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Author Topic: What race were the Egyptians? - A clever "controversy"
Wally
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Third times the charm: The above sentence should read "No Egyptologist, anywhere, would deny the accuracy of my translation of Ret;Namu;Nahasu;Tamhu."
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multisphinx
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how yall doin it is verry interesting to read what u all had to say i learned alot, i am egyption but i was born in the US, i know how is is with the race thing in the US i just dont see it as a right thing to put egyptions as a white people,when the majority is not. Now i am dark in skin with a light brownish tint to my skin, i a have rough black hair. my parents, are not from either alxandria or ciaro, my parents are from two different villiges, my pops is from a falahi villige, and my mother is from a city in lower egypt. my moms side of the family is part light skinned and part dark, most have black people characteristics as klinky hair big lips. My dads side on the other hand is fully dark brown, they have every feature of a african person, if they were to live in the US Americans would see them as a black people. When i went to visit egypt a couple of summers ago i visited all over, went to ciaro, alexandria, al over the place. i saw many people of different colors and backgrounds, what i am trying to say is that lower egpypt does not only have light colored folks, there is brown, black u name it.
The white people u might find there could be a mixture of arab, greek, berb, libyan, ect... but they also got african in them. I know one family from alxandria, where every member in the family is different. the father is dark with rough thick black hair, the mother is dark with staight hair, the daughter is pale white with long striaght hair, the two sons are different, one has a dark skin, with black klinky hair, the other pale with the same kind of hair. no i dont know how the bakground of the rest of the family, but i believe it is similar.
The only way this family could have gotton these features is if they were have some african in them. the point i am tryin to bring up is that eventhough, egyptions consider themselves to be arab, they should not be considered to have the same race as arabs, eventhough we might have a minority of whites who carry the wealth of the country,we should not be labled as a caucasian people, when the majority is not. i am just a student and i came here to learn so give me some feed back on what you guys think.

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ausar
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I am originally from Aswan around Kom Ombo where my family have lived before many moved to America. Traditionally,I am what people call a Sa3eadi and typically Sa3eadi people from Luxor to Aswan are dark brown with tightly curled to wavy type hair. Unlike other Egyptians,we still have many our same pharoanic traditions that go back to the days of the per-aa or pharoah.

You said your mother is from Lower Egypt,but is your father from Upper Egypt? If so which part is he from?


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multisphinx
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he is from a felahine village on the boarder line of middle and lower egypt, i think. this would make him more a decendent of the kemetis, because most of the people in the small village all are dark brown, some saidi their too, they be sellin lib. my mother family could be a city dweller, from one side of her family and that would be her moms side, her father side is a falhee person. mY GRAND FATHER is dark brown with the klinky hair he is the only one from his family alive thou so i dont have any info on his relitives.
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ausar
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Did you know that many Egyptians living in rural villages have many customs that go back to the ancient Kemetians. Are you aware of this,multisphinx.

I am glad you introduced yourself and you being an Egyptian I hope you will explore deeper in your past than what is premitted in modern Egypt. A good reserch project for you if you can do is document customs,rituals,and traditions in both the balady neighboorhoods and in rural villages in Upper and Lower Egypt that go back in deep antiquity.

Welcome to the messageboard. Feel free to ask me any questions you wish.

Sounds like your father is probally from somewhere near El Minya. People in this region,although not technically Sa3eadi,still pocess many customs of the ancient Egyptians. A British anthropologist named Winfried S.Blackman did a book called the Fellahin of Upper Egypt documenting the customs that still persists in this region.


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Horemheb
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egyptiangurl...good luck, these guys have decided that Egypt is a black civilization and if King Tut came back and told them otherwise they would say his memory was faulty.
"Americans preoccupied with race?" Where did that come from? America is the worlds greatest melting pot, we have people from everywhere living here and basically everyone gets along fine. I see no preoccupation with race at all.

