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Author Topic: What race were the Egyptians? - A clever "controversy"
ausar
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''Hello Ausar, I think that you are very educated man as for ancient Egypt.I have a little question: One of your parents is Algerian? Is he(or she)light or dark-skinned?
Majority of Algerians, which I saw is relatively light and close to Italians or Spaniards.''

Yes,majority of Algerians are very light complected,but there are people like the Tuareg that live in the Sahara area that are dark skinned. In Algeria there are also people called the Haratin that are desedant of the ancient Saharan people.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayazid:
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/

To Wally: your description of this picture is not correct: first figure is surely Nubian, second is Lybian, third is other Nubian and fourth is Semite.You must use faithful informations!


There is actually a big debate to that. Some say the first figure is an Egyptian, but Kent Weeks website (though that doesn't mean Weeks himself wrote it) says it is a Nubian mistaken for an Egyptian. The question is who made the mistake? The two figures are labeled differently, and have very slight facial differences. I can't read the glyphs, so I don't know if it says one is an Egyptian. But if it does, I'd be inclined to think it is correct.


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Obenga
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http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/colors1.jpg


Last one is the Kemetian

[This message has been edited by Obenga (edited 23 October 2003).]


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Obenga:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/colors1.jpg


Last one is the Kemetian

[This message has been edited by Obenga (edited 23 October 2003).]


those are actually two different images. it's not the same as the one posted earlier.


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Obenga
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I know Kem. The other image is usually called some king of misrepresentation the one I posted is usually presented as a true representation of Kemites the one on the right being Kemetian
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Keino
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I think it is obvious that the ancients Egyptians were a Black African people. I think people will chose to ignore this fact since the western society holds "white" as the qunitessence of good, intelligence, and beauty while black is the antithesis. This is no suprise because when black people ruled (in Egypt and other black anceint nations) they had the same sentiment about being black. Black was the Qunitessence of everything good, intelligent, and beautiful. White meant death and weakness to the ancients.

Look that the current western representation of Jesus christ! Blond haired, blue eyes, pale skin. When the bible described him as bronze (a rich/dark shade of brown) with hair like wool! Also the bones found in Israel around the time Jesus is supposed to be alive represent an Afo-asiatic or Eurafrican type. So it isn't much of a shock to me that the western view tries to paint the ancient egyptians as white, but what is a shock is supposedly educated people look at all the fact and some try to turn black white and disregard information that indicates views that are different from the eurocentric society.

Another things is the Arab influence into Cairo and other nothern countries while Upper and parts of middle egypt have much of the original phenotype of the ancients. Had this been any other place that had no big significance, it would have been easily seen that: 1) many rural upper egyptians still have some of the culture of the ancient egyptians. 2) The "Arab" north has none the original culture and the Arab invasion didn't take place until about 7th century. I can go on and on, but I think you get the picture. There are countless facts that "solves" the origin of these people, but the the western view does not like them. They don't fit their "eurocentric" view of the world hence it is a "mystery".

If you don't think that white western world as a whole thinks that black is inferior ask a black person in america, Austria, South Africa and some parts of Europe. A white person in america might not notice the subtle sometimes blatant undertone of "white right and black stay back" mentality. If you are a white person ask yourself honestly, "How would my family and friends think if I brought home a black boyfriend/girlfriend or married someone black?" You can even ask yourself this if you're not white, but not black.

I know it is a very debatable aspect of Ancient Egyptian history that doesn't get the proper coverage in the proper way. Many Egyptologist view ancient Egyptians like a separate race. Its like calling african americans non-black while only calling sub-saharan africans black when egyptologist use phrases such as, "during this period the Black pharoh of Nubia ruled Egypt and later the Egyptians took it over." When the only difference was the ethnicity of these two peoples not the race.

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley


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Ayazid
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Dear Keino, I think that is absolute nonsense to say that the ancient Egyptians were "black" or "white" people. My father is black but Iīm not influenced by the ideas of afrocentrism in that case.I think that the ancient Egyptians were mostly mediterrean people with certain negroid elements, which are distinct up to the present , especially in the Upper Egypt.To say that light-skinned Egyptian of the Lower Egypt is probably foreigner and dark-skinned Egyptian from the South is certainly direct descendant of the ancient Egyptians is groundless racism, the Ancient Egypt were very heterogenous and there were different phenotypes. But itīs true that there were some influences from Asia and Europe in the North.
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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayazid:
Dear Keino, I think that is absolute nonsense to say that the ancient Egyptians were "black" or "white" people. My father is black but Iīm not influenced by the ideas of afrocentrism in that case.I think that the ancient Egyptians were mostly mediterrean people with certain negroid elements, which are distinct up to the present , especially in the Upper Egypt.To say that light-skinned Egyptian of the Lower Egypt is probably foreigner and dark-skinned Egyptian from the South is certainly direct descendant of the ancient Egyptians is groundless racism, the Ancient Egypt were very heterogenous and there were different phenotypes. But itīs true that there were some influences from Asia and Europe in the North.

I respect your view, but I see the evidence as proving the ORIGINS of the ancient People as Being "black". I am not saying that they weren't a "mixed" population because it is evident that they had some admixture. When it comes to the origins of The ancients I think the edivence clearly points to a "Black" African ORIGIN.

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley

[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 24 October 2003).]


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ausar
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Ayazid,the population of Egypt was mostly in Upper Egypt up to the modern era. I would say the negriod element in Egypt was far from minor. It is not racist to say that many of the people of Lower Egypt probally do have lots of foreign ancestry. Even though the Arabic invasion was small in number,Greeks settled the regions of Lower and Middle Egypt and did have an effect on the population there.

Know I agree that most of the era that Lower Egypt was probally coastal type Northern Africans related to the other Africans who lived on the coastal regions of Northern Africa. We must consider that most of the pharoahs came from Upper Egypt and this is also where the civlization originated.

Recently over the years,Lower Egptians,have produced more rapidily than people in Upper Egypt. Around the turn of the century the population was only about 3 million,but know the population in Egypt is over 80 million people. Many Mamelukes,Turks,Kurds,and Arabs settled in the Northern regions,especially Around Cairo. Much of the elite in modern day Egypt are desendants of these people to.


