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» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » What race were the Egyptians? - A clever "controversy" (Page 1)

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Author Topic: What race were the Egyptians? - A clever "controversy"
Wally
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Unlike a controversy regarding the existence or non-existence of God, the racial identity of the Ancient Egyptians has never actually been a mystery. It isn't something so vague that it should become a subject of controversy or debate. The Egyptians, both ancient and modern, are real-life ethnic societies. We are not discussing Atlantis here, or space aliens. What we are really discussing here is White racism and romanticism. Before its emergence, everybody in the world had long taken it for granted that Ancient Egypt was a black civilization, just as they had taken it for granted that the Greeks were white, and the Chinese were...well, Chinese.

Enter Egyptology - The only culture with a 'science' named for its study

The thesis that Black African history is myth making, "feel good" Black history, has long been a tenet of European racism & romanticism. This racist/romantic ideology resulted in the creation of the pseudo-scientific discipline of "Egyptology," whose basic function has been to invent and to perpetuate the nonsensical notion that 'the ancient Egyptians were a white race with black skin and woolly hair.(sic!)' It's 18th century romanticism (i.e., Tarzan, She, King Solomon's Mines, ad nauseam) posing as science. It has also become like the bully who steals something from you (your history), and then has the nerve to be upset when you take it back.
J. Olumide Lucas, in his book "The Religion of the Yorubas," gave scientific evidence of the Egyptian origin of the Yoruba people. He too was accused of trying to "invent" a glorious past. One of the scientific instruments Lucas used was comparative linguistics. For example, one can use linguistics to establish the fact that the Anglo-Saxons of England came originally from Germany. This is science. When used in Africa, to trace origins, if it ends up back in Ancient Egypt (as it invariably does), it's myth making!
White racists/romanticists will never accept the reality of a Black Egypt. To admit that Blacks created civilization is to destroy any notion of White racial superiority. That is how they think. It's a hangup.
For information on the Ancient Egyptians own view of race, and where they were in the ethnic universe please refer to: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo


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Aaliyah
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I really hate that Americans turn everything into a "racial question". I guess Egyptians were pretty much mixed, just like they are now. Some of them was black, some of them was white, Mediterranean or anything else. Who cares for the color of their skin? Does it really matter that much?
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ausar
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''I really hate that Americans turn everything into a "racial question". I guess Egyptians were pretty much mixed, just like they are now. Some of them was black, some of them was white, Mediterranean or anything else. Who cares for the color of their skin? Does it really matter that much?''

I agree with you Aaliyah that modern and ancient Egyptians ecopnpass various ranges of phenytypes and ethnicities. Yes,Americans are obcessed over the question of the race of the ancient Egyptians.

The Egyptians[Kemetians] were a mixed race people,but understand it was the people in Upper Egypt that founded the civlization. It is true that people in the Delta[Lower Egypt] since antiquity were more of a mixture than was the people in the South. Costal Northern African types in the Delta;while more tropical African types dominated in Southern Egypt. Later large influxes of Asiatics like Caanites started to flood the region of Upper Egypt,as did Libyans[Berbers] into the Delta as mercenaries. Each of these people added to the mix of the existing Egyptian population.

Misegenation in Egypt has occured since the Ptolmeic dyansty,because there are referenences to Greeks in some provinces taking Egyptin wives and husbands. This pratice was banned in Naucratis,a Greek city that was located in the mouth of the Nile. Notice that Greeks only built one city in Upper Egypt,but also settled in various regions of Middle Egypt.

I think the obcession with the race of the ancient Egyhptians stems from years of Euro-centric and white supremist Egyptology circles. People like Sir Grafton Smith believed that the Egyptians started off as ''white'',but mixed with their imaginary black slaves;thus the dark skin of many modern inhabitants of modern Egypt. This is not true,because the negriod element in Egypt has always been there from pre-dyanstic times amung the Badarian,Naquda not from later imaginary slave trades which the Egyptians never had. The Egyptians used other Egyptians for manual labor not some imaginary slaves. Unfortunatley,amny anthropologist did this not just with Egypt bu with every civlization.


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Kem-Au
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ausar, this is a little off the race topic, but i see alot of post that refer to lower egypt as the delta region. from what i know, this is not the case. i could be wrong, but i always thought the delta region was in lower egypt, not another word for lower egypt. it is the region of lower egypt where the nile begins to break apart and spill into the mediterranean.

for example, giza and min-nefer are in lower egypt, but not in the delta.


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ausar
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'' it is the region of lower egypt where the nile begins to break apart and spill into the mediterranean.
for example, giza and min-nefer are in lower egypt, but not in the delta''

Kem-mau,you are correct in what you state about Lower Egypt. The division of Lower and Upper Egypt probally did not exist in ancient Kemetian times since the unification of Narmer considered the two to be equally part of Egypt. We do observe though that dialect differences and cultural differences did exist between the two regions and this is made clear in the Middle Kingdom text of ''Tales of Sinhue'' that states ''when a Delta man finds himself in Elephantine,he is confused. Can a papyrus cleave to a rock?''

The divisions of Egypt were as follows:Lower Egypt was divided into every region from Giza to the Delta. Men-nefer,named so after Pepi's shrine,was also called the sma-tawy,Ineb-hedj or 'White Wall' and Ankh-Tawy - 'That which binds the Two Lands'was the border between Upper and Lower Kmt.

Every thing South of Men-nefer is considered Upper Egypt. Middle Egypt extends from El Minya to Abydos where you finally get to Asyut.


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Ozzy
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Kem I am agee with you, there is a diference.

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Ozzy
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ausar, there are no less than nine modern and ancient dividions of Egypts; And the descripion of the difference in populations changes along with the time period, what time period are you Quoting from.?

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Ozzy
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I don’t know about other countries but In OZ Wally is not just a name but means something else. I have a question for you; you say the Egyptians are just like you, so you are from Egypt are you? I doubt you are.

A comparison, I am white skinned, and my Y chromosomes will lead to a German Stock. So that makes me "White Folk" of European decent, which makes me a European Caucasoin (Although this is not really correct).

Greeks are classed as White, European, Caucasion. Therefore since they are from the same Continent, the same colour and classed in the same racial category (Caucasion) then I therefore am one and the same as the great Civilisation of Greece. The same could be said of Rome, or any other culture that arose out of Europe.

Tripe!!!!. Many of my forefathers were transported to a country against their will and treated with contempt and cruelty not for the colour of their skin, but for the colour of their money (The poor, jailed for steeling a loaf of bread) some, were eventually given their freedom. Any Australian from such stock will tell you they are far from being a “European Australian”, they are simply Australian, and proud of it regardless of the circumstances of use being there. None! Despite their family genealogy leading to Europe will claim to be connected directly to any great civilisation of Europe, simply because of the colour of their skin or the racial category they are unfairly classed into.

Africa has a much more diver’s population than the rest of the world, and indeed Europe. So why then, do so many people around the world with similar coloured skin strive to connect themselves with the civilisation of Egypt? The Egyptians and the genetically related Nubians are closer related, (because they are the fathers of the peopling world), to some Europeans and Asians than they are to the other diverse African populations. But despite the rest of the world being closer related to North-eastern Africans than the North-eastern Africans are to the rest of Africa, all peoples of the same colour would call them brother, and one and the same, this is simply from the colour of skin!

Egyptians were Egyptians, and unless your forefathers were born in Egypt you are not one and the same. No more than I can claim to be related to the Greeks or Romans, because my forefather’s line came from an area which had cultural and ethnic trade, and had the same colour skin.

Ohh and I am reasonably sure that you are correct that most white people go into Anthropology and Egyptology to purposely divert the truth. I think they teach us at school how to manipulate history. We are in the 21ST Century man, not the 19th were most of what is Quoted is from. No one considers those people as leaders of their fields anymore.

Ausar, is Egyptian, He has a right to claim his country you dont.

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 05 October 2003).]


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ausar
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''ausar, there are no less than nine modern and ancient dividions of Egypts; And the descripion of the difference in populations changes along with the time period, what time period are you Quoting from.?''

I am refering to the Pre-dyanstic era all the way to today. It is well known that the further you go down the Nile from the Delta the more African the people appear.

I also reffered to msiegenation that occured in regions of Middle Egypt during the Ptolmeic period where many Greeks and Egyptian intermarried. This is true because there are drawn contacts showing that many of these paring produced offspring.

