This is why we had all the incest in KMT. Ideally, the King wanted to be the head of his house, so inorder to do so, and produce offspring that could be king, he needed to be both the father and the uncle. i.e. have a child with his sister. This is also the reason kings like Ramses II needed a great royal wife to validate his reign, seeing as he had no royal blood.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I understand this. It's the basic principle of a matrilineal culture. The question is, how can any king's son be a candidate for kingship? Perhaps it is by marrying a queen?

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Because they're in the same family. Not just anyone could seek the throne. Tutankamun's mom was believed to be a servant but his claim to the throne was validated because he was Akhenaten's only son.
If your father wasn't the Pharoah, a person without royal blood could only become King or Queen through marriage to a Princess or King.

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
Because they're in the same family. Not just anyone could seek the throne. Tutankamun's mom was believed to be a servant but his claim to the throne was validated because he was Akhenaten's only son.
If your father wasn't the Pharoah, a person without royal blood could only become King or Queen through marriage to a Princess or King.

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Again, here is where my problem is. I don't think the father alone is sufficient to make a son heir to the throne. This would explain why so many kings married their sister, to become both the father and maternal uncle. But this means that a son of the Pharaoh is only in line for the throne if he is either the son of a great royal wife, or if he marries a woman of royal blood. In essence, it almost doesn't matter who your father is.

Perhaps Amenhotep III broke this tradition??? Could that be where the controversy began with the Amun priests? We do have evidence of a rift growing between the kingship and the Amun priesthood under Amenhotep III's reign. His colossal statues suggest sun worship.

Hmm... No great royal wife of Amun needed to be king? Perhaps the controversy just continued with Akhenaten, and ended with the death of King Tut. Just speculation, but interesting nontheless. Anyone here wanna loan me $100 million to make a movie?

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Again, here is where my problem is. I don't think the father alone is sufficient to make a son heir to the throne. .

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Perhaps this should help you get a better understanding of this subject:

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God's Wife of Amun has its origins prior to the 18th Dynasty, appearing first in the 10th and 12th Dynasties of the Middle Kingdom, but it was an obscure, non-royal role prior to the reign of Ahmose I, the founder of the New Kingdom. He not only elevated the "Great Southern City" (Thebes), but also the position of God's Wife of Amen, by bestowing it on his chief wife, Ahmose Nefertari. She had held the title, Second Prophet of Amun, an exceptional rank for a woman, but arranged by contract to exchange the title for that of God's Wife. In doing so, she created an important religious concept held at least through the 18th Dynasty. During this period, the Egyptians held that the crown prince was the child not of the king, but of the union between Amun and his Great Royal Wife.

At first, the position was hereditary, more or less, passing either to the daughter of the Queen who held the title, or to the next king's wife, who frequently was one and the same. From Ahmes Nefertari the title passed to her daughter, Meritamen after she married her brother, Amenhotep I. However, it was Hatshepsut who took the position over from Meritamen, rather then the wife of Tuthmosis I, perhaps because his chief wife, Ahmes, may have been the sister of Meritamen. Hatshepsut seems to have kept it when she became regent for Tuthmoses III and it has been suggested that the title was so important that this was a means to gather authority for Hatshepsut before she claimed the throne. She did not relinquish the title until she later took the full titles of a king. However, now as king, sometimes depicted as a man, it would have been incongruent for her to remain as God's wife, so she relinquished the role to her daughter by Tuthmosis II, Princess Neferure.

We believe that after the death of Princess Neferure (and her mother, Hatshepsut), the title passed to the non-royal mother of Tuthmosis III, Aset, and after her death, went to his daughter, Meritamen, and though it is somewhat unclear, it may have passed from her to the mother of his successor and son, Amenhotep II. Her name was Meritre. The role was held by Tiaa, the king's mother in the reign of Tuthmosis IV. However, as the later kings of this dynasty moved towards the worship of the sun disc culminating with the heretic king, Akhenaten, the title slipped into obscurity and we do not find records of the last six kings of this dynasty having wives in this role.

In the 19th Dynasty, the title was revived, though we lack records that queens of that, or the 20th Dynasty functioned in any special religious capacity. Prior to the 19th Dynasty, most if not all of the title holders had been married, but it may have been the maiden daughter of Ramesses VI, Aset, who was the first unmarried God's Wife. This would evolve into a tradition followed in future dynasties. In fact, from the 21st Dynasty on, the title was always held by an unwed daughter of either the king, or the High Priest of Amun. These included Maatkare, the daughter of the Priest and King, Pinudjem I, and Istemkheb, the daughter of King Psusennes I. Now, the position was passed on through "adoption", with the God's Wife of Amun naming her successor.