I will agree that the populations of Egypt was heterogenous,but I reject the notation that is was mostly Medditerean. Remeber we are talking about Dyanstic and pre-dyanstic Egyptians.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Ayazid,the population of Egypt was mostly in Upper Egypt up to the modern era. I would say the negriod element in Egypt was far from minor. It is not racist to say that many of the people of Lower Egypt probally do have lots of foreign ancestry. Even though the Arabic invasion was small in number,Greeks settled the regions of Lower and Middle Egypt and did have an effect on the population there.

Know I agree that most of the era that Lower Egypt was probally coastal type Northern Africans related to the other Africans who lived on the coastal regions of Northern Africa. We must consider that most of the pharoahs came from Upper Egypt and this is also where the civlization originated.

Recently over the years,Lower Egptians,have produced more rapidily than people in Upper Egypt. Around the turn of the century the population was only about 3 million,but know the population in Egypt is over 80 million people. Many Mamelukes,Turks,Kurds,and Arabs settled in the Northern regions,especially Around Cairo. Much of the elite in modern day Egypt are desendants of these people to.


I will agree that the populations of Egypt was heterogenous,but I reject the notation that is was mostly Medditerean. Remeber we are talking about Dyanstic and pre-dyanstic Egyptians.


Thank you Ausar! The point I wanted to make was how some scientist seem to disreguard some scientific procedures and way of thinking when it comes to Ancient and modern Egypt. How is it possible to say that all present day egyptians are white when some of them are abvioulsy not? Doesn't this raise a red flag? Why does some countries like America want to make ALL egyptians white so badly that they would classify a dark skinned, kinky haired person white, but at the same time is so prejudiced and sometimes racist towards people of that phenotype? To me it make no sense. Why is it that some current day egyptologist take Heroditus word that Egypt soil was black, but reject his him when he describes the people as black with kinky hair?

As I see it some Egyptoligist are chosing what they want to believe is fact while rejecting anything that does not fit their preconceived notion of who these ancient people were. Do you think these people were so intelligent and kept records of the stars for centuries, but can't keep a record of where they originated? Why do scientist reject that Ancient Egyptians origins are in the south (punt/Sudan) when they said so themself?

If we as humans take all of our biases (Eurocentrism, afrocentrism, and all other "isms") I still believe that there would be enough information that proves that the origins of Ancient Egyptians was indeed a Black African one!

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley


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Amun
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Here we go again... It has always been evident that Egyptians were always different shades of brown. There is asiatic mixture in lower Egypt but its not enough to discount most lower Egyptians as descendants of the ancients. Both lower and upper Egyptians retain a look distinctive from Syrians and Saudis. If I were Egyptian I would be offended.
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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun:
Here we go again... It has always been evident that Egyptians were always different shades of brown. There is asiatic mixture in lower Egypt but its not enough to discount most lower Egyptians as descendants of the ancients. Both lower and upper Egyptians retain a look distinctive from Syrians and Saudis. If I were Egyptian I would be offended.

i've said this too many times before, and i've even posted my reasons for it, but i simply do not believe the majority of lower egyptians descend from kemites. there is too much eveidence to the contrary.

i'm not just on some afro-centrist thing (i'm not qualified enough). but when people make the agrgument that lower egyptians are descended from kemites, they site that the arab invasion was simply not big enough to make a big impact on the population. again, there is evidence to the contrary as i have posted before. not to memtion that the explosion in the population of lower egypt is recent, with many of the immigrants not being egyptians.

this is not a race topic. i'm simply saying that being in lower egypt today does not make you a kemite descendant. if they shared more cultural links with kemites, like upper egyptians do, i'd feel differently. but from where i'm standing, the typical lower egyptian is a relative new comer compared to the typical upper egyptian. the two don't look like different shades of brown, they look like black people and arab people. kemites were not arab. arabs looked different, spoke different, built different kinds of buildings (which you see all over egypt today, so they must have had a decent enough impact on egypt).

i don't want to give the inpression that i have a problem with arabs because i don't. from what i've learned, kemites did some terrible things too. but i live in america, though i don't decend from the same people most americans do. my culture is different, my way of speaking is different. the link is that americans all live here. i do not take offense to people saying that englishmen are not my ancestors.


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Marcus
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quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:
There is actually a big debate to that. Some say the first figure is an Egyptian, but Kent Weeks website (though that doesn't mean Weeks himself wrote it) says it is a Nubian mistaken for an Egyptian. The question is who made the mistake?

Could you post a link to that webpage? I searched Kent Weeks's website for quite some time but was unable to find it.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Marcus:
Could you post a link to that webpage? I searched Kent Weeks's website for quite some time but was unable to find it.

http://www.thebanmappingproject.com

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Amun
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quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

i'm not just on some afro-centrist thing (i'm not qualified enough). but when people make the agrgument that lower egyptians are descended from kemites, they site that the arab invasion was simply not big enough to make a big impact on the population.

I agree. The point I'm making is that Arabs didn't just recently appear in Egypt, Syrio-Palestinian tribes had been settling in the Delta as early as the first dynasty and by the 13th dynasty, the Hyksos entered lower Egypt with little resistance. Egyptologists note a significant increase in the number of Egyptians of high rank with Asiatic names by the 18th dynasty. So it's evident that the descendants of Asiatic immigrants and slaves could assimilate.

quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

again, there is evidence to the contrary as i have posted before. not to memtion that the explosion in the population of lower egypt is recent, with many of the immigrants not being egyptians.

I don't know much about a population explosion. Perhaps you could give more details. It's true that Egypt has had many immigrants over time but what evidence is there supporting an unusual rise in the general population numbers?

quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

this is not a race topic. i'm simply saying that being in lower egypt today does not make you a kemite descendant. if they shared more cultural links with kemites, like upper egyptians do, i'd feel differently.