The population in ancient Kmt up to the 1860's was only about 2 to 3 million people in both Lower and Upper Egypt. Later, up to the modern period there was a large explosion of birth rates that were mainly in Lower Egypt. We also have various rual peasents that moved from Upper Egypt into the cities that live in isolated urban landscapes around Bulaq,and even in some parts of Alexzandria.

In my post I also pointed out that dialectal difference amung the Egyptian population from the Delta to Upper Egypt that probally existed as far back as the Middle Kingdom;thus the reason why I quoted from the Tales og Sinuehue,a text written around the time of the 12th dyansty. Even linguist will agree that Saidi Arabic and Sahidic Coptic differ from Boharic,and Arabic spoken in the Northern regions of Egypt.
It is well known is historical texts such as the Instructions of Meri-ka-re that Asiatics,Libyans,and other immigrants began moving into these territories around the First Intermediate Period. References to Libyans illegal immigrants into these regions are so abundant they built fortifications to keep them out. By the Saite Dyansty the Delta was overwhelmed by a Libyan pressence.

In Reguard to modern Anthropology,Egyptology,and other disciplines,I feel there is still much they should make up for in the past. The reputations of various people like George Resiner,Breasted,Grafton-Smith,and others are put a dent into mainstream Egyptology when it comes to being objective. I still know Egyptologist who try to say that early Egyptians were blonde haired or red haired or give the impression that these physical types were predominant in the Nile Valley. The case with Joanne Fletcher who made these claims even thought she is not an Anthropologist or any type of sepcialist in this field.

I don't purposely believe that many are in these fields to lie about their findings. In some area prehaps there is still a need to do this,but most seem to be objective. I have alot of respect for Anthropologist like Larry Angel who was one of the people who trained Shomarka Keita. He is well established and respected in peer-reviwed journals. Still others like Cavalli Sfoza cling tightly to data that I don't always agree with. Sfoza does support though that much of the Sahara was ''black'' during the Nelothic periods with some caucasoid types in the Northern fringes.


.


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Kem-Au
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ausar, thatks for spelling kem-mau correctly. i messed it up when i created the profile, and was never able to go in and fix it.

ozzy, i think your message was alot more personal than it needed to be. to say that some kemites are genetically closer to some europeans and asians than they are to other to some other africans may be true because people move around. but i don't why that should stop other africans with identifying with kemet. kemites were african, and not very different from other africans in that region in culture, language and probably appearance. there are numerous links for more info in the last couple of topics. if anyone wants to prove otherwise, they'd better work the genetics angle because it's about all they have left.

kemet was an african civilization, that shared much in common with other african civilizations. it was founded by tropical africans who were not originally from the nile valley, and also founded other civilizations in africa.

today, one goal of egyptology seems to have been to separate kemet from the rest of africa. this is not just a 19th century thing. hawass is alive and well today. only africans and their descendants will put kemet back where it belongs. in africa. i think the middle eastern classification of kemites is hurting our understanding of them.

also kemites moved around africa and founded other civilazations after the multiple invasions from the north east. some of these civilizations are still around today, that is if you buy gadalla's theories.

just because someone is from egypt today, or even the past thousand years, does not make them a kemite decendant.

lastly, why does it matter where someone is from? just because someone isn't from egypt shouldn't mean that they can't identify with kemites. i'm sick of people telling africans that they can't identify with kemites, when they too were african. and who's to tell a non african that they can't identify with kemet. i highly doubt many people today are going to listen to someone who tells them they can't call kemites brother. and i don't think they should. no one looks at an englishman funny for indentfying with greeks and romans.


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Keino
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ozzy:
[B]I don’t know about other countries but In OZ Wally is not just a name but means something else. I have a question for you; you say the Egyptians are just like you, so you are from Egypt are you? I doubt you are.

A comparison, I am white skinned, and my Y chromosomes will lead to a German Stock. So that makes me "White Folk" of European decent, which makes me a European Caucasoin (Although this is not really correct).

Ozzy, I think the comparisons you have used are NOT parallel at all. First of all, things are very different in America. I have taken western Civilization in college and stood in awe as my Irish professor talk so proudly of Greece and Rome as if his direct ancestry is from that region. When other Africans have more genetically in common with Greeks than Anglo-Saxons. However, that did not stop him from standing proudly every single day as he lectured on the greatness of Rome. The thing about Rome (past and present) is that it too like Egypt, is a very genetically mixed region of the earth due to the constant flow of genes between Africans and southern Europeans. Even though some of them look "mulatto"/ Hispanic, blacks do not claim them as black even though commonsense tells us that there has to be some mixture of African black to have certain characteristics! On the other hand when it comes to Egypt they are all called "white" or non-black even when the overall ancient phenotype had an overwhelming "Negro/black" element. That would be equivalent to calling some ancient and present day Italians and Greeks black even though they are overall phenotypically "white" with occasional Negro/black elements. It all comes down to perception and what the present group with power feels about the situation. I just read an article about the strong "Negro" genes in Spain and Sicily but I will not call these people black. When I get a chance I will post the link. Thus why is it so heresy when blacks claim that they have something in common with Egyptian hence can identify with them as brothers? Are you outraged when they use "white" pale-skinned Northern Europeans to play roles of Egyptians? Europeans whites have obviously tried and continue to try identity them self with Ancient Egyptians! Don't you think this is an outrage when most ancient Egyptians obviously had dark/brown/black skin? Who seems to be the more unrealistic group? Should African claim that Ancient and present day Greeks and Italian/Sicilians are black because of the small Negro elements present in those countries? Where do we draw the line? Black people weren't the ones to claim superiority over all other groups! Have you ever been in a class where the professor thinks and implies, "he is doing well for a Negro!" Have a professor ever talked to you as if you were stupid, but then realizes that you have a 3.6 GPA in medical school, are doing research in immunology and are ranked in the top 10% of the class respond to you in awe? I bet not! My point is that racial stereotyping is alive and well and this stemmed from hundreds of years ago and will take time to change! If it is this evident in today's academia how do you think it was 140 years ago when Egyptology was being founded? Obviously I am not claiming all white Americans especially in academia are guilty of stereotyping, but it is still present after all these years! Do you even realize that when Egyptians are compared to Caucasian/white, they are not comparing them to Anglo-Saxons, but when they are compared to blacks/Negro, they are compared to the most extreme western African groups? How much in common do you think someone from Kenya and Ethiopia have in common with Ancient Egyptians compared to an Anglo-Saxon and an ancient Egyptian?

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley


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Amun
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Good post Keino.

There's only so much one can argue about this topic. Race is a very sensitive topic with many people and in America race is more important than ethinic identity. This leads to confusion in the US for the "mixed" ethnicities like Latinos and Arabs. Psychologically, no one wants to be identified as "black." I have even met East Africans who prefer to identify themselves as Arabs rather than black. It's no wonder it's so difficult for historians to accept anceint Egypt as a black African civilization. Even if 100% of Egyptologists accepted this belief as fact they would most likely offened many modern-day Egyptians who attach a negative stigma to the word "black" and see dark skin as a negative trait.

I don't think there should be any reason why black Americans shouldn't identify with ancient Egypt, afterall, West Africans descend from the people who roamed the Sahara for thousands of decades ago too. However distant West Africans and Egyptians may be, they are still all Africans and African Americans should have pride in ancient Egypt as an African civilization but not so much a black civilization because on the whole, Egypt was never all blacks.


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Ozzy
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Kem: said ”ozzy, i think your message was alot more personal than it needed to be. To say that some kemites are genetically closer to some Europeans and Asians than they are to other to some other Africans may be true because people move around. but I don't why that should stop other Africans with identifying with Kemet. kemites were African, and not very different from other Africans in that region in culture, language and probably appearance. there are numerous links for more info in the last couple of topics. if anyone wants to prove otherwise, they'd better work the genetics angle because it's about all they have left.”

Yes it was a little personal, and I make no apologies for that, This guy makes unsupported statements referring to “white folks” not only in his posts but on the site he is advertising here. He makes generalizations about white “caucasion” people which unfortunately places me in the same box. I take offence as you would by someone posting saying all “Black” people are ? whatever. If he has a beef about a particular group or a person, or even research then direct it to them. Don’t use a bullshit blanket statement backed by nothing but personal agenders.

I see however that there have been a number of reactions to people who have posted negetive “Black” statements but little who have similar white statements to the one above, and on his site. It does not make you guys very objective.

