Three months ago, 22 year old medical student Najwa Khasmera Abdullah decided to have herself circumcised.
Female circumcision was banned in Egypt in 1998. As a result, many young women of Najwa's age did not recieve circumcision at the age they were normally have it, around 15 or so.
However, in the past few years, the ban started to lose its grip, due to pressure from religious leaders. " Uncircumcised women have strong lust and often commit adultery, just like western women. The government made a mistake by banning it. We Egyptians should not be pressured by the western countries. We need to keep our women chaste" a religious leader stated.
" A lot of my friends are getting it done. My sister and cousins too. We didn't get circumcised when younger because it was banned, but now I'm glad I'm finally circumcised" Najwa said.
Her claims were confirmed by Dr. Yasmina Shamir, who runs a circumcision clinic and also performed Najwa's circumcicion. " I circumcise more adult patients lately, sometimes 10 young women a day. Mostly of Najwa's age. "They didn't get circumcised when younger because of the ban. But when they want to get married, usually the men demands that the women must be circumcised before marriage."
Being a medical student, Najwa is completely aware of the female anatomy and the function of the clitoris, which is removed during circumcision " I think circumcision is good for women. I know the clitoris can bring pleasure, but it is also a great temptation for women. It's best to remove it. Women don't need their clitoris for marriage and having children anyway." She said
"I don't agree with girls being circumcised by untrained village midwife with unsterile razor. That's why I chose to have my circumcision done by a doctor" Najwa said while showing her preserved clitoris in a jar.
"Female circumcision is a very minor and safe surgery under modern medical supervision. The wound is even smaller than that of male circumcision" Dr. Shamir stated. She also stated that female circumcision procedure done by trained doctors has become increasingly affordable even by poor families. Some Islamic Foundation or Mosque even routinely provide free circumcision for the poor, both males and females.
Well, old habit die hard, people say. Looks like Egyptian women are not going to let themselves go wild like their western sisters.
posted
A letter from CIRCUMCISED British muslim nurse -------------------------------------------------
I am a 30 year old British born nurse. I met and married an Egyptian doctor several years ago, lived in Egypt for several years and converted to Islam and underwent female circumcision. I have no regrets. Firstly I want to dispel any myths about what it is. It is NOT infibulation - that's something which occurs only in Sub-Saharan Africa and is strictly forbidden by Islam. Where female circumcision is practiced (and that is in Muslim countries from North Africa, through the Middle East to the Far East) female circumcision can be described as either of two forms - partial circumcision, where part or all of the clitoris and inner labia are removed or full circumcision where the labia majora are also removed. The only stitches put in are to surture the cuts made during the circumcision - and definitely NOT for the purpose of narrowing the vaginal opening. Secondly, under Islam, all operations (including circumcisions!) must be carried out under medical conditions by qualified personel and using an anaesthetic where appropriate. There is no more reason for somebody in Egypt to go to a "back-street" circumciser than somebody in the West has cause to go to a "back-street" abortionist. Neither is there anything barbaric about female circumcision. The authorities in the West know perfectly well that STRICTLY SPEAKING IN MEDICAL TERMS, partial female circumcision is a more minor procedure than male circumcision. Where the cuts are made, there are fewer nerves or blood vessels cut than in male circumcision. Complications are almost non-existent. Even in the case of full circumcision complications are hardly greater than in male circumcision. This information is widely known in countries that practice female circumcision, but it is deliberately supressed by the West - whether you want to call it cultural imperialism, political correctness or just plain old bigotry against those of different beliefs or religion is up to you. Thirdly, the reasons for female circumcision are also deliberately misrepresented by the West. Female circumcision IS permitted under Islam and since the West has banned it, this is an attack on our religion. In the past female circumcision was considered optional, but many (both ordinary people and religious scholars) now think that it should be mandatory because of the West's anti-Islamic predjudice. The West also deliberately supresses the medical information relating to the benefits of female circumcision. Particularly in the case of Egypt where due to Western pressure its practice was banned for many years - but then permitted again some years ago - substantial comparative data has been gathered. [While female circumcision was banned it nevertheless continued to be practiced, although admittedly under less than perfect conditions - and this was one of the reasons why the Egyptian government lifted the ban]. Within a few years of the ban being lifted, female circumcison