I agree with the first point but the same goes for upper Egypt. More foriegnors live in lower Egypt but upper Egypt has had foriegnors too. As far as culture goes, more lower Egyptians live in the cities and city dwellers tend to be more cosmopolitan and less bound by cultural traditions. In the US we have regional differences in culture as well. People in NYC live much differently than people in the suburban and rural areas of the American south.

quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

but from where i'm standing, the typical lower egyptian is a relative new comer compared to the typical upper egyptian. the two don't look like different shades of brown, they look like black people and arab people.

To some extent, due to a mix of Arab, greek, and Turkish immigrants, you're right but most Egyptians I've met(I've met lots of Egyptians in NYC and Philadelphia) or seen from Cairo and Alexandria are light to brown skin and they have kinky to wavy hair. I have often mistaken Egyptians for Dominicans, or Puerto Ricans. Rarely have I mistaken an Egyptian for an Arab or Turk. As I said earlier, Egyptians have a distinctive look.

quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

kemites were not arab. arabs looked different, spoke different, built different kinds of buildings (which you see all over egypt today, so they must have had a decent enough impact on egypt).

Kemites were not homogenous. They had 3 to 4 different phenotypes. I have seen little evidence supporting a homogeneous ancient population.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).]


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:
i've said this too many times before, and i've even posted my reasons for it, but i simply do not believe the majority of lower egyptians descend from kemites. there is too much eveidence to the contrary.

i'm not just on some afro-centrist thing (i'm not qualified enough). but when people make the agrgument that lower egyptians are descended from kemites, they site that the arab invasion was simply not big enough to make a big impact on the population. again, there is evidence to the contrary as i have posted before. not to memtion that the explosion in the population of lower egypt is recent, with many of the immigrants not being egyptians.

this is not a race topic. i'm simply saying that being in lower egypt today does not make you a kemite descendant. if they shared more cultural links with kemites, like upper egyptians do, i'd feel differently. but from where i'm standing, the typical lower egyptian is a relative new comer compared to the typical upper egyptian. the two don't look like different shades of brown, they look like black people and arab people. kemites were not arab. arabs looked different, spoke different, built different kinds of buildings (which you see all over egypt today, so they must have had a decent enough impact on egypt).

i don't want to give the inpression that i have a problem with arabs because i don't. from what i've learned, kemites did some terrible things too. but i live in america, though i don't decend from the same people most americans do. my culture is different, my way of speaking is different. the link is that americans all live here. i do not take offense to people saying that englishmen are not my ancestors.


I agree with you Kem-Au. The immigration patterns and cultural aspect indicate that Upper egyptians are the much closer to ancient Egyptians than Upper. Any other area outside of Egypt and maybe the "middle East" historians would see that the Arab north in comprised of mostly foreign people compared to the south which still have alot of the cultural and phenotypic similarities as ancient Egypt. I just don't get the sloppy, "chose when to apply this procedure, chose when to reject that procedure". Had this been any other area of the world, the wishy-washy scientific procedures would be unacceptable.

------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley


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Amun
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Lower Egypt has always been dominated by coastal North Africans and Arabs. The phenotypical contrast between north and south isn't due to invasion, its just due to steady immigration and assimilation.

quote:

The division of Egypt into south and north (upper and lower) may have reflected a conflict between African natives and Asiatic immigrants. The dangerous accentuation of geographic and ethnic differences was resolved for a time when Menes brought the "Two lands" under his united power, promulgated a body of laws that he claimed had been given to him by Thoth, and established the first historic dynasty.

http://www.theology.edu/egypt1.htm

The cultural differences between north and south existed since Egypt's founding. Indigenous Africans founded Egypt but Near Eastern people have dominated lower Egypt for several millenia. Long enough to be considered descendants of kemites.

quote:

During the Second Intermediate Period the foreign Hyksos rulers brought the Delta to prominence by establishing their capital at Avaris in the north-east Delta. These people, who were originally Asiatic immigrants from Canaan, gradually became more and more powerful until they dominated Lower Egypt around the seventeenth century BC, ruling through vassal overlords.

http://www.egyptsites.co.uk/lower/delta/intro/intro.html

By the time the Hyksos came to power in Egypt, the north was already dominated by Asiatics...

quote:

For many centuries the Hyksos capital of Avaris was a lost city and its ancient walls have only been discovered over the past two decades by an Austrian Expedition led by Professor Manfred Bietak, near the modern village of Tell el-Daba. Other important Delta towns have also been re-excavated more thoroughly in recent years with the aid of modern technology. To the north-east of Tell el-Daba, beyond the town of Qantir, is the site of Per-Rameses (Piramesse). This was the Delta estate of Rameses II and capital of the region during Dynasty XIX and early Dynasty XX, after which it was abandoned, leaving little in situ at the site today.

http://www.egyptsites.co.uk/lower/delta/intro/intro.html

As you can see, the descendants of the Hyksos became very powerful in Egypt and eventually challeneged the High Priests of Amun who dominated upper Egypt after the 18th dynasty.


[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).]


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Marcus
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quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

http://www.thebanmappingproject.com

Um, I knew that. I meant the article(?) on his website that discusses the "mural of the races" painting you were talking about. I used the search function on his site but couldn't find it.


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Ozzy
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I have a small dilema, any comments are welcome.

Something that makes this subject rather confusing is talking about a people without specifing a time period. What we call native, aboriginal, or indiginouse depends in part on a time period.

Anyone with a 500 or more history in the new world, such as Australia, America etc could be called if not native at least, American or Australian etc. Some people of the pacific Islands are as recent as 800 years as in the Islands of New Zealand, and they are considered Indiginouse.

I dont think anyone would deny any of those or Us our claim to be of those nations regardless of how far back our history goes.

(PS I do understand the difference between native, aboriginal, or indiginouse )

England has a history of invasion and settlement, over a less period than Egypt but no one would deny any Englishman the right to be called English. Regardless of if they were decended from the original inhabitants or Normans or Anglo-Saxons or Romans or Germanic tribes or Vikings, or any other minority that introduced their DNA into the population.

So when we talk of who is Egyptian or who were the Ancient Egyptians, how far do we go back,? 500 years? 2000 years? 3000? years, 5000? years, or 10,000 years?. Each of these would give you a different answer.

If we take the start of the dynasties or earlier as the mark then only a small part of the current population could lay any clam to the title. And even that would be debatable.

