My observations of the Egyptian hunting grounds in action as seen by me (meaning, this is only my personal take, someone else's opinion may well differ...) asked for by dear Ahly here, who wants to know aaaall about the 'bad guys'...
Well, what can I tell you - they exist, sadly, as everywhere - only that in Egyptian touristic hotspots these take a certain form, or rather, have a very definite style. And bad is, of course, bad, so no point or reason to make any excuses - if deceit is practised, this is a terrible thing, and I am sorry for all those to whom it happens.
Alas, I find that quite often with these cross-cultural relationships, there are some mitigating circumstances, too... It is generally speaking quite a loaded subject, these holiday meetings and what becomes of them - just because there are so many differing opinions, hopes, ideas and dreams (all down to cultures, societal norms and religion) clashing (and clashing hard at that!!).
Ladies who seriously fall in love with a chap while on holiday in Egypt, and then hope to make this work and perhaps turn into marriage, really ought to be informed about the following - it's not enough saying our norms are different. One should explain just HOW different - such as, there is no sex before marriage. There is no living together, most young people live at home until they marry, they do not move into their own place. And to get to know a prospective partner well, one first needs to be engaged - otherwise a young couple would never be allowed to spend time together, let alone ever on their own (but even after this engagement it is common for a bunch of sisters or cousins to drag along everywhere... Well, as one does in Egypt, people rarely go anywhere or do anything totally alone, ca, there's always a crowd...).
This engagement is agreed by the families (if both of the couple say yes), families check the other one's reputation, financial standing, education, jobs, future prospects, and on the grounds of that, they either agree or do not - if they do, the way is now clear for the couple to have actual dates /meetings and find out about each other.
This is why Egyptians talk about marriage soooooooo fast to European ladies, once they meet them and are enamoured - because an engagement is what they are used to in this situation, it means all is honourable and proper to get to know each other (and if something lasting comes of it, so much the better...).
To Westerners, engagement has a rather different meaning - one has already dated, got to know each other, lived together and now just wants to make this forever. The Egyptian man MAY be thinking this, or at least be hoping for it, but he won't necessarily think this is it and forever - I have young Egyptian friends, who cannot count the number of their engagements on two hands; it's not hard to break these off and start again, this happens aaaaall the time (only gets a bit more tricky when the couple has been dating for a year or longer, and the negotiations have come along nicely between the families).
And THIS is really what many Western ladies ought to know when faced with a sudden and terribly fast proposal sweeping them off their feet - this does not have the same meaning as for us!!!
Due to Western norms, and Egyptian needs (haha) and wishes a cross-cultural couple met-on-holiday will then most commonly decide to seriously spend time together - this is where Orfi comes into it... IF presented correctly as to what it is, what it means, legal or not blahblah, and both are in agreement as to their wishes, nothing wrong with it.
One can, after all, not get a hotel room or flat together without such a piece of paper, nor can one travel throughout the country together, the first road block of an Egyptian man and a foreign lady together in a car would be the end of the journey... There have been such couples questioned as to their marital status, meaning and intent even on the street in Cairo, Luxor ALL the time, all the bigger cities, too - tourist police is quite concerned about foreigners, knowing that some can and do get ripped off...
For the serious couples, Orfi is also a much faster way to be allowed to be together, than to wait for the real, proper marriage (provided both are talking about that!!)- this will take months and a lot of concentration to get papers together, so this is like a first step...
Only that the real status of Orfi - and the light in which this is viewed - is not known to many foreign ladies - they have no idea that policemen and others might think rather badly of them, while they commonly feel this is a serious thing, proves his love and is leading onto the real thing for them.
Well, not always... I know one European lady who signed one of these, no lawyer, just the 2 witnesses, not legalised, with one chap, ripped it up - but just her copy!!! Mistake!!! - and next holiday signed another paper with another chap. First chap got to hear of this and had her arrested and thrown in jail for bigamy (he had kept HIS copy..), so she had TWO husbands...
2nd husband also went to jail, and was given a very hard time of it - she, of course, was more than shocked at the conditions of an Egyptian jail, noooooo comparison to the West!!! - 1st husband showed himself prepared to withdraw charges and sign post-dated divorce decree IF he was paid a certain sum by lady as incentive, whereupon couple was released from jail. Lady in question is in her late 50ties, men in their 20ties, so we all know what we call THAT kind of tourist - and while 1st husband definitely was out to get as much as he could (2nd probably),in THIS one case, I would not necessarily blame him... Both using each other cheaply, right...
In any case, important note to all who are planning on an Orfi marriage - DO make sure you get both copies as you go home!!! Even when you intend to come back, you can always bring it again, there's no reason for him to need it in your absence - and should it ever get to breaking up, never take his word for it that he destroyed his copy!!! (By the way, it is equally easy and cheap to get an equally simple - as the Orfi pre-printed contract - 'divorce certificate' from a lawyer's office, yeah, even for unlegalised Orfi, too... Better safe than sorry!!!).
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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Oh, oh, all that and I haven't got to the bad guys yet - with the one exception above, naturally he was not upset that she re-married, he saw a chance there... Still, one can hardly imagine it was true love for the female, either!!!
But I feel it is very important to mention these different starting points when the word 'marriage' is mentioned in Egypt - it would prevent a lot of heartache and wishful thinking if the ladies only knew the intricacies!!!
Still, getting to the bad guys now... Because most often, a situation which has progressed this far - to Orfi - is still meant as the real thing, and serious...
Difficulties only often set in later on, after a few visits, when more and more of the culture and different thinking and expectations become apparent, after this dreadfully romantic start... And the family is put into the picture... Let's not forget these guys are far from their homes and their families influence, they are surrounded by many other youngsters only, a LOT of temptation and baaaad examples, so they will do things they never would have thought of at home.
I KNOW one often hears that a proper Egyptian man will not touch his bride before marriage... I do not believe this true any longer, when faced with an Egyptian fiancee, most often, yes (but even here not all the time), because they have no choice - but when with a European woman who is used to different conduct, and as long as the family does not know, they have no problem and quite appreciate this opportunity....
However, this difference in behaviours naturally is an added incentive, extra bonus, to a romantically inclined Egyptian - with the vast majority of Egy ladies he would not stand a chance to be equally free, if he's from the country, he's not even seen too much of the female body ever (including knees and bare arms), so sometimes it might be more lust than love which he feels (but hardly ever makes this clear, as many ladies would not liké this. Some do not care at all, but this is where the chap must be honest and the lady employ some common sense and realism).
Next, the money-thing... Which unfortunately some chaps really count on, this is the main reason for their efforts. Reasons are presumably many - other than some guys just are wicked liars - but poverty has something to do with it... There is no job security or protection in Egypt, especially not in the tourist industry - anyone can be out on their ear from one day to the next. It is also no welfare state, when jobless you don't eat. And lastly, it is a country of connections and corruption, meaning it is never merit alone which gets one a good position, helps one to advance etc - where you are, is where wou will be stuck forever, UNLESS you come into some cash of your own. (Personally, I find the level of serious frustration with the status quo amongst young Egyptians very, very sad, and also very understandable - a smart government would take note and institute some changes, so far, that is ia vain hope...).
And foreigners are perceived to have a whole lot more cash - for a start, we can afford foreign holidays - then they hear about huge salaries (not considering the higher living costs for us) and about easy state money for nothing, so any shyness or respectable not-asking-woman-for-money goes out the window with that excuse. PLUS the lady offers very often - in particular if her guy works in a hotel for LE350 a month, sharing an awful room with 5 others, eating cold left-over's from the buffet with his colleagues, then she may well feel it is more fair for her to pay - and he accepts, on the above grounds, no guilt feelings (and let's face it, most foreign ladies would be very hard pressed to so drastically lower their living standard to be able to be fed and housed from his salary, so they rather pay for all the fun out together).
But, this is something a chap can get used to nicely - and he may come to want this lifestyle (eating out, discos, hire cars, presents) ALL the time... Perhaps even an own rented flat, better still, she buys one for her time there, he lives there always - or the jackpot, the capital for his own small shop...
It is guys like that, who have hit the jackpot, so to speak, who are visible for all others slogging away there - mainly because these guys will brag and show off... This is rarely about putting money aside for the future in some devious plan, this is about living it up and being envied and greeted by all NOW - I know of one chap who was given approx. LE 800,000 by 3 ladies, and when finally ordered by the court to return most of it, he had nothing left after 3 years of plenty champagne, more ladies and everyone in town knowing him...