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ausar
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Horemheb said:egyptiangurl...good luck, these guys have decided that Egypt is a black civilization and if King Tut came back and told them otherwise they would say his memory was faulty.
"Americans preoccupied with race?" Where did that come from? America is the worlds greatest melting pot, we have people from everywhere living here and basically everyone gets along fine. I see no preoccupation with race at all.''
Ausar responds:
If any ancient Egyptians came back to our modern era they would have no concept of race like we don in modern times. Ancient Egyptians themselves never were concerned about racial attributes but about loyalthy to the Egyptian nation. We don't need for ancient Egyptians to appear out of a time flux,for ther actual desendants still live in Upper and Lower Egypt. Make what you will of their ethnic composition,but I can assure you that many ''black'' Egyptians existed and do exist today in many parts of Egypt.



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Ayazid
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http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=4125

Very interesting article ...


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Horemheb
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Actually, it is more complicated than he describes. Race varies a great deal in Latin America from one place to another. In Mexico 86% of the population is full blooded Indian with no foreign blood. The Spanish sent very few actual colonists to Mexico and in the 19th century revolutions the Indian population took control of the government and has held it ever since. To really understand the issues you would have to look at each country. The United states has made great strides helping Latin America make economic progress.
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Ozzy
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Horemheb, I can not say that my reading supports much of what you say and my opinions differ greatly, but I am interested to know what your reading and beliefs are on the origins of the Egyptians,

Re;

1. Where the Upper and lower Egyptian kingdoms started.

2. By whom they were started (what people).

3. When they migrated there.

4. Where they migrated from.

5. What influences (Technology) they brought with them.

6 What customes they adopted from natives.

And anything else you can add.

This is not to start another debate, I would just like to know what conclusions you have come to, and how.

Ozzy


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Horemheb
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Ozzy...I have a variety of posts on the AE's all over this site. I think I quoted a stack of studies which support the idea that AE was a Med. civilization first and foremost. That said, I think Ausar is very bright and well prepared on the issue.
Keep this in mind....there is no civilization in sub Saharan Africa nearly as advanced as AE but there are many in the neareast and Med. that share similar characteristics. I have a good friend who teaches ancient Greece and he feels that the greeks really benifited more from the Egyptians than they have been given credit for. We know they had a substantial trade and cultural exchange. It may be that before the smoke clears we find Nubia much more advanced than anyone previously thought.
I think those that want to put AE into an African model have a hard sell. No doubt they had strong African influences as Ausar points out but they fit much more colsely into the near eastern model, especially after you get into Pharonic times.
Were you questioning my Latin American comments? If so we can say much more.

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ausar
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I am curious if you realize that Egypt was not a urbanized culture like the Near-East. Egypt never had settled cities like Mesopotamia nor did the Near East have anything like mumifcation or the death rites that ancient Egypt had.

I cited archeological evidence found over the years that clearly demonstrated that Egyptians in Upper Egypt were ethnically African. Could you tell me some cultural traits that ancient Egyptian soceity had with Western Asia besides a ''supposed' genetic connection?

If Egyptians were like other Medditerean people then why are their culture so much matriarhical compared to patriarhical? Remeber also that prior to the Myceanns in Greece you had Minoans that were probally not ethnically like Greeks.

Be careful how you use sub-Saharan because this did not exist dduring the Neolithic times when the Sahara was more moist. Most of the Sahara during the Neolithic times was black with some costal Maghrebian elements. The culture of ther Central Sahara had a complex burial rituals and mummified their dead.


Tell me also if female circumscision is praticed by either Near Eastern or Medditerean people. This is praticed in rural Egyptian villages and Strabo pointed out that this was a common pratice. Both Christains and Muslims in Egypt do it.



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Ozzy
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Horemheb, there are many diciplines of Anthropology and the repots you have quoted from deal with but a few.

Physical anthropology or Biological Anthropology (Foresic Anthrology)

Other disciplines in physical anthropology: genetics, human growth and development, primatology (study of primates), paleoanthropology (primate and human evolution), human osteology (study of the skeleton), paleodemography (vital statistics of past populations), skeletal biology, nutrition, dental anthropology, human adaptation and variation to different climates, altitudes, etc

Archaeology

Cultural Anthropology

Linguistic anthropology

My questions are directed at those that are not addressed in your refered reports. I am sure you would have come to some conclusion regarding the areas I have mentioned.

It is widely agreed by Anthropoligists that any conclusion based on only one of these areas which conflicts with one or more others is to be considered flawed. I am simply interested to know the range and supporting evidance in these other areas for the Mediterranean origin.

