Good point Kem, I have been spending sometime looking at some ancient cultures,(Those that still exist as they did thousands of years ago)to try and understand the concept of boundries or Land Right as the ancient would have considered it. What I have found is that the perception of boundries that we have today did not exist as we understand it. Often Cultural boundries crossed. Humans it seems were not like dogs who smelt the scent of another and knew it was not their territory, but often viewed the same territory as their own. Sometime leading to confliced, and often not. I dont think we look at the relationship of the different African cultures through the same Eyes.

Quote, If you could see what I see through the eyes that I see you would understand me!

Ive been drinking, think its time for me to go to bed LOL see you tommorow.

Ozzy

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Kem, true what you say, but I have made it a point not to an opinion till I can argue the point unless pressed, re; (Hawass and Diop topic) But it may be that many here actualy agree many points but argue the minor points, not recognising the majority in common.

My feelings on Lower Egypt are enforced by what I have read about the Geography of the area. The possibilty of monumnets or any other artifacts surviving there over thousands of years, or even hundreds of years is less that 1% of that in Upper Egypt. Records of Greek historinas of Lower Egypt just 300BC and even 200AD, show that 0% of what was described survived. Now what would could we find totay from 3500 or indead 5000BC, in this area. Nothing! The lack of evidance has always been the proof of abcense.

For a crown to be claimed I feel a desirable civilisation had to exist. The extent of the advancement is debateable, and indead the existance, and that was the point of my argument regarding Nubia ( for want of a better word)in a prevouse thread.

If art, religion, politics, cultivation, etc,ect, can be shown then a distinct civilisation can be shown, regardless of the connection geneticaly. Re: the connection of most Europeans is much closer that that of the all Africans, but the Europeans will fight tooth and nail to show their cultural differences.

Not sure if you understand what i mean, hope you do.

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Ozzy you make some very interesting points...I always wondered about the two crowns deal...

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Obenga, I agree that not everyone here is worth debating certain issues. But I wouldn't abandon the topic. I think some people have recently shown an open mind.

And Ozzy is correct now that a number of noted Egyptologists support an African origin of Egypt, though they may not call them "black". Don't ask me to name them all because I see some of them on TV and don't remember the names. But I do know that Kent Weeks believes AE's to be of African Origin, and that guy on the Egypt Uncovered series who excavated Nabpta Playa (for now, we'll just call him "that guy on the Egypt Uncovered series who excavated Nabpta Playa"

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I'm not saying to abandon the issue, if posters are going to provide and respond to evidence then fine it's a worthwhile discussion as we know it is a contoversy that is discussed among Egyptologists.

In fact I think a TV Documentry is in the works by a harvard Professor dealing with this issue, he is trying to get Hawass to attend a televised round table with others discussing this race subject.

As for what mainstream egyptologists believe about origins I often see words like "African influence" rarely "African Origin", and never "Black african origin" there is a difference. In fact u might want to ask what they mean when they say "African", interpretation varies.

Whats being debated here is whether that origin is "Black African" with some asiatic influence or Med caucasoid with some african influence. It's my view the common perception is that of the latter

Debating Horemheb is pointless, he is baiting people. I think most of see this.

His talk about the Egyptian soldiers Pic u posted being Nubian was refuted by the Nubian soldiers Pic u updated the post with, he had no response to this of course and he made no mention of his error. Ausar posted a great deal of evidence yet there has been little or no response to his posted evidence either

His genetic evidence was debunked on this board a long time ago as long time poster are aware of.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Exactly, and that my fiend is also your agenda, so dont tell me that there is no debate. If you have strong feelings about it then debate it, dont preach it!, If you wish for people to listen then show them dont slap them in the face.

I believe civilisation started on the Nile, I beleive that Egypt was founded by African people. I dont care what color they happend to be at the time. Although I would not try to argue that they would have had black skin.

So in essence I believe much of what you do. You however place every WHITE in the same racist box as you do every BLACK You have created for them, and that my friend is my problem with you aproach.

But I expect your reesponce is that you care not what my opinion is as a WHITE man as it has nothing to do with me.

The funny thing is, I have BLACK in my family and I have relitaves who are blacker than most Americans today. I have some distant reltions who can claim no mixed blood in history of 60,000 years, and you try to make me out as just another white man trying to steel the black mans connection to Africca and Egypt.