rates shot up from 90% in the countryside and 50% in the cities to 97% throughout the country. It could be clearly seen from the data that, in the case of full female circumcision, genito-urinary tract infections were reduced to about 10% of their level in previously uncircumcised women. Even when only partial circumcisions were performed, there was still some preventative benefit. Also, and very importantly, births amongst circumcised women were found to be easier. This is exactly the opposite of what the Western "Feminist" and "Human Rights" groups would have you believe. With external genital tissue already removed, there was far less need for episiotomies. Caesarain births were reduced. Labour is generally shorter and easier in circumcised women and healing of the birth canal and the surrounding region much easier. Fourthly, another of the great myths put about by Western anti-female circumcision groups is that it stops a woman from enjoying sex. Nothing could be further from the truth. Female circumcision does remove unwanted and unintentional arousal, there is no doubt about that, but until you have undergone female circumcision you can't be aware of just how much involuntary (and completely unneeded) arousal occurs because of previously unnoticed rubbing or pressure on your genitals. Many women in Egypt who have been initially partially circumcised have opted for full circumcision because in day-to-day life it brings about a very profound feeling of contentment, calmness and satisfaction. You are completely freed from sexual thoughts, you can have no idea how liberating that feels. It is like removing an itch that you cannot scratch. There is no feeling of loss - specifically because the very thing that caused you to desire sex all the time has been removed. Do not believe the myth that sexual arousal is all in the mind. So if arousal is removed, doesn't that mean sex is less enjoyable? It is exactly the opposite! Intercourse is far more pleasurable because the whole of the sexual act is made spiritual in nature and focuses entirely on intercourse with your husband. Do circumcised women still enjoy orgasms? OF COURSE THEY DO! With no external genital tissue in the way, penetration is deeper and more satisfying and with all sensation coming only from penetration, the resulting vaginal orgasim is deeply intense in a way that an uncircumcised woman could not understand. Fifthly, there is also a great deal of hypocrisy from the West, particularly in regard to plastic surgery. How can it be OK for Western women to have breast surgery, nose jobs or (dangerous) lipo-suction - all in the name of aesthetics, but it's not OK for a Muslim woman to change her body? Sixth, it is well known in countries as far afield as Indonesia and Malasyia to Egypt, that girls who have been circumcised do better in school and university. How can it be that the West claims to champion women's rights but tries to deny Muslim girls the right to a better education, something that is closely correlated with the practice of female circumcision in Muslim countries? And finally what of the myth that female circumcision is dying out. Well the West can stick its head in the sand if it likes. It certianly suits us. Of course, if the various "feminist", "human rights" and anti-female circumcision groups in the West were forced to confront the actual figures, then it might help expose the rest of their lies about female circumcision to their deceived populations. Even the Western estimates acknowledge that as many as 200 million Muslim women have been circumcised world wide. They know that the number is growing both as the Muslim population grows and as access to better medical facilities allows it to be carried out by a greater proportion of the Muslim population. In some countries like Egypt, Malasia and Indonesia female circumcision is almost 100%. [Just think, if any of you go on holiday to Egypt all the women you pass (including any female doctors and nurses) have undergone either partial or full female circumcision. How is it that they can be happy with their lifes and seek to continue the practice in what is obviously an open, friendly and civilised country if they weren't happy with being circumcised?] Its practice is now also spreading to other Muslims from countries like Pakistan, Northern India and Bangladesh - often it is now being found amongst Muslims who have settled in the West. I ask you this question, if a religious practice of yours was banned, do you think you would be more or less likely to continue with its practice? It is only because of Muslims natural reluctance to talk openly about sex and because of the deliberate suppression of information from Muslim countries - including interviews with medical staff and Muslim women and who have been circumcised who argue strongly for it to continue - that there has been no open debate about the nature and benefits of female circumcision. The West claims to champion freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and a rational approach to life and yet when it comes to female circumcision it couldn't be more irrational and hypocritical - instead it gives voice only to hysterical lies from rabid pro-lesbian "feminist" and anti-Islamic groups. Are we Muslims being told that some are more equal than others? Think how you would feel if the situation was reversed.