Ozzy


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Horemheb
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Ozzy...As a history professor I am always sceptical about anything old. You really have to be for a variety of reasons. For example, we draw conclusions from the Armarna period that may be miles from reality. We draw the conclusions based on the facts we have but we just don't have nearly enough. We have serious accuracy problems with events two or three centuries ago much less two or three thousand years ago.
AE was a near east power, not an African power. That is a historical fact agreed to by everyone. I can walk down stairs to the book store and pick up a copy of your basic sophomore Western Civ textbook and it will start with AE.
The study on mummies I cited for you showed decidedly non negroid hair to be the rule. Gotta run...I'll be back.

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Marcus
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quote:
As a history professor I am always sceptical about anything old. You really have to be for a variety of reasons. For example, we draw conclusions from the Armarna period that may be miles from reality. We draw the conclusions based on the facts we have but we just don't have nearly enough. We have serious accuracy problems with events two or three centuries ago much less two or three thousand years ago.

This part I agree with. (although I don't believe you're always skeptical, in my opinion you are just as biased as Wally)


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ausar
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Horemheb said:
The study on mummies I cited for you showed decidedly non negroid hair to be the rule. Gotta run...I'll be back.

The same report you stated where mummies had no negriod hair agreed that traces of negriod hair was prevelent in pre-dyanstic Badarian burials. You have not conclusively proven any of your points,but have kept reffering to obscure references. You never even took the time to read the texts you are quoting from.

refute this:
same study you refer calls Upper Egyptian pre-dyanstic hair negriod

With the aim of elucidating the question of the morphological
character of the Badarians,I studied both Badarian series,the first
one in Duckworth Laboratory at Cambrige[53 skulls]and the second one
in the Insitute of Anatomyat Kasr El-Aini,Unversity of Cairo[64
skulls],making a total of 117 skulls of adult and juvenile
individuals.

Of the total of 117 skulls,15 were found to be markedly Europoid,9
of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type.....6 were of very
robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cro-Magnoid type.
Eight skulls were clearly negriod........and were close to the Negro
types occuring in East Africa. The majority of 94 skulls showed mixed
Europoid-Negriod features in different combinations and with
different shares of both components,either well balanced or with
characters of the neautral range,common to both racial groups. We may
conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same,with
some overweight to the Europoid side.

In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved,thanks to good
conditions in the desert sand. In the first series ,according to the
description of the excavators,they were curly in 6 cases,wavy in 33
cases,straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples ,dark brown
in 11,brown in 12,light brown in ,and gray in 11 cases.......

I was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian
indivduals which were macroscopically
curly[spirals of 10-20mm in diameter]or wavy in [25-35 mm]. They were
studied microscopically by S. Tittlebacchova from the Institute of
Anthropology of the Charles Unversity,who found in five out of seven
samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its
length ,sometimes with simultaneous narrowing of the hair pitch. The
outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened ,with
indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show Negriod
influence among the Badarians.
{Thus] the Negriod component amung the Badarians is anthropologically
well based. Even though the share of ''pure'' Negores is small[6.8
percent],being half that of Europoid forms[12.9 percent],the hig
majority of mixed forms [80.3 percent] suggest a long-lasting
dispersion of Negriod genes in the population. It can be interpreted
by the supposition that the mixture of both components began many
generations previously.....