Of course, that wasn't very smart - and some guys do think of their future (alone) and so start a business of sorts with her money - naturally letting her believe that this is part of the future life together, most often, for her later life or 'retirement plan' - the females with sufficient funds have to be at least 40 or more (and sometimes even much, much more, you'd be shocked and surprised!!! Or just wonder whether you need glasses, can you really be seeing this?!?!).
So this is where we begin to differentiate the 'bad guys' from the probably-still-good, when he starts mentioning the joys of her owning her own holiday home, or investing in sure-fire business for which she needs an Egyptian business partnner.. (NOT TRUE, the law was changed 3 years ago and now foreigners CAN own 100% of an Egyptian company all by themselves).
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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that one of the best I ever read and yes it is right I just disagree about it is in general that can be consider for the guys comes from poor village or have hard life, none educated but that not goes to meddle class and high class society. Second disagree about Orfi "I am black and white man" so that I will never agree that my sons do or even agree that my sister ever do it…. Because it is not right as Egyptian Culture, it is just back door to go around the culture. And for sure disrespect for the partner. But really I enjoy reading what you said and I hope all read that one.
My hate off for you
Posts: 233 | From: Cairo | Registered: Dec 2006
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So if a foreign lady is really interested in having her own home, or investing in a business (never in his, though, especially while she is absent - makes the relationship too unequal and leaves it wide open for abuse) she MUST employ her own experienced lawyer - vs the first one he recommends... She must also have official contracts for all, with two sets of originals, one Arabic, the other a certified English translation also to be signed and stamped by lawyer, and in the case of house or land purchase she must take this contract to the land registry HERSELF. (If bad, he might howl and wail at all this and accuse her of no love and no trust... Too bad, ESSENTIAL!!!).
Where trust and love can get her is this - she visits 3times a year, he lives in the home all year and entertains numerous other ladies there - many of whom may ALSO give him money. These guys are good!!! - or the home may be in HIS name instead of hers, she'll find this out when he leaves. He loses all money with the business - no time now the high life is waiting, not good at it - or the business is totally in his name, too.
There was one guy in a small Red Sea resort, titled 'The King of Players' by all living there, everyone knew, of course, but a guy will never rat on another - who had the wife's house and car all year, saw her during short visits, the rest of the time had about 35 others per year (more cash, all of them), did not work for 4 years - his story was always he just lost his job, and the pooooor family now, oh, oh), and then set up a souvenir stall on a beach, but this was just 'for better hunting' cause all visitors had to come past there...
That is just one example, but unfortunately, word of this gets around, many become eager and are happy to also try this out - and one should always ask oneself about commonalities with the man... His education, his current job, his prospects, intellectual level - whispering sweet nothings can't be all when thinking of a life together, but too often a professional lady will fall madly in love with a waiter or receptionist - CAN such a combination have a future??? Add to that the culture, the religion, different language, and ladies really ought to do some serious thinking here... (Especially if 20 or more years older).
Plus where and how they meet... On beach, on tours and in discos is always bad - these guys have PLENTY!!!
Something like the above may start off vaguely serious, with the best of intentions - but if it was not planned this way already, when it starts to go wrong, guy will think let me get something out of this... Which means he will start to have bad luck, need doctors, lose jobs and mobiles, be threatened with prison for debts, etc...
(Incidentally, if you can't pay your debts and there was a court case you DO go to prison until you pay up. Most cars are indeed NOT insured in Egypt. And hospital costs ARE huge for the average person, but one collects money from family, all friends and colleagues - and everybody gives, even just a bit - me, too, many times. Thing is, that's what he will do if lady does not send funds, go collecting..).
So again, ladies who want more than just a lovely holiday romance must do a lot of thinking on all the above points, look at the guy HARD and close for a while, before they become too trusting and then end up heartbroken.... And / or poor...
Alternatively, one travels with different intentions and is clear about what one pays for - but here sadly are still cases of older ladies who for some reason seriously, seriously thought this is a lasting thing while for the guy this is very hard work - last true story, woman of 57 had 23 year old guy. She was fully expecting to be introduced as 'the wife' to his 40 year old mother, muwhahahaha... Upon end of thing, she was full of 'the beautiful love we had - he adored me - the wild erotic passion we had for each other', sniffing and sobbing away, seriously upset (for which I was very sorry, but still had to wonder how she could ever have seen ANY kind of future...). His side of the story???? 'I hated myself' he said (not to me, to a man, my boss, the lawyer) 'but I was thinking to better my situation, what can I do - but it was so horrible, I had to drink half a bottle of whiskey and take 2 viagra every time'.
There you have it, dear readers - there are all kinds of variatons of actors and actresses here... Greetings to all who chewed their weay through this, hope you are pleased, dear Ahly!!! Bubble
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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So it sounds like 3 foreign women were able to successfully sue this guy and get a judgement for him to return their money.
One woman was charged with bigamy.
I wonder why 3 women would feel motivated to sue, while 6 women who are orfi married to the same dude can't go after him for bigamy?
Seriously wouldn't bigamy get him more time in jail than for fraud of three women?
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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I hardly ever read long posts but I read all three of yours. Thank you for taking the trouble to post such valuable advice. I am thinking exactly the same thing but until now I wasn't willing to waste my time or energy to write my thoughts down. Only because after 1 and a half years of being here on this forum, my impression of it is that the majority of its users are those mamas whose profile you described, and they are here to brag or hope that maybe what you're saying is true, but *only* their *man* is the honest one. Most of them come back, sooner or later, with the sad and bitter truth though. And although I tend to say: "I told you so", I am actually ashamed and angry at those parasites who give Egypt a bad name.
So after sometime of seeing the desperate mamas come and go, and then more of them come and go, my frustration lead me to thinking; hell with you dumb asses, wallahi you deserve everything you get. But then again, there *are* people who need to know the whole truth, and are willing to take an honest and sincere advice. Only for those people I will contribute to this thread.
I worked and lived in Hurghada hospital for a while, and I saw and heard horror stories. Once, a gigolo was telling the other (who was obviously new to the business): "They are the left-overs of their society. No-one wanted them there (back home), and they are very weak for our nice talk, they just love us. Of course, why wouldn't they, they haven't seen so much passion before. My son (!), just get one of them and your project (probably a bazaar, a restaurant, or a diving center) will start off immediately. Forget the bank. For the bank you have to pay back.".
Another story; I was following a diving course in a center owned by an Egyptian man from Luxor, married to a stunning Australian young lady of 28 years (who never sent me back my expensive sunglasses BTW ) . They had a 10 year-old son together (Wow! he must be 20 now!). So she had the boy with him when she was 18! Anyway, she worked her ass off all year long in Australia to support the boy and came to spend the summer holiday with the husband, who stayed in Hurghada to run the diving center that was partly financed by her parents' money. The other part came from the fact that he had a second job of nailing down the rich mamas who fly in looking for love all year long. The Australian lady pretended not to know, but everyone in the diving center knew and told *me*, the passer-by!! But they do feel a certain familiarity with their co-citizens. They would never reveal the secrets of the trade to a foreign woman, but I was no threat you see!
I am also impressed by how you explained the marriage system in our culture (Forgot to mention that I'm an Egyptian woman!), so I would like to highlight the fact that if an Egyptian man does not introduce his woman to his family, and claims that in the name of romance he wants to marry you privately and there will be only the two of you together with some two weirdos picked from the street to be your witnesses (and he will claim that they are his two best friends BTW), then most probably there is him and one other woman, together, the moment you step foot on the plane back home. If family is not involved, then you're just another name on his checklist. He has plenty of you available and offering themselves, their body, money and a visa around the clock, so please don't think so highly of yourself.
There are some exceptions of course. It could be true love! But when would an Egyptian male consider true love? ONLY in the following situations:
- You're in your (early) 20s or at least a couple of years younger than him.
- You're absolutely stunning with firm boobs and ass, skinny but curvy with long blond hair and legs like the twin towers. Fatties still have hope though, but your gigolo is probably illiterate and from a nice place called Kafr el-gamoosa
- You've never been married before, or at least don't have kids from previous relations. If you've had kids out of wedlock, then you're an absolute whore in his eyes and he really is trying to overcome this thought for the sake of the other factors and/or the visa. He will probably ask you not to tell his family about your past or lie about it. Also be prepared that if he moves in with you, it will take him maximum a year to put up with your own kids and then it's either him or them.