Now did I say that Egyptians were not African?, man this is tyring, I said that North-Eastern Africans were closer related to Europeans, not because of migration of Europeans back to Africa but because the Europeans and Asians are the children of the North-Eastern Africans who migrated out. Not the other way round. But as soon as anyone mentions any connection with Europe or Asia you guys turn so quick you miss the message and assume it is another attempt to connect Europe or Asia with the civilization of Egypt and hence separate it from the rest of Africa.

And my post had nothing to do with what I believe about the Ancient Egyptians.

Kem: said “today, one goal of egyptology seems to have been to separate kemet from the rest of africa. this is not just a 19th century thing. hawass is alive and well today. only africans and their descendants will put kemet back where it belongs. in africa. i think the middle eastern classification of kemites is hurting our understanding of them”.

I have read much of what has been suggested to me by all you guys and I have to say that the Eurocentric crap that used to be around is long gone, only kept alive by the people who consistently quote from these outdated, unsupported, Hundred year old views. Many of the ones quoting them are the authors you have suggested .Few main stream Egyptologist or Anthropologists agree with the likes of George Resiner,Breasted,Grafton-Smith. They even use these guys mistakes as examples in the education of the new generation of Egyptologists, not as examples of good Egyptology. There is some die hards out there and I agree that they do some damage to Egyptology, but they will always exist just as extreme Afrocanist still exist and support whole heartedly the views of some Africansist who also are damaging those areas of science. I don’t see anyone complaining about there damaging contribution.

I am sick of hearing how the goal of main stream Egyptology (White Europeans) is to separate Egypt from the rest of Africa. Its unfounded generalization based on outdated unsupported 19th century Egyptologist and a few media seeking fools. And even the current Egyptologists, who you quote as damaging Egyptology today, like Joanne Fletcher. You have no hesitation in supporting when they support your views or agenda. Re: Nefertiti Reconstruction, Quote Ausar:”At least this time she got something right”. A comment made simply because she displayed a black image. Not because of research, not because of her proving it was Nefertiti, not because of any contribution to Egypt, but simply because she showed a black person. The agenda is clear, and not objective.

For people who complain about the damage done by one eyed Eurocentric Egyptology should as another member said to me “examine their biases”

Kem: Said. just because someone is from egypt today, or even the past thousand years, does not make them a kemite decendant.
O
f Ancient Egypt decent of cause not, but they are still Egyptians. But I’m not sure of your point here.

Kem; said “lastly, why does it matter where someone is from? just because someone isn't from egypt shouldn't mean that they can't identify with kemites. i'm sick of people telling africans that they can't identify with kemites, when they too were african. and who's to tell a non african that they can't identify with kemet. i highly doubt many people today are going to listen to someone who tells them they can't call kemites brother. and i don't think they should. no one looks at an englishman funny for indentfying with greeks and romans”.

I have never meet an Englishman that identifies with Greeks or Romans because they are white like them (WHICH IS DEBATABLE ANYWAY) or because he comes from the same continent, that’s ridicules. Only when there is a family history connection.
My problem is as I said that how can anyone say they are “one and the same” just because they have the same skin color.

I said that Africans are the most genetically diverse people on the planet, they have as much genetic diversity in a tribe than some Europeans have between peoples thousands of miles away.

I also said that (and this is what again is being misinterpreted) the rest of the world are the “descendants” of North-eastern “Africans” and some of the these two areas share a genetic make up “closer” to each other than the North-eastern Africans with the many other African peoples.

If these North-eastern Africans, possibly the closest relations to Egyptians are closer related to a European (Again only because the European is of their decent) Then how can one deny any person on the planet an association with Egypt as much as any African or African decendant. To do so would be to separate on the basis of the color of skin. This is just what this guy above is doing. Read my post again and read his post and his site.

I have no problem with anyone having an “affinity” with Egypt, as many of all nationalities do. But to say that all Africans, and of African decent are closer related and therefore can identify with Egypt because they are all “black”, is racist and absolute crap. When, others of different color could easily if wished, show a closer relationship. Its identification based on skin color nothing else.

I know of no one who, simply because of their European heritage and color of skin, claim a relationship with any great civilization of Europe. In fact I have found the complete opposite where, the likes of Albania and Greece, who are from the same stock. No Albanian would dare claim to be of the ancient Greek civilization. No Sicilian, would claim to be anything else but Sicilian, no Turk would claim to be anything else but a Turk.

And I have asked every African I know here which numbers twelve, what they believe there relationship with Egypt was and they all have said Egyptians were Egyptians, They agree they were an African people but that’s all they know and all they care.

They have their own countries. They do not consider themselves one and the same, nor do they feel or have a need to indentify with Egypt, they are proud of their own countries, and their own heritage.

This is an American problem, and much of the remaining posts, show that there is a **** load of politics and personal racial issues you guys are dragging into Egyptology from America that simply does not belong there. And I dare say is not even wanted.

And Keno your assumptions are based again on the fact I am not black, it shows your bias. I in fact left school unable to spell, and barely able to read. I was told by a number of teachers, I was to stupid to learn, and the treatment I recieved would be hard to imagine even to some of you. the funny thing is the one person that did try to help me was an migrant from Nigeria. I will not tell you what I have gone on to do but I now live in a country were I am considered an (Extranjero) stranger, and always will be. Not one person spoke to me or sat next to me for two years. I was ignored or yelled at because I spoke little Spanish, and if you don’t speek the language you are considered an idiot. Its not the same as in America and I am not claiming I know what its like to be you, but you are making assumptions about my life based on my color. Your wrong. And until you guys do not apply the same feelings you have about white America on the rest of us your always going to be looking for “white” Eurocentric in us that isn’t there!

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery;
None but yourself can free our minds.
-Bob Marley
If you know your history,
Then you would know where you coming from,
Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
Who the 'eck do I think I am.
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Amun
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
My problem is as I said that how can anyone say they are “one and the same” just because they have the same skin color.

This is a mentality that has existed in the West since the latter part of the Enlightenment. It lives on today in the US but its dying in Europe.

quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:

But to say that all Africans, and of African decent are closer related and therefore can identify with Egypt because they are all “black”, is racist and absolute crap. When, others of different color could easily if wished, show a closer relationship. Its identification based on skin color nothing else.


I disagree. Many people including myself argue the cultural and lingusitic affinity of ancient Egypt. Unlike most African countries, Egypt isn't racially homogenous, so to argue a racial affinity with any one group is difficult unless you focus on each region of the country individually. The cultural and linguistic affinities with other African peoples hasn't fully been explored and is the only thing worth debating.

quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:

I know of no one who, simply because of their European heritage and color of skin, claim a relationship with any great civilization of Europe.

I know of many in the US. The mentality of Americans is different. The nationalistic element isn't as dominant. If it was we'd all be killing each other. Where else but Brooklyn NY could Arabs and Jews live amongst each other in peace? If only Americans could deal with our racial differences as well as we deal with our ethnic differences.

quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:

This is an American problem, and much of the remaining posts, show that there is a **** load of politics and personal racial issues you guys are dragging into Egyptology from America that simply does not belong there. And I dare say is not even wanted.

I agree. There is a lot of baggage with African Americans since our ancestors were brought here by force and were stripped of their ethnic and cultural identities. Italian Americans can look to Rome with pride; WASP Americans can look to the British Isles with pride. African Americans, stripped of our ethnic identities simply take pride in being African. One of the flaws in Afrocentricism is the tendancy to treat the words "African" and "black" like they mean the same thing.

Ozzy, you make good arguments but you tend to get too personal with your rebuttals.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 06 October 2003).]


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Wally
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I am delighted with the responses to my post "What Race Were the Egyptians? - A clever "controversy", which have more than amply served to prove my point. People actually believe that the racial identity of a given group of people is a debatable issue!
This is predicated on this system of illogic:
Ancient = mythical and therefore, like religion, debatable.
Following this illogic, one is able to believe that the Ancient Greeks were Malay people from Singapore, the Ancient Mayan people were Scandinavian adventurers, and the Ancient Chinese were from the planet Pluto. And if someone comments on these absurdities, the response is "Race doesn't matter!" It would, of course, if you were European (Greek or not), Mayan, or Chinese. And missing the point completely, the point is not race but theft (stealing credit for someone else's achievements). Now say- "Theft doesn't matter", convincingly.