Posts: 7 | From: pakistan | Registered: Aug 2006
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fathima you are an ignorant idiot who doesn't know anything about islam. speak for yourself only
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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and by they way, removing the clitoris will not inhibt the libido. circumcised women get horny too, the only difference is that they will never be satisfied.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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One of the common misconceptions is to connect female circumcision with the teachings of Islam. This appendix addresses the following three questions:
1. WAS FEMALE CIRCUMCISION INTRODUCED BY ISLAM? While the exact origin of female circumcision is not known, "it preceded Christianity and Islam." [1] The most radical form of female circumcision (infibulation) is known as the Pharaonic Procedure. This may signify that it may have been practiced long before the rise of Islam, Christianity and possibly Judaism. It is not clear, however, whether this practice originated in Egypt or in some other African countries then spread to Egypt. [2]
It is common knowledge that in some countries like Egypt, female circumcision has been practiced by both Muslims and Christians. [3] In the meantime, this practice is not known in most Muslim countries including Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. [4] This leads to the conclusion that female circumcision is connected with cultural practices rather than with Islam itself as a world religion. It was made clear in the introduction of this book that some cultural practices, whether by Muslims alone or Muslims and others (such as the case with female circumcision), are not part of Islam and in some instances may violate its teachings as embodied in its primary sources, Qur'an and Hadeeth. These sources are examined next.
2. IS THERE ANY AUTHENTIC TEXT IN THE PRIMARY SOURCES OF ISLAM WHICH REQUIRES FEMALE CIRCUMCISION FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS?
No mention of female circumcision is to be found in the Qur'an either directly or indirectly. There is no known Hadeeth which requires female circumcision. Some argued, however, that one Hadeeth, while not requiring female circumcision, appears to accept it: "Circumcision is a commedable act for men (Sunnah) and is an honorable thing for women (Makromah)." [5]
There are two observations on this Hadeeth:
a) A distinction is made between male circumcision which is described in a stronger religious term (Sunnah) [6] or commendable while another weaker description is given to female circumcision (Makromah) which implies no religious obligation. b) This Hadeeth is of weak authenticity (dha'eef) according to Hadeeth scholars. [7]
There is, however, a more authentic Hadeeth in which Prophet Muhammad (P) is reported to have passed by a woman performing circumcision on a young girl. He instructed the woman by saying: "Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband." [8] While the Prophet (P) did not explicitly ban this practice, his words project a great deal of sensitivity to the instinctive needs of females and their matrimonal happiness and legitimate enjoyment. Reference to the brightness of the face and to better relationship with the husband are clear indications of his senstivity and compassion. They also stand in contrast to the arguments that female circumcision "controls" the woman's sexual appetite and hence contributes to sexual morality and virtue in society. It is true that Islam requires adherents of both genders to be chaste. Yet, there is no text in the Qur'an or Sunnah which requires selective curtailment or control of the sexual desire of one specific gender. Furthermore, chastity and virtue are not contingent on "cutting off" part of any sensitive and crucial human organ. Rather, they are contingent on spiritual and moral values of the person and the supporting virtuous environments.
3. SHOULD FEMALE CIRCUMCISION BE BANNED OR RESTRICTED?
Shari'ah (Islamic law) divides actions into five categories; mandatory, commendable, permissible, detestable and strictly forbidden. Female circumcision falls within the category of the permissible. It was probably on this basis that some scholars opposed a sweeping ban of this practice. Before discussing this view, it is important to distinguish between different types of procedures that were and still are called circumcision.
TYPES OF CIRCUMCISION
a) Removal of the hood (or prepuce) of the clitoris. This procedure is, to some degree, analgous to male circumcision since in both cases, no part of the sexual organ is cut off. In both cases also, it is only the foreskin, or outer fold of the skin, which is cut off. Properly done, it is not likely to cause any "matrimonial" problem. While some may call it "sunnah circumcision," this is their own appellation and not that of the Prophet (P) who used the term Sunnah only in the context of male circumcision. b) Removal of the entire clitoris (clitorectomy) along with part of the labia minora, which is satured together leaving an opening. This is a form of mutilation.
c) Removal of the entire clitoris, labia minora and medial part of the labia majora, whith both sides of the female organ stitched together leaving a small opeing. This procedure requires tying together the child's legs of nearly three weeks. [9] It is called the Pharaonic procedure but may as well be called "mutilation".
It is obvious that the second and third procedures were never mandated, encouraged or even consented to by the Prophet (P). They even violate a known rule in Shari'ah prohibiting the cutting off of any part of the human body except for unavoidable reasons (e.g. medical treatment, trimming nails or hair, or for an explicitly specified reason such as male circumcision). Such necessity or need does not exist in female circumcision. Nothing justifies genital mutilation. In fact, no mutilation is allowed by Islam even in the battlefield. Not only are these two procedures unjustifiable, they are brutal, inhumane and in violation of Islam. The remaining question then relates to the first procedure. Some (e.g. the late Rector of Al-Azhar University, Sheikh Gad Al-Haque) argued that since the Prophet (P) did not ban female circumcision, it falls within the category of the permissble. As such, there is no ground for a total ban on it. However, it is within the spirit of Shari'ah to restrict something that is permissible if discovered to be harmful. For example, all fish are permisible to eat. Should a particular type of fish be proven to be poisonous or harmful, it could be banned based on a known Shari'ah rule (Al-dharar Yozaal), or harm must be removed. The real issue then boils down to whether the first procedure is harmful or not. Granted that such a procedure may not be seriously damaging like the other two, it may be argued that it is painful, traumatic and often performed in an unhygienic setting leading to infection and other problems. [10] Even if the procedure is performed by a physician, it is so delicate that not all physicians master it. [11]
It should be noted that some people oppose female circumcision as part of their opposition to any "tradition" as old and invalid. This is as inappropriate as practicing female circumcision because it is a "tradition," regardless of its consistency with Islam or not. The practice should be evaluated objectively, on the basis of
a)whether it is required religiously or not b) whether there are medical and other relevant issues to be considered in evaluating this practice.
While any form of female circumcision is already legally banned in some countries [12] and may be banned in others in the future, it is not suggested here that this is the only option. In societies and cultures where the practice is well entrenched and socio-cultural pressures for it are great [13], abrupt legal banning may not end the practice. It may cause it to be practiced "underground" and under more problematic circumstances. However the problem is serious enough that some action is needed. A starting point, perhaps, is to begin by educationg the masses in countries where female circumcision is commonly practiced. All possible media should be used in the process. The contents of this appendix may serve as an outline of such an educational program, or it is so hoped. In any case, the conclusion which appears to be certain is that there is no single text of the Qur'an and Hadeeth which requires [14] female circumcision.
Stewart, Rosemary, "Female Circumcision: Implicaitons for North American Nurses, " in Journal of Psychosocial Nursing, vol. 35, no.4, 1997, p. 35.
Al-shawkani, Nayl Al-awtar, Dar Al-Jeel, Beirut, 1973, vol. 1, p. 139.
A broader definition of Sunnah is "the words, actions and approval (or consent) of Prophet Muhammad (P)." In the context of religious obligations, however, Sunnah refers to acts that are commendable but not obligatory. It is in that context that the Prophet Muhammad (P) used the term Sunnah to refer to male circumcision but not female circumcision.
Al-Shawkani, op. cit, p.139.
Al-Tabarani, quoted in Al-albani, Muhammad N., Silsilat al-Ahadeeth Al-Sahihah, Al Maktab Al-Islami, Beirut, Lebanon, 1983, vol. 2, Hadeeth no. 722, pp. 353-358 espeically pp. 356-257. See also N. keller (translator/editor), The Reliance of the Traveller by Ahmad al-Masri, Modern Printing Press, Dubai, 1991, e 4.3, p. 59.
Stewart, op. cit, p.35
Including bleeding, scars, painful intercourse, difficulty to achieve sexual fulfillment which may lead to pain, reducing chances of pregnancy, causing infertility in some instances, chronic pelvic infection, urinary tract infection, psychological problems and unhappy husbands. See Stewart, op. cit, pp. 36-37.