Groow up and teach if you have something to teach, dont preach!

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THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS ARE THE PRIMARY SOURCE REGARDING THEIR ORIGINS AND THEIR IDENTITY AS A PEOPLE AND AS A NATION (PERIOD) - Some educational material is available at http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo
Thank you very much...

This discussion is real déjavu and very, very awkward.

1) Ancient Egypt was black african culture: I think no!

2) Ancient Egypt was mediterrean white culture: I think no!

The western and Eastern Delta had influces from costal type Northern Africans and Asiatic people since the unfolding of the pre-dyanstic era. Archeological evidence collected shows it was the south that provided the stimulus in the Badarian to Naquda II culture. Instead of Egypt influcing Nubia,I believe the Nubians included the Upper Egyptians. The culture of A-group Nubia beyond the first cataract is almost indentical to the Badarian,Naquda,and other cultures that existed in Upper Egypt.

I don´t know if my viewpoint is "mainline" or not. I put plainly think that the ancient Egyptians were mixed mediterrean-african people and their culture too.In any case, as far as I know, for majority of the modern Egyptians is question: "what race were the ancient Egyptians" or "what is the origin of our culture, mediterrean or african?" not important and their viewpoints are rather "mainline". In majority, they are simple and uneducated people and they don´t understand these "problems". And for me, it´s heart of the matter.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Its always safer to take the mainline viewpoint on any historical subject.

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There is no mainline point-of-view on this question. Most mainstream Egyptologists ride the fence on the question not out of racism but out of respect for Egyptian people. Most Egyptians don't feel comfortable discussing race issues as Americans do, and the word "black" has some negative stigma attached to it in the Arab world.

If Anwar Sadat were born in the US or Britain he would most certinly be classified as black but even he didn't feel comfortable talking about what race he belongs to.

The same negative stigma surrounding the word "black" is found in Latin America where people who may look like Sammy Sosa don't feel comfortable describing themselves as "black." However, I doubt Sammy Sosa would deny that he has African ancestry.

It's much easier for us to discuss this in a public forum where everyone is anonymous and can voice their opinions freely.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

I'm going to go with Dr Hawass, Brier and others as well as the numerous studies I mentioned earlier.

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I'm not familiar with Brier but Hawass' view is driven by his opposition to Afro-centrism. I think some Afro-centric historians are a bit extreme but Hawass shows his own bias when he says things like ancient Egypt has no connection to sub-Saharan Africa. To make a statement like that you have to ignore the language of Ancient Egyptians, the fashions, artwork, and the country's geographic location. Saharan African influence is not absent from ancient Egypt either, most likely Saharan Africans are the root of the civilization.

Egypt is a very diverse country with a long history. Throughout the country's history there have been layers and layers of migrations which have added to this diversity. As a country which lies on the border of Africa and Asia(Sinai is in Asia), it is only logical that the foundation of people in the country would be Saharan and sub-Saharan African, Coastal North African, and Asiatic. All other groups who have conquered Egypt have assimilated and mixed into the populations of major cities like Alexandria and Cairo.

I agree with most of what you said. I leave alot of detail out of posts because I sometimes assume that people know what I mean from some previous posts. Other times it's just because I don't always feel like writing alot.

So I'd just like to clarify a few points just so there's no confusion to my beliefs. It's no secret that I feel that most AE's were black by western standards, but I am leaving much detail out when I say that. For one, the period of time does matter.

And I'll agree that it shouldn't matter what these people looked like, but depending on where you are today, it absolutely does. As long as kings of African decent were called Pharaoh, archaeological data tells us that the majority of the population was situated in the south. Ausar has already shown evidence for this. Even up to the time that Herotodus visited AE, he had no problem stereotyping their appearance. So up until 400 BC or so, I'm putting my money on black skin wooly haired when we speak of commoners.

Now royalty is another story. I'd guess the Hyksos were phenotypically different than your typical AE. If they left mummies, this would be reflected. The Greeks and Romans also left behind many mummies, and probably Persia and Assyria when they ruled. All of these groups took on AE traditions when they invaded, and if they left behind mummies, they may not be indicative of the population at large. Gadalla has already noted that AE's tried to expel all of these groups from power by frequently revolting. The one group whose reign was accept as legitimate Pharaohs were the so-called Nubians, when they regained control of Egypt during the 18th and 25th Dynasties.