Don't Confuse Me with Facts

People who believe that the racial identity of the Ancient Egyptians is debatable have either not visited my website http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo or are unaware of the existance of the Ancient Egyptian "mural of the races" (They too were, like Americans, "obsessed" with race). This mural, found in the tomb of Rameses III and in other royal tombs, commissioned by the Ancient Egyptian ruling classes, is authentic and explicit. The Ancient Egyptians show us, in P.I.C.T.U.R.E.S. , that they belonged to the Black African racial group. Debate that one...
A confused individual will probably look at these murals with the same non-registering expression as someone, who believes that the earth is flat, looks at pictures of earth from space.
Modern day Egyptians are about as racially mixed as are African-Americans. African-Americans who visit Egypt (sans cameras and tropical shorts) are invariable mistaken for Masri or Egyptians. Debate that one...


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Keino
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Ozzy said: “Now did I say that Egyptians were not African?, man this is tyring, I said that North-Eastern Africans were closer related to Europeans, not because of migration of Europeans back to Africa but because the Europeans and Asians are the children of the North-Eastern Africans who migrated out. Not the other way round. But as soon as anyone mentions any connection with Europe or Asia you guys turn so quick you miss the message and assume it is another attempt to connect Europe or Asia with the civilization of Egypt and hence separate it from the rest of Africa.”

Keino responds: “I agree with you , but there have also been a constant flow of genes between the North-Eastern Africans and Southern Europeans although most of the mixture is only recently. I understand what you are saying but you seem to be missing my point. From my knowledge, most of the genetic testing supposedly proving that ancient Egyptians were “Caucasian” or should say have more in common with the Caucasian people are very one-sided and biased. Why is it ok to compare Ancient Egyptians with some of the most extreme African groups and when comparing them to Europeans use someone that they obviously had genetic exchange with? How much in common do they have with Northern Europeans and Anglo-Saxons? How much in common do Mediterranean Caucasian have with their Northern counter part? I am not saying they don’t have anything in common but how much? Believe it or not sub-Saharan Africans do have some things in common with Ancient Egyptians. You see Ozzy, they use tropical/sub-Sarah African type as the prototype of blackness or “Negro-ness” ( not to be confused with the lose association with African and Blackness). But use the Mediterranean type as the prototype of Caucasian when comparing then to Ancient Egyptians. This is not a parallel comparison. How much do you think Ancient Egyptians have in common genetically with Anglo-Saxons and Northern Europeans. If they genetically test me its a good chance that I might have more in common with an Elglish person than some tropical Africal who come close to fitting the "true negro" criteria! Does that classify me as "Caucasian" even thought my overall phenotype is "black"? Do you understand my point?

Scenario: Lets say that two tropical/Sub-Saharan African groups have very differing genes, which is very possible in Africa. Does this difference in genes make one group black and one non-black? One groups moves to the North and intermix with Mediterranean Caucasian. You do genetic testing on them and compare them to Mediterranean and other African groups. How do you think the genetic testing would show?

Ozzy said: “And Keno your assumptions are based again on the fact I am not black, it shows your bias. I in fact left school unable to spell, and barely able to read. I was told by a number of teachers, I was to stupid to learn, and the treatment I recieved would be hard to imagine even to some of you. the funny thing is the one person that did try to help me was an migrant from Nigeria. I will not tell you what I have gone on to do but I now live in a country were I am considered an (Extranjero) stranger, and always will be. Not one person spoke to me or sat next to me for two years. I was ignored or yelled at because I spoke little Spanish, and if you don’t speek the language you are considered an idiot. Its not the same as in America and I am not claiming I know what its like to be you, but you are making assumptions about my life based on my color. Your wrong. And until you guys do not apply the same feelings you have about white America on the rest of us your always going to be looking for “white” Eurocentric in us that isn’t there!”

Keino responds: Why are you taking things so personally? My post had NOTHING to do with the assumption that you are non-black. Indians, Asians and Hispanics are also stereotyped in America although most of the stereotypes are not as damaging as the “Black” ones. I was simply trying to show you the difference with racial issues in America and how racism is still alive today especially when it comes to persons of “Black” African descent ; nothing more, nothing less! Sorry to hear of your ordeal in Spain, but that is irrelevant in the conversation as I see it. Your story does not parallel with the issue we are discussing. African Americans are home in their country and still discriminated against and stereotyped. Maybe I missed the point of that Spain story, what is its purpose? Are you saying that you was like a different “race” in Spain from the local population because you didn‘t speak Spanish? Again I reiterate, I only told you that story to set the tone so that you can see that racial biases and stereotype still exists in America and I am sure they still exists in Europe although not anywhere near as much as they are in the “west”.

I await your response!


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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley


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Wally
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More Real-World facts:

Egypt is not a "melting pot"
If you consult any almanac or reference source on the ethnic composition of modern Egypt, you will never see 'Ethnic groups: melting pot'
Egypt is generally considered to be a society in which 90+ percentage of the population are 'Eastern Hamites.' Eastern Hamites consist of various Black African peoples such as the Oromo and Beja of Ethiopia and Sudan, and the Somali of Somaliland. When you leave the great Arab cities of the Delta ( IE., Cairo, Alexandria, etc.) and go into the Nile Valley or Egypt Proper, you are in Black Africa, not dark or brown Africa. Egypt is a Black African country which is dominated by an Arab minority. Any real-world reference source will inform you of this fact.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
More Real-World facts:

Egypt is not a "melting pot"
If you consult any almanac or reference source on the ethnic composition of modern Egypt, you will never see 'Ethnic groups: melting pot'
Egypt is generally considered to be a society in which 90+ percentage of the population are 'Eastern Hamites.' Eastern Hamites consist of various Black African peoples such as the Oromo and Beja of Ethiopia and Sudan, and the Somali of Somaliland. When you leave the great Arab cities of the Delta ( IE., Cairo, Alexandria, etc.) and go into the Nile Valley or Egypt Proper, you are in Black Africa, not dark or brown Africa. Egypt is a Black African country which is dominated by an Arab minority. Any real-world reference source will inform you of this fact.


Wrong! The "realworld" reference source almost alway avoids racial caterogization of Egyptians. I have seen a source the (history channel) that describes the population as, "Ancient egyptians, modern egyptians, sudan migrants and other black migrants". That is not even a category for race but they do it anyway.

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Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley


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Wally
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You should change your slogan from "time will tell" to "it helps to read."

From the CIA World Factbook:
Ethnic groups: Egypt
Eastern Hamitic stock (Egyptians, Bedouins, and Berbers) 99%, Greek, Nubian, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1% [Note: Bedouins are actually Semitic and Berbers are considered to be Western Hamites]

From Encyclopedia.com:
The Eastern Hamites comprise the ancient and modern Egyptians, the Beja, the Berberines, the Oromo , the Somali, the Danakil, and most Ethiopians. [Note: these are the Egyptologists black, wooly haired Caucasians!]


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Kem-Au
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ozzy, i think you should relax a bit and try not to take things so personally. you make some good points and bring a unique POV, but we're all simply people interested in kemet and are facinated enough to go on the net and chit chat about it.

on the plus side of these race topics, i've learned alot about egpyt, past and present. on the negative side, no topics gets more heated and once things get out of hand, they're of interest to no one.

i'm not sure what made you angry, but i doubt anyone here means to say that all white people are have a hidden agenda. but africans around the world, especially in the u.s. and europe, are tired of hearing about our distorted history, or lack there of, and no feel that we must not rely on traditional scolarship to shape african history.

just to give you an idea of how egypt plays into this, if you see a depiction of an ancient egyptian today in the u.s. or europe, they are usually caucasian. this is frustrating because it is simply not an accurate depiction of kemet. i've seen kemites depicted as africans on television once, and that was a michael jackson video. when i see slaves depicted, they are always african, however i've never seen a non european portray a greek or a roman.

this site is about egypt, but keep in mind that many africans are careful not to overstate the importance of egypt in africa's history and overlook other great cultures. you'll find that africans will also call south, west, central, etc, africans "brother" as you like to say, regardless of their genetic relationship.

an african-american, a haitian and a jamacain might call each other brother even if they have no links to each other. and they won't listen to anyone who tells them they can't. but these subjects are too personal and are useless to a site about kemet. if someone wants to call another african, i don't see a problem with that. hell, if you wanted to call an african brother, i wouldn't argue with you.


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Ozzy
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Keno, the purpose was in response to you saying, “Have you ever been in a class where the professor thinks and implies, "he is doing well for a Negro!" Have a professor ever talked to you as if you were stupid, but then realizes that you have a 3.6 GPA in medical school, are doing research in immunology and are ranked in the top 10% of the class respond to you in awe? I bet not!” They too were personal experiences to prove a point.