The author was informed by some physicians that since the clitoris itself is quite tiny, even tinier in younger girls it is very diffucult to do the first procedure proberly even by a non-specialist physician. The much easier procedure of male circumcision is usually referred to a physician with expeirence in that particular procedure.
Presently female circumcision is illegal in Britain and other European countries through the passage of the Prophibition of Female Circumcision Act of 1985. Due to the publicity given to this topic recently, other countries are expected to follow suit, especially those with large number of immigrants from countries which practice this procedure. Stewart, op. cit, p. 36.
Some such pressure is the non-Islamically based cultural norms that only a circumcised woman is fit for marriage, other superstitious ideas that a child born to an uncircumcised woman is likely to die. See for example Stewart, op. cit, p. 36.
Reference is sometimes made to a saying of the Prophet Muhammad (P) narrated in Ahmad, also in Malik with similar wordings to the effect that if the two areas of circumcision (for a male and female) touch one another, than Ghusl (bathing) is required. This expression simply signified that after the intimate matrimonial relationship, both husband and wife must take a complete bath before they perform their daily prayers. The relevant part of this Hadeeth, however, is its reference to the two circumcised parts. Imam Ahmad uses this Hadeeth as an evidence that women (in Madinah) used to be circumcised. This is no evidence, however, that it was religiously required. It could have been a cultural practice which was not prohibited. Even the few Ahadeeth which Al-Albani considered to be authentic do not require female circumcision as discussed earlier. In fact, some of them speak against radical forms of circumcision.
See Sabiq, Al-Sayyid, Fiqh Al-Sunnah, Darl Al-Kitab Al-Arabi, Beirut, 1969, vol. 1, pp. 37 and 66. Also Al-Albani, Muhammad N., Tamam Al-Minnah Fi Al-Ta'leeq Ala Fiq Al-Sunnah, Al-Maktabah Al-Islamiyyah, Amman, 3rd printing, 1409 A.H., p. 67, and Muwatta' Al-Imam Malik, Dar Al-Qalam, Beirut, n.d., pp 50-51.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Why should women not enjoy sex? And just as all muslims are not terrorist, all western women are not slappers
Posts: 167 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I am a Muslim and there is nothing in the Koran anywhere that advocates circumcision for women. Allah made you as you were intended to be. Bits were not added purely for religious leaders to order their removal just to curb any lust that they might cause. Why any woman in her right mind would voluntarily do this is totally beyond my comprehension.
posted
Why can't people accept their nature? Sex is a natural practice and should be enjoyed. Ethics should regard other things, not love. How we manage to make our life complicated, I don't understand.
Posts: 327 | From: balad alnour | Registered: Sep 2004
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why would the lady keep her clitoris in a jar? ( first post) Thats a bit freaky. How do you explain extreme frigitity in non-circumsised women? Shouldnt they be continually libidious if the simple fact of having a clitoris is to blame for sexual arousal and therefore "bad" behaviour? I think that sexual arousal is part of being human, and mostly to do with the brain rather than exclusively a body part such as the clitoris. And for women I think emotional attatchment and stability in a relationship is what brings about greater arousal in most cases.
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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who are you anyway?? the first post you post is about circumcision!!! emmm why is the sudden intrest in this all over the forum?? it really upset me that mothers do that to thier kids and it does not have any evidance from the quran and suna to support this. i spoke to one mother who think that is very important for her girl to live healthy childhood!!! i asked her how? she told me that her girl was always itching her self and spent long time in the loo but after doing that to my girl she now play with childern normally!!! some people really belive in this stuff !!!how sad, i will never let anything like that happen to my kid.
Posts: 816 | From: london | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by fathima: "Female circumcision is a very minor and safe surgery under modern medical supervision. The wound is even smaller than that of male circumcision" Dr. Shamir stated.
Sure. And it also eliminates the risk of all those terrible things that can happen to an uncircumcized woman, such as:
The birth of hydrocephalic babies Poisoning of the mothers milk Bad genital odors Vaginal cancer Masturbation Homosexuality Adult nervousness Neurosis due to excessive sex drive The death of any husband whose penis contacts a clitoris
I'm sure you and islamsweden will get on great ... in fact I'm wondering if you might be the same person. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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whatever fatima!!!! all it does keep the girl from enjoyin herself in bed. this has nothing to do with ISLAM!!! it is culture thing in africa christain do it as well.