- You have total understanding for his religion and are willing to convert (sometimes) and know for sure that your kids together will have to take his name and religion. Also the boys will always be circumcised and some of the girls too, depending on where the Egy guy comes from in Egypt. Also be informed that also Christian Egyptians would circumcise their kids. It's more of a cultural practice than a religious one.
- You know and understand that the kids are his and if you get into a struggle he will want to keep them or kidnap them if you plan to go back home with them. Mainly out of revenge and the desire to save their morals and religion (even if you two had met in the darkest watering hole, he will suddenly become the biggest Sheikh once it comes to the kids' affiliation)
And you know, several of those gigolos actually have Egyptian wives waiting for them back home in the villages where they originally come from. And that is the second reason, after giving a bad name to all Egyptians, why this whole saga gets me so mad. You see, for me personally, I honestly do not care about the whole desperate mama-gigolo phenomenon. Everyone has a brain and should use it, and everyone knows best for himself, but when it comes to contracting STDs and going back home to spreading them to the poor innocent wives, then it's time to stand up for it and feel responsible to do something (so yes, you understood it right, if you contract an STD from a gigolo on a holiday then you deserve what you get and I don't feel any compassion with you. Clear?!).
Last but not least, there are good Egyptian men who are very classy and educated and sporty and come from very good and rich families and are brilliant lovers and husbands, but they are kept back home in the big cities where they get to pick the prettiest, slimmest, most boobylicious, most bootylicious, richest and youngest of the female gender of his own people or the equivalent from the other nations. I was once engaged to one of those but had to let him go because I didn't feel true love towards him (true reasons: he had a hairy back and had a moustache, which is per definition disgusting, but a grain of rice was hanging on it once and that was the grain, I mean the straw!)
Wait until you see those in their natural habitat and I promise you, you will use the two originals of your Orfi right after your next number 2.
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bubbleperson, your posts were excellent written. I wonder if you could create a blog/website about this subject so it's easily to find when foreign women searching on the internet about information.
Usually the search starts once the fell in love with an Egyptian while being on vacation. Nothing wrong with that but some detailed information would give them the straight answer if those Egyptian men are genuine or not towards them.
And then it's still up to them to decide if they want to be in this relationship.
I definitely don't have anything against a relationship with an Egyptian men who's honestly in love with a foreign lady. But I am disgusted about the fact that many of them are playing just a game, telling big lies over and over again to different women....
Be aware, girls, and see behind these beautiful big brown eyes of your Egyptian men. They do can tell beautiful sweet lies.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I have some questions for all of you. Do you think it's impossible for an egyptian man to love a woman who does not fit in with the "norm" of youth and beauty? Is every Egyptian man that shallow?
Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder? Or is that only a western belief. Is it not possible to love a person because they have a beautiful heart and soul; and they have a coonection that draws them together.
And what if they marry them legally with the court, and introduce the lady to all the family and friends? Is it only all lies, even if the family loves and accepts them? Is the family only wanting to better their life and their sons? Wouldn't they rather keep their son at home?
And is it only possible for the most handsome and rich of Egyptian men to have a wife and love? Is every poor Egyptian man out to get what they can? If not, how would you tell the difference:
And is every older woman who fits into this category rejected by her society, and every society for that matter? Do they not deserve to be loved and accepted also?
If this is so, the world is in a sad state of affairs because not many men or women, western or eastern fall into this category. Not many people are Movie Star beautiful and rich. In fact, I rarely see anyone who is.
And what of the Egyptian woman, isn't she just using the man only to get a home, be supported and have children, and have a place in sociey; Is that better than these men, who are doing the same?
Posts: 58 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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And I forgot some questions. What of the poor, but educated Egyptian man? Might he not have a more open minded view of life and western ways, and be more accepting?
Possibly even consider marrying a divorced woman with children? Either Egyptian or western woman for that matter?
Divorced Egyptian women have been known to marry again. They are not always rejected by other Egyptians as useless trash, are they?
These are just observations and questions I have from lurking around and reading everyone's opinions.
I know I have just stirred up the hornet's nest, so to speak. I usually don't comment, but I thought maybe it would be good to see some different opions expressed here.
Posts: 58 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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I don't consider Egyptian men shallow just because they are asking for specific things foreign women might can't offer. Remember they grow up in a different culture then Westerners.
And usually the poorer someone is the more traditionally he is. That's why you read often on here that parents don't approve that their son wants to take a foreign woman as his wife. Other reasons could be she's already divorced and/or a mother. But it doesn't mean that they aren't exceptions to the norm.
Just always keep in mind, there are so many poor Egyptians who can't get married simply because they can't afford it. I think only by experiencing their poverty you can really understand what these people going through. Why Egyptian guys in holiday resorts are acting like that. Would they need to be players and prostitute themselves if they would be financially stable? Definitely not. Of course meeting and connecting with a foreign woman is the best what can happen to them; if she's beautiful and considerably 'rich' (for Egyptian standards) it's even better.
But I do met some young Egyptian guys with strong traditionally values who would never opt to marry a foreign woman, a non-Muslim on top of it.
I am not commenting at this point on Egyptian women. There is a thread on the 'living in Egypt' forum. Check it out.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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There are always reasons to have doubts. And when these can`t be answered the doubts stay.Even more doubts will show up. Then it`s a matter of make up the conclusion. A + B + C, etc...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Bubbles – what a well-written, insightful post, thanks!
It’s only a shame that some of the people who should read this information won’t bother, as they are the ones who won’t think it could ever apply to them. Some people on here only believe what they want to believe; that their story is different, that it couldn’t happen to them – and some of them are right, of course. I’m not being the messenger of doom, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with being well-informed – and that obviously goes for all aspects of your life, not only if you’re involved with an Egyptian man. Being blinkered to the fact that people do get scammed, conned, or left high and dry – or pretending it doesn’t ever happen - is no help to anyone. Posts: 463 | From: Other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2006
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Then again, they are those who go on holiday without the intention of meeting up with someone, never been to Egypt before, its just an ordinary holiday, and never heard of these scams, and never expected anything like that to happen, and believed what the man was saying simply because they themselves would be honest and trustworthy and didnt know that this sort of thing goes on. So, it wouldnt have occured to them to look on the internet for such forums to find out any information. Do you see what I mean. Short of hanging use warning bill-boards at the airport, or the travel agents handing out leaflets when you book a holiday - this will happen to those unsuspecting ones. Unfortunately.
Posts: 1056 | From: UK, Middle East & Europe | Registered: Jun 2006
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Good point, DawnBev - but short of putting this as a warning in your passport on arrival, what could be done?!
But what about when these people get back from such a holiday, all loved up with the sweet words ringing in their ears, who come on here to ask about orfi papers or babbling about marriage etc after just 1 or 2 weeks or whatever. That's when having good advice like this available - and actually taking it on board rather than dismissing it thinking it could *never* apply to you - is even more useful. Posts: 463 | From: Other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2006
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I'm just waiting for someone to 'approach me' on my next holiday to Egypt, so I can give a good verbal response/thrashing!
Ive not been loved up in years - I'm so defensive I dont let anyone through - I know I might lose out if I ever come across the potential love of my life - but I just cannot trust men, I've tried, but I just can't.
Posts: 1056 | From: UK, Middle East & Europe | Registered: Jun 2006
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Polina, your comment sounded to me as if you take it amiss that I broached this topic.... No, nice it is not - but wouldn't you rather that women are AWARE that these things do go on??? At the latest after they have been and met someone, but before bad damage to heart and pocket is done - because as DawnBev mentions, many travel with no idea, but perhaps later on look for info, in which case it can only be good if they find out about this, too!!! I really feel that the more women do NOT feel they are the one and only whom such love ever struck out the blue while abroad, they are the only such couple ever, and for this reason he MUST be overcome by deep feelings and it's all true - the more women know that there is a danger of this sort of thing going on, so one needs to keep feet firmly on ground - the better it is, more of a chance that they DO go into such a thing with eyes open...
Dear Ahly, noooo, of course it is not all of them!!! Not even all in the tourist industry (I know a number who have been working there for a few years, and have still never been led astray...), and definitely the 'real' Egypt is very, very different - I am talking about the mentality of many in Sharm, Hurghada, Safaga, Dabab, Luxor and Aswan, those tourist fortresses... And unfortunately, the ones one will meet easily in those places, what hangs out in the coffee shops, bars and discos, bazaar staff and those on beaches, boats plus guiding day tours, ARE usually the 'old hands' at this - the decent ones employed in this industry either stay in their hotel with their friends, or when out they do not attempt to chat with strange women...