You missed my point. You said, You “bet not”! because you see me as white and how could I have experienced anything like what you have described above because I am not black. (or even if it was not an assumption that I could not have experienced it because I white, it was still an assumption I could not have experienced it) My response was to show you, I have, and many others have. There are many forms of racism, and discrimination. My experiences were not to complain, nor do I have no problem with my past, and I totally accept and understand my treatment here. I am pointing out your assumptions that you “bet not” I could experience such things is based on your knowledge I am white. And as such I could not experience such treatment. I was showing you, your wrong. And I used personal experience to show you this, just as you did with yours examples. So I thought it was an acceptable parallel and relevant.

Kem: Said “this site is about egypt, but keep in mind that many africans are careful not to overstate the importance of egypt in africa's history and overlook other great cultures. you'll find that africans will also call south, west, central, etc, africans "brother" as you like to say, regardless of their genetic relationship.
The word use of “brother” has obviously caused some confusion, I have no problem with anyone calling anyone brother. They call each other variouse family names here when no family connection exists. The word use was to stress a point made in the whole paragraph.

You may also be surprised to find that many Africans from different parts have long considered themselves very separate from each other. Tribes in Africa have a very long history of conflict, the brother thing is an imported identity that is in fact not that common. Shaka Zulu was one of the first to Unite Africans under the same banner, pre-history was much different. I have as I said a number of African friends from different areas of Africa, I have asked them many questions and they tell a different story. It seems as you say it’s the people from the west who are seeking this affinity. The native Western and northern Africans I know do not. I have to add I don’t know anyone from Egypt.

Kem: said “i'm not sure what made you angry, but i doubt anyone here means to say that all white people are have a hidden agenda. but africans around the world, especially in the u.s. and europe, are tired of hearing about our distorted history, or lack there of, and no feel that we must not rely on traditional scolarship to shape african history”.

Keno, said “If they genetically test me its a good chance that I might have more in common with an Elglish person than some tropical Africal who come close to fitting the "true negro" criteria! Does that classify me as "Caucasian" even thought my overall phenotype is "black"? Do you understand my point?

Yes I understand your point, and that is my point exactly, even though genetically you may show this relationship, you will be placed in the “guy above,s” acceptable box because of your appearance, and some one else who does not have your apearence but may have a closer genetic relationship would not, again based on appearance and colour of skin. Unacceptable, and unjust.

If you have read this guys new posts then maybe you may understand my personal offence to what he has to say and the site he is promoting. My comments were initially to him. I have seen posts removed for showing the opposite extreme to the argument, but these are accepted. Why?

And Wally, if the extent of your research is limited to almanacs it explains your narrow views. Your site contains no data backed arguments at all, and your research is non existent.

PS Ausar, have you checked this guys IP logs, you will find he has been here before under other names.



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Ozzy, I still don't see where you got that I assumed things because you were "non-black" I guess I should have asked you, "Have you ever been discriminated against or have people acted biased towards you concerning intelligence simply because of your "race"? I can safetly say "I bet not" which translates into "probably not". A bet is a chance of happening between two or more outcome and not a fixed event. If I had said "you NEVER..ect..; then that would have been an assumption. I apologize for any ill feelings. Another things about genetics we seem to be overlooking the genes that determine how someone looks, their phenotype. You have to have the genes to "look the look". Where do we draw the line concerning other genes that we chose to focus on and genes that determine our phenotype? Why isn't the genes that determine phenotype important in Egypt? You still have not addressed my question concerning the genetic affinity of Northern Europeans, tropical/Sub-Saharan Africans/ Northeast Africans and Mediterranean Caucasoids.

"they use tropical/sub-Sarah African type as the prototype of blackness or “Negro-ness” ( not to be confused with the lose association with African and Blackness). But use the Mediterranean type as the prototype of Caucasian when comparing then to Ancient Egyptians. This is not a parallel comparison. How much do you think Ancient Egyptians have in common genetically with Anglo-Saxons and Northern Europeans?"

Wally, Why are you taking me saying wrong so personally? Most of the sources I have found usually dances around the race issue of Egyptians. A simple explaination of your findings would have opened the door for discussion, but instead you chose to attack me personally telling me that I should change my name to, "it helps to read". What's up with that? If you think I personally attacked you because I said you were wrong then you have issues.

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley

[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 07 October 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 07 October 2003).]


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Wally
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There seems to be as much confusion with the Ancient Egyptian language as there is with the Ancient Egyptian people:
1) Many writers began letters or notes with Hotep or "peace." This is fine, it's just not how the Ancient Egyptians greeted one another.
a) S-udjaibi = "make glad my heart" - at the start of a letter.
b) Udjai = "salutations, hello" - when meeting someone socially
c) Mhotep (Oom-ho-tep) = "in peace" - an expression, not really a salutation

2) Incorrect usage of nouns
a) Usiri is the Sahidic Coptic Egyptian noun for Osiris, and since the Greeks added an 's' to Egyptian nouns Osiris=Osiri. Isis=Isi (It is Ese in Sahaidic Coptic).
b) Kemmau; Kemmiu is a plural noun-adjective which means "Black folk" (Egyptians). It is not proper to use as a singular name. Kemsa="Black man" (Egyptian man) - would make sense to an Ancient Egyptian.
c) Kemmao = "important Black folk" - just as Rmmao = "important folk" (also found in Sahidic Coptic Egyptian)
The adjective 'Kem' (to be black) is a sacred Egyptian word that, unlike common adjectives, comes before the noun. Common adjectives follow the noun.
Other expressions for 'Egyptians' are:
a) Tawiu = "People of the Two Lands"
b) TaMeriu = "People of the Land of the Inundation"
c) TaMeriu = "People of the Beloved Land" (These two expressions are written the same, but with different expressions, kinda like lead and lead.
3) The origin of 'Africa?'
In Egyptian, the expression Afrika(o) = "Hot country above the Nile valley, IE., the hills. (Afri = "hot steam or vapors" ka;kao = "high, above")


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Ozzy
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Kieno, To be honest i thought it was a statement, I dont realy understand the question. Could you refrase it for me, then I will respond. Thanks.
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Ozzy
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I understand your explanation of bet, it is an wager on the outcome of two or more events. Whoever the term I bet "not" translates to you place your wager (or beliefe) on the outcome I dont. I accept that what you meant was simply to give an example of the current situation in th US. I took it a different way because of the term above. We shall leave it at that.
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ausar
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''unaware of the existance of the Ancient Egyptian "mural of the races" (They too were, like Americans, "obsessed" with race). This mural, found in the tomb of Rameses III and in other royal tombs, commissioned by the Ancient Egyptian ruling classes, is authentic and explicit. ''

Wally,the ancient Kemetians were very xenophobic,but I could not honestly say they were a racist people. Laws in ancient Kmt never forbade Kemetians from marrying foreginers nor belittled foreginers that has assimilated into ancient Kmt. You might find that some Kemetian texts refered to people was ''dreaded'',''wrecthed'',and other comments;however this was not a sign of racism on the Kemetians part. This was just war profaganda that tried to dehumanize their enemies at war. From time to time Nubians and Egyptians fought,but unlike early Egyptologist like Breasted who reasoned this was because of race were wrong.

One example is Senworset III long used by racialist types because one of his stela says no Neshsi say pass. Breasted translated this to mean ''negro'' when it only means Nubian. You notice how words can come under false meanings attached with false racial stigma. Yet we find that Senwroset III's family had Nubian relatives. It would be wrong to assume that Sneowrset III attacked the Nubians or any of his foes because of racism,when the fact remained he had Nubians in his family. The entire 12th dyansty,one of the best in Kmt,was started by a Nubian and a Upper Egyptian father from modern day Aswan.

''Again, the ancient Egyptians practised what they preached, and they did
not discriminate by skin complexion or ethnic origin. As the vizier stated
in a 20th Dynasty case, it matters not, if a man married an Egyptian, a
Nubian, or a Syrian woman, she would enjoy the protection of pharaoh's
law governing marriage, but the man could give her his property if he
so desired.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago


--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu''


''The Ancient Egyptians show us, in P.I.C.T.U.R.E.S. , that they belonged to the Black African racial group. Debate that one...''

I agree,Wally,that majority of the Kemetians would have been black,but also many Kemetians in the Delta and Lower Egypt were not black. Most likley the people in the Delta region were costal type Northern Africans you see today in Morocco,Libya,and Algeria. On the Narmer Palette,there is picture of Narmer from Upper Egypt smiting what appears to be an Asiatic person which look different from Narmer and the other Upper Egyptians.