Posts: 816 | From: london | Registered: Jul 2006
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Well, I would go for an adult woman making this decision, after all it's her body. But after this comment, I think the writer is still a victim of brainwashing. If you, she, or anyone thinks Western women have sex because they have intact clitorises, you are out of your mind.
quote:Well, old habit die hard, people say. Looks like Egyptian women are not going to let themselves go wild like their western sisters.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by fathima: "Female circumcision is a very minor and safe surgery under modern medical supervision. The wound is even smaller than that of male circumcision" Dr. Shamir stated.
Sure. And it also eliminates the risk of all those terrible things that can happen to an uncircumcized woman, such as:
The birth of hydrocephalic babies Poisoning of the mothers milk Bad genital odors Vaginal cancer Masturbation Homosexuality Adult nervousness Neurosis due to excessive sex drive The death of any husband whose penis contacts a clitoris
hey dalia, you forget a very important one. if you don't remove the clitoris it will grow to become a penis Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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nope, it's not me. but, actually, I dont know. she may read my posts in religion section or what? I'm slightly confused. but anyway??
Fathima, do you know the types of females circumcion?? what is mentioned in hadith?? what's banned??
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by fathima: My dear sister Sara_uk
In western countries so many women perform Cosmetic surgery for increasing the beauty . Lot of women do brest enlargement.
If this is permitted in west what is wrong in circumcising muslim girls in Egypt ? Circumcision is good for cleanness of muslim girls
with love your sister in islam fathima
fathima309@yahoo.com
Hey speaking of that Fat(be)hima, I thought changing God's creation through plastic surgery was haram, why doesn't it apply to the clitoris then ya Kafir?
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by fathima: Women don't need their clitoris for marriage and having children anyway."
Isn't it incumbent upon a husband and a wife in Islam to satisfy each other sexually? By removing or reducing a woman's sexual desire or ability to achieve orgasm, that duty toward the spouse can be severely compromised.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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22 year old medical student Najwa Khasmera Abdullah decided to have herself circumcised.
Looks like Egyptian women are not going to let themselves go wild like their western sisters.
1. shes 22, she has the right to do whatever she wants to herself.
2. there are plenty egyptian women who are NOT having the surgery and are NOT "running wild"... and as a subscriber to BMEzine myself i can assure you there are plenty of western women who are electing to have the surgery and work in brothels.
no offense, but you sound to me like an egyptian woman who had this done to her is are now desperately looking for a way to feel good about it by believing it makes you a good egyptian woman and that those who did not have it forced upon them are now electing to be just like you.
Posts: 5642 | From: hellonearth.myfastforum.org Forum Index | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari: Hey speaking of that Fat(be)hima, I thought changing God's creation through plastic surgery was haram, why doesn't it apply to the clitoris then ya Kafir?
I've always wondered why the very same sheikhs who are pro female circumcision issue fatwas declaring eyebrow plucking haram because it's changing God's creation.
posted
just to be a devil's advocate (awotho bellahe men al shaytan al rajeem) - doesn't it also make you mad to think about circumcizing boys? I mean, you take a little baby boy and have something cut off his penis? Then you wonder why guys have so much aggression and penis obsession? They spend the rest of their lives subconciously trying to find a salve for the injury done to them just after birth. Right?
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari: Hey speaking of that Fat(be)hima, I thought changing God's creation through plastic surgery was haram, why doesn't it apply to the clitoris then ya Kafir?
I've always wondered why the very same sheikhs who are pro female circumcision issue fatwas declaring eyebrow plucking haram because it's changing God's creation.
The world is weird sometimes - but this is absolutely one of the most weirdest thing I have ever heard....
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
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circumcision is not mentioned in islam whether for men OR female, it is mandatory though in jewish religion. I believe anyone making change around with his body, cutting it or diforming it in any matter that might be is just playing with god's creation, he made us and he made every part of our body, and each part has its own role, if some perverts think differently then that is their own problem... but please dont use religion as a shield for your action....