But even then how can we denie those who came after, all the way to the last Dynasty that contributed to the civilisation, the right to call themselves Ancient Kemitians? As without them, the history and grandure of the civilisation may not have existed as we know it today.

So can we clear something up here please, who do we call Ancient Kemitians? what time period do we give to this clasification?.

Anything beyond this point in time I think we could call "all" who have been born in to this country, to this very day "Egyptian". Before this date there lyes the debate.

My second dilema lies before this date,

There is evidence that North African types as we know them today existed some 10,000 years ago, maybe as i believe from different migrations up and down the firtile crest over 10s of thousands of years. They dwelt mainly in the Lower Nile. Regardless of who began the Dynasties, the uper and Lower Nile were in contact, interacted and at an early period maybe even united.

So there were at least two distinct groups along the nile as far back as 10,000 years ago.

So on what criteria do we give to establish who were the Ancient Kemitians?

The people who established the Dynasties? Which may be the Upper Egyptians, which excludes the Lower Egyptians from the title. Although the Lower Egyptians existed as early and may have contributed as much as Upper Egypt, but not as a governing body. Does this make hem less able to claim themselves as Ancient egyptians.

The Families who maintained the Dynasties? who may have even been from an area which may not have even represented the majority population of Ancient egypt at the time.

Or the Archelogical evidance of peoples prior to the dynasties?. Who may have not been the same as the founding peoples of the Dynasties.

All of the above,(And there are many more) will also give you a different answer.

Anyone have a yard stick?


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ausar
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''don't know much about a population explosion. Perhaps you could give more details. It's true that Egypt has had many immigrants over time but what evidence is there supporting an unusual rise in the general population numbers? ''

Amun,Lower Egypt has had large amounts of birth-rates as compared to Upper Egypt. The population around 1865 was only about three miliion;however due to the increase of living standards under Mohammed Ali the population grew to the number that it is know. Right know it is about 83 million,and climbling each year.

At one time during the Greco-Roman era Egyptians were not even allowed to go into the city of Alexzandria. Greek forbade mixing with Egyptians in the colony of Naukratis[sp],but in other Greek city states through out Egypt Greek freely mixed with Egyptians. See the book the following book:Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan Bowman. Of course this had little effect on Upper Egyptian villages,but I am sure that regions like Fayium,El Minya,and other places in Middle Egypt there was a effect.

''I agree with the first point but the same goes for upper Egypt. More foriegnors live in lower Egypt but upper Egypt has had foriegnors too. As far as culture goes, more lower Egyptians live in the cities and city dwellers tend to be more cosmopolitan and less bound by cultural traditions. In the US we have regional differences in culture as well. People in NYC live much differently than people in the suburban and rural areas of the American south.''

This is certainly a good point about the regional differences in Upper and Lower Egypt. You are certainly correct that foreginers do exist in Upper Egypt. Jews,according to the Book Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan Bowman,have lived in Thebes[Waset],Aswam[Elephantine],and sections of Middle Egypt, So foreginers have existed in these regions for quite a while;at least since the Persian Era in Egypt these people have existed in these region,and perhaps going further back.

For instance,Gamal Abdel Nasser,a strong proponent for pan_Arabization, was from around Middle Egypt. His family had come from wealthy Arabs who came from Hijaz settling in Middle Egypt. One physical apperance that set Nasser apart from other Egyptians was his noses,for his nose was not an Egyptian nose,but an Arab one. The common epitah for ''Asiatic Arabs'' is the term Shamy. The other foreginers in Upper Egypt are Horobat[tomb robbers],Jamasah[bedouins who fled Makkah,and it is forbidden to marry them],and Yemani bedouins[rarely do sa3eadi marry these people,but intermarriage has happened.


As far as the murals of race,Egyptians colored themselves Reddish brown for puposes to distinguish themselves from foreginers. This was not realistic at all,but simply symbolic in nature. Not untill the 18th dyansty do we see depictions of Upper Egyptians in the tombs of Ramose,Ipuy,Sennefer,and others that reflects the realistic color of the indivuals.


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ausar
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''The people who established the Dynasties? Which may be the Upper Egyptians, which excludes the Lower Egyptians from the title. Although the Lower Egyptians existed as early and may have contributed as much as Upper Egypt, but not as a governing body. Does this make hem less able to claim themselves as Ancient egyptians.''

Prior to unification of the two lands according to the Palermo Stone existed two sets of kingdoms ne kingdom was in Lower Egypt called the Souls of Pe,and the other known as the Souls of Nekhen. You have the Badarian,Naquda I,II,III,Tasins. In the Lower region of Egypt you have the Merimada,Fayium,Maadi,El Omari,and others.

To the south you have the Khartoum Mesolithic,A-group Nubia which are all contemporary with Badarian culture. Also there exists a archeological site called Nabta Playa which contains cattle burials that reflect the Old Kingdom traditions of the significance of cattle in whorship. These populations come from the Central Sahara

Going to as far back as the Naquda II culture,Lower Egypt starts to adapt cultural traits from Upper Egyptians,such as pottery,whorship,and etc.

It should be noted though that the 1st dyansty pharoah of Menna married a person from the Delta to legitmize his title of ruler of Upper and Lower Egypt.


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Ozzy
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I think Lower Egypt is undersetimated, due to its lack of Archelogical evidance, Unfortunately the landscape does not lend itself to preservation like the Upper nile does. But as I have said before i dont believe the lack of evidance is evidance of absence.

In regards to culture influence from Upper over Lower egypt, in Ancient times, do you know of evidence of this prior to 2000bc? Many of there gods, like neith are said to have their origins in the Lower Nile.


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Amun
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:

There is evidence that North African types as we know them today existed some 10,000 years ago, maybe as i believe from different migrations up and down the firtile crest over 10s of thousands of years. They dwelt mainly in the Lower Nile. Regardless of who began the Dynasties, the uper and Lower Nile were in contact, interacted and at an early period maybe even united.

So there were at least two distinct groups along the nile as far back as 10,000 years ago.