''Modern day Egyptians are about as racially mixed as are African-Americans. African-Americans who visit Egypt (sans cameras and tropical shorts) are invariable mistaken for Masri or Egyptians. Debate that one...''

You are correct on this one that many African Americans often get mistaken fot native Egyptians. This esepcially occurs alot in the Southern region. Frank Joseph Yurco brought his Carribean wife to Egypt and she looked more Egyptians than her mixed French-Egypt friend. Understand,the same thing happens to Lower Egyptians from Cairo in Egypt are called ''Khawaga'',which means foreginer because of their apperance. People speaking Cairene Arabic can sometimes barely understand Sa3edi Egyptians. Of course during Medevil times in Egypt, there was less mixing in Upper Egypt,because the assorted city dwellers looked down upon the village dwelling Fellahin. Turks considered these people to be savages and even forced them to join his army and stole their land from them.


''Egypt is not a "melting pot"
If you consult any almanac or reference source on the ethnic composition of modern Egypt, you will never see 'Ethnic groups: melting pot'
Egypt is generally considered to be a society in which 90+ percentage of the population are 'Eastern Hamites.'''


Egypt has been a melting pot since the pre-dyanstic time period. Considering that Lower Egypt was probally more diverse than agricultural pastorial people of Naquda,Badari and other regions. In Lower Egypt around Maadi,we even have references to Palistinean pottery that indicates that Lower Egypt was conducting trade with peole in these regions. In Upper Egypt,we have a close connection to A-group Nubians and Upper Egyptians who shared the same exact cultural base. So the Delta and Lower Egypt was a meeting place for Africans and Asiatics;while Upper Egypt was a meeting place for other Africans and Saharans,as well as the Nomadic Tasin culture that is well connected to the Sudan.


''You may also be surprised to find that many Africans from different parts have long considered themselves very separate from each other''

This is true.

''Yes I understand your point, and that is my point exactly, even though genetically you may show this relationship, you will be placed in the “guy above,s” acceptable box because of your appearance, and some one else who does not have your apearence but may have a closer genetic relationship would not, again based on appearance and colour of skin. Unacceptable, and unjust.''

You are correct to assume that genotype does not mean phenotype. I will point out using Yap+ as I have many times that the modern Egyptians appear to be very close to other African groups. To clear the confusion,eveybody has Yap- which only indicates the out-of Africa hypothesis,so of course Europeans have Yap-. Two distinct Yap + exist ne is existant in Asians and the other is existant in Africans. Geneticists have long debated the origin of the Yap+ and found no pluasible existance origin of it in Asia. Modern Egyptians also through Abo blood typing have a large existance of B which does occur somehwat in other populations,but most frequently in African populations.


The Sutter factor was once touted as the big "African marker."
Some other important ones are cDe(Rho), Fy(a-b-) and antigens V and
Jsa.

It's a bit dated but try this source:

Tills, D. _The distribution of the human blood groups, and other
polymorphisms._ Oxford [Oxfordshire] ; New York : Oxford
University
Press, 1983.
Here are a few abstracts:
Ann Hum Biol 1987 Nov-Dec;14(6):487-93

Human blood groups in Dakahlya, Egypt.
Mahmoud LA, Ibrahim AA, Ghonem HR, Jouvenceaux A.
Department of Clinical Pathology, Faculty of Medicine, Mansurah
University, Egypt.

New data on blood groups among Egyptians (Dakahlya province) are
obtained by studying eight blood group systems: ABO, Rhesus, MNSs,
Kell, Duffy, Kidd, P and Lewis. Comparing our results with the data
reported in neighbouring countries, we found in Egypt a high
frequency of B, NS, cDe and K genes, a moderately high frequency of
P and the presence of Fy gene. The Egyptian population appears as a
mixture of African, Asiatic and Arabian characteristics.



Ann Hum Genet 1984 Jan;48 ( Pt 1):61-4

Xeroderma pigmentosum in Egypt. III. ABO blood grouping in 22
affected families.

German J, Hashem N, El-Hefnawi M, Cleaver JE.


>
> Hum Hered 1974;24(3):259-72


Genetic markers and anthropometry in the populations of the
Egyptian
oases of El-Kharga and El-Dakhla.

Selim O, Kamel K, Azim AA, Gaballah F, Sabry FH, Ibrahim W, Moafy
N,
Hoerman K.

Hum Hered 1974;24(1):12-23

Genetic blood markers and anthropometry of the populations in Aswan
Governorate, Egypt.

Azim AA, Kamel K, Gaballah MF, Sabry FH, Ibrahim W, Selim O, Moafy
N.

J Egypt Med Assoc 1972;55(8):655-60


ABO blood group distribution in relation to malignancies in Egypt.

Hammouda F, Soliman HA, Hussein MH.

Hum Biol 1974 Feb;46(1):57-68


Hereditary blood factors and anthropometry of the inhabitants of
the
Egyptian Siwa Oasis.

Ibrahim WN, Kamel K, Selim O, Azim A, Gaballah MF, Sabry F, el-
Naggar A, Hoerman K.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
Kieno, To be honest i thought it was a statement, I dont realy understand the question. Could you refrase it for me, then I will respond. Thanks.

I was just stating that from my knowledge the few genetic research that was done to "prove" anceint Egyptians were Caucasian or should I say closely related to Caucasians have been biased and unilateral. Many researchers compare the ancient Egyptians to Tropical/Sub-Saharan Africans but when they compare them to Caucasians, they use Mediterranean and not Northern Europeans. They use Sub-Sarahan African type as the prototype (essense) of "Blackness" but use Mediterranean Caucasoids as the caucasian prototype (essense). I don't think this is a controlled research from a scientific point of view.

How much do you think Ancient Egyptians have in common with Anglo-Saxons, Mediterranean, Northeast Africans and Sub-Saharan African?

would I be wrong if I said that Greeks and Italians have a strong genetic similarity to Northeast african hence they are "Black"?

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley


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Ozzy
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Ausar, You have mentioned the Yap marker a few times. (indels: these are insertions or deletions of the DNA at particular locations on the chromosome. An example is the YAP (Y chromosome Alu Polymorphism)

You mentioned that the Africans have the Yap+ and the Europeans have the Yap-.

My understanding is that, Its an inserton on the chromosome called YAP and basically, you either have it on your Y-chromosome which is(YAP+) or you don't have it at all which is (YAP-).

As you said it is most common in sub-Saharan Africa but is found in decreasing amounts across Northern Africa, Europe, Oceania, and Asia, its found in Asia only in Japan and Tibet. The mutation is estimated to be at between 7000 to 10000 years old to its furtherest location in Japan.

Could you direct me to your info please. Are you quoting from africanancestry.com ?



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Ozzy
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Keino, Ill answer you question, but I am still not sure why you are asking me. I have never maintained that Ancient Egyptians were anything other than of african decent.
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ausar
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No,the Yap + is found in Egypt up to 50% and in some rual areas probally increases in frequency. In Europe Yap + only shows up in increasing amounts around Greece. Yap + is almost unexistant in Northern and Western Europe.

The African and Asian Yap + are different from each other.

see the following

POSTER NO: 584 Y chromosome polymorphisms indicate an ancient migration from the Himalayas to Japan 1B. Su, 3G.V. Ramana, 3S.H. Lu, 4B. Wen, 5R.S. Wells, 2R. Deka, 6P. Underhill, 2R. Chakraborty, 2L. Jin 1Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming, China, 2Center for Genome Information, Department of Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati,USA, 3Human Genetics Center, University of Texas-Houston, Houston,USA, 4Institute of Genetics, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University and Morgan-Tan International Center for Life Sciences, Shanghai,China, 5Wellcome Trust Center for Human Genetics, University of Oxford, Oxford,UK, 6Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford,USA The Alu insertion polymorphism on the Y chromosome (YAP+) has a characteristic distribution in worldwide populations, mainly restricted in Africa, Central Asia and East Asia. The ongoing controversy on the origin of YAP+ and its mysterious occurrence in East Asia, i.e. dominant in Tibetan and Japanese populations but generally absent in other East Asian populations call for further studies along this ancient human lineage. Here we report our preliminary study on a systematic screening of YAP+ in more than 2,500 male individuals from 70 world populations. Nine Y chromosome biallelic markers derived from the YAP+ polymorphism and eight Y chromosome micro satellites were typed in 172 YAP+ individuals from Africa (35), South Asia (9), Southeast Asia (12) and East Asia (116). Our results showed that African and Asian YAP+ are distinctive from each other due to a deep genetic divergence. No evidence was found to support the hypothesis of an Asian origin of YAP+. Among the East Asian YAP+, Tibetans are the most diversified population and have the haplotype ancestral to those in Japanese, indicating an ancient migration from the Himalayas to Japan. In addition, a relatively recent migration of YAP+ from Tibet to Yunnan (southwestern China) was also implied by the homogenous YAP+ haplotypes in Yunnan ethnic populations, which was signified by the low microsatellite diversity and an almost fixed unique microsatellite allele at locus DYS392 in Yunnan populations.
<http://hgm2002.hgu.mrc.ac.uk/Abstracts/Publish/WorkshopPosters/WorkshopPoster11/hgm0584.htm>


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Wally
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I did not say that the Ancient Egyptians were racists (they were both racist and chauvinists) but that the Ancient Egyptian 'mural of the races' shows that they were well aware of the physical variations of humans. They distinguished groups according to their ethnicity. But they also murdered red-headed people who were regarded as symbols of evil, whenever they encountered them. The words Sett (Red; evil; devil) and Deshretiu (Red devils) were racial perjoratives, used to describe White and Semitic peoples. This is well documented.