This is why, when only hanging out in one of the above towns, one can get the impression that it is ALL of them, meanwhile, one half (the good ones) are hiding.
Actually, I would put the percentage of really out and out money players at 5% or so - those are the ones with sheer profit as the aim - however, 75% of all else walking around the streets in tourist towns would NOT MIND this, too - so if they see a nice lady they like, they go for it with some true feelings but ALSO, and equally important, the great incentive of sexual freedom and PERHAPS many presents or cash, that thought is usually there...
(Which doesn't leave very many good ones walking around, but that is why I said look at where and how you met him, too, how often he goes out, and where to, what he does in his free time, who are his friends... And all the other things, too!!!).
As for Orfi, I respect that you yourself would not want this - however, I really think that Orfi is vieved in far less a strict light in those towns, more of a practical necessity than anything else with no meaning attached - no problem there, but this should be clear to both parties, is all!!
Also, it may be that I am wrong - but on the whole most European ladies DO want a sexual (plus loving, of course) relationship (unless she is very young or also Muslim), THEY do not see a problem, and guys just say it is different for Europeans, so why not (plus generally no man says no, right, hahaha), so again the importance of (unmarried) sex is much, much less and a totally different thing again to an Egyptian-Egyptian relationship. And for sex one needs an Orfi, unless he has access to someone's flat without mean Bawab...
Very glad you liked my writings, and Insha'Allah, your previous statement of 'no more broken hearts' after being warned and informed will come true in at least a few cases!!!
And to Samarra-Sono - no, sorry, did not make that clear - he got the total money from 3 ladies, but only ONE, the main cash giver, took him to court for a huge sum after he dumped her. One lady had withdrawn, there was no more contact, and No.3 was going to love him forever and ever, regardless of what he had done and the resulting prison sentence, because with her he CHANGED and was now a better man....
Well, this she said until the day I had to rescue her from small village in Nubia (and very adventurous it was) - after weeks of her with no mobile and no money, unable to go anywhere by herself - after he had first Orfi married her, then taken her to his family's home (who specially installed a shower for her) and left her there penniless under supervision while he went off to work elsewhere... (After which she stayed with me for a couple of months, until she had a new job and divorce).
And the men with the many Orfi wives, why don't they sue??? For starters, because most of them have no idea there is another, doooh... They DON'T know about each other, each believing she is the one and only. And even if they do find out about one other, he is allowed 4, right - so there would need to be FIVE of them, all with their Orfi certificates as proof, before they could take any action. In which case he quickly divorces one, so all is okay again - not as easy as it seems to sue a man for bigamy here!!!
To all others, many thanks for your nice, knowledgable input - and dear Martha, I shall attempt to answer your valid questions later, meshi???
posted
Dear Bubbles, thank you very much for give expression to what many women must feel and can`t put into words. For the greatest part I can agree with what you wrote, it is a describtion of the serious men and the abusers.Unnecessary to mention that of course, as everywhere, there are more variations possible.All people are unique in their own special way, and circumstances can be different as much as people are different. We are not living in a world that only exists in black or white. It isn`t that simple. And of course a man with bad intentions also may have good quality`s, he might have planned to suck you out and after using, leave you, but he can see it as his hnour to, while using, treat you good and give you a nice time. I`ve noticed that several times, like it gives them a sort of feeling as: I was good for her, I was sweet for her, so, it isn`t that bad... Afterwards it must be very confusing and in total contradistinction to each other.
Where I agree complete is the situation of the Egyptian women, and I feel very frustrated for them. The problem is, you can`t do anything to help them! They are left behind, completely depended on their cheating husbands. Even if they know that he is fooling around, what can she do, without money, and a bunch of children to take care for? There is no other option as to accept, and I know how frustrating it is for these women. I really,really feel much more sorry for them. Forced to live in an impossible situation, knowing that they are only good to take care of his children and his house. Bad husbands, and bad fathers...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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I absolutely agree with you on the situation of the Egyptian women - it really IS so totally frustrating to be stuck with a man like that, no way to get rid off him (cause then what do you do, how do you live, and can you take your children???) - it really must kill one!!!
I suppose sometimes such a wife COULD manage to force a divorce in her favour, IF she has proof of his behaviour, lies and messing around, and can convince the sheikh and his family (who will be just as outraged - but can they stop him???). But on the whole, women are between a rock and a hard place too often... One Egyptian girlfriend once said to me 'For Egyptian women it is best never to marry!' (she gave up a very good job in Kuwait for the lonely, highly supervised life with dominating, demanding husband and much regretted it), but then there are many, many others who think the system is great, the only question is to find a GOOD one, but of course everyone (initially) thinks their spouse is good... And when and if they find out differently, as you say, there is not much one can do in the way of help, seeing the husband can tell her who she talks to, where she goes to, what she does - and she is totally dependent on him -
incidentally, this reminds me of another sticking point for cross-cultural couples. Doesn't matter just how well educated and 'Western' / modern he appears in his approach, when it comes down to it, a man's honour is increased - or blown - by his WIFE. For that reason he may after wedding no longer tolerate things he tolerated before - such as the sudden checking through wardrobe, bikinis and lone beach visits are out now, no more coffees with friends, let alone male ones... Plus all those things he grew up to EXPECT as naturally as breathing from a wife, being listened to and followed, the submisive attitude, life centers around him, the always-being-there-for-him of wife blahblah, he WILL also expect from the European wife, in his eyes marriage is like that. There are some few who are prepared to learn new ways, and who are happy to make this into a 50-50 partnership, but generally speaking THAT is anathema to the nicest Egyptian, and will require a loooooooooot of effort and hard work.
Back to the women - yes, their situation is often terribly, terribly sad, I feel very bad for them, they just have to put up with whatever and swallow it, no other choice...
Which leads me to something Martha said, my first answer - question 'What about the Egyptian women who only marry to have a family and a home, is that better than those men?'. One really can't compare the two - MANY Egyptian women have no choice but to get married to SOMEONE. That is what they are brought up to do, to marry and have children - they often received no education (dependig on background again), but even if educated, may not be allowed to work later - I know of some girls who studied alright, but ONLY to meet a prospective good husband at uni, never to work - the whole idea is to propagate the family, and yes, have financial and emotional security and care from a man (who are in turn brought up to happily and honourably supply this).
Unless from a filthy rich, non-pushy family, an Egyptian woman MUST marry for her own good - so she tries to choose one who looks most promising as spouse material, and if the great love is not there, it will come, they hope... However, where this attitude differs from the lying men is, that for these women it is sheer NECESSITY - and also expected, common and normal - to make these decisions. And everybody knows what it's about, they don't need to tell lies. While for the men it is more than likely dissatisfaction with own situation, greed, wants, and, most important point, he LIES and DECEIVES to get it, whereas the women do not..
Greetings, Bubble The Wise (hahahahaha... Decided to call myself that after you are all so nice and complimentary to me).
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I think it`s one of the most negative aspects I know about living in an Egyptian family. One other aspect is the expectation to be loyal, EVEN when you have to lie and cheat. This is also an man-issue, because women don`t have to do this, they`re kept out of men-business. You say they never reveal each other, friends or family, more nasty is the expectation to join them in this, even when you know the other side is right. It gave me conscientious objections... and they were not seen as relevant. You simply have to deal with it...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by DawnBev: Then again, they are those who go on holiday without the intention of meeting up with someone, never been to Egypt before, its just an ordinary holiday, and never heard of these scams, and never expected anything like that to happen, and believed what the man was saying simply because they themselves would be honest and trustworthy and didnt know that this sort of thing goes on. So, it wouldnt have occured to them to look on the internet for such forums to find out any information. Do you see what I mean. Short of hanging use warning bill-boards at the airport, or the travel agents handing out leaflets when you book a holiday - this will happen to those unsuspecting ones. Unfortunately.
Problem here is there is alot of talk such as on this thread, but of an opposite nature in everyday UK and European life.
You can imagine how western usernames go on a blue streak here about their egy-guys being "different".
Now put that in a water cooler context, and wahlah the best tourism advertisment Egypt could have.
I wouldn't doubt that 2/3 of all single UK and European traveling alone or with a package tour have heard of this "sex tourism" before booking their flight. They know what they are up to, just they feign innocence.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Samarra_Anissa: I wouldn't doubt that 2/3 of all single UK and European traveling alone or with a package tour have heard of this "sex tourism" before booking their flight. They know what they are up to, just they feign innocence.