After the Arab conquest, the playing field completely changes. Gadalla also notes that many AE's were expelled or enslaved, and that the Arabs were principally concentrated in the North.

To say that AE's were Afro-Asiatic is then a bit misleading then because it depends on when as much as it does who. At certain point it could even be accurate to describe them as Afro-Euro-Asiatic when they are known to have a larger percentage of European settlers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
It's no secret that I feel that most AE's were black by western standards, but I am leaving much detail out when I say that. For one, the period of time does matter.

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Well, I have to resist making conclusions on things that could go either way. For one, how a civilization depicts itself in art or other forms of history isn't always representative of the civilization as a whole. Perception is everything but percptions can be wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

And I'll agree that it shouldn't matter what these people looked like, but depending on where you are today, it absolutely does.

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Judging from the number of threads debating this issue and the number of responses, I agree.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
v
Even up to the time that Herotodus visited AE, he had no problem stereotyping their appearance.

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In contrast, there was another Greek historian who visited Egypt and described Egyptians in the north to be similar to northern Indians. As I wrote earlier, perceptions are everything. Who's right? No one knows. However, it does appear that Egyptians were associated more with Nubians in ancient times. In my opinion, these associations may have been more cultural than physical.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

The one group whose reign was accept as legitimate Pharaohs were the so-called Nubians, when they regained control of Egypt during the 18th and 25th Dynasties.

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I'm not sure how true that is. I've read some books which claim that Lower Egyptians helped the Assyrians run the Kushites out of Egypt. The Kushites united Egypt after years of civil disunity but its possible that some tribal chiefs in the north were not happy with them as rulers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

To say that AE's were Afro-Asiatic is then a bit misleading then because it depends on when as much as it does who. At certain point it could even be accurate to describe them as Afro-Euro-Asiatic when they are known to have a larger percentage of European settlers.

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I call it like I see it. Arabs didn't just appear in Egypt in the 7th century, there is evidence that people from the Levant had been settling in Egypt as far back as several centuries prior to the country's unification. Prior to unification, the city-states of Lower Egypt showed influences from early Near Eastern civilizations. They settled mostly around the Nile Delta and there werent really any mass migrations until the Middle Kingdom.

The first wave of Asiatics came in as captives and slaves, the second wave flowed in with the Hyksos, after the second intermediate period there was always a slow but steady flow of people from Asia into Egypt. Semitic names became more prominent as high officials in Egypt from the New Kingdom onward.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Neo...like dr Hawass most American world history classes teach that AE's came from the east, settled in the area that is now desert. As the area dried out they moved south and east to the nile.

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I attended high school in Maryland, USA and we barely touched on ancient Egypt in world history. The usual cirricullum in American world history classes starts with the civilizations in Mesopotamia and is followed with Egypt but there is little mention of how Egypt was founded.

Unless I am mistaken, the other Greek historian you speak of is Diodoras. To my knowledge his comments were meant to suggest that like like the Northern Indian is lighter than the Southern Indian, the Northern Egyptian is lighter than the Southern Egyptian. I do not debate this. The closer you get to the equator, the darker the skin.

I've not heard what you mentioned about the Kushite rulers of Egypt. Please let me know if you come across more info.

Again this view was debunked long ago on this board it's a trick some use to try an indicate that there were/are no blacks living above the sahara, what a joke. A ploy to indicate blacks live far away from north africa, so funny.

The southern area's of many north african countries have always had Black african populations from ancient times to this very day. blacks live throughout all africa the idea they only live below the sahara is a joke.

quote:

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Originally posted by Obenga:
I agree KMT did not have much to do with sub-saharn Blacks, but that really does not say much as blacks lived from ancient times to this very day in places like southern libya and Egypt

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I agree. I've read that most West Africans originate from the people who populated the Sahara in pre-historic times.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Dr Hawass is not showing bias. Why is it bias when someone disagrees with you? He reflects the view of many that AE has no connection with sub saharan Africa. I could'n agree with him more. You guys are going to find that a hard sell to mainline historians.

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Horemheb, are you aware or do you use any material published by UNESCO? or any other International body publications, as teaching material.