According to Jean-François Champollion the Younger, in his 13th letter to his brother, remarking about these 'mural of the races' he had seen in various tombs (and unlike the mural on my web site, the ones Champollion found were structured in a racial hierarchy; 1) Egyptians 2) Other Africans 3) Semites 4) Europeans. This blew Champollions mind:

"According to the legend...they wished to represent the inhabitants of Egypt and those of foreign lands. Thus we have before our eyes the image of the various races of man known to the Egyptians... the last one is what we call flesh-colored, a white skin of the most delicate shade, a nose straight or slightly arched, blue eyes, blond or reddish beard, tall stature and very slender, clad in a hairy ox-skin, a veritable savage... he is called Tamhou.... I certainly did not expect, on arriving at Biban-el-Moluk, to find sculptures that could serve as vignettes of the history of the primitive Europeans, if ever one has the courage to attempt it. Nevertheless, there is something flattering and consoling in seeing them, since they make us appreciate the progress we have subsequently achieved."

Melting pot - Maybe we merely differ semantically on this one

There have been Asiatic peoples inhabiting the Nile Delta probably since the time it became inhabitable. (Narmer's tablet indeed shows them being subjugated) This is not unusual, anymore than there are Arab peoples who have been in Ethiopia and Somali for decades, since Arabia is but a stone's throw across the pond. That being the case, then Ethiopia is a melting pot. France and England are melting pots as well. Ethiopia is a Black African country. France and England are both White European countries...Melting pots and all.


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ausar
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''did not say that the Ancient Egyptians were racists (they were both racist and chauvinists) but that the Ancient Egyptian 'mural of the races' shows that they were well aware of the physical variations of humans''

What proof do you have of the ancient Egyptians being racists? Sure the Egyptians were both aware of physical variations,but during the Old Kingdom males were depicted as Reddish brown and females were depicted as a yellowish color. This was symbology and all Egyptians both Upper and Lower Egyptians were depicted as so. Realistic depictions did not start to occur untill the 18th dyansty. This was simply a way to diguise themselves from their enemies that surrounded them.

In the tomb of Horemheb there are pictures of Nubian captives that appear to look like modern Nuer and Dinka people. In contrasts,we also have pictures of Nubians in the tomb of Huy that appear the same as Egyptians during the New Kingdom. While in other tombs like Medinet Haibu there are depictions of red haired Tamahou[Libyans]which are probally the ancestors of modern day Berbers like Kaybele,Riffian,Shawi,and others.


''They distinguished groups according to their ethnicity''
No,they distinguished people according to ''Egyptians'' and ''non-Egyptians''. People who assimilated were painted in the same way that Kemetians were.

''The words Sett (Red; evil; devil)''

Actually,Set was once a good deity that switched later to represent the Hykos deity Sutekh that they associated with their deity. His original birth place was Kom Ombo. Set was never truly evil,but a trickster deity that was still called upon in the barqe of Ra to slay Apep,the serpent of ignorance. He was represented red because of the sand in the Eastern Desert.

''The words Sett (Red; evil; devil)The words Sett (Red; evil; devil) and Deshretiu (Red devils) were racial perjoratives, used to describe White and Semitic peoples. This is well documented''

What text refers to people as red devils? Name your source please. Kemetian refered to many people as wrecthed dreaded,and other epitahs. Does this mean they were racist towards these people? Senworset III banned Nubians from coming into Egypt,but the fact remains he was of Nubian ancestry. Would this imply that Senworset II was racist against himself? Rameses,who refered to Asiatics as wretched,had a daughter named Bint Anath which clearly was a Semetic name.

''there are Arab peoples who have been in Ethiopia and Somali for decades, since Arabia is but a stone's throw across the pond. That being the case, then Ethiopia is a melting pot. France and England are melting pots as well. Ethiopia is a Black African country. France and England are both White European countries...Melting pots and all.''

Yes,this is why some like the Amharan have 30% admixture. This is also why the Asiatic genetic halpotype shows up in some samples of Ethiopians. The Oromo are the oldest people of Ethiopia and show little admixture from Himyarite Yemanis. Somalis have a little Arab admixture due to Mogadishu and it;s interaction with Arabs.

Europe,in a way, was a melting pot of Cro-Magnoid,Grimladi Man,Iberians,and Near-Eastern farmers.


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ausar
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Wally,there were two types of Libyans ne being pale skinned often with red hair called Tamhou,and the latter having dark brown skin called the Technou. Clearly,the Tamhou shows up in later periods;while all depictions of Libyans up to the Middle Kingdom show a dark brown type Libyan.


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Kem-Au
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ausar, i don't know that set was ever a good deity. from my understanding, he was always know as a bad guy, who could at times do good things, like stand up to the snake deity apep. just like good deities could sometimes do bad things. his status as a bad guy was why they attributed the hyksos to him.
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Ozzy
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Ausar, Ill post some new research on the hap marker when i get the time, I have the pdf files but not the links. The Hap + marker has been found in more than just Greece, In fact Greece itself is not even mentioned, and the last research i read of a group from Finland who were trying to find evidance of African markers(Recent African markers not ancient, as there is evidance as with all Europe of ancient markers) in the Greek population. Less than 1% was found, which turned out disapomnting to the reasearchers. Anyway the paper I have claimes the marker has been found in Northern Africa, Europe, Oceania, and Asia. Yes the Asian Hap+ is posibly diferent but the relationship has not been established. Ill find the link and post, it was from 2002, PS: Africanhistory.com is suposed to be doing research on the Hap + but I can find little about them either. Do you guys know about the ancestry service they do?

Are you all getting the message about Wally yet?


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Ozzy
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Ausar, one thing to keep in mind when reading these studies is that the mtDNA shows what history shows, women have moved more. In most ancient societies the women were the ones who moved from tribe to tribe. The Y Chromosome will show less movement and will be less responsible for gene exchange, where as the mtDna will show the gene exchange and posibly may correspond with cultural exchange as well. if they exchange mates then they would most likely be exchanging culture. This is my thought by the way, so dont ask for a link or proof. It just the way i look at the data. So I try not to settle for Y Chromosome nor mtDna studies alone, togeter is were the real picture is. Well for me anyway

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Wally
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Dear Ausar,
I am pretty much repeating what is already on my homepage but...

Egyptian = "Ret" (page 435a,b) = Men
Egyptian chauvanism expressed in "Ret na Rome" = We men above mankind or We race of superior men (see Breasted, Maspero, etc)
Semites = "Namu" (page 373b) =Travelers or wanderers
We also have "Namu Sho" or People who travel the sands
Other Africans = "Nahasu" (page 344a/386b) = Strangers or barbarians - Budge translates "blacks of the Sudan."
Europeans = "Tamhu" (page 855a) = Red people - "Tamh" (page 837a = hematite; reddish iron ore; ochre or pale yellow to red.
"Deshret" (page 554a) = horrible, evil
"Deshretu, Deshrut" (p554a,b) = red ones, red devils; wicked gods associated with Set. Used also to refer to the Namu and Tamhu; a pejorative.
Asiatic copper was called "Hompt Sett" or copper of the red nations.

It is significant that even today, Africans use the term 'red' to describe Europeans, Semites, and even light-complexioned Africans.

Attitude towards Nubia was philosophically (but not always politically) one of reverence:
Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country

Reference: The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2, E.A. Budge, Dover.