-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari: Hey speaking of that Fat(be)hima, I thought changing God's creation through plastic surgery was haram, why doesn't it apply to the clitoris then ya Kafir?
I've always wondered why the very same sheikhs who are pro female circumcision issue fatwas declaring eyebrow plucking haram because it's changing God's creation.
YOu misunderstand the verse completely. you cant apply this verse in nails and for hairs. It also cant be applied in the type of operations that is useful ( In case of Breast cancer for example)
ps Some women have a moustache, is it illegal to remove it?
I think this verse is applied for tattos and for bucked eyebrow.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
islam weden are you commenting on my feed back? coz you aint clear in your statement.... i am talking about any physical change not hair, not nails, and not eyebrows also not mastectomy or silicon implant
-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Well I'm quite sure my Egyptian lover would be horrified if he thought any form of circumcision was performed on me!!!! The clitoris is an important part of a woman's anatomy, and irrespective of religious beliefs, we are born with it so what is the problem. As to reducing the risk of infections, I am fortunate enough to have never in my life experienced any form of urinary or any other type of genital infection or disease - perhaps it aids those who have major problems with such, but I doubt it - you are either susceptible to them, or not, it is not the fault of the clitoris that you get them.
Posts: 61 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2006
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-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: i condmen all kind of fgm except what they call Sunna circumcision .
God ordered prophet Abrahem to carry out it. This is mentioned in Sunnah i think i read it.
Medicine proves its benefits for men and women(not all women need it but some)
Go and search for the truth yourself.
Ta3ala hena ya baba!! Sunna eeh ya roo7y?
There is strong proof that Mohamed DID NOT have his daughters circumcized.
He would have been the first to do it if it was Sunna right?
That story about the Sunna form of circumcision is utter illusion. The prophet could NOT totally ban the infibulation in his time, so he asked the African immigrants to at least have it done less severely.. This is totally different from telling people to do it.
Karrahtoona fel deen gatkom el 2araf!!!
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Circumcision is not only barbaric, it's also stupid - the 'G' spot, proves this.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Female circumcision involving the complete removal of the clitoris cannot possibly be equated with male circumcision which only removes the foreskin. Therefore to make fair comparison, shouldnt male circumcision involve the removal of the penis?
Posts: 1196 | From: www.spiritofthenile.com | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
there are more than one type of circumcision, female and male.
yes, there are types of male circumcision that remove the penis. its unfair to compare one type of female circumcision to a different type of male circumcision.
i think circum means around and cision cut ie cut around. (er.. could be wrong)...
Posts: 5642 | From: hellonearth.myfastforum.org Forum Index | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
oh god that is enough with that disgusting topic taba2 koshari I raise my hat for you my friend....being so audacious and brave towards ignorance is good. and i bet you are a girl coz it only takes a girl to be so audacious god bless you
-------------------- Always remembering that we are nothing without His Merciful hand over us. Posts: 284 | From: gods heaven | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
this whole thread is a trip, i would never put my daughter through the pain and horror of mutilation, the way God made her is fine....
Posts: 100 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: YOu misunderstand the verse completely. you cant apply this verse in nails and for hairs. It also cant be applied in the type of operations that is useful ( In case of Breast cancer for example)
ps Some women have a moustache, is it illegal to remove it?
I think this verse is applied for tattos and for bucked eyebrow.
I would really appreciate it if you could read my posts properly instead of just skimming them and then completely misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It's very annoying to clarify everything you write five times becaues people don't care to read properly.
I do NOT believe that the verse about changing God's creation can be used to prohibit eyebrow plucking! And I certainly don't believe that it prohibits any sort of operation that is necessary for maintaining a person's health.
What I said was that I find it bizarre and contradictory that some sheikhs who promote circumcision say that plucking eyebrows or doing tattoos is haram by referring to the abovementioned verse.