I am aware in a number of countries that the traditional texts which used to be published in the USA, are no longer being purchased by certain western Countries, due to a number of reasons to complicated to go through here. But one of those reasons was a lack of consistancy with world views and outdated data.

I know this to be a fact in Phsycology, (Atkinson and Atkinson), to Art history. This was as many as 5 to 6 years ago.

The reason i have asked is that I have differed in opinion with many here, that the type of opinion you have presented is mainstreem, as I had not come accross it in my general reading and studies, Almost all material I have read acceptes Egypt as an African civiliation.

This is now the mainstreem thinking. It is certainly no the only opinion but it is the most accepted.

What publications are used in your students education on AE.

If you could name a few I would be greatfull, as I would like to see if I can come accross any in other western curiculums.

Ozzy

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
And remember, I said Arab, not Asian. I realize that there were settlers in lower Egypt, probably Asian, tha were in Egypt since unification. Islam comes around much later.

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I understand but what we know today as Northern Arabs(Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, etc.) were the Asiatics who made up the majority of migrants into ancient Egypt. From what you said about the Islamic conquest, it sounds like you're implying that there was a large group of people but in reality that group was very small and had no major affect on the population.

I hope we can really stop using "Black African" someday, because like John Clarke mentioned, it's leftover colonial baggage that assumes there is a such thing as a non-black African. Most of us agree that the people on the Narmer Palette who are depicted with straight hair and aqueline noses did not originate from Africa (unless you go back over 80,000 yrs ago when their ancestors 1st left Africa). Africans are not black, but mostly various shades of brown and vary greatly in appearance.

What I normally read is that Egyptians originated from a specific region in Africa, but though the term black or Negro African is frequently used to describe Nubians, it is not used to describe Egyptians. Look at the Yurco article Ausar posted. He mentions that Nubians and other Africans had realistic Negroid features. He also mentions that ethnically, Nubians are the closest to the Egyptians. But this the closest he will go to attaching Egyptians to Negroes.

quote:

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
From what you said about the Islamic conquest, it sounds like you're implying that there was a large group of people but in reality that group was very small and had no major affect on the population.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
According to Gadalla, this is not true. I've already expressed my feelings on this here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000272.html

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I don't disagree on the political affect of the Islamic conquest, I disagree that Arabs made a major impact on the demographics of the population. For one they were a small group. Secondly, they had few settlements around Egypt outside of Cairo. Culturally, the ancient Egyptians were Afro-Asiatic since the Hyksos invaded...

____What about Sir Alan Gardnier? He was an Egyptologist that lived in the 60's that admitted that the ancient Kemetian civlization was African in origin.

Are you aware of the anthropological studies by Shomarka Keita and Laurence Angel?

Both have used burials from early Pre-dyanstic sites to prove that the early Egyptians were tropical Africans. You might want to check out their studies. Angel,however,believes that Lower Egyptians are related to the Natufians in Neolithic Palestine. Keita sees the Lower Egyptians as intermediates.

JL Angel has some interesting things to say in this regard. He considers
the Dynastic Upper Egyptians as a evolutionary development of the Badarian
people. The latter were considered a mixture of the Natufian/Tasian hunters
of the Lower Egypt with the more "rugged" African types of the south.
Both these peoples tended to have broad noses and prognathism.

Dynastic Egyptians were said to be basically the same as Upper Egyptians but
with less linear skulls, longer faces and thinner noses. However, he adds
the caveat:

"But I have to use a IX Dynasty series (Woo, 1930) as a base for this
statement and almost certainly this group in the late third millenium
B.C. shows minor effects of mixture with sea-trading peoples from
the Levant and Aegean."

[J.L. Angel, Egytpian and Eastern Mediterranean Populations, In:
_ Population biology of the ancient Egyptians, edited by D. R. Brothwell
and B. A. Chiarelli (London, New York, Academic Press, 1973)]

What about the residents in Cairo? the city of Al-fustat was settled by Yemani Arabs when they invaded in 640 AD. Do you think the various immigrants into Cairo from the Abbasaid to the Ottoman period might have had some effect? Egypt's total population going into the Arab invasion was only about 3 million. Know Egypt's population is nearly 83 million. Some of this is due to the population boom of Lower Egyptian birth rates since 1880 due to Mohammed Ali modernizing Egypt.
Islam did not wipe out all of Egyptian culture in Lower Egypt due to Egyptians synchrinizing many Kemetian ntrs in with Sufism. Many of the Mouleds today in Lower and Upper Egypt have elements from ancient Egyptian times.