That is the point I have been trying to make. It appears upper Egyptian rulers founded Egypt and united both the north and south yet lower Egyptians did make contributions in technology and trade. Even if they made no contributions at all, they were one nation of people, not duel nations.



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Ozzy
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Amun, I agree totaly. to deny them would be to deny current Amercan indians their identity, it would be to deny, the last wave into Australia thier identity, the Japanese theirs against the Ainu, some later classes of Indians, etc etc etc. Do people realise how many areas were repopulated or intergrated at a simular time period all around the world. At what period do we start and what period do we end?

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 26 October 2003).]


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun:
Lower Egypt has always been dominated by coastal North Africans and Arabs. The phenotypical contrast between north and south isn't due to invasion, its just due to steady immigration and assimilation.

[QUOTE]
The division of Egypt into south and north (upper and lower) may have reflected a conflict between African natives and Asiatic immigrants. The dangerous accentuation of geographic and ethnic differences was resolved for a time when Menes brought the "Two lands" under his united power, promulgated a body of laws that he claimed had been given to him by Thoth, and established the first historic dynasty.


http://www.theology.edu/egypt1.htm

The cultural differences between north and south existed since Egypt's founding. Indigenous Africans founded Egypt but Near Eastern people have dominated lower Egypt for several millenia. Long enough to be considered descendants of kemites.

quote:

During the Second Intermediate Period the foreign Hyksos rulers brought the Delta to prominence by establishing their capital at Avaris in the north-east Delta. These people, who were originally Asiatic immigrants from Canaan, gradually became more and more powerful until they dominated Lower Egypt around the seventeenth century BC, ruling through vassal overlords.

http://www.egyptsites.co.uk/lower/delta/intro/intro.html

By the time the Hyksos came to power in Egypt, the north was already dominated by Asiatics...

quote:

For many centuries the Hyksos capital of Avaris was a lost city and its ancient walls have only been discovered over the past two decades by an Austrian Expedition led by Professor Manfred Bietak, near the modern village of Tell el-Daba. Other important Delta towns have also been re-excavated more thoroughly in recent years with the aid of modern technology. To the north-east of Tell el-Daba, beyond the town of Qantir, is the site of Per-Rameses (Piramesse). This was the Delta estate of Rameses II and capital of the region during Dynasty XIX and early Dynasty XX, after which it was abandoned, leaving little in situ at the site today.

http://www.egyptsites.co.uk/lower/delta/intro/intro.html

As you can see, the descendants of the Hyksos became very powerful in Egypt and eventually challeneged the High Priests of Amun who dominated upper Egypt after the 18th dynasty.


[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 26 October 2003).][/QUOTE]

the info on that first link is extremely debateable. it's basically using the egypt has more in common with near east asia argument. on top of the fact that it's a biblical web site.

as far as the delta region, the asiatic mixture in that region is known, the percentage is not. what is known is that it was not as populated as upper egypt in dynastic times.

but i think the main issue here is that people can't get past the race issue here. it almost sounds like you're arguing that there was a strong asian (or maybe non-negro?) presence in lower egypt in dynastic times. there may well have been. i've never disputed that. and i'm also not saying that these supposed non-negroes were not egyptians. asian wanderers (who did not look like other egyptians to the south?) may have always existed there since pre-dynastic times. again, i've never argued this and i have no interest in trying to disprove it.

what i am saying is that the arab (muslims from arabia which indicates no racial identification) presence today that i see so much of in lower egypt today is probably not descended from dynastic egypt. i think they're presence in egypt basically begins with the arab invasions.

i know the asian presence grew since the decline of the middle kingdom, and exploded with the multiple conquests of asian civilizations. but the arab muslims were a distinct group.

i think too many people are trying to see this as a race issue and twisting my argument to say that lower egyptians aren't native egypt because they don't look like black people. i do believe that it is very debateable whether a large percentage of modern lower egyptians are descended from pharonic egypt, but not because of them not looking black. the respect (or lack thereof) arabs show to ancient egyptian practices should tell us something.


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Amun
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Kem-Au,

There was a strong non-African element in lower Egypt even prior to unification. To think anything otherwise is just speculation. It may have been a mix of coastal North African types with nomadic tribes from Palestine but the predynastic lower Egyptians were found to be culturally and phenotypically differnt from upper Egyptians. However, the cultural differences for the most part disappeared after unification in 3000 B.C.. The next major migration from the Near East into lower Egypt happened during the Second Intermediate period but records show that these immigrants, even the Hyksos, adopted Egyptian culture.
The Ramsesside family of 19th dynasty came from the Nile Delta near the Hyksos capital of Avaris and could very well have been descendants of the Hyksos. Most of those Asiatic migrants DID assimilate and become Egyptians. The point I'm making is that just because lower Egyptians may not all descend from the upper Egyptian founders of Egypt doesn't mean they can't claim to be descendants of the Kemites. It's especially wrong when you condiser how far back Asiatc settlements in Egypt go.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun:
Kem-Au,

There was a strong non-African element in lower Egypt even prior to unification. To think anything otherwise is just speculation. It may have been a mix of coastal North African types with nomadic tribes from Palestine but the predynastic lower Egyptians were found to be culturally and phenotypically differnt from upper Egyptians. However, the cultural differences for the most part disappeared after unification in 3000 B.C.. The next major migration from the Near East into lower Egypt happened during the Second Intermediate period but records show that these immigrants, even the Hyksos, adopted Egyptian culture.
The Ramsesside family of 19th dynasty came from the Nile Delta near the Hyksos capital of Avaris and could very well have been descendants of the Hyksos. Most of those Asiatic migrants DID assimilate and become Egyptians. The point I'm making is that just because lower Egyptians may not all descend from the upper Egyptian founders of Egypt doesn't mean they can't claim to be descendants of the Kemites. It's especially wrong when you condiser how far back Asiatc settlements in Egypt go.


and again, we are not arguing the same points. my original point was that many lower egyptians are probably descended from arabs from various parts of southwest asia who entered egypt after the mid 7th century. and not descended from kemites from pharonic egypt, regardless of their ethnicity.

any asians who took on kemite ways were probably expelled (or enslaved) by the arabs from lower egypt just like any native africans would've been.

i think the confusion is that you're linking modern day arabs to the asian presence in kemet. i'm not. i'm saying that the arabs who occupy much of lower egypt now are not the same people as the asians who lived in pharonic egypt.


