quote:

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Originally posted by egyptiangurl:
just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANE BUT NOT BLACK... PERIOD!

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quote:

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Originally posted by egyptiangurl:
just so that we can straighten this whole thing out.... I AM EGYPTIAN.. i am coptic.. i am about the purest thing that will ever come to the ancient egyptians.. i have had no racial mix in my family tree and i am DEFINETLY NOT BLACK. .i am tanned.. my features are caucasion and my sister is as pale as snow... my mom is light and my dad is tanned... all of our features are middle eastern and caucasian.. we are also mediteraneans.. many ppl think im either italian or greek... the only black ppl in egyopt are those from NUBIA OR SUDAN... but the copts are not.. u can look at a room full of copts and u will see how white we can be... THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE EGYPTIANS.. WE ARE NORTH AFRICAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, MEDITERREANE BUT NOT BLACK... PERIOD!

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
You also have the same IP trail as wally, Go figure?????

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ozzy, i really don't see what this has to do with anything. i don't want to make it seem as if i'm taking any sides here because i'm not, but does this really matter? it doesn't offer anything to anyone on this board. if it's a credibility issue, then i think that's a little silly because we are simply people posting on an internet forum.

i've long had problems with egyptology (amongst other disciplines) because too often they attack the credibility of their opposition, rather than the points they make. hawass is the most recent example i can think of, attacking fletcher's credibilty, rather than debating her points.

Actually,what she is saying about the Coptics is partially true. Many Coptics that live in Lower Egypt are very light and pale,but she should not speak for all Coptics throughout Egypt. The Coptics in Upper Egypt are dark brown,and many of them could be considered black in America.

Know what is a lie is that only Coptic Egyptians are pure. This is a blantant lie that has been made by some Coptics because of their persicution by other Muslims.

She is also mistaken to say that the only black people in modern Egypt are the Sudanese of Nubians. Go to any place in Luxor,Aswan,or even Assiut and look at both the Coptic and Muslim populations there.

What the Coptic correspondent stated is true certainly of Copts found in
the northern part of Egypt, and in Middle Egypt. However, there is a large
Coptic population in Luxor, as well as Aswan, and those Copts are brown
complexioned just like the other, Muslim Egyptians of those parts of
Egypt. So, it is not true that all Copts are light complexioned.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Yes, Egyptologists do consider the ethnicity of the Egyptians, but in a rational way without the flaming that is seen in many postings in this issue. To the Egyptian who considered any dark complexioned Egyptians as descendants of Nubians or Sudanese, have you ever travelled from Luxor to Aswan? There the entire population is dark brown in complexion. Yet can you write them all off as descendants of Sudanese? Hardly. They are Egyptians and that they have been that complexion for thousands of years is demonstrated by New Kingdom paintings of the Theban population, then just as dark brown as now, for instance, in Sennedjem's tomb at Deir el-Medinah. So, what we have is a very diverse population in Egypt, light complexioned in the north, and gradually darkening as you proceed south. Another myth that needs exploding is that all Copts are light complexioned. Ever meet a Copt from Luxor or Aswan? They are as brown as the rest of the population there. I lived three years in Luxor and have travelled extensively in Egypt, so I speak from experience. Again, surveying the ancient monuments can be instrutive. So, for instance, the statue of Sheikh el-Beled, or Ka-Aper, as he was known anciently, looks exactly like the people of Saqqara today. That's how he acquired the name "Sheikh el Beled" for those who know the story of the statue's finding by Mariette's workmen. Another famous excavated piece is the double statues of Rahotep and Nofret. You can see people like the facially, all over the Cairo greater area. What differs, is the color convention that has depicted Nofret as light and Rahotep as red-brown. Aside from that color convention, if you examine the facial details of Dynasty IV-V statuary and reliefs, they look very alike the modern Cairo area population. As Sinuhe, in his story put it, when a Delta man finds himself in Elephantine, he is confused. The two extreme parts of Egypt were quite distinct even back in Dynasty 12! Another of Sinuhe's metaphors is, "can the papyrus ever cleave to the rock" another contrast of the Delta with Elephantine.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Kem, Before making comments like above you should first ensure you do not or have not done the same. Should I cut and past some of the things you have labled others without addressing the issue?

As for the IP thing I think its very relivant considering that you aare all responding to the same person; who loggs on in different names: Wally has no less than three or four logg in names. Ausar can confirm as he has access to IP loggs, he cn tell you if he knows what he is loking at that the Ips are from the same server.