Going as far back as the 8th dyansty there was already communities within the Delta region of Egypt comprised of ''Asiatics'' as the Kemetians called them. Pictures of these people are depicted in the tomb of Khnumhotep II in Beni Hassan. Apperantly,many came in and settled in with the population and aquired a type of citizesnhip with the Egyptians. Not only were there Asiatic immigrants,but Libyan mercenaries settled in the Eastern Delta and many aquired the lands because of their services in battle.

In various Egyptian litterature like the Tales of Sinhue there is mention of the Delta man not understnading the speak of a man that lives in Aswan. When a Delta man sees himself in Southern Egypt he is confused,and the same was true for a Southern Egyptian in the Delta. Both seemed to have a dinstict idenity going back to the 8th dyansty.

Besides what I have stated,some Asiatic people obviously lived in the Delta prior to the unfication of Upper and Lower Egypt. The people depicted on the Narmer palette look like either Costal African types or Asiatic Syrio-Palestinean types. These were also the same people shown on the Scrpion stela as the rekhty or Lapwings. Rekhyt is a type of bird that is shown with a wing stamped to the ground probally denoting dominance of the South over the North.

In the Egyptian language, the word Kem or "Black" took all sorts of variations to describe the peoples of the country. Like every language, it also expressed an ideology.

"Anok kemi" or "I am a Black man" means literally, "I am an Egyptian"
Kemi = "Black man" was also used as a euphemism for Upper (or Greater) Egypt.
Kemsa = "Black man" = an Egyptian
Kemse = "Black woman" = an Egyptian woman
The word "Black" also implied all that was good, or sacred:
KemIsi = "Black Isis" = divine Isis (also KemHor; KemAmon; etc.)
The opposite of Black(Kemet)or good was Red (Deshret; Sett) or evil; devil
(Red is Derosh in modern Egyptian)
The language described the Egyptians' racial opposites (the Asiatics and Europeans) collectively as Deshretu or Tamhu (Red peoples). In the Egyptian language, these labels were also pejoratives. To this day, Africans still refer to these non-African peoples as Red people. It is an ideological constant.
There is simply nothing in the Egyptians' self-description that is not clear on their ethnic identity. It is my belief that they intended for this to be so.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Now that I look at these people, think they really look more southern European than Black. I'm officially changing my position. These people were not black, they're European:

[This message has been edited by Kem-Au (edited 30 January 2004).]

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RE: Even in England were the people are proud of they mix of Romans, Vikings, etc, etc, etc, we find that the genetic imput from the Romans and Vikings has been limited to the towns they held, and did not impact on the country people.

This can be mirrored in many countries were a mas migration of a people did not exist only military invasion. This is also the case in many countries of Arab invasion as ausar has pointed out. The Arab invasion of North Africa consited of only a few thousand forces, and the populations that migrated much later did not mix to any great extent with the indiginouse people.

Also you have to consider an invading force is als made up of men, and any mixing in the first instance would have been with local women, the men of the invaded country would have almost no chance of having the genetics of the Y chromosom being geneticaly changed as the forces often did not move women until much much later when colonies were established, when the collonies were established they mixed with their own as the locals were often excluded, from these new towns.

The mtDNA genetics of the women taken from the local population would have been soon included in the invading populations genetics not visa versa.

The African genetics to be found in Spain Porugal, are the result of migrations from North Africa and are more closly related to the Berber populations In North west Africa. No African markers have yet to be confirmed as existing in Italian populations.

The most common Northern African genetic marker is U-6 commonly confined to costal regions of Northern Africa like Algeria,Tunisa and Northern Morocco. Iberian peninsula is the only region who has this marker while the other areas donot pocess this marker.

Portugeese do have some African admixture in small amounts from Neolithic era but in small amounts.

Here is the reference:
Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.

Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain. amglez@ull.es

Even though the Moors used Berbers the markers are much older than the invading dates. They are not considered to be in relation to any invasion by the moors, this is misrepresented on many sites I have visited.