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Ozzy
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Kem, keep in mind the title of the thread is "What race were the Egyptians? - A clever "controversy" , If yours or anyones comments are misunderstood then one could be forgiven making the mistake.

Its just a thought, but as this topic is not going to go away, and maybe it shouldnt, so should we keep a thread open with the topic, and leave it out of others if we can help it. If it relates to another topic it can be refered to that topic but remain in this or a simular one. Just a thought to keep it in check. We all have POVS but maybe it does not belong in some topics but it does in others.

Thoughts???


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Amun
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quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:
and again, we are not arguing the same points. my original point was that many lower egyptians are probably descended from arabs from various parts of southwest asia who entered egypt after the mid 7th century. and not descended from kemites from pharonic egypt, regardless of their ethnicity.

This is true for some parts of lower Egypt, especially the metropolitan areas like Cairo and Alexandria, but there are villages which haven't been affected by foriegnors over many centuries. There has always been a slow but steady migration of people from the Near East into Egypt. These migrants don't seem to have affected the population outside the cities.

quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

any asians who took on kemite ways were probably expelled (or enslaved) by the arabs from lower egypt just like any native africans would've been.

This is speculation. The Arabs who invaded in the 7th century AD were small in number and faced some but not much resistance from the natives who were happy to have anyone but the Romans in power. You make it seem like it was coloniztion as opposed to an invasion. Arabic wasn’t even widely spoken in Egypt until several centuries later.

quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:

i think the confusion is that you're linking modern day arabs to the asian presence in kemet. i'm not. i'm saying that the arabs who occupy much of lower egypt now are not the same people as the asians who lived in pharonic egypt.

I agree but I'm saying that the Arabs who occupy Egypt are a minority and for the most part, don't claim ancient Egyptian ancestry anyway. There are many in the cities who mixed with Europeans and Arabs if that's what you are referring to when you speak of those who look Arab but even those who are mixed often maintain some of the distinctive Egyptian phenotypes like wide noses and kinky hair.

[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 27 October 2003).]


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Ayazid
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http://www.ifad.org/photo/region/PN/EG.htm

This is very interessant album with some photos of fellaheen from the middle Egypt,
some of them have probably certain black admixture, but majority have relatively strong mediterrean appearance. So,they are a kind of "missing link" between light lower Egyptias from the North which are similar to Syrians or Palestines and dark-skinned upper Egyptians which have relatively distinct negroid admixture.Personally,I think that they are most similar to original Arabs like Saudis or Yemenis.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayazid:
http://www.ifad.org/photo/region/PN/EG.htm

This is very interessant album with some photos of fellaheen from the middle Egypt,
some of them have probably certain black admixture, but majority have relatively strong mediterrean appearance. So,they are a kind of "missing link" between light lower Egyptias from the North which are similar to Syrians or Palestines and dark-skinned upper Egyptians which have relatively distinct negroid admixture.Personally,I think that they are most similar to original Arabs like Saudis or Yemenis.


I think Egyptians are the most misrepresented people on this earth. I guess since the big cities like Cairo are mostly the arab phenotype and they are the ones with money, they can afford travel and get outside of egypt more than the other areas. But why is it that their government and the US government want to paint that whole population as white? Egypt is definitely one country that I will visit very soon. I would like to form an unbiased first hand opinion of the country myself.

Can anyone tell me how are egyptians towards foreigners? Would me (black) and my girlfreind (white) have any problems? I know race is not a big issue amongst egyptians but how is their perception of race when it comes to foreigners.


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Keino
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I must say that I have learned so much from this board. I am very glad to hear all of the facts and opinions (even ones I don't agree with).

Jah luv


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ausar
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Keino,I don't think you would have any problem with visiting Egypt with a white girlfriend. You might have some difficuluty if you are an American,but not because of having a white girlfriend.

When you go to Egypt just don't refuse tea or an invitation to go into someone's house. Egyptians consider people who do this to be rude. Also tell your girlfriend to dress conservativly,because Egyptian men will touch and feel on that wear loose clothing. This often occurs on buses and subways in Cairo.

Make sure when you visit Egypt to go to more than just the pyramids. Also take the time to visit the Baladi neighboorhoods,and the country side.


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Ozzy
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Keino, I take it you didnt agree with the description given to the last set of photos.
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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Keino,I don't think you would have any problem with visiting Egypt with a white girlfriend. You might have some difficuluty if you are an American,but not because of having a white girlfriend.

When you go to Egypt just don't refuse tea or an invitation to go into someone's house. Egyptians consider people who do this to be rude. Also tell your girlfriend to dress conservativly,because Egyptian men will touch and feel on that wear loose clothing. This often occurs on buses and subways in Cairo.

Make sure when you visit Egypt to go to more than just the pyramids. Also take the time to visit the Baladi neighboorhoods,and the country side.


So it sounds like an American will have to try to blend in as much as possible. Will an American have problems in both upper and lower egypt? I remember you saying upper egyptians were very friendly people.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
Keino, I take it you didnt agree with the description given to the last set of photos.

Not at all, the pictures were very nice! Present day egyptian are a very diverse phenotype just as america is today. Many of those people look either indian or biracial which in america "biracial" would be considered as "black". But that's not my point. I was just saying how in the main stream media and even with the "richer" egyptians we see today (ones that can afford to travel and are more likely of "arab" phenotype because the have more money) represent only a small part of the phenotype that exists in that country. Saying that all egyptians are white or black or arab is ludicrous and is equivelant to saying that all americans are black. I don't understand how the Egyptian government as well as america "bleach" the whole country and say that all egyptians are "white". Why is that? What is the purpose?

The scenario kind reminds me of my Vietmanese friend. When she came to America she only saw black people for the first day and she thought that america was made up of only black people. How funny right?! It wasn't until she moved outside of the urban areas during the following days that she saw the plethra of phenotypes in america.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Keino,I don't think you would have any problem with visiting Egypt with a white girlfriend. You might have some difficuluty if you are an American,but not because of having a white girlfriend.