We still donot know exactly when neolithic farmers first settled in
the Nile Valley,nor from whence they came. A date in the sixth
millennium B.C. is most likley the sources of the settlement may
probally be found in the eastern Mediterraneanarea. At the same
period,however,with the begginings of the Makalian wet phases ,the
Niegro populations of the Sudanic savannah belt would have started
its movement towards the north,into Saharan latitudes,which then,for
the last time became open to human occupation. Maybe some of these
emigrant groups penetrated down the Nile as far as Upper Egypt,thus
providing one of the oldest known biological contacts between
Negriods and Europoids,the ultimate evidence of which appears some
1,000-1,500 years later in skeletons preserved in the Badarian
cemetaries.
In this connection,we have to mention the Egyptologist have found
in Badarian and other pre-dyanstic cultures of Upper Egypt some
materials and idelogical evidence of southern or Sudanic African
elements. The Badarian pottery is connected with the pottery of the
Khartoumn neolithic culture,which originated probally from cermacis
of the early Khartoumn culture. Some authors postulate the direct
derivation of Badarian pottery from the Khartoumn neolithic pottery.
While in Egypt pottery of this type was later replaced by other
ceramic forms,often under the influence of the Middle East,in the
Sudan this arhaic pottery persisted flor along time,and was form
there later introduced on several occasions by southern immigrants
into Nubia and even[though in small quanities] into Egypt. Fishing
hooks were also found in Badari ,typologically similar to Khartoumn
neolithic hooks,but more developed,and therefore pobally younger. To
this connection between the Khartoumn neolithic and Badarian cultures
it is necessary to add that,according to present--unfortunatley still
very poor----evidence,the population of the Khartoumn neolithic was
negriod.
Badarian flint instruments are of suprisingly poor quality. They
were made from free-lying boulders,regardless of the fact that in the
living area of the Badarians plenty of superb flints could have been
collected from limestone layers. This provides an argument for the
arrival of Badarian people from area lacking limestones with flints
e.g.,from more southern areas ,where,starting with 25 degrees N.
latitude in the Eastern Desert and Esna in the Nile Valley,the
limestone relief comes o an end.

In some of the BAdarian graves,conical buttons made from fine
polished cermaics were found which were probally worn in the earlobes
or in the nasal wings.......The custom of wearing ornaments in the
nose or ears can be considered in this region also being of African
origin.
In the pre-dyanstic cultures of Upper Egypt Alderd found evidence
of the cult of ceslsetial and astral deities ,as well as of the idea
of the leader]later deified king],and the ''rainmaker''. This is also
an old African conception ,which may be connected with the original
home of the Upper Egyptian populations [or part of it] in a region
dependking motr on rainfall than on the Nile floods. Ritual killing
of the leaders in the time of their deceased strength,known also from
predyanstic Egypt,has analogies in the historic and even in the
recent Sudan.
Source: Eugen Strouhal,''Evidence of the Early Penetration of Negroes
into Prehistoric Egypt,'' Journal of African History [1971],12[1]:4-7
[extracts;footnotes omitted].

quote:
was able to take samples of seven of the racially mixed Badarian
indivduals which were macroscopically
curly[spirals of 10-20mm in diameter]or wavy in [25-35 mm]. They were
studied microscopically by S. Tittlebacchova from the Institute of
Anthropology of the Charles Unversity,who found in five out of seven
samples a change in the thickness of the hair in the course of its
length ,sometimes with simultaneous narrowing of the hair pitch. The
outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened ,with
indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show Negriod
influence among the Badarians.
{Thus] the Negriod component amung the Badarians is anthropologically
well based.

Also you fail to realize that physical apperance of mummy hair does not tell somebody's race.You have to place them under microscopic observation to truly know. Some hair textures amung modern Nubians and beja people would show up a caucasoid because of their wavy texture;yet their hair is wavy and thick. Caucasoid hair is wavy and fine and poceeses a greater diameter.


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berber
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Ancient Egyptians are desedants of Ham, which means they are related to Somalis, Copts,Afhars, Ethiopians, Berbers, Taouregs, and even some Arabs(many Arabs are mixed or just considered that because of identity). There are 2 major people in Africa: Hamite, Bantu. Besides being part Native American,about 30-35% of Afro-Americans are Hamite( even part Arab) ,desendants of Moors captured from the French in Spain & Portugal who were then inslaved; the rest are Bantu, from other explorations. Hamites and Bantus look different from eachother. Egyptians of today are mostly Hamites, the Med. coast is mulatto or mixed. Some ancient Egyptians were Greek because Greece and Asia minor was an ally to the civilization.
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Ozzy
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Thanks Horemheb, my quaetions have been answered.

PS: One of my best friends and Monash University, has informed me, as I have mentioned before, that a large percentage of USA school texts contain outdated data, some as much as 20 years and more, hence withdrawal from many western countries Universities. Considering you do not trust old data you may wish to check the references.

If you would like to know the resources used by other countries i would be pleased to ask for a list. My freind has great resources. He is the one who sent me the single pdf file that all your references (quotes)come from.