This was also during the period that the title became even more political. The 21st Dynasty is considered by most to be the initial phase of the Third Intermediate Period, and the country was divided administratively. Now, we find kings in both the north and the south, at Thebes, and kings of the Delta in the north sought to have their daughters installed with the Title at Thebes. This practice continued until the position was apparently abandoned during the Persian conquest of Egypt, and for the Nubian rulers of Egypt in the 25th Dynasty it was essential.

Even before the first Nubian King we recognize as ruler of Egypt, Piye, his father invaded Egypt and persuaded the current God's Wife, Shepenwepet I, to adopt his daughter, Amenridis, as her successor. What persuasion he used is unknown, for Shepenwepet I was actually the daughter of Kashta's adversary in the Delta. After ascending to this title, Amenridis remained God's Wife of Amun through the reigns of the next two Nubian Kings, Piye and Shebaka. When she died during the reign of Shebitku, her replacement was the daughter of Piye, Shepenwepet II. She held the office into the reign of Tantamani and was replaced by the daughter of Taharqa, Amenridis II. She actually continued to hold the office even after the Nubians were ejected from Egypt. In fact, the new ruler of Egypt in the north who had driven her family from Egypt, Psammetichus I (Psamtik) negotiated with her (with the help of Montuemhat, "Overseer of Upper Egypt") to adopt his eldest daughter, Nitiqret (Nitocris) as her successor, in order to secure his position in the south. A stela recording her later installment as God's Wife describes the elaborate ceremony involved, and lists the enormous endowment allotted to the office during this period. Nitiqret's successor was Ankhnesneferibre, the daughter of Psammetichus II, but soon the Persians could come, and that would put, virtually, an end to the title, God's Wife of Amun.

Appearance

The depictions we have of God's Wife of Amun evolve over the title's history. At first, for example in the Red Chapel, Neferure is portrayed in what might have been priestly attire, a simple sleeveless costume with a headdress consisting of a headband with streamers worn over a skullcap (or perhaps simply closely cropped hair). Later, she was depicted as a queen, wearing the tripatite wig, vulture cap with uraeus, modius and tall double feathers. She was also sometimes shown with horns and a sun disc. She most likely also carried the "fly Whisk" scepter. When depicted with Amun, interestingly, she was usually shown in the same scale, whereas queens with their king were often portrayed in a much smaller scale.

Function

We do not completely, and some would say even remotely, understand the functions of God's Wife. Until Aset, the daughter of Ramesses VI took the role of God's Wife, she was certainly not exclusively considered as Amun's wife, for she was as well that of the king in most cases. However, with Aset, it has been assumed by some that she may have remained a virgin. And although the role has a sexual connotation, the god Amun did not procreate through intercourse, but rather by self stimulation. It may have been her function to simply stimulate the God sexually through ritualistic ceremony, such as playing the sistrum (a musical instrument) before him, in order to be impregnated with the future king. However, this was certainly not her only function.

New Kingdom God's Wives are shown taking part in temple rituals at Luxor and elsewhere. For example, title holders of the 25th and 26th Dynasties are shown presenting Ma'at to a god in non-funerary contexts, an honor only bestowed on one queen (Nefertiti), but mostly only allowed to Kings.

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The office of the 'God's wife of Amun', already important in the New Kingdom (about 1550-1069 BC) and in the late 22nd Dynasty, became especially influential in the 25th and 26th Dynasty. Kings placed their daughters in this position, while the succession of one 'God's wife' to the next was made by adoption. The 'God's wife' appears with greater prominence on monuments than the king himself, occupying positions in formal art normally reserved for the king.

The 'God's wife' was at the head of the 'domain of the Divine Adoratrice', in which substantial personnel worked under the administration of a 'high steward'. The 'high stewards' of the domain became at the end of the 25th Dynasty very powerful, as can be seen from their huge tombs at Thebes. The god's wife also bears the title 'Divine Adoratrice of Amun' (dwAt-nTr n imn).

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I'd guess that similar remnants of a matriarchal still exists among Egyptