We see that Asiatic enemies were already in Kmt during the 12th dyansty. The Delta was less populated than the Southern region around Luxor,Aswan,and other areas. The mass populations living in the Delta were Asiatic foreginers,and paved the way for the Hykos,or Heku-wase to invade.

http://www.touregypt.net/teachingformerikare.htm

and when they took men-nefer, they left kemite traditions, including calling their leader per-aa, though i don't think they took kemite names. so they may have considered themselves kemite the whole time, though i don't know enough to say for sure.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I wonder what their motivations were for attacking. I would think that area might have been heavily patrolled by gov't officials seeing as how it was such an important sea trading location. perhaps the asians in the area were used as low paid laborers in the trading industry???

---

From what we know there were no major battles and little resistance(in lower Egypt atleast) to te Hyksos rise to power which leads some historians to speculate that they were a tribe or ethnic group that had been living in the Delta for quite some time before seizing power. Some of the Egyptian per aa's continued to reign over certain regions of Egypt while the Hyksos controlled the Delta. It is unknown why the Egyptians drove the Hyksos out after about 200 years but it appears that their rule was welcomed by the Egyptians throughout most of their stay.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun:
From what we know there were no major battles and little resistance(in lower Egypt atleast) to te Hyksos rise to power which leads some historians to speculate that they were a tribe or ethnic group that had been living in the Delta for quite some time before seizing power. Some of the Egyptian per aa's continued to reign over certain regions of Egypt while the Hyksos controlled the Delta. It is unknown why the Egyptians drove the Hyksos out after about 200 years but it appears that their rule was welcomed by the Egyptians throughout most of their stay.

---

Yes,and this was the wasetan[Theban],who during the Intermediate period tried to break off on their own. The land of Kmt was divided into different nomes,and sometimes even within the country there was power struggle.

It is undeniable that Heku-wase ruled from the Delta to Men-nefer and popujlated this area. As I pointed out,the Delta was the least populated during the 12th dyansty,and the bulk of the population lived from Fayium and Medium and Luxor and Aswan. Middle Egypt was like a buffer zone.

''It is unknown why the Egyptians drove the Hyksos out after about 200 years but it appears that their rule was welcomed by the Egyptians throughout most of their stay''

I don't think so. If you read the Teachings of Merikare you will notice that they called the Asiatic tribes in the Delta region ''wrecthed''. The people complain about them moving into their region. The instriptions of a temple in Waset even states that the Hykos were barbarians ''not knowing Re''.

We also have the skull of sequenere Tao who has hole in it from a deadly blow. If the Kemetians[Egyptians] in Ta-Mehu[Lower Kmt],and Ta-Shemu[Upper Kmt] welcomed the Heku wase,then why does Sequenere Tao have blows to the head.

Well,it is assumed they came from around the Syro-Palestinean region. I don't know what this region was like during this time,but it is still a mystery just exactly who the Heku-Wase were. I read an abstract from Larry Angel,bio-anthropologist,and he claims they were Iranian types. Josephus seems to indeity the exodus tradition of the Hibiru with the Hykos invasion,so it it is a mystery.

''and when they took men-nefer, they left kemite traditions, including calling their leader per-aa, though i don't think they took kemite names''

All foreginers did from the Persians to the Macedonians. Most adapted Egyptian traditions,but many times kept their names.

''so they may have considered themselves kemite the whole time, though i don't know enough to say for sure.''

No,they considered themselves to be foreigners,and so did the Egyptians

''I wonder what their motivations were for attacking.''

Could be because of Senworset I violent attacks on Asaitic countries. He often bragged that he was the thorat silliter of Asia,and wrote texts describing him as such. During this time period we see names of Syrian slaves in the house of Waset.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
''It is unknown why the Egyptians drove the Hyksos out after about 200 years but it appears that their rule was welcomed by the Egyptians throughout most of their stay''

I don't think so. If you read the Teachings of Merikare you will notice that they called the Asiatic tribes in the Delta region ''wrecthed''. The people complain about them moving into their region. The instriptions of a temple in Waset even states that the Hykos were barbarians ''not knowing Re''.

---

Even though the Egyptians were very xenophobic, Asiatics had been migrating into the Delta region for many centuries at the time when the Hyksos rule began, which is why it makes sense that they faced little resistance when they took control. Also, by the time the New Kingdom began, there had been a drastic increase in the number of high-ranking Egyptians with Asiatic names. The Hyksos may have very possibly taken power politically rather than militarily. I tend to agree with the view of this Egyptologist on this issue:

...The fortresses built along the Eastern border were either abandoned, or control on who passed the borders was not as strict as it used to be. Asian nomads had free entrance into a country which they considered a country of wealth and abundance.

Most of these Asians settled and became traders, farmers or craftsmen, but at least one of them, Khendjer, became a king. By the end of the 13th Dynasty, the Eastern Delta was populated with mostly Asians.

During the early 2nd Intermediate Period, a group of Asians, known as the Hyksos, established their own dynasties in Egypt. Little is known about their origins, or about the way they gained control over large parts of Egypt.

...there is no real proof of military conflicts between the Egyptians and the Hyksos at the end of the Middle Kingdom. It is also possible that the Asian settlers who had been coming to Egypt for some generations had become so powerful, that they were able to gain political control and establish their own dynasties, without a military show of force. The fact that some of them used Egyptian names and that they did not try to integrate their own Asian heritage into the Egyptian culture, may indeed lead to suppose that the Hyksos had been living long enough in Egypt before they seized power to have adapted themselves to the Egyptian culture.