Do you seriously think that European tourists wouldn't find easier places in the world to have sex on the beach than in an Islamic country?
Anyway, most of the tourists who are coming to Egypt come as couples and families.
Welcome to the real world!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Samarra_Anissa: I wouldn't doubt that 2/3 of all single UK and European traveling alone or with a package tour have heard of this "sex tourism" before booking their flight. They know what they are up to, just they feign innocence.
Do you seriously think that European tourists wouldn't find easier places in the world to have sex on the beach than in an Islamic country?
Anyway, most of the tourists who are coming to Egypt come as couples and families.
Welcome to the real world!
Just because Egypt is a pious country, Coptic and Muslim doesn't mean that foreign tourists behave themselves accordingly. ES and many other Egypt websites/forums prove that.
Egypt is well know as the easiest place to get laid in all of Middle East & North Africa. No one can dispute that. Hmmm... Got any stats from the Egyptian government to prove otherwise?
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Do you seriously think that European tourists wouldn't find easier places in the world to have sex on the beach than in an Islamic country?
Thank you!
I've always wanted to go to Egypt since I was in grade school and learned about the pyramids in history class. It all seemed so wonderful to me as a child and I told myself one day I was going to go there. Never did the thought occur to me to go visit for anything else!
Posts: 21 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Samarra_Anissa: Egypt is well know as the easiest place to get laid in all of Middle East & North Africa. No one can dispute that. Hmmm... Got any stats from the Egyptian government to prove otherwise?
Think about all the sex business which is going on among Arabs. Arabs from rich countries are coming to Egypt to enjoy themselves with poor young girls (maybe even still half children) which got offered up by their parents for some cash, they make an orfi-marriage, they bang and then she gets dropped.
Or they coming to enjoy themselves with paid prostitutes and remember also Egypt is THE hot spot for Arab gays to meet and to spend some good time together. Prostitution is a huge issue in Egypt but it's not openly discussed it's haram yani, like other things, people live in denial.
Don't always point your fingers at Western women; there is so much more going on in Egypt - but I guess that's what you don't want to focus on ......
And please, you must be kidding, you are asking stats about Egypt from ME? What am I, working for the secret service?! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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You said are I am pleased now, ": ) sure not how can I be??? ) No I need you to keep writing and we all learn from you.
Bubble when I was told about the site, I just came to see what that? But was never going to even sign in no interest and also do not have time and I start reading what kind of topic was their? That got my interest. So I sign in and start sharing my thoughts and I was disappointed some time because ladies are crying about how they are getting broking heart and another topic a lady asking what is the price now for Orfi? I heard it get more expensive. And I was like what that? They can not see where they are going? They can not read the other stories and how ladies get hurts.
Pleased keep going and it is really interesting to read your thoughts and really I can say it is 95 % correct. Some disagree for sure but not a lot.
My disagree are:
1. Egyptian lady again depend on their community and which society they raise on it is impact their life, so their high % they are 50 -50 relation and that you can find in all big city such as Cairo, Alexandria ETC... for sure the education level also have big impact But as much you go south sure they are really as you describe. But now by low she can go to court and make khola "hope I wrote it correct" and she get divorce and just pay him what is stated on the marriage certificate? And the kids, boys stay with their mom tell age 12 and girls tell 15 " I think that is correct age" and during that time she get the house and also monthly payment and that grantee by low. Ladies in Egypt really are very strong and not weak as they look like. Sure again not in general. But they play the smart game and always show her man he is the loin of the jungle but the true she run the show: I can say my society and community are not poor and I have young kudos "family and friends kids" around me and I ask them why you do not work? The answer was why? I get my self nice man and I enjoy my life and he work and take care of all... they are well educated and graduated from AUC so it is not the family or the man problems, no it is the some young generation vision for their future. Why she works when she have a made at the house do all for her and she just enjoy what ever she like all day I WILL GO FOR MEN RIGHT IN EGYPT 2. Egyptian man "poor one " her again how they was raise? We rise to take care of family and do what ever take us to provide the bread, security and safety for the family and it is not the women job if she work and help fine but no force that is the man goal of life and job . And we can not just go and forget about our responsibilities. So the Egyptian man rises with heavy weight on his shoulder and he has to keep going. The Egyptian man are will known they love their kids to death and that where the old says come from " any mother in low tell her daughter make sure to get him kids immediately so he is hocked for ever and no way to go any where " so Egyptian ladies believe since she got him a kids, she done and no need to take care of him and or even thinks of his needs most important make sure she put more weight on his shoulder and wipe his money so no chance he can go any where? Just make sure he has nice house and always good food…. And that when the marriage problem start. So he become as car wheel keep going and his entire goal to take care of his family. Sure that in general and sure we are not angel their always bad apple
You talked about the guys on the tourist areas why they do that? I can go back to economy situation unemployment and also they come out from society where they may never saw a woman before ? to that nice pretty white western ladies laying on the beach, so they feel they are in the parades and please also looks to the age of the western ladies age the one face the problems they above 40 and he is 20 years old young dark skin, brown eyes tell her good words and take care of her tell she is hocked than she is melting in love and it is business contract you get my youth and I get your money but not written contracts. For sure I am not making any justification for what going on no way? Just always any problems have two sides so I open also the second side. You can read some topic with all every one her said, they still thinking of Orfi and never care. So the problems have two parts not one only
Why the western Ladies fall in love with Egyptian man? 1. different culture 2. different looks with my travel a lot found the white like the dark skin, the dark skin like the blonde no one satisfy with what he or she have? 3. He always show her care and love 4. Egyptian great in words : 5. Listen very well 6. Very worms feeling
That what and more western ladies miss? And I think that where the sparkling of love start. Because they needs also love and worm relation. And same time Egyptian man need a lady that really always show him love and worm relation and that where both find in each other what they miss and nothing wrong on that…. And that normal relation not the one at the resorts
I will be honest with you, I travel a lot and meet and know lots of ladies from USA and Europe and came out of one conclusion they fight for years to have equal with male and they gut it. But what happen? The male turn to a relation of 30% for the man and 70 % for women and the man like the new situation but the western women no longer like that they need a shoulder and some one to take care of. So her man from the east the man of the 50's and 60's "40 years back before the equality" in the western so they like that and go back and enjoy the life of some one really take care.
Last yes man never says no )) and will run after any female at any time and do what ever take them to be with…… but the real man always will say NO because if he respect him self and also his buddy not for sale, to me the man always say yes " he is not more than an animal and not worse any kind of respect" NO it is great words and all will be nice and great with real love and pure feeling not by paying for it. No one can buy feelings they can buy minutes but will never have any feelings.
Bubble you really have great thoughts and special when it comes from western lady that leave in Egypt for a while. So keep going Posts: 233 | From: Cairo | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Bubbleperson, thanks for addressing one of my questions, and saying you would talk about the others later.
Don't get me wrong, I know their are gigilos in Egypt and all over the world. And I do appreciate the warnings. These kinds of things do need to be talked about. It just seems that this site only focusses on this aspect of life.
Believe me, I know what it's like to be poor and desperate, so maybe I have a different view on things than some people.
And I do respect the Egyptian way of life, religious, traditional and moral. It's part of it's charm. I've rarely seen it in American life. where it is genuine. I'm not saying it's not here. I'm saying I haven't seen too much of it.
I love Egypt and the people there. When I was there, everyone was warm and friendly to me. Even so much more than here at home. And I loved it, wish I could be there to enjoy it everyday of my life.
Posts: 58 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hoppe thiss finds you well, finally I am getting around to writing again... Sorry for the delay!!
Now to your questions - but please do bear in mind this is only how I see it, this is not the gospel truth in every case, naturally!!!
OF COURSE an Egyptian, as any man, may fall in love with someone not so beautiful /stunning /super young - inner values count, of course. No, they are not all 'shallow' regarding this issue - as you say, beauty is a personal thing, ca...
As for the 'older woman' being rejected by her society, or any society, no, I don't think so - again, this is a subject one shouldn't generalise - depends on the older woman, what she wants, her attitude, how she gives herself, how much she goes with life, and also on her surroundings - how many chaps of suitable age are available there, where and how does one meet them... But to say it is society's 'rejection', so these women have no choice but to go elsewhere in desperation, that would be really too sad and is wrong, too, in my opinion. Yes, it often happens thst a lady just goes somewhere and then unexpectedly meets someone and falls in love - ONLY that in this case (Egy) she MUST be aware of all the added difficulties, ie. culture, religion, different expectations - and if there is a vast age difference (20 years or even more) than she definitely must ask herself whether this could EVER really have a future, never mind the ones who want a better life...
