constitution by a committee selected by non-elected reps. This was acceptable for the amendment of a few articles of the constitution but not for re-writing the whole thing. In spite of that, we’ve seen all the bickering about the committee. If a committee is selected to write the constitution before the election, then who has the mandate to select it? Without an election, nobody does.
As for the fear of the ekhwan getting a majority vote in the new parliament, I don’t see why this should be the case. If everybody goes to vote then we’ll get whoever we vote for, and if this turns out to be ekhwan, then in such a case this would be the choice of the majority and we all have to abide by it, if we believe in democracy. We know the way to Tahrir now, so whoever doesn’t deliver, be it ekhwan or someone else, we’ll hold them accountable. If the Egyptians have dislodged Mubarak after 30 years, I don’t see why they can’t remove anyone else after five years (or whatever the term in office will be).
There’s more to say, but I’ve typed too much for now. Later alligator (if I get the time)
quote:As for the fear of the ekhwan getting a majority vote in the new parliament, I don’t see why this should be the case. If everybody goes to vote then we’ll get whoever we vote for, and if this turns out to be ekhwan, then in such a case this would be the choice of the majority and we all have to abide by it, if we believe in democracy. We know the way to Tahrir now, so whoever doesn’t deliver, be it ekhwan or someone else, we’ll hold them accountable. If the Egyptians have dislodged Mubarak after 30 years, I don’t see why they can’t remove anyone else after five years (or whatever the term in office will be).
quote:As for the fear of the ekhwan getting a majority vote in the new parliament, I don’t see why this should be the case. If everybody goes to vote then we’ll get whoever we vote for, and if this turns out to be ekhwan, then in such a case this would be the choice of the majority and we all have to abide by it, if we believe in democracy. We know the way to Tahrir now, so whoever doesn’t deliver, be it ekhwan or someone else, we’ll hold them accountable. If the Egyptians have dislodged Mubarak after 30 years, I don’t see why they can’t remove anyone else after five years (or whatever the term in office will be).
This is really a very positive mentality. Reading ES for so long, especially with fear mongering that is spewed around here by Tigerlilly and VW. I for one felt like I had to comfort people's fears. Or perceived fears. There are certainly less informed people in the world, just the type of people that TL and VW have the most influence on. But here is an Egyptian who says Egyptians want democracy so let the voting begin. And if they don't deliver then we know the god damn road to tahrir. I believe that. This despite the fact that MB can't achieve a majority in next election (100% certain, even with other Islamist coalition)
There's no need for fear-mongering.
Posts: 2275 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Topic: In Egypt, Islamist Salafist movement vies for political power in wake of revolution tigerlily_misr
Member Member # 3567
Rate Member posted 11 June, 2011 02:04 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Ernesto Londono, Published: June 10
ALEXANDRIA, Egypt — For years, the rugged Mediterranean shoreline here has been a favorite necking place for young Egyptian couples. But now menacing new messages have been spray-painted on the rocks.
“Would you find it all right for your sister?” one message says, addressing the men who bring girlfriends to the rocky area where waves break. “God sees you.” Other messages decry alcohol. One says simply, “Enough sins.”
The fresh scrawls are the work of Islamists who are emerging from the fringes of Egyptian society with zeal and swagger. Their graffiti and billboards calling for a more conservative Egypt have become pervasive here in recent months, part of a rapidly growing debate about what should emerge from a revolution that toppled an autocratic leader and unleashed long-subdued social and political forces.
“There is going to be a battle between two visions for Egypt,” said Abdel Moneim El-Shahat, a leader in Egypt’s fundamentalist Salafist movement, whose members spent long years in jail under President Hosni Mubarak.
With parliamentary elections scheduled for this fall, the Salafists are poised to emerge as a powerful political force in the contest, which could become an unofficial referendum on how piously the Arab world’s largest nation should be governed in the post-revolutionary era.
Salafists are loosely organized around the ideal that Islam ought to be restored to what they consider the pure, fundamental way the prophet Muhammad and his immediate descendants practiced it.
In Egypt, Salafist men shun alcohol and grow long beards. They insist that female relatives refrain from working outside the household and cover their faces with the garment known as the niqab. Unlike the Muslim Brotherhood, they have not actively participated in Egyptian politics and have not opened their political ranks to minorities, such as Coptic Christians.
Although less politically experienced than the better-known Brotherhood, Egypt’s Salafists could significantly alter the political landscape of a country that was run by a secular autocrat for three decades. Salafist leaders are forming political parties, tapping into the region’s burgeoning blogosphere and reintroducing themselves in communities where they had long been regarded as pariahs.