Ozzy


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Horemheb
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Ozzy...your friend is right that some of the textbooks are outdated but none by anything close to 20 years. They would still be showing a divided Germany if that were the case. Even so, the Professors are not out dated and I can assure you that AE is taught as a part of Western Civ.
Everywhere we dig in the Delta we find Minoan and Myceane pottery and Frescos. We have evidence now of an early and continous trade between mesopotamia and AE through the Wadi near Thebes.
Obviously there is a NE African influence in AE...I have never contended otherwise but AE's foreign policy, trade and cultural development occured from interaction with the near east. That is why it is proper to teach it as the first great civilization in Western history.....that is exactly what we do and will continue to do.

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Horemheb
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Ozzy...your friend is right that some of the textbooks are outdated but none by anything close to 20 years. They would still be showing a divided Germany if that were the case. Even so, the Professors are not out dated and I can assure you that AE is taught as a part of Western Civ.
Everywhere we dig in the Delta we find Minoan and Myceane pottery and Frescos. We have evidence now of an early and continous trade between mesopotamia and AE through the Wadi near Thebes.
Obviously there is a NE African influence in AE...I have never contended otherwise but AE's foreign policy, trade and cultural development occured from interaction with the near east. That is why it is proper to teach it as the first great civilization in Western history.....that is exactly what we do and will continue to do.

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Horemheb
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Ozzy...your friend is right that some of the textbooks are outdated but none by anything close to 20 years. They would still be showing a divided Germany if that were the case. Even so, the Professors are not out dated and I can assure you that AE is taught as a part of Western Civ.
Everywhere we dig in the Delta we find Minoan and Myceane pottery and Frescos. We have evidence now of an early and continous trade between mesopotamia and AE through the Wadi near Thebes.
Obviously there is a NE African influence in AE...I have never contended otherwise but AE's foreign policy, trade and cultural development occured from interaction with the near east. That is why it is proper to teach it as the first great civilization in Western history.....that is exactly what we do and will continue to do.

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Horemheb
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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
post

I have never heard any recent history books refering to AE as western civilization. I my western civilization course in undergrad my professors never once mentioned Egypt unless they were talking about the exchanges that went on between Africa and Europe. Infact one of them (he was very pompus and arrogant and "very eurocentric") Downplayed everything that had to do with Africa inculding Egypt and basically infered that Western Civilization was supreme. I'm sure there are some fringe groupes who claim that AE was a western civilization, but in my readings Africa is rarely mentioned in western civilization except with imperialism....


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Marcus
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quote:
Everywhere we dig in the Delta we find Minoan and Myceane pottery and Frescos. We have evidence now of an early and continous trade between mesopotamia and AE through the Wadi near Thebes.

....and? No one is disputing that.

While it is true that Egypt and Nubia are sometimes considered part of the Near East that still doesn't make (Ancient) Egypt "Western". The great civilizations of Egypt and Mesopotamia made great contributions to Western Civilization, but neither were Western Civilizations.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Marcus:
....and? No one is disputing that.

While it is true that Egypt and Nubia are sometimes considered part of the Near East that still doesn't make (Ancient) Egypt "Western". The great civilizations of Egypt and Mesopotamia made great [b]contributions to Western Civilization, but neither were Western Civilizations. [/B]


That's interesting. Most western history courses (ones that I have had and books that I've read) greatly downplay the contributions of Egypt to the Greeko-roman empire and "western civilization".


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Marcus
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I guess Egypt and Mesopotamia are considered Western Civilizations by some - because of their great contributions to "western civilization". Or because the term Western is synonymous with highly developed nowadays - uh, yeah. Neither Iraq nor Egypt are considered Western countries today, so...

The history courses I took focussed on the significant contributions to western civilization of the classical civilizations Egypt, Mesopotamia, Rome, Greece, and - believe it or not - Kush. But I guess it's different in the US. Sorry for the confusion.

[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 20 February 2004).]


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Horemheb
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Keino, if you walk into any college book store in America and look at their basic western civ book you will find they start with AE and mesopotamia. Trust me on this...its a fact. That is the way it is taught and always has been and I assume will continue to be.
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Ozzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Keino, if you walk into any college book store in America and look at their basic western civ book you will find they start with AE and mesopotamia. Trust me on this...its a fact. That is the way it is taught and always has been and I assume will continue to be.