...The first historically recorded traces of a war against the Hyksos are dated to the reign of Seqenenre's son, Kamose. Two stelae commemorate Kamose's struggle against the Hyksos and their vassals. Against the advice of his council, Kamose started or continued the war, punishing all those who had collaborated with the foreigners. He almost succeeded in conquering Avaris, the capital of the Hyksos in the Delta, but he (too) may have fallen on the battlefield.

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/history/14_17/index.html

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

We also have the skull of sequenere Tao who has hole in it from a deadly blow. If the Kemetians[Egyptians] in Ta-Mehu[Lower Kmt],and Ta-Shemu[Upper Kmt] welcomed the Heku wase,then why does Sequenere Tao have blows to the head.

---

I believe the Egyptians initially welcomed or atleast tolerated the Hyksos since there is little evidence of resistance to them. It appears there was no major clashes until about 100 years into the Hykso's reign over Egypt. This is about the time Tao may have been killed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
i have a hard time believing this. for one, the delta region and lower kmt are not interchangeable. the delta region is just the area where the nile branced off into the mediterranean. men-nefer was a capital center in lower kmt, and i doubt the residents would be willing to just give up power without a fight. it was men-nefer where the Heku-wase ruled from.

---

...Yet, Egypt would eventually benefit considerably from their experience of foreign rule, and it has been suggested that the Hyksos rule of Egypt was far less damaging then later 18th Dynasty records would lead us to believe. It would make Egypt a stronger country, with a much more viable military. Because of Egypt's strength and ability to isolate herself from the outside world, cultural and technological growth was often stagnant. Until the Hyksos invasion, the history of Egypt and Asia were mostly isolated, while afterwards, they would be permanently entwined. The Hyksos brought more than weapons to Egypt. It was due to the Hyksos that the hump backed Zebu cattle made their appearance in Egypt. Also, we find new vegetable and fruit crops that were cultivated, along with improvements in pottery and linen arising from the introduction of improved potter's wheels and the vertical loom.

the only point was that i doubt their presence came with out violence, and i doubt they were welcomed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun:
The Delta region is and always was a very important part of Lower Egypt.

---

i don't doubt this at all. but that does not mean the hyksos took power without resistance. absence of evidenvce is not evidence of absence. we just recently learned that there was an attack on upper kmt from kush and punt.

remember that the hyksos conspired with kush to invade upper kmt. so i find it hard to believe that they just walked into lower kmt without a fight. to my knowledge, kmt was never invaded before the hyksos, so i could be that they met little resistance because kemites were not ready for a military invasion.

now this is not to sound anti-hyksos, because in real life there are no good guys or bad guys. the hyksos may well have had their reasons for invading. and foreign contact will always bring technical innovations, but i couldn't imagine hyksos rule being good for kemites. i would hate to have been a native lower kemite while they ruled. and i know i would've hated to be an asiatic when kmt ruled them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
i don't doubt this at all. but that does not mean the hyksos took power without resistance. absence of evidenvce is not evidence of absence.

---

Good point. No one knows how the Hyksos came to power but with a considerable amount of Asiatic immigrants already living in the Delta, and Egypt's military strength greatly weakened, it is possible that they faced little to no resistance. It is also unknown why they took so long to try to conquer Upper Egypt. One theory is that they were stopped by the plague. Another is that they didn't have as much political influence in the south assuming that they took most of Lower Egypt with a combination of political clout and military strength. You have to remember that Egypt was in a period of instability and stagnation when the Hyksos came. The Hykso brought some stability and technological innovations leading many in Egypt to tolerate their prescense for about a century. There is no evidence that the Hyksos imposed their culture on the Egyptians. The only major monuments they left behind were in the Nile Delta where there were many Near Eastern peoples living. Egyptians were still permitted to be Egyptians.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:

remember that the hyksos conspired with kush to invade upper kmt. so i find it hard to believe that they just walked into lower kmt without a fight.

---

What you are talking about took place over 100 years after the Hyksos entered KMT. The ruling family of the north had began warring with the ruling family of Thebes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:

i think egyptology desperately needs to believe in a foreign presence from either asia or europe in kmt, so until i get solid proof i can't believe that they gained power peacefully.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun:
I'm not sure what you're getting at but it is true that there was a massive influx of Asiatics into Egypt during this period in history. Egypt had been somewhat isolated culturally from many Near Eastern cultures. From the end of the Middle Kingdom on, Egypt was forever intertwined with Middle Eastern civilizations.

---

i know there were asians in kmt, but to say that kmt welcomed foreign rule is silly to me and goes against everything i know about kmt. they considered the hyksos foreign. egyptology sounds funny saying that kmt accepted the hyksos. egyptology also says that kmt was happy to see the greeks and accepted them. while they might have been happy to have someone drive out the persians, there is evidence that kemites did not like greek rule and rebelled against them

i know it was a while before upper kmt learned that the hyksos and kush were plotting against them, but that does not mean that there was no tensions. in discovery channels egypt uncovered series, it said that kemites were very embarrassed that part of their land was ruled by foreigners.

and while 100 years is long for an individual, it isn't much relative to kmt's history. i believe the assyrians initially ruled for between 50-100 before the kushites ousted them. the kushites in turn ruled for around 100 years before they were ousted.

My only question is what native clans were there at that time who had legitimate claim to the throne, besides Sekenenra's?

You see Egyptians had a bad habit of capturing Asiatics in war and settling them into parts of the Delta to reclaim the land. Many areas were unsettled around the Delta and it was Egyptian policy to settle captives of war in these areas.

The theory is that the Hykos either came to Egypt as agressors or through peaceful assimilation. The archaeological findings of Manifred Bietak seems to favor the later explanation for the Hykos invasion.