When you go to Egypt just don't refuse tea or an invitation to go into someone's house. Egyptians consider people who do this to be rude. Also tell your girlfriend to dress conservativly,because Egyptian men will touch and feel on that wear loose clothing. This often occurs on buses and subways in Cairo.

Make sure when you visit Egypt to go to more than just the pyramids. Also take the time to visit the Baladi neighboorhoods,and the country side.


I am not American, but I am from the West Indies. I would love to visit and get the real native experience, but I my girlfriend felt that she would stand out like a sore thumb and draw unwanted attention because she is American especially in these times of war. Several times I have been mistaken for Ethiopian and I have no idea why.

I have heard of the horror stories of American women being harrassed in many muslim countries even when they are dressed appropriately. I think they have a view of Americans being freaky and loose women because of the horrible, one dimentional view they get from the media.

How are the laws concerning sharing housing and beng unmarried? Is that a No-No in Egypt?


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Ayazid
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http://egypt.picturecontact.com/

Keino, you can look there and if you will search keywords Sinai, you will see that original Arabs from Arabia are not so "white" how you think that they are.The people from Syria,Libanon and Palestina are probably most light Arabs which I see.These have not "white" skin.


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Ozzy
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I have been involved in the Hotel business for most of my working life and travled a bit. I have not been to Egypt but I have been to Muslim countries, and worked in Asian muslim countries. In fear of being very general about American tourists, many found themselves in trouble for simply being American. What I mean by that is that many visitors from other countries would try to blend in as much as possible, asking questions on behaviour, dos and donts, dress, ETC. And we often had material for visitors to read before interacting with the public. This was more so in the reginal areas by the way. We found however that Americans remained Umm well, Americans. They had a "world is Dysney land" type of mentality. This by no means represented all Americans, I dont mean to affend.

In Muslim Asia we experience what many Americans would come accross in other countries, as Australians and Spanish are not the most welcome nations In Indonesia, Malasia, Timor etc.

With two young children we have been pulled up at gun point, had men touch my wife and my children, mostly out of couriosity more than molestation, and numurouse other situations. My wife is dark but my Daughter is Blond and very light skinned, she has been the object of couriosity many times. She got so used to people touching her hair and her face she is no longer fased by it.

The thing that has worked for us were ever we have gone is "when in Rome do as the romans do". I think you will find that the touching thing is more often harmless untill a big deal is made of it. Its usualy the hair, hands and the face. But having never been to Egypt I am only projecting my experiences on the people who live there and I may be wrong.


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ausar
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Kam-au,yes Upper Egyptians are much nicer than the people who live in the city. Also many Upper Egyptian depend upon selling novelities or other assorted items to substaniate their living.

Keino, Egypt follow's the Sharia law which is set by the Quran. Having pre-martial sex in Egypt is totally ''haram''[forbidden] Women in villages usually get floggings with bamboo if this rule is broken. However,Egyptian being very liberal,I am sure pre-martial sex happens all the time without following the Sharia law. As far as know Egypt does not honor livin relationships,but I am sure they do happen in the city of Cairo.



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ausar
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Interesting you point out the blonde hair fasination,because in Egypt rual Egyptians will often run in fear of red haired people on first apperance. This probally goes back to the pharoanic days when Set represented the Western desert soil that was red;thus signifying all red colored objects from animals to even hair.

However,some blondes do exist in Egypt,but this is only because of rape by Napolean's troops. This is mainly in Masnoura[Lower Egypt],so even there they are in great minority.

Anyway,Ayazid I believe the original Arabs came from Yemeni culture known as ther Himyar. However,there is some evidence that possibly Africans brought the Semetic language across the Red Sea;as opposed to Semites bringing Semetic to Africans across the Red Sea from the ''Middle East''

Christopher Ehret,leading linguist at UCLA, seems to agree that the Semetic brach broke off from the Ethiopian highlands possibly bringing it into parts of Southern Yemen where it brached off. Some linguist believe that possibly Semetic was a early break off language that diversified being adapted by various different people. So we will not know this for sure untill a comprehensive reconstruction of Afro-Asiatic is done from Ormotic to Semetic to the know extinct ancient Egyptian language.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:

Keino, Egypt follow's the Sharia law which is set by the Quran. Having pre-martial sex in Egypt is totally ''haram''[forbidden] Women in villages usually get floggings with bamboo if this rule is broken. However,Egyptian being very liberal,I am sure pre-martial sex happens all the time without following the Sharia law. As far as know Egypt does not honor livin relationships,but I am sure they do happen in the city of Cairo.

interesting considering how sexually liberal the ancient egyptians were.


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Ayazid
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I think that to say all Arabs are "white" is nonsense, if you will look on this site and will search keyword Sinai you will see relatively dark-skined bedouins which are original Arabs, they have not negroid appearance but they are realatively dark-skinned mediterreans.
http://egypt.picturecontact.com/

I think that Gamal Abdannasser was not erent from average Egyptians.


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Ayazid
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I think that Gamal Abdannasser was not diferrent from average Egyptian.

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Ayazid
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I think that itīs catastrophe when foreigners write about race of the Ancient Egyptians, especially Americans: there is too big tradition of racial particularism and clear-cut and incisive racial feeling.Some opinions which I read here are really awkward!
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ausar
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''I think that Gamal Abdannasser was not diferrent from average Egyptian.''

Actually,Nasser was very different than the average Egyptian because his heritage was mostly Arab. I believe Nasser mother came from El Minya. It was his nose that set him apart;not really his phenotype.

Plus those so called Bedouins you see have mixed with African slaves that were brought there many years ago in the Arab slave trade.


Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun
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Here is an objective essay on the race(s) of the ancient Egyptians:

quote:

The Question of Race in ancient Egypt
A disputed terrain

The human catastrophe of early modern slavery juxtaposed west and central Africans with northwest Europeans in the Americas. Out of this genocidal experience, race has become a dominant category for uniting and dividing people in modernity. Within the race debate, ancient Egypt has become a terrain contested by three mutually exclusive views:

modern Egyptian: the ancient Egyptians are the same group of people as the modern Egyptians
Afrocentric: the ancient Egyptians were black Africans, displaced by later movements of peoples, for example the Macedonian, Roman and Arab conquests
Eurocentric: the ancient Egyptians are ancestral to modern Europe
Sources

1. Human remains: The direct evidence for debating the question is the ancient population as it survives in human remains. There are two dominant problems:

published physical anthropological study of groups remains astonishingly rare, with most attention going to studies of a single individual
objectivity remains elusive within the race debate, and is perhaps impossible
The contributions by Keita are outstanding exceptions to the general lack of both demographic study and objectivity (Keita 1990; Keita 1992). DNA research is expected to transform this debate, though self-critical consciousness is not always displayed by proponents.

2. Material culture: Archaeology also provides evidence for supraregional groupings of peoples, by revealing which areas shared, and which areas differed in, material culture: however, modernity abounds in examples of shared material culture exported across cultural divides (for example, cans of North American soft drinks in the Arab world).

3. Language groups: Another broad category of evidence is language: here again, though, the modern world illustrates the use of the same language across different groupings.

A social constructivist might conclude that ethnicity is, like everything else in human societies, a socially agreed category combining geographical and historical origins. An Afrocentric historian might reply that such an attitude amounts to a European strategy to defuse the issue of race, now that it undermines as much as reinforces European and North American domination. The terrain is still contested.

An ancient Egyptian view on race?

The question of race can be approached from another vantage-point: how did the ancient Egyptians group human beings? For this question, there are more diverse published sources, including pictorial and written.

Pictorial sources: differences in depicting peoples include differences in

skin colour
facial features
hair
costume
material culture (tools, weapons, other artificial products)
Substantive differences can only be verified from observation of the original, or from good photographic reproductions; an Egyptological publication may assert clear differences in skin colour and facial features, where the original depiction is not clear or reveals no difference. The various types of difference may be borne out in the archaeological record. Examples on this website include:

distinctive treatment of hair and different material culture and burial customs revealed in 'Pan Grave burials' of the Second Intermediate Period
the blonde hair and burnt groups found by Petrie at the New Kingdom palace town at Gurob
different pottery traditions between local (Nubian) and intrusive (Egyptian), among finds from the Egyptian smelting colony at Buhen in Nubia, Old Kingdom

Written sources: in their writing, people (at least the writers) may define themselves or others as the same or different. Written sources for the ancient Egyptian categories include references to foreign lands (see on this website the translation of the Hymns to Senusret III) and lists of words for types of people (see on this website the page on the Onomasticon of Amenemipet, from the late New Kingdom, after 1300 BC). The Great Hymn to the Sun, from the reign of Akhenaten, ascribes differences in skin colour and language to the will of the creator, in a divine impetus towards diversity as an expression of creation. In these sources, there is, though, no ancient Egyptian definition of Egyptianness: in the Prophecy of Neferty (a literary composition, probably of the Middle Kingdom), Egypt seems to be defined in contrast to the Asiatics encroaching on the eastern fringes of the Delta, but this is a central motif of the composition, and therefore it is too closely tied to its context to be able to provide a more generally applicable definition.

Together, the pictorial and written sources indicate most often four broad divisions of human beings, as in the Underworld Books (in tombs of kings in the New Kingdom):

Egyptians
those living to the south (Nubians and others)
those living to the west (western nomads, 'Libyans' in the sense of anyone living west of the Nile and south of the Mediterranean)
those living to the east (Asiatics)
Rarer references to peoples from the north include, from the Middle Kingdom, the Keftiu (Minoans from Crete), and from the New Kingdom the Mycenaeans (from mainland Greece) and the Hittites (from the central and eastern part of modern-day Turkey). At the end of the New Kingdom, other peoples of the north appear, sometimes called 'peoples of the sea' or 'in their islands', with distinctive costume and headgear; they have been identified in some studies as Aegean island and coastal groups emerging at the breakdown of the Hittite Empire. See foreign contacts.

A definition of 'ancient Egyptian' in an ancient Greek tale

The fifth century BC Greek writer Herodotus records a legal dispute that provides one definition of Egyptian identity: a community on the western Delta fringes argued that it should not pay tax, because it was outside Egypt, but the oracle consulted in the case gave the answer that all who drank of the Nile north of Elephantine were Egyptians (Herodotus Book II, 18).

Two features set Elephantine as a natural southern border for this Nile Valley Egypt:

communications: travelling south from the Mediterranean, Elephantine heralds the first group of rocks impeding river travel (the First Cataract in the Nile Valley), and so it presents a natural communications border to the area of relatively free travel
linguistic: the area was unified by one language, Egyptian


http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/social/race.html

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Ozzy
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Very well done.
Posts: 448 | From: Australian living in Spain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Wally
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To Wally: your description of this picture is not correct: first figure is surely Nubian, second is Lybian, third is other Nubian and fourth is Semite.You must use faithful informations!

This posting is typical of the subsequent postings following my initial one. It reveals the sheer ignorance and arrogance on the subject matter! It also reveals a rationale which, in order to deny reality, seeks to debate the messenger(me) and not the message(from the Ancient Egyptians themselves.) It is not MY description of the mural! It is the Ancient Egyptians' own description! Faithful information?? No Egyptologist, anywhere, would deby the accuracy of my translation of the words on the Ancient Egyptian 'mural of the races.'

The Ancient Egyptians, ultimately, have the final say as to who they were as a people, so debate them!


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Wally
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To Wally: your description of this picture is not correct: first figure is surely Nubian, second is Lybian, third is other Nubian and fourth is Semite.You must use faithful informations!

This posting is typical of the subsequent postings following my initial one. It reveals the sheer ignorance and arrogance on the subject matter! It also reveals a rationale which, in order to deny reality, seeks to debate the messenger(me) and not the message(from the Ancient Egyptians themselves.) It is not MY description of the mural! It is the Ancient Egyptians' own description! Faithful information?? No Egyptologist, anywhere would debate the accuracy of my translation of the words on the Ancient Egyptian 'mural of the races.'

The Ancient Egyptians, ultimately, have the final say as to who they were as a people, so debate them!


Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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