Exactly, Read a non US publication and see what you find. Hence the withdrawal of US publications in this feild and many others from other western countries education systems.

Then go to the back and read the references of the US publications. you will find the same resources in the new publication as the ones published 15 to 20 years ago. This is why your comment is so true

"That is the way it is taught and always has been and I assume will continue to be".

Ozzy


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neo*geo
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Keino, if you walk into any college book store in America and look at their basic western civ book you will find they start with AE and mesopotamia. Trust me on this...its a fact. That is the way it is taught and always has been and I assume will continue to be.

To call Egypt a Western civ is a bit odd and believing that it is puts ypu in the same boat as Afrocentrics who quote books like "Black Athena". I live in the US yet I share the same view as Marcus that most courses on Western Civilization briefly touch on the contributions made by Egypt and and Mesopotamia but they aren't considered "Western." Seriously, what college level Western history class doesn't start with ancient Greece?

In the past, Egypt was considered exclusively a Near Eastern civ but in the past 30 years it has changed a bit. Most classes on early Near Eastern history will include Ancient Egypt. At the same time, any class on African history will include ancient Egypt. It's geographically correct because Egypt is both part of Africa and Asia. Just as it's geographically correct for the history of Turkey to overlap inbetween Western and Near Eastern history.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by neo*geo:
To call Egypt a Western civ is a bit odd and believing that it is puts ypu in the same boat as Afrocentrics who quote books like "Black Athena".


Can you please expand on this. I don't see the connection.


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Horemheb
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I've taught the class 47 times and we always start with AE. What is the name of the sea north of the delta? AE could not have acomplished what it did had it been where Angola is today. It would not have had the cultural interaction with Mesopotamia and the greek Islands to advance. The contributions of the Hyksos are a clear case in point but they are limitless.
Additionally, since the American higher educational system leads the world in all fields it is a little silly to say they are 20 years behind in any field.

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Obenga
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I agree with the cultural interaction between Mesapotamia and AE being important but AE was already ancient by the time the greek islands had somthing to contibute to AE culture thousands of years of Egyptian culture had come and gone before the rise of Greece.

I don't see how the Greek islands helped "advance" ancient Egypt when Egyptian society predates anything on the greek islands by a substantial amount of time?


Horemheb, I'm curious what do u teach about how the Greek islands "advance" ancient Egypt?


Black Athena is not an afrocentric book.

[This message has been edited by Obenga (edited 23 February 2004).]


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neo*geo
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
AE could not have acomplished what it did had it been where Angola is today. It would not have had the cultural interaction with Mesopotamia and the greek Islands to advance.

I disagree. China had no advanced civilizations nearby yet they prospered. I'm sure the ancient Egyptians were influenced by Mesopotamians and vice versa but we're talking about two completely different cultures.

quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:

The contributions of the Hyksos are a clear case in point but they are limitless.

While the contributions of the Hyksos were numerous and helped reinvent the Egyptians militarily, the Great Pyramids had already been built by the time they arrived. By this I mean most of the scientific advances created by Egyptians came during the Old Kingdom. Egyptians were very xenophobic so they allowed foriegnors to make only minor contributions to their culture. The Hyksos certainly contributed as did other people from Asia but fundamentally, Egypt remained African.


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Marcus
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quote:
Originally posted by Obenga:

Black Athena is not an afrocentric book.


It is, actually.


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Obenga
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quote:
Originally posted by Marcus:
It is, actually.


Care to elaborate on this point marcus, how exactly is it an afrocentic book.

The title is a little provocative but needed to be to sell books. Bernal did not approve of the title it was forced upon him by the publisher.


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Kem-Au
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Black Athena is not at all an Afro-Centric text. Martin Bernal (for what it's worth, he isn't even black), has also mentioned that he is not an Afro-Centrist, and his goals are different from the Afro-Centrists.
http://www.uscsumter.edu/~tpowers/hist101/bernal.htm

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Ozzy
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Additionally, since the American higher educational system leads the world in all fields it is a little silly to say they are 20 years behind in any field.

Your kidding! You do read the national reports from your own United States Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, dont you?.


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Obenga:
Care to elaborate on this point marcus, how exactly is it an afrocentic book.