As for debating his or hers arrgument, I think you know by now if I felt it was worth the efort I could debate any and all his or hers posts.

PS:Anyone can track IPs, check servers etc etc.

The Coptics cannot claim they are pure,because over the centuries Greeks freely intermixed with the Coptics in Lower Egypt and Middle Egypt. This is well docuemnted the mixing of Greeks and Egyptians.

The only pure Egyptians today are the Fellahin,Sa3eadi,and other people who dwell in Upper Egypt. We know for sure that these areas were ruled indepdently by Egyptians that even claimed themselves to be pharoahs.

The term Coptic comes from the Arabic term Qibti which actually refers to all Egyptians who untill Caliph Hakim were all Christains. Coptics in Upper Egypt spoke Sahidic Coptic untill about the 16th century. All Coptic dialects desend from Sahidic which is clearly Upper Egyptian in origin.

Little does the poster know that Al Kahiz,a writer in the 9th and 10th century, refered to the Coptics as amung the black people of the world. Other Arab writters also wrote about the blackness of the Coptics. Even today in regions of Southern Egypt there are Coptics there that are dark brown like the Muslims and have wavy to kinky hair. Matter of fact,most of the Coptic population is in Assiut,Luxor,and Aswan.

Al-Jahiz (Abu Uthman Amr ibn Bahr al-Kinani al-Fugaimi
al-Basri) was among other things a naturalist, a
zoologist, and a taxonomist. Many have called him the
greatest scholar of hist time. In The Book of the Glory
of the Blacks over the Whites he writes:

"And they said, 'The number of blacks is greater than the
number of whites, because most of those who are counted as
whites are comprised of peoples from Persia, the mountains,
Khurasan, Rome, Slavia, France, and Iberia, and anything
apart from them is insignificant. But among the blacks are
counted the Zanj, the Ethiopians, the Fezzani, the Berbers,
the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, the Moors, the people
of Sind, the Hindus, the Qamar, the Dabila, the IndoChinese,
and those beyond them. The sea is more extensive than the
land, and the islands in the sea between IndoChina and Zanzibar
are full of blacks, like the Sarandib, Kalah, Amal, Zabij,
and its islands up to Hindustan and IndoChina, and Kabul and
those coasts."

Ibn Qutayba (828-89) wrote: Wahb ibn Nunabbih said: Ham the son of Noah was a white man, with a handsome face and a fine figure, and Almighty God changed his color and the color of his descendants in response to his father's curse. He went away, followed by his sons, and they settled by the shore, where God increased and multiplied them. They are the blacks. ...Some of his children went to the West. Ham begat Kush ibn Ham, Kan`an ibn Ham, and Fut ibn Ham. Fut settled in India and Sind and their inhabitants are his descendants. Kush and Kan`an's descendants are the various races of blacks: Nubians, Zanj, Qaran, Zaghawa, Ethiopians, Copts, and Berbers. (Kitab al-Ma`arif, ed. Tharwat `Ukasha, 2nd ed., Cairo, 1969, p. 26)

Finally, the posters have lurched into the truth on the issue of who the
ancient Egyptians were. Yes, Upper Egyptians, Copts and Muslims alike are
dark complexioned, and their hair varies from wavy to kinky. Certainly,
in the ante-bellum American South, they would have been classed with the
other Africans who were enslaved. That ante-bellum southern image is still
common in the United States, where if you have any African ancestors you
are classed as "b;ack". Yet, how screwed up the Americans are is evident
by how the census bureau deals with Egyptians who migrate to the United
States. They are classed as "white" no matter how brown they appear!!!

The facts are this: Egyptians are, and were anciently an African people.
All Africans, though are not uniformly black! In the Nile Valley, pre-
cisely, you can see the whole array of complexions that these Africans
come in, from the light complexioned northern Egyptians, to the light
brown of Middle Egypt, the rich brown of southern Upper Egypt and the
Sudan, and finally the jet black Shilluk, Dinka, and Nuer. No Africans
anywhere are blacker than these three Sudanese groups.

So, calling ancient Egypt an African culture is quite correct, but
calling it a black culture, simply takes the American social construct
and incorrectly applies it to a country where it simply does not fit.
No wonder the Egyptians get upset with this misrepresentation. I cannot
blame them, and agree with them, that all people in their society, no
matter how light or dark complexioned, are Egyptians. They have never
practiced racial discrimination such as the American and certain western
Europeans nations reek from.

Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Here is some of your ''so called' white Coptics. Most look more Mulatto than white.

http://www.4th-district.com/Images/4th-mind.jpg
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p17a.htm
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p18b.htm
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p9a.htm
http://www.copts.net/kosheh/p18a.htm

The following a Coptics take from El Kosheneh,but darker skinned Coptics live further to the South.

Here is description of moder Egyptian fellahin in Luxor who have not mixed with anybody !!!!!!!!!

Except for his curly black hair, with its hint of African negro
blood, he [Shahhat] looked more Arabian than Egyptian; most of the
men in the village were shorter, more heavily built, and had strong
cheekbones, thick noses, and heavy jaws. Among their rugged faces,
Shahhat's stood out as singularly expressive."
The reader might conclude from such a description that Critchfield's
initial attraction to Shahhat was due to the fact that his features
were much less African than those of the majority of Upper Egyptians.
Ironically, that is the attitude of some inhabitants of northern
Egypt, who refuse to acknowledge Upper Egyptians as Arabs, and
consider darker skin to be a negative trait. Such prejudice is the
second challenge which faces Upper Egyptians, in addition to poverty:
racism.
Although I did take issue with the presumably inadvertent racial
implications of Critchfield's observations, Shahhat, an Egyptian is
an entertaining and vivid introduction to the richness and diversity
of rural Egyptian life.
Uzra Zeya is a program coordinator for the American Educational Trust
specializing in Islamic affairs.
Advise and Dissent and Shahhat, an Egyptian are available from the http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/598/li1.htm
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003045.htm

Egyptians were never Medditerean or Middle Eastern except for Lower Egypt around the Delta !!!!!!!!!

The civlization of Egypt started in Upper Egypt were even today the people are dark brown !!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Kem, Before making comments like above you should first ensure you do not or have not done the same. Should I cut and past some of the things you have labled others without addressing the issue?

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
You also have the same IP trail as wally, Go figure?????

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Ozzy,
Do you think I am the same person as Wally?
I'm not. Let's get back to the topic please. I think egyptiangurl is the revised version of egyptmed or whowever by other names.

Carry on shall we?

The article has a neighbor-joining tree and dendogram
both showing that present-day Egyptians cluster
together with Africans. A sample of 64 Egyptians was
used.

From Passarino et al.

Ethiopian (64) 50.0 ± 6.2
Senegalese:
Mandenka (56) 98.2 ± 1.8
Wolof (31) 100
Mixed African (44) 59.1 ± 7.4
Bantu (442) 78.0 ± 2.0
Khoisan:
Nama Sekele San 68) 46 ± 6
Tsumkwe San (38) 11 ± 5
Egyptian (64) 53.1 ± 6.2
Saudi Arabian (21) 10.0 ±6.4
European (192) 7.0 ± 1.8

<http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v62>
n2/970077/970077.html

here is the Yap + for Egyptians and some other people

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Ausar, Do you know what the representation for the Egyptian sample was. Re; you always point out that sameples do not often include rural populations and often come from norther populations.

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Ozzy,the Khoisan are amung the earliest people on the planet. These people are probally amung our earliest ancestors. Ethiopians are related,because they are also amung the earliest people.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Are you the same Tarah that is part of the Kemetic orthdoux? ???

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Are there a few actors from Luxor or Asyut then are there?

I Watched a TV movie the other day made in 2002 were black Americans played New guinea highlanders. I have also seen non native Americans play, native American Indians, French, Spanish, German, Greek; Italian, Russian, Australian aboriginal, New Zealander Maori, Polonisian, Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Arab, etc, etc, etc. I don’t think Its a conspiracy its simple economics. Thats not to say I agree with it.

The photos were taken by a man by the name of Jorge Tutor; he is not Egyptian. The phot´s are of a family around the Luxor area as Ausar has stated. Jorge did not post the pics.

____________________________________________

Ozzy, I understand that people select different actors on budget reasons. It would be a pleasent change to see that ethnic groups are played by their proper ethnic group. Not only Egyptians,but other groups to.

One thing I am disapointed with is that there never has been a documentary on the rual Egyptians. If I ever get up enough money and a camera crew I plan to document them for cultural,and anthropological reasons. There is a cultural center in modern Egypt that documents this,but unfortunatley I donot have their adress.

The person who did those photos did a very nice job. I also like the shots of the pyramids,sphinx,and Cairo.