Meaning, if she is 45 and he 25, NOW this may be fine, they can get on, understand each other and be happy - but how will this be in 20 years time, when the age difference will be much more obvious??? What about if in 20 years time he definitely still wants to have children and she can't??? WOULD one be happy for him to marry a 2nd wife to get children, would one tolerate or understand that??? That IS an important consideration, Arabic men will rarely forego the chance to have children forever - and as we all know, men CAN father kids even in their ripe old age..
As for the divorcee issue, with kids already - no, to some men this won't matter so much, divorcees also remarry in Egypt - but then commonly another divorcee of same age, NOT a younger man never married. Neither he nor his family will ultimately be too keen on that - so here again one has to be aware that things like better financial standing WILL be a great incentive, on top of true feelings, which may make him 'swallow' the drawbacks more - but an older, divorced woman is simply not the first choice of any Egyptian family, I'd consider it absolutely unusual that this is nothing but true love - other factors DO come into the equation there...
And the family being happy with one - again, how can one generalise... No, I don't believe that many families play along just for money or a better life (certainly not if the woman is as old as the mother or older), but Egyptians are awfully hospitable and kind, the guest is king in that culture and has to be treated good. AND they may genuinely like the woman, however, is that the same as them liking her as a d-i-l??? Just know that you as an outsider not speaking the language will not see all the inner turmoil, not be told all the real feelings and difficulties, and not know what he is told when you are not there, what pressures are put on him... So you'd have to speak openly with him a lot, learn the language and give it time to get a better feeling for what the real situation is... To think after a first, positive visit that all is well might lead to false hopes and disappointments, sadly...
Please do read what MK wrote - it may sound harsh, and there may be exceptions, but she as an Egyptian lady certainly knows the norms and expectations of her people... And while she also won't be able to say that each and every case always works out like this and that, her points are most important to take on board, since the truth about general Egyptian thinking (many thanks, dear MK, for that thoughtful, informative post!!!).
Is there anything in particular you are worried about??? What is your situation, if you don't mind telling??? And whatever it is, do not be totally put off or suspicious now after all this, WE don't know, and yes, all people are different - but do please be aware of those major problems and differences, and of what is going on, with time you can then judge our own situation easier, I hope - just don't rush into anything, is what I would advise anyone!!!
All the best to you, hope this helped a little, Bubble
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Samarra_Anissa: Egypt is well know as the easiest place to get laid in all of Middle East & North Africa. No one can dispute that. Hmmm... Got any stats from the Egyptian government to prove otherwise?
Think about all the sex business which is going on among Arabs. Arabs from rich countries are coming to Egypt to enjoy themselves with poor young girls (maybe even still half children) which got offered up by their parents for some cash, they make an orfi-marriage, they bang and then she gets dropped.
Or they coming to enjoy themselves with paid prostitutes and remember also Egypt is THE hot spot for Arab gays to meet and to spend some good time together. Prostitution is a huge issue in Egypt but it's not openly discussed it's haram yani, like other things, people live in denial.
Don't always point your fingers at Western women; there is so much more going on in Egypt - but I guess that's what you don't want to focus on ......
And please, you must be kidding, you are asking stats about Egypt from ME? What am I, working for the secret service?!
This thread started about western women and Egyptian guys. You are the one who brought up Arab guys with Egyptian prostitutes or Summer wives, not I not Bubblesperson.
If you want to start yet another thread on the subject of Arab guys and Egyptian summer wives then go ahead.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by DawnBev: Then again, they are those who go on holiday without the intention of meeting up with someone, never been to Egypt before, its just an ordinary holiday, and never heard of these scams, and never expected anything like that to happen, and believed what the man was saying simply because they themselves would be honest and trustworthy and didnt know that this sort of thing goes on. So, it wouldnt have occured to them to look on the internet for such forums to find out any information. Do you see what I mean. Short of hanging use warning bill-boards at the airport, or the travel agents handing out leaflets when you book a holiday - this will happen to those unsuspecting ones. Unfortunately.
Totally agree with you DawnBev Posts: 1244 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Nov 2006
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Samarra-Sono asked for stats on the most easy free sex in the ME -I don't think there are any, hahaha... All I can tell you that upon a bored winter's night I checked out a few different forums (fori??? What's the Latin plural, anyone know??) in three languages, too, and the MOST stories and complaints I found were about TUNISIA - mainly Djerba and Agadir - and the whole TURKISH coastline, all tourist resorts...
Morocco and even Algeria featured, too, and then we get to really far away - Gambia, Kenya, Nigeria, all the Caribbean Islands....
There you have it, wherever there is dreadful poverty and good-looking young men working in jobs where they meet Western females with ready cash travelling without a male, the opportunity to get closer is taken and sometimes it does not work out - or worse, it is then recognised as a 'business' idea on the part of the man (and this very much so by the looks of it in Tunisia and Turkey, ha!!! Noooo, our beloved Egypt is not 1st place here!!!).
Miss Sharm - hope you are feeling alright!!! -and DawnBev again, I totally agree, and that just is the saddest part of all - women may never expect this, not have heard of bad stories, be bowled over by the whole wonderful country, friendly, warm people, then meet a lovely, charming young fellow throwing around compliments and believe everything he may say, and before they know it, big heartache and/or worse trouble...
I certainly agree though that MANY women travel to Egy or elsewhere in the ME, never thinking for a minute of love, attachments, or even just sex.
Greetings to all, Bubble
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Bubbleperson - I am feeling fine, in fact I am feeling very, very happy because it is only 3 weeks and I will be with a very special person to welcome in the New Year together and who knows what might happen
Amanda x x
Posts: 1244 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Nov 2006
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-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Bubblesperson: Dear Martha!!!
Hoppe thiss finds you well, finally I am getting around to writing again... Sorry for the delay!!
Now to your questions - but please do bear in mind this is only how I see it, this is not the gospel truth in every case, naturally!!!
OF COURSE an Egyptian, as any man, may fall in love with someone not so beautiful /stunning /super young - inner values count, of course. No, they are not all 'shallow' regarding this issue - as you say, beauty is a personal thing, ca...
As for the 'older woman' being rejected by her society, or any society, no, I don't think so - again, this is a subject one shouldn't generalise - depends on the older woman, what she wants, her attitude, how she gives herself, how much she goes with life, and also on her surroundings - how many chaps of suitable age are available there, where and how does one meet them... But to say it is society's 'rejection', so these women have no choice but to go elsewhere in desperation, that would be really too sad and is wrong, too, in my opinion. Yes, it often happens thst a lady just goes somewhere and then unexpectedly meets someone and falls in love - ONLY that in this case (Egy) she MUST be aware of all the added difficulties, ie. culture, religion, different expectations - and if there is a vast age difference (20 years or even more) than she definitely must ask herself whether this could EVER really have a future, never mind the ones who want a better life...
Meaning, if she is 45 and he 25, NOW this may be fine, they can get on, understand each other and be happy - but how will this be in 20 years time, when the age difference will be much more obvious??? What about if in 20 years time he definitely still wants to have children and she can't??? WOULD one be happy for him to marry a 2nd wife to get children, would one tolerate or understand that??? That IS an important consideration, Arabic men will rarely forego the chance to have children forever - and as we all know, men CAN father kids even in their ripe old age..
As for the divorcee issue, with kids already - no, to some men this won't matter so much, divorcees also remarry in Egypt - but then commonly another divorcee of same age, NOT a younger man never married. Neither he nor his family will ultimately be too keen on that - so here again one has to be aware that things like better financial standing WILL be a great incentive, on top of true feelings, which may make him 'swallow' the drawbacks more - but an older, divorced woman is simply not the first choice of any Egyptian family, I'd consider it absolutely unusual that this is nothing but true love - other factors DO come into the equation there...
And the family being happy with one - again, how can one generalise... No, I don't believe that many families play along just for money or a better life (certainly not if the woman is as old as the mother or older), but Egyptians are awfully hospitable and kind, the guest is king in that culture and has to be treated good. AND they may genuinely like the woman, however, is that the same as them liking her as a d-i-l??? Just know that you as an outsider not speaking the language will not see all the inner turmoil, not be told all the real feelings and difficulties, and not know what he is told when you are not there, what pressures are put on him... So you'd have to speak openly with him a lot, learn the language and give it time to get a better feeling for what the real situation is... To think after a first, positive visit that all is well might lead to false hopes and disappointments, sadly...