Ozzy

The African genetics to be found in Spain Porugal, are the result of migrations from North Africa and are more closly related to the Berber populations In North west Africa. No African markers have yet to be confirmed as existing in Italian populations.

Ozzy[/B][/QUOTE]

Author: Sandler SG
Filed: 30/09/2003, 14:06:48
Source: Acta Haematol 1978; 60 (6), pp. 350-7.

Title:
Blood group phenotypes and the origin of sickle cell hemoglobin in Sicilians.
Author(s):
Sandler SG; Schilirò G; Russo A; Musumeci S; Rachmilewitz EA
Source:
Acta haematologica [Acta Haematol] 1978; 60 (6), pp. 350-7.
Journal Info:
Country of Publication: SWITZERLAND NLM ID: 0141053 ISSN: 0001-5792 Subsets: IM

As an approach to investigating the origin of sickle cell hemoglobin (hemoglobin S) in white persons of Sicilian ancestry, two groups of native Sicilians were tested for blood group evidence of African admixture. Among 100 unrelated Sicilians, the phenotypes cDe(Rho) and Fy(a-b-), and the antigens V(hrv) and Jsa, which are considered to be African genetic markers, were detected in 12 individuals. Among 64 individuals from 21 families with at least one known hemoglobin S carrier, African blood group markers were detected in 7 (11%). These findings indicate that hemoglobin S is only one of multiple African genes present in contemporary Sicilian populations. The occurrence of hemoglobin S in white persons of Sicilian ancestry is considered to be a manifestation of the continuing dissemination of the original African mutation.

Department of Pediatrics
Children's Hospital of Iowa
Peer Review Status: Internally Peer Reviewed
Creation Date: March 1993

Not that I would not be supprised to find some African gentics in the population, but to this date no African markers have been found in the Italian population.

Mitochondrial DNA sequence analysis in Sicily

G. Vona, M.E. Ghiani, C.M. Calò, L. Vacca, M. Memmì, L. Varesi

Department of Experimental Biology, Section of Anthropological Sciences, University of Cagliari, Monserrato, Italy.

In work carried out with restriction enzymes on mtDNA in a sample of Sicilians, Semino et al. (1989) indicated the presence (4.4%) of the African complex HpaI-3/AvaII-3 (40% in Senegal and in the Bantu of South Africa). The authors hypothesized a migration of genes from Africa to Sicily, estimated at about 10%, which was introduced into the Sicilian gene pool by Black slaves brought by the Phoenicians and the Romans and/or by Arab migrations. Results at the mtDNA sequencing level, however, show no Black African influence in the Sicilian population.
Author: Semino O
Filed: 03/04/2002, 14:54:36
Source: Pub-med
Readers' Comments: (0)
Ann Hum Genet 1989 May;53 ( Pt 2):193-202

Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Italy. III. Population data from Sicily: a possible quantitation of maternal African ancestry.

Semino O, Torroni A, Scozzari R, Brega A, De Benedictis G, Santachiara Benerecetti AS.

Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia 'A. Buzzati-Traverso', Universita di Pavia, Italy.

mtDNA polymorphisms were studied in a sample of 90 individuals of the Sicilian population using six restriction enzymes: HpaI, BamHI, HaeII, MspI, AvaII and HincII. (1) Three new patterns, for MspI, AvaII and HincII, have been detected. (2) At least two different mutations were found to account for both the AvaII morph 3 and the AvaII morph 9 as in many other Caucasian groups so far examined. (3) Seventeen types were found; of these six are new. The frequency (54.5%) of type 1-2 (2.1.1.1.1.2) is lower than in the rest of Italy whereas those of type 6-2 (2.1.2.1.1.2) (10.0%) and type 18-2 (2.3.1.4.9*.2) (12.2%) lie at the upper level of the Italian range. The 18-derivative, type 57-2 (2.3.1.4.13*.2), which is consistently found in all Italian samples, is present also among Sicilians with an incidence of 2.2%. (4) Of particular interest is that the HpaI-3/AvaII-3 complex, which is unique to groups of African ancestry, was found in Sicily at a frequency of 4.4%. For the first time an estimate of the amount of gene flow from Blacks to the Sicilian gene pool could be obtained

Filed: 31/05/2003, 01:28:49
Source: Dienekes' Anthropology Blog
Readers' Comments: (0)
Berbers are distinguished by a particular subclade of HG21 [or E*(xE3)] which is labelled 25.2 in [1]. In contrast, Europeans and Arabs have higher levels of another clade, 25.1. Thus, while Berbers have 71.0% of 25.2, Europeans have at most 5.6% in a sample from Lombardy, while Spaniards have at most 2.2% (with the exception of an isolated population group of known mixed origins), the French have 4.1%, most Sardinians lack it, while one has it at a frequency of 2.1%, and only one of three Sicilian groups (from Sciacca) has it at a frequincy of 2.3%.