Abdallah al-Ashaal, a former Egyptian diplomat who is running for president as a liberal, said the Salafists will be able to rally a large base of supporters at the polls.
“They vote according to orders, not to convictions,” he said.
No one — not even budding Salafist politicians — is predicting a windfall on election day for the movement, which includes leaders who profess admiration for slain al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. But Shahat and other influential Salafists say they intend to play a key role in the drafting of a new constitution to ensure it reflects a strict interpretation of Islamic law.
Salafist leaders have not spelled out a clear political platform or said how far they think the state should go in ensuring that Islamic law is the anchor of morality, justice and governance in the new Egypt.
Senior Muslim Brotherhood politicians and Salafist leaders have demurred when asked recently whether they would seek to ban alcohol or force women to be veiled. Ashaal pointed out that sharia law prohibits alcohol consumption but that it “doesn’t give us a right to inspect people’s homes.” It also dictates that women wear veils, he said, but does not allow the government to compel them by force to do so.
Eye toward Saudi Arabia
Hosni Mubarak came to power in Egypt nearly 30 years ago. Here's a look at his tenure. .Saudi Arabia is the country that Egypt should try to most emulate in the future, said Ashaal and Mohammed Mursi, the leader of the Brotherhood’s new political party. They praised the ultraconservative brand of Islam, known as Wahhabism, that is strictly enforced in the kingdom.
Today’s leaders of Egypt’s Salafist movement came of age alongside Islamists from armed groups that carried out attacks against the government in the 1980s and 1990s, seeking to overthrow the government and establish an Islamic state. Salafist and Muslim Brotherhood leaders now claim no affiliation with armed organizations such as Islamic Jihad or al-Gamaa al-Islamiyya, and they vow that their groups have renounced violence.
Egyptian Islamists have long felt that Mubarak’s government, which was largely secular, did not reflect the nation’s religious tenor. The ousted leader kept the Muslim Brotherhood on a tight political leash, giving the group just enough breathing room to maintain the semblance of a viable opposition.
The regime was ruthless toward the Salafists, whose founding members include figures that inspired violent jihadists. Hundreds of Salafist leaders were detained in Mubarak’s Egypt for years under the country’s emergency law, which gives the state the right to imprison people indefinitely without charges. Most have been released in the aftermath of the 18-day uprising.
Shahat, a prominent Salafist scholar who was frequently detained and hassled by the former regime’s security forces, said Islamist politicians could get up to 40 percent of the seats in the new parliament. The Brotherhood, he said, probably will get most of those, but Salafists, he predicted, could secure up to 10 percent.
“Many of the leaders are now free, and they are introducing themselves to the media and society,” Shahat said. “They are introducing themselves to society in a peaceful way, reminding people we gave up violence even before the revolution.”
‘Why are people so afraid?’
Prominent among those is Mamdouh Ismail, a Cairo defense lawyer who was among the Islamists rounded up after the 1981 assassination of President Anwar Sadat. Ismail, who has represented numerous Islamist militants, was detained again in 2007 and questioned about alleged links to al-Qaeda. He has denied wrongdoing.
On a recent afternoon, as he held court in his spacious office in Cairo’s lawyer’s syndicate wearing a gray striped suit and a blue tie, Ismail looked far more like a budding politician than a militant. Bearded men sat on the couch on the opposite end of the office, drinking tea while waiting to speak to him. A colleague was using a camera to prepare Salafist videos; they featured declarations from women wearing niqabs.
Salafists were widely blamed for instigating a recent spate of clashes between Muslims and Christians that left more than a dozen people dead and hundreds wounded. Ismail said he is alarmed by what he called false rumors being spread through Cairo neighborhoods suggesting that Salafists have set women on fire for not covering up.
“Why are people so afraid?” he said. “Because it has become very clear since the revolution that there is a lot of interest on the street in Islamic movements and Islamic thinking, despite the best efforts by liberals.”
But as Salafists have assumed a higher profile in cities and villages around the country, some residents have become fearful. In the low-income Imbaba district of Cairo, a Muslim mob reportedly led by Salafists cried “Victory for Islam!” as they clashed with Coptic Christians and set a church on fire last month.
“The sense that your old neighbor would do this to you, that was an awful feeling,” Coptic priest Zusima al-Antouni said, speaking near St. Mina, the Coptic Orthodox church torched May 7. “The blame lies at the feet of the people who let the Salafists out of jail.”
Special correspondent Ingy Hassieb contributed to this report.
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