Please do read what MK wrote - it may sound harsh, and there may be exceptions, but she as an Egyptian lady certainly knows the norms and expectations of her people... And while she also won't be able to say that each and every case always works out like this and that, her points are most important to take on board, since the truth about general Egyptian thinking (many thanks, dear MK, for that thoughtful, informative post!!!).
Is there anything in particular you are worried about??? What is your situation, if you don't mind telling??? And whatever it is, do not be totally put off or suspicious now after all this, WE don't know, and yes, all people are different - but do please be aware of those major problems and differences, and of what is going on, with time you can then judge our own situation easier, I hope - just don't rush into anything, is what I would advise anyone!!!
All the best to you, hope this helped a little, Bubble
Dear Bubbleperson,
Thank you for your kind replies. You were informative and sensitive. A rare thing here on ES. I appreciate it so much.
As to my personal situation I will not share it. Because usually on the forum when I've asked questions seeking advice or just trying to have a friendly thread for people to share. I get cut up and abused. So, no thanks.
However this is why I so much appreciate your style of addressing my questions without condemning me.
I do not relish the thought of my personal life being bandied about and used to hurt me as I see others doing on this forum. It's so cruel. No matter how much they seem to hate each other.
Many of my questions were in response to many months of reading these posts and hearing the same old cruel things said about Western women and Egyptian men.
Sure, most of it's probably true. As it is all over the world how men and women use each other, no mattter what country they are from.
Sometimes it's just so disgusting to hear so much negativity.
On this forum, I've heard the Western women who visit as tourists, described as fat, old, ugly pigs desperately looking for love anywhere they can get it. And it makes me angry.
I think people deserve more respect than that. I guess I just get tired of the unbelievable cruelty. And at times I am shocked at the coldness and bad attitudes towards other people.
Posts: 58 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
An excellent post. If only tourists could read this before they got off the plane at Hurghada, Luxor or Sharm. It is too easy to get married with an orfy contract in Egypt. If they made it more difficult to get married here, so that people had time to think, it would save a lot of heartache and a lot of money for many women. All of this is not helping the image of tourist industry in Egypt in the long term. There are more and more report in the media of what happens here now.
Posts: 588 | From: an oasis near the pyramids | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by martha: Dear Bubbleperson,
Thank you for your kind replies. You were informative and sensitive. A rare thing here on ES. I appreciate it so much.
As to my personal situation I will not share it. Because usually on the forum when I've asked questions seeking advice or just trying to have a friendly thread for people to share. I get cut up and abused. So, no thanks.
However this is why I so much appreciate your style of addressing my questions without condemning me.
I do not relish the thought of my personal life being bandied about and used to hurt me as I see others doing on this forum. It's so cruel. No matter how much they seem to hate each other.
Many of my questions were in response to many months of reading these posts and hearing the same old cruel things said about Western women and Egyptian men.
Sure, most of it's probably true. As it is all over the world how men and women use each other, no mattter what country they are from.
Sometimes it's just so disgusting to hear so much negativity.
On this forum, I've heard the Western women who visit as tourists, described as fat, old, ugly pigs desperately looking for love anywhere they can get it. And it makes me angry.
I think people deserve more respect than that. I guess I just get tired of the unbelievable cruelty. And at times I am shocked at the coldness and bad attitudes towards other people.
Martha don't take this the wrong way.....
But any tourist who decides to have sex on the fly even with an orfi paper must have a slight nudging feeling that in a pious country such as Egypt, the sex paper marriage is more than likely considered as wrong.
Anybody with an iota of scrupples and common sense would know that this type of sex paper is wrong in their own country and more than likely wrong in Egypt.
Its obvious that most of these female foreign tourists just don't care. More than likely know about the sex tourism trade and orfi in advance, even understand that is looked down upon in Egypt in advance.
By the way I noticed in your post above and most posts in regards to this thread didn't bother to reflect on whether this Orfi practice is right or wrong, its a embarassment to Egypt, that its not socially acceptable practice in Egypt......
Martha you reflect in this thread as if this affects no one other than you and the Egyptian guys who profit from this.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
Thank you for your kind replies to me - I fully understand that you do not to open yourself up to abuse or unfair 'judgment' here and so wish to keep quiet... Glad to hear you love Egypt and her people, I do, too - and that is the most important thing, right!!!
Should any of the other issues discussed here ever apply, one just needs to tread careful, slowly, and not forget common sense, though that may be real hard sometimes...
Samarra-Sono, I am sorry, but I disagree with your post to Martha. Reason being that I lived (full time) in Egypt for 2 years already, near enough (3 different places) before I ever found out in what light Orfi is viewed - what it means - or how often this happens... Then again, I had no reason to find out since not personally affected, and none of my Egy friends or briefly visiting ladies I met spoke about the subject. (So, if I LIVING and working there was not clued up, how to expect a tourist to be when she is told something by a local guy, naturally she will believe him!!!).
Fact just is, that Orfi has become sooooooo common - much to the dismay of guys like Ahly - in these tourist resorts, and that it IS presented as a fully accepted, LOCAL, and legal thing to do which may or may not later on lead to the real thing, ie. the international proper marriage, that most women have NO IDEA (other than those really serious lover-hunter-visitors who come a couple of times a year for many years, and these are not very many) that Orfi is a bad thing. How could it be, when they are told that the law of the land requires it, that one needs a lawyer (that males it sound terribly official, no??), and that all couples wishing to marry need to do this??? PLUS nearly all the guys there will have an Orfi wife and talk about her proudly and introduce her as a proper wife, behave loving, protective and serious, so how can a lady not super-well informed about all the in's and out's know Orfi is bad???
She will only know if she has spent A LOT of time there, also mixing in the circles where this goes on (I note again that I in my situation never had a reason to find out, so could not have advised a lady correctly despite living there...) OR if she informs herself before travelling on a forum such as this where these things are discussed. THEN she will know that it is not generally viewed faourably in Egypt - but I have to tell you the same thing I told Ahly, in those towns there is SO MUCH OF IT and everybody does it, that THERE it is viewed quite differently, mainly as a necessity if people want to spend time together alone and get to know each other, not as a bad thing, definitely NOT as a 'sex paper' - that's just how it has become now.
Blaming the women for ignorance of something they can't possibly know, is not fair... None of that 'more than likely they know about sex tourism and Orfi in advance' as you say, no way - from my experience practically all ladies who are asked to marry Orfi are very flattered indeed and DO think it means the real thing!!! (That's what they are told by all and sundry, and in the beginning it may actually be meant so by many guys, too..).
It is ONLY the well experienced travellers, females like the one with two husbands I described in the post above, who know full well it is a 'sex paper' and means nothing...
I wonder whether YOU would have known had you first come to Egypt just as a visitor with no connections there... After all, guide books do NOT elaborate on this, so please do not be so unfairly judgmental...
Oh, dear ???? many thanks for the Latin grammar explanation!!! Now I know!!!
posted
You know, the trouble is, that most women don`t have another possibility to verify what them is being told. Most of the time they have no reason to assume about what their lovers are telling them.And even IF they have a reliable person behind them : Egyptian men don`t like to tell how bad their "brothers" can be.So, they shall try to keep her away from the danger, without telling why! And what shall a Western women do with that kind of vagueness??? So, it`s very important that the world knows what can happen, and that people are being warned. This is not an Egyptian matter, it is the same in all 2nd and 3rd world countries. And don`t forget that religion is an extra added issue. Because laws are based on religious rules, it even gets more difficult, because most women don`t know anything about it. Women can lose all they have, when the guy plays it right. The main position of women is generally below the man. In Western countries there is difference, but not as much as in Islamic countries. Women have to get informed before they take steps to any official action.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: This is not an Egyptian matter, it is the same in all 2nd and 3rd world countries.
I agree. I have a friend who just got totally used and dumped by a guy she met on vacation in the Dominican Republic. She married him, went through the visa process, brought him to the States, where he promptly left and went to join his friends in another state. I assume she can get him deported for this, but the difference in the guy was night and day. All loving and *I miss you so much*, until after he got off the plane.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Just wanted to say I am very happy that you are feeling good and happy - and are looking forward to New Year!! Woohoo, sounds exciting, let's hope all your dreams come true... Best wishes, Bubble
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by martha: Dear Bubbleperson,
Thank you for your kind replies. You were informative and sensitive. A rare thing here on ES. I appreciate it so much.