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Originally posted by ausar:

Ozzy, I understand that people select different actors on budget reasons. It would be a pleasent change to see that ethnic groups are played by their proper ethnic group. Not only Egyptians,but other groups to.

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ausar, we've been over this topic before, but the reasons are not always budget. in fact, i'd go as far to say that when it comes to africa, especially egypt, it's usually not budget.

there was a discovery channel program i mentioned a while back where "nubians" were said to be black africans, but egyptians were not. go see the play aida. the egyptians are white, but if a black actor is used, s/he will play a nubian. in the recent mummy movies, the egyptians are white. in movies that deal with slavery (amistad) the actors are black etc. there are too many examples to go into.

there is clearly a double standard here, but the trend is beginning to change. the discovery channel is beginning to use more black actors in egyptian programs. And there was a computer program I saw recently (I believe it was called civilization) where they had both egyptian and kushite civilizations and both were black.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Here is more information if you are interested.

The festival features a colorful pageantry, a fascinating array of
centuries-old musical instruments, and dances ranging from the martial
artistry of the TaHtib (stick dancing) to the Raks Sharki (belly
dancing). The festival provides a rare look at Egyptian folk arts
spanning nearly 6,000 years. The performers are drawn primarily from
Cairo's Nile Folklore Traditional Group, which was founded in 1954
with the mission of preserving the authenticity of ancient Egyptian
folklore and presenting it as a living art to today's audiences. The
festival's artistic director, Abdel Rahman ElShafie, travels
throughout Egypt visiting villages and remote provinces in search of
artists who have learned their craft from their parents and
grandparents.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Kem-Au,would you agree that rual Upper Egyptians are the direct desendants of the ancient Egyptians?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Here is more information if you are interested.

The festival features a colorful pageantry, a fascinating array of
centuries-old musical instruments, and dances ranging from the martial
artistry of the TaHtib (stick dancing) to the Raks Sharki (belly
dancing). The festival provides a rare look at Egyptian folk arts
spanning nearly 6,000 years. The performers are drawn primarily from
Cairo's Nile Folklore Traditional Group, which was founded in 1954
with the mission of preserving the authenticity of ancient Egyptian
folklore and presenting it as a living art to today's audiences. The
festival's artistic director, Abdel Rahman ElShafie, travels
throughout Egypt visiting villages and remote provinces in search of
artists who have learned their craft from their parents and
grandparents.

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Originally posted by Tarah:
[QUOTE]
Wow, that sounds like a breathtaking experience. It reminds me a lot of the Native American Indian festivals(called pow-wows)that we have here in the U.S. I love going to those because of my heritage, but even if I weren't half Cherokee I would still enjoy it. We have dancers and drum ceremonies and great food and crafts.

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The problem is you have a very hetrogenous population that varies from very different phenotypes,so people naturally get these people confused. Even Egyptians in Lower Egypt who come to Upper Egypt often get called Khawagas because of their apperance,and there is also a language difference between Cairene Arabic and Upper Egyptian[Saidi] Arabic. Apparently,this has been in Egypt for quite a while according to the ''Tales of Sinhue''.

What is sad is that modern Egyptians donot idenify with the very distant past condeming it as pagan. Only the very rual modern Egyptians preserve the traditions of the ancient Egyptians. Often the Sa3eadi,Baladi,and Fellahin pratcing their ancestral relgion get hunted down in witch hunts.

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Originally posted by ausar:
[BSome will say that rual Egyptians like the Sa3eadi are the direct desendants and others will give you various other opinions.
Often the Sa3eadi,Baladi,and Fellahin pratcing their ancestral relgion get hunted down in witch hunts.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 22 October 2003).][/B]

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
can you tell me when and where these are held? you can send me an e-mail if you like.

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Sa3eadi refers to people from Upper Egypt. The 3 is an Arabic accent mark that is used in Arabic words in translations. Since Arabic and other Semetic languages have not vowels.

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

What is sad is that modern Egyptians donot idenify with the very distant past condeming it as pagan. Only the very rual modern Egyptians preserve the traditions of the ancient Egyptians. Often the Sa3eadi,Baladi,and Fellahin pratcing their ancestral relgion get hunted down in witch hunts.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 22 October 2003).]

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Originally posted by Tarah:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kem-Au:
[b] can you tell me when and where these are held? you can send me an e-mail if you like.

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[/B][/QUOTE]