These results are a strong indication that most of HG21 and its subclades in Europe is of ancient origin and not associated with recent absorption of North African elements, which can be quantified at less than 5%. Note also that since data on the origin of HG25.2 are not available, it may be possible that part of it may be of prehistoric origin, i.e., predating the Roman and Medieval periods.

[1] Human Immunology
Volume 62, Issue 9 , September 2001, Pages 871-884

Again not in the general population of Italy and most likely a recent introduction to Sicilian genes if at all. Re: Slave trade.

Most of these genetic tests done on populations don't take history into consideration. I take most with a grain of salt,because the most accurate is nuclear DNA.

quote:

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Originally posted by blackman:
Ozzy,
I know the marker is part of the DNA. So, how are you defining the difference between a marker and a gene?

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Im not, it is considered a marker but not a defined African marker. Anything that shows inherited differences in people is a genetic marker, but hemoglobin S is found in Middle eastern populations, India, 500,000 African-Americans and is not found in All populations of Africa. In fact it is non-existant in Highland populations in Africa.

Malaria does not occur in the cooler, drier climates of the highlands in the tropical and subtropical regions of the world. Neither does the gene for sickle hemoglobin.

So its possible that the hemoglobin S has arisen as a defence independantly in these areas. In any case its not considered an "African marker" , and regardless of weather you consider Cicilian people as a fare representation of Italians, there is to this date no confirmation of African dna "markers" being present in the Italian population.

Ozzy

Fy[a-b-] is found in most Upper Egyptians.

See example:

Mahmoud LA; Ibrahim AA; Ghonem HR; Jouvenceaux A
| ADDRESS: Department of Clinical Pathology, Faculty of Medicine,
| Mansurah University, Egypt.
| TITLE: Human blood groups in Dakahlya, Egypt.
| SOURCE: Ann Hum Biol (57R), 1987 Nov-Dec; 14 (6): 487-93
| LANGUAGE: English
| COUNTRY PUB.: ENGLAND
| ANNOUNCEMENT: 8805
| PUB. TYPE: JOURNAL ARTICLE: New data on blood groups among Egyptians (Dakahlya province)
| are obtained by studying eight blood group systems: ABO,
| Rhesus, MNSs, Kell, Duffy, Kidd, P and Lewis. Comparing our
| results with the data reported in neighbouring countries, we
| found in Egypt a high frequency of B, NS, cDe and K genes, a
| moderately high frequency of P and the presence of Fy gene.
| The Egyptian population appears as a mixture of African,
| Asiatic and Arabian characteristics.

FYA

0.42 -Caucasians;
0.10 -Blacks;
0.95 -Chinese:
0.90 -Japanese
0.92-1.0 -Thai
0.97-Australian (Aborigine)

FYB

0.57 -Caucasian;
* -Blacks;
0.05 -Chinese;
0.10 -Japanese;
0-0.08 -Thai

FYBES
*-Blacks;
~ 0 (all others)"

Here is you references. Thank you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
"The RH haplotype CDE is relatively rare and has a maximum north of
the Black Sea. The same is true, in a slightly more western position,
for CDe, which is also more frequent in other parts of the world. This
haplotype is the most frequent in Europe. Cde has a P1 pattern. cDE,
also numerically important, has a minimum north of the Black Sea and a
maximum in northwestern Iran, with a lesser one in the Leningrad region.
An allele very frequent among Africans, cDe, has a rough P1 pattern, but
also shows a relative maximum in Poland and minima not only in the
Basque region, but also in southern Scandinavia and Iceland. The fully
RH-negative haplotype, cde, has the well-known maximum among Basques,
with minima not only in the Middle EAst (a P2 pattern), but also among
the Lapps and in northwestern Africa.”

Not an isolated African marker.

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