It is forbidden for a woman to remove her eyebrows or part of them by any means, whether it be by shaving, cutting, using a depilatory substance, because this constitutes the plucking for which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the one who does it, i.e., the women who plucks all or part of her eyebrows, claiming that it is for the purpose of beautification, or the woman who does that for her. This is changing the creation of Allaah which the Shaytaan promised to enjoin upon the sons of Adam.
posted
Why change something you are born with? This is all about control not religion. Why do people seem to think western women are slappers. This is total rubbish. Alot of the older generation I know like my parents have been married for 30 or 40 years and have only known one partner. Most western girls would never consider going with another man if they were in love and had a good husband. If you truly love somebody you only have eyes for them!! Why do you need anybody else? Some of you people here need to educate yourselves. Not only that if a wife is intact she can give far more pleasure to her husband. Making love is a two way thing!
Posts: 142 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Ezact! uklady, some posts do suggest western women are slappers; but it is true there is variety in men and women the world over, but perhaps less so in Islam because of religious rules. You only have to look to the way they generalise the behaviour of girls and boys going to Ibiza, and view the TV shows about it to see how some British behave out of their own environment!
Beauty and Love is in the eyes of the beholder, and if the practice of circumcision is more common than we may be led to believe, men are likely to find more intact women in the west.
Whilst it also seems true that some older women may be seeking love abroad to younger men, or have been targeted by younger men from abroad, it's also true that some younger men have a preference for older and larger ladies. No doubt some will say that's because she'll die earlier and then he'll have everything, so that still makes us stupid. Perhaps some western women, irrespective of age, fortune, property, birthplace (granting passport/permit to husband of), just might have something different that is attractive to a man. Perhaps it's the 'intactness' factor?
Posts: 61 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by simpri: You only have to look to the way they generalise the behaviour of girls and boys going to Ibiza, and view the TV shows about it to see how some British behave out of their own environment!
Sorry, do not mean Islamic people by 'they', I meant the UK TV shows!!
Posts: 61 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Yes, I agree with you simpri! It must be that intactness factor why these men like western women! lol Must be that. I never intentially went for a younger man it just happened in Dubai! We worked together. Who knows how this story is going to end.
Posts: 142 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I think that FGM can cause incontience and that it should not be done and that it causes severe pain during intercourse and pain when peeing. Removing the clit may be uncomfortable. I think this is not good.
Posts: 935 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I know that you don't like me, Charm. I really did not mean to sound like that I did not know that it would be uncomfortable.
Posts: 935 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: YOu misunderstand the verse completely. you cant apply this verse in nails and for hairs. It also cant be applied in the type of operations that is useful ( In case of Breast cancer for example)
ps Some women have a moustache, is it illegal to remove it?
I think this verse is applied for tattos and for bucked eyebrow.
I would really appreciate it if you could read my posts properly instead of just skimming them and then completely misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. It's very annoying to clarify everything you write five times becaues people don't care to read properly.
I do NOT believe that the verse about changing God's creation can be used to prohibit eyebrow plucking! And I certainly don't believe that it prohibits any sort of operation that is necessary for maintaining a person's health.
What I said was that I find it bizarre and contradictory that some sheikhs who promote circumcision say that plucking eyebrows or doing tattoos is haram by referring to the abovementioned verse.
It is forbidden for a woman to remove her eyebrows or part of them by any means, whether it be by shaving, cutting, using a depilatory substance, because this constitutes the plucking for which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the one who does it, i.e., the women who plucks all or part of her eyebrows, claiming that it is for the purpose of beautification, or the woman who does that for her. This is changing the creation of Allaah which the Shaytaan promised to enjoin upon the sons of Adam.
Hey, Dalia, How are you today? are you still puking? anyway, the hadith verse is explaining the Quranic verse you refer. In al-Saheeh, it was reported that Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Allaah has cursed the women who do tattoos and those who have this done, the women who pluck eyebrows and those who have this done, and the women who file their teeth and change the creation of Allaah.” Then he said: “Should I not curse those whom the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed, when it says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, abstain (from it)…’ [al-Hashr 59:7]”
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: anyway, the hadith verse is explaining the Quranic verse you refer.
Are you deliberately pretending you misunderstand, so that you can change the subject?
The sheikh is using 4:119 in order to justify his opinion that eyebrow plucking is haram.
I posted the part of this text because it proved my point, not to discuss fatwas about eyebrow plucking. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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