As to my personal situation I will not share it. Because usually on the forum when I've asked questions seeking advice or just trying to have a friendly thread for people to share. I get cut up and abused. So, no thanks.
However this is why I so much appreciate your style of addressing my questions without condemning me.
I do not relish the thought of my personal life being bandied about and used to hurt me as I see others doing on this forum. It's so cruel. No matter how much they seem to hate each other.
Many of my questions were in response to many months of reading these posts and hearing the same old cruel things said about Western women and Egyptian men.
Sure, most of it's probably true. As it is all over the world how men and women use each other, no mattter what country they are from.
Sometimes it's just so disgusting to hear so much negativity.
On this forum, I've heard the Western women who visit as tourists, described as fat, old, ugly pigs desperately looking for love anywhere they can get it. And it makes me angry.
I think people deserve more respect than that. I guess I just get tired of the unbelievable cruelty. And at times I am shocked at the coldness and bad attitudes towards other people.
Martha don't take this the wrong way.....
But any tourist who decides to have sex on the fly even with an orfi paper must have a slight nudging feeling that in a pious country such as Egypt, the sex paper marriage is more than likely considered as wrong.
Anybody with an iota of scrupples and common sense would know that this type of sex paper is wrong in their own country and more than likely wrong in Egypt.
Its obvious that most of these female foreign tourists just don't care. More than likely know about the sex tourism trade and orfi in advance, even understand that is looked down upon in Egypt in advance.
If they don't care and are only out to get sex, why bother warning them about gigilos and let them get what they deserve?
By the way I noticed in your post above and most posts in regards to this thread didn't bother to reflect on whether this Orfi practice is right or wrong, its a embarassment to Egypt, that its not socially acceptable practice in Egypt......
I don't know if it's right or wrong. I suppose it depends on who is doing it whether it is right or wrong to them. A personal choice. Just like anything else. I personally would feel it would be wrong for me.
Martha you reflect in this thread as if this affects no one other than you and the Egyptian guys who profit from this.
It doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever. I'm not Orfi married. But I feel adults when given a legal choice to do something have the right to do it if it's their desire to do so. They know their own religious and personal values. It's up to them to make the choices that will let them live with their own conscience.
Posts: 58 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by martha: Dear Bubbleperson,
Thank you for your kind replies. You were informative and sensitive. A rare thing here on ES. I appreciate it so much.
As to my personal situation I will not share it. Because usually on the forum when I've asked questions seeking advice or just trying to have a friendly thread for people to share. I get cut up and abused. So, no thanks.
However this is why I so much appreciate your style of addressing my questions without condemning me.
I do not relish the thought of my personal life being bandied about and used to hurt me as I see others doing on this forum. It's so cruel. No matter how much they seem to hate each other.
Many of my questions were in response to many months of reading these posts and hearing the same old cruel things said about Western women and Egyptian men.
Sure, most of it's probably true. As it is all over the world how men and women use each other, no mattter what country they are from.
Sometimes it's just so disgusting to hear so much negativity.
On this forum, I've heard the Western women who visit as tourists, described as fat, old, ugly pigs desperately looking for love anywhere they can get it. And it makes me angry.
I think people deserve more respect than that. I guess I just get tired of the unbelievable cruelty. And at times I am shocked at the coldness and bad attitudes towards other people.
Martha don't take this the wrong way.....
But any tourist who decides to have sex on the fly even with an orfi paper must have a slight nudging feeling that in a pious country such as Egypt, the sex paper marriage is more than likely considered as wrong.
Anybody with an iota of scrupples and common sense would know that this type of sex paper is wrong in their own country and more than likely wrong in Egypt.
Its obvious that most of these female foreign tourists just don't care. More than likely know about the sex tourism trade and orfi in advance, even understand that is looked down upon in Egypt in advance.
If they don't care and are only out to get sex, why bother warning them about gigilos and let them get what they deserve?
By the way I noticed in your post above and most posts in regards to this thread didn't bother to reflect on whether this Orfi practice is right or wrong, its a embarassment to Egypt, that its not socially acceptable practice in Egypt......
I don't know if it's right or wrong. I suppose it depends on who is doing it whether it is right or wrong to them. A personal choice. Just like anything else. I personally would feel it would be wrong for me.
Martha you reflect in this thread as if this affects no one other than you and the Egyptian guys who profit from this.
It doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever. I'm not Orfi married. But I feel adults when given a legal choice to do something have the right to do it if it's their desire to do so. They know their own religious and personal values. It's up to them to make the choices that will let them live with their own conscience.
If you aren't Orfi married, once were orfi married or planning to be orfi married then you wouldn't be defending this public nuisance!
Just because something is legal doesn't mean its the right thing to do, and that it won't affect a wider community.
And its real easy to get married and walk away with an orfi contract. Just never re-enter Egypt.
But for foreign women who will and must be in Egypt they face the consequences for other foreign female tourist immoral behavior.
To carry on in such an immoral compacity shows a lack of respect for yourself, for your own nation/culture, for Egypt and its cultural constructs and for the institution of marriage itself.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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Now why do you keep having a go at Martha, of all people, about Orfi?!?!?! She never said it is good or bad, just that adults are free to do as they choose, which most others would agree with...
You have made it perfectly clear now that Orfi in your opinion is immoral and shows no respect for anyone, including self - and so??? What are you going to do about it???
Again I must tell you to rant HERE about foreign women entering Orfi giving all foreigners living there a bad name is just not on, since nonsense!!! And unfair... They DON'T know it is bad, are never told so by anyone they meet, INCLUDING the lawyer (!!!) at whose offices this contract is signed - how could they possibly know it is such a disgusting thing to do??? Most often they are told it is the Islamic-Egyptian thing to do, different laws, different state religion, how is believing this disrespect for one's nation?!?!?! (Let alone 'the institution of marriage', my, my...). They think this is how it is done in Egypt, simple!!!
IF you wish for your warnings to have any positive effect whatsever, I suggest you head to Hurghada, Sharm or Luxor in a hurry, hang out in a few coffee shops and tell the ladies on holiday there, better still, come armed with flyers and print-out's. That way you could do some REAL good and really make a difference, doubtless some women would be very happy to be so informed - and saved from disaster - by you!!! You would be doing a good and much needed service, so what's keeping you??? You are in Egypt, are you not, free to get on with this selfless mission??
As for your statement that due to this 'immoral behaviour' all other foreign women have to face dire consequences, what nonsense again - no, sorry, I can't say that, perhaps you have been propositioned or accosted by some cheeky chap - but again I repeat I lived there fulltime for nearly 2 years before I really heard about Orfi, and in all that time (come to think of it, ALL the time I lived there, 5 years, and even the last few months that I am coming and going) I have NOT had one rude proposal, been touched or something else nor have I ever been treated with anything other than respect, kindess and courtesy - and that even on the Red Sea!!!!
Guess it all very much depends on how one oneself interacts and behaves... So, what are things like where you live in the country???
posted
PS. Alternatively, take it up with the government - while this sort of thing is allowed, and even properly legal in cases where all conditions have been followed, it WILL go on - because the men will keep suggesting it to those who do not know better, so that is really where the change needs to come from....
Posts: 144 | From: Egypt/Europe | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I think the Orfi now is so clear for all, lets me tell you something, marriage in our culture and does not matter Muslim or Coptic, is making two big families come together with marriage pond and they become one big family…so usually any marriage does not matter where the contract was written at the mosque or at the church or at the official government office, both family, friends and relative from both side come together in a wedding party every one are happy and celebrate the wedding….
But when you have Orfi always you, him and two strangers form both of you, that can tell you there is something wrong. And he is shamed to make you meet his family and friends, do you think he do respect you when he marry you Orfi? Think why your both marriage are secret from his family and friends? Why he do not celebrate you both marriage with all friends and family even ask you to invite some of your family to come over and attendee the wedding party?
You may say I love him and that are his culture and religion no all what you do her just justifying his behavior, ok you love him and do all for him? DOES HE REAL LOVE YOU? LOVES MEANS RESPECT, IF NO RESPECT THERE IS NO LOVE and it matter of time tell every one find the true…. Hope no one get hurt of that lies that guys make on you ladies and you have to stop believing what they said just in name of love…
Posts: 233 | From: Cairo | Registered: Dec 2006
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