The title is a little provocative but needed to be to sell books. Bernal did not approve of the title it was forced upon him by the publisher.


I would like to read Mary Lefkowitz's book and compare it to the "afrocentric" books. What is a good book that you guys suggest reading? I have heard that Black Spark, White Fire is good....what do you guys think??


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Marcus
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Afrocentrism can mean different things to different people. Ask Lefkowitz if she thinks Black Athena is an Afrocentric text


quote:
Originally written by Martin Bernal

Before going any further, I should like to look at what is meant by "Afrocentrism." As Mary Lefkowitz points out, the term was invented by Molefi Asante, who sees it as a way to escape Eurocentrism and its extensions, by looking at the world from an African standpoint. Since then, the label "Afrocentrist" has been attached to a number of intellectual positions ranging from "All good things come from Africa," or as Leonard Jeffries puts it: "Africa creates, Europe imitates," to those, among whom I see myself, who merely maintain that Africans and peoples of African descent have made many significant contributions to world progress and that for the past two centuries, these have been systematically played down by European and North American historians.


[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 24 February 2004).]


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Marcus
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quote:
Originally posted by Keino:
I would like to read Mary Lefkowitz's book and compare it to the "afrocentric" books. What is a good book that you guys suggest reading? I have heard that Black Spark, White Fire is good....what do you guys think??


I'd say Black Athena and Black Athena Writes Back.

If you don't consider these books to be Afrocentric then I guess you should pick up Black Spark, White Fire or Destruction of Black Civilization (by Chancellor Williams)

Personally, I don't like books that are specifically and exclusively written for African American audiences. The chapter "The Mulatto problem" in Destruction of Black Civilization is disturbing IMO.

[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 24 February 2004).]


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ausar
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Marcus said:Afrocentrism can mean different things to different people. Ask Lefkowitz if she thinks Black Athena is an Afrocentric text ''
Ausar responds:
Marry Leftowiz says nothing bad about Africa but criticzes some of Bernal's opinion on contributions to ancient Greek soceity. She wrote the book entitled Not Out of Africa in responce to the George GM James book Stolen Legacy claiming that Greeks plagarized their philsophy from ancient Kmt.

You should read both Bernal's books and Leftowitz's books to understand her stance. She never denies the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians being Africa;however she cautions accusing the Greeks of stealing from the Kemetians. I disgaree with Leftowitz on many reguards in that ancient Kemetians never devised a philosophy prior to the Greeks. This is simply not true,and texts like the discussion between a man and his ba clearly demonstrate that philosophy was clearly in existence prior to the Greco-Roman period.

Bernal has never claimed all Egyptians were black nor does he claim this anywhere in his book. He believes,like most mainstream scholars,that Upper Egyptians were black;while Northern Egyptians were a mixture of various elements including Africans.

Matter of fact,Bernal believes it was the Hykos who were the Pelgisians that civlized the Greeks not the Egyptians. He does make some mention of the Greek pyramid in connection to Danos in the Illid. His contention is that Hykos passed their knowleadge from Kmt via into Greece.

Marcus said:
Personally, I don't like books that are specifically and exclusively written for African American audiences. The chapter "The Mulatto problem" in Destruction of Black Civilization is disturbing IMO.


Ausar responds: I will agree up to a certain extint. I think scholars like Diop who never proclaimed what Willams said get a bad name from these various scholars. You have to understand also reactionary people like Chancellor Willams comes from the past in academic racism that denied African people their proper place in world history.

The problem with Willams is not only his beliefs in reguard to ancient history,but also his methodology of reserch. Unlike Diop he never presents foot notes or references of where his material comes from.

I apologize if the discussion is starting to drift more in the matters oif politics rather than ancient Egypt. Sometimes politics is intertwined with history.

Richard Poe does not claim to be an Afrocentric. He simply gathers material from various fields that argue various points. Poe allows other to make up their mind for themselves.


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Marcus
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Ausar, I agree with your stance on Lefkowitz.

On the other hand, I think books such as Black Athena should be based on archaeological evidence first and foremost. I found it to be lacking in that department.

quote:
I think scholars like Diop who never proclaimed what Willams said get a bad name from these various scholars.

I agree. Diop's work isn't feel-good literature exclusively written for African Americans, though. Neither is Shomarka Keita's work. I have nothing against Afrocentrism per se.