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Ozzy
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One more, I still cant find through the link you provided where it says anything about the percentage it is found in African populations, including Egypt. I cant find my link either so ill just cut and past from the pdf file.

If you get a chance althoug its not about Egypt the Hap marker in japan is interesting, It has corrected a few misconceptions about the (Ainu) Jomom civilisation and settled a few debates.


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Ozzy
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Bahaaaa. Another Dictionary, done any real research?
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Ozzy
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Ohh and the author of your sources for information (E.A. Wallis Budge 1857 - 1934). Has been credited with over 100 mistakes in his translations,in the 30 or more publication he has published, which I may add were first published before the turn of the last century.


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Wally
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Dear Ausar,
This is an update to my previous post to you regarding Ancient Egyptian ethnic ideology.
The Ancient Egyptian ethnic ideology becomes extremely clear when put into its proper Black African context:
Virtually every Black African ethnic group has essentially this same ideology. Each one believes itself to be:
--the center of the world
--the greatest monarchy
--the greatest power
--the highest civilization
And that non-Black African people are not humans.
(ask any Masai, Tutsi, Amhara, Oromo, Yoruba, etc., etc.)

Egyptian = "Ret" (page 435a,b) = Men
Egyptian chauvinism expressed in "Ret na Rome" = We men above mankind or We race of superior men (see Breasted, Maspero, Diop, Champollion, etc)
Semites = "Namu" (page 373b) =Travelers or wanderers
We also have "Namu Sho" or People who travel the sands
Other Africans = "Nahasu" (page 344a/386b) = Strangers or barbarians - Budge translates "blacks of the Sudan."
Europeans = "Tamhu" (page 855a) = Red people - "Tamh" (page 837a = hematite; reddish iron ore; ochre or pale yellow to red.
"Deshret" (page 554a) = horrible, evil
"Deshretu, Deshrut" (p554a,b) = red ones, red devils; wicked gods associated with Set. Used also to refer to the Namu and Tamhu(Asians); a pejorative.
Asian copper was called "Hompt Sett" or copper of the red nations.

"those most detested by the Egyptians were the Asian shepherds of all kinds, from the Semites to the Indo-Europeans, for these, no epithets were insulting enough..."ignoble Asians," "accursed" and "pestiferous," "pillagers," "thieves..."
---From African Origin of Civilization, C.A. Diop, page 62

It is significant that even today, Africans use the term 'red' to describe Europeans, Semites, and even light-complexioned Africans. A candid Nigerian will tell an African with light or hazel eyes, "you have the devil in your eyes." (Ask one)

--Attitude towards Nubia was philosophically (but not always politically) one of reverence:
Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country
Reference: The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2, E.A. Budge, Dover.
Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic)
Wolof


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ausar
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ausar
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Ozzy,the only reason that Yap + would show up in Finish populations is because of the altaic roots. The genetist Hammer believes that the Yap + in Asia came from Mongolia.

I have the PDF on Yap + in Egyptians and other Africans,but I am away from my computer right know.

Like I said previously,genetics are only subjective on who they study and from what samples they take. People like Cavalli Sfoza are top people in their field,but the data he uses on African populations is questionable because of his seletive sampling.

Ozzy,understand there is a group of linguist out there called the Nostratics. These people have proposed that one big super group of language from Indo-European,Alatic,Dravidian,and other languages come from a common source of farmers that spread out from Asia Minor. Some have included Afro-Asiatic into this cluster,but so far there has been no positive link to this group.


I prefer to use historical and linguistic data when conducting reserch,but I can venture off in population genetics when necessary. Many of these geneticist donot take in consideration historical or archeological events that have taken place. This is true when they reference Egypt.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 09 October 2003).]


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ausar
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ausar
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''It is significant that even today, Africans use the term 'red' to describe Europeans, Semites, and even light-complexioned Africans. A candid Nigerian will tell an African with light or hazel eyes, "you have the devil in your eyes." (Ask one)''

Yes,most Western and Central Africans refer to lighter people then themselves as ''red'' and even ''white''. Reported cases of African Americans moving to Ghana the locals have refered to them as ''white'' and even ''red''. The Mande people often refer to white people as toumba[sp]. Some linguist speculate that the Wolof word honq is the origin for the epitaph honky.

The ancient Kemetians called foregin people the following: Setjet,Ferakhu[Caanites,Phonecians],Bedu[nomadic arabs that lived around the Sinai],mazoi[Nubian tribe],Yam[region that later became Cush],Wawat[region of Lower Nubia],medijay[related to the modern day Beja],aamu[Asiatics],lebou[Libya],Techneu[dark skinned Libyans],Tamhou[white skinned libyans possibly desendants of modern Kaybele,Riffian,Chawi,and others]


''Egyptian chauvinism expressed in "Ret na Rome" = We men above mankind or We race of superior men (see Breasted, Maspero, Diop, Champollion, etc)''

Kemetians refered to themselves as Rmt En Km

Show me in exact quatations where any of the following said the Kemetians were chavinistic. If you pay close attention on the bas reliefs you notice that women are placed as equal size of their male conterpart. Usually in Babylonian art we see that females are shown below the size of men. This was not existant in ancient Kmt.

Diop argued that the Kemetians were matriarchical like other Africans.

''Other Africans = "Nahasu" (page 344a/386b) = Strangers or barbarians - Budge translates "blacks of the Sudan." ''

Actually,the word means riverline Nubian not black.

''Europeans = "Tamhu" (page 855a) = Red people - "Tamh" (page 837a = hematite; reddish iron ore; ochre or pale yellow to red. ''
Tamahu refered to Libyans.

''those most detested by the Egyptians were the Asian shepherds of all kinds, from the Semites to the Indo-Europeans, for these, no epithets were insulting enough..."ignoble Asians," "accursed" and "pestiferous," "pillagers," "thieves..."
---From African Origin of Civilization, C.A. Diop, page 62''


Diop quoted Menetho to counter attack that Kemetians only refered to Nubians as wretched. Yes,Senworset I also refered to Asiatics as ''vile'' and bragged about being the throat slitter of Asia.


''Attitude towards Nubia was philosophically (but not always politically) one of reverence:
Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b.
Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning.
Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country
Reference: The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Vols 1&2, E.A. Budge, Dover.
Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic)''

Depends which region of Nubia you are talking about since Ta-Seti[Lower Nubia] was considered part of Kmt. The term for Nubia was ta-seti,and the word Nubia did not come into use until Greco-Roman times. In the ''Hymn to Aten'' Akenaten denotes all lands south of Ta-seti to be foregin lands with the exception of Punt which was considered ta-ankhu[land of the ancestors]



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Wally
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I was using the original, uncorrupted definition of chauvinism:
1 : excessive or blind patriotism -- compare "Jingoism"
2 : undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged.
So, I meant, like French or German chauvinism. Kemetians thinking themselves better than other Africans is chauvinism. I wasn't talking women's lib.

Yes, the Kemetians referred to themselves as Rome n Kem(et) (Rmt en kem), but also Kemmiu, Kemetiu(Kmtjw), Kemu (Kmw), Ret, etc. It was Maspero who first mentions the term Rot en na Rome (Ret na Rome) in his history of Egypt.

Nahas means "good for nothing in wolof"; of course it doesn't mean black. It essentially means "barbarian." Wolof is as close to Pharaonic Egyptian as Coptic is.

Nubia comes from the Kemetian noun Nub for gold, and we also have Nubi or "gold worker", it became the name of the gold region of Egypt/Sudan.

True, the Kemetians claimed Punt(land), Somali, as one of their ancestral homelands, the other was Ta-Seti, or simply "the south." Depended on which ethnic group was dominant at the time (IE., Mesnitu, Anu).


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ausar
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Wally,since you did a history page on Egypt,why not do a page on other parts of Africa as well. I don't just reserch Egypt,but other parts of Africa.

Many of these areas are just as interesting. Diop did not just write about Kmt,but also wrote about other parts of Africa to.

Out of curiosity Wally, are you the same person who did the web page''The Pyramids are not a Mystery''?


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Wally
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"Wally,since you did a history page on Egypt,why not do a page on other parts of Africa as well."

>> This is probably inevitable.
"Out of curiosity Wally, are you the same person who did the web page''The Pyramids are not a Mystery''?"

>> A site supporting organized religion?! Heaven's no! (good looking site, though...)



Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
egyptiangurl
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just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANE BUT NOT BLACK... PERIOD!
Posts: 1 | From: cabada | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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