[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 24 February 2004).]


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Kem-Au
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I'd just like to add that the body of Lefkowitz's work should not be dismissed because of some unflattering remarks we may have read about her. Though I'm not completely familiar with her work, I've never bought into this idea of Greeks stealing anything from Egyptians. From what I've read of a number of Greek scholars showed a great deal of appreciation for all things KMT. This seems more like an adoration than a theft. They never made a secret of where they got their knowledge.

On the other hand, Lefkowitz did try to change history by claiming that Plato was not educated in KMT, when this was long held to be true. Bernal pointed out that is is the only person to say something like this. Her story is that the Greek terms were mistranslated. and that Plato was educated elsewhere.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Marcus:

On the other hand, I think books such as Black Athena should be based on archaeological evidence first and foremost. I found it to be lacking in that department.

He released a second volume that cited the archaeological evidence. It was always planned to be a multi volume set, though I have not read it.


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Marcus
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Thanks for the heads up, Kem. I didn't even know there was a second part, besides BA Writes Back (but I haven't read that one). I just assumed he never finished the series.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Marcus:
Thanks for the heads up, Kem. I didn't even know there was a second part, besides BA Writes Back (but I haven't read that one). I just assumed he never finished the series.


Actually I don't think he finished the series. From what I understand he planned a 4 volume set, but after vol 2 the last thing he released was BA Writes Back. So he should have 2 more volumes to deliver. Perhaps he wasn't suspecting such a huge backlash.


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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzy:
Your kidding! You do read the national reports from your own United States Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, dont you?.


Ozzy, I thought about you when I went to the Brooklyn museum. When you first go into the Egyptian exibit, off to the right there is a big poster that say "Egypt in Africa". As you can probably guess, it deals with the early denial of the African heritage of Egypt, and that modern scholars are changing the commonly accepted views. It mentioned that people like Frederick Douglass and W.E.B. Du Bois were instumental in this reassessment of AE, but it did not mention Diop. This is strange because it did mention that the shift away from a non-African Egypt began in the 60's, which was a direct result of Diop's work, though admittedly he was not the first to note that AE was an African civilization.

The poster also mentioned the idea of an AE origin of West African civilizations. So American text books and pop culture may be behind the times, but at least the museums are getting their act together.


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Ozzy
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Thats good to hear Kem, it conncerns me that a country such as the United States gets to a point where, due to cultural supremity looses touch with the world. I dont mean to knock the US, but many histories of world powers have shown there is a time when the culture becomes so strong and wound up in its own culture and oown being the influences and contributions of others are often ignored.

RE: Its bigger, faster, better and truer in the USA so therefore we must be right so whoo needs any new or outtside imput. That is a big generalisation, but I think you get the idea. Education systems are often the first o fall into the hole. Legal systems follow.

Hows the legal system over there LOL, only joking!


Ozzy


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Ozzy
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Double post sorry

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 01 March 2004).]


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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by Kem-Au:
When you first go into the Egyptian exibit, off to the right there is a big poster that say "Egypt in Africa". As you can probably guess, it deals with the early denial of the African heritage of Egypt, and that modern scholars are changing the commonly accepted views. It mentioned that people like Frederick Douglass and W.E.B. Du Bois were instumental in this reassessment of AE, but it did not mention Diop. This is strange because it did mention that the shift away from a non-African Egypt began in the 60's, which was a direct result of Diop's work, though admittedly he was not the first to note that AE was an African civilization.

The poster also mentioned the idea of an AE origin of West African civilizations. So American text books and pop culture may be behind the times, but at least the museums are getting their act together.



Yes, indeed. The museum could have also included the efforts and scholarships of Marcus Garvey, J.A. Rogers, Malcolm X, and others. However, the great impact of C.A. Diop's work lies in his methodology. Prior to Professor Diop, those who would reclaim Ancient Egyptian civilization relied primarily on non-African sources to prove their case. Diop relied mainly on the primary sources available to him from Africans in general and the Egyptians in particular...
He also stated emphatically that the struggle to restore Ancient Egypt to its proper place in African history has been practically won, but that "THE AMERICAN CONTRIBUTION SHALL PROVE DECISIVE!"

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 01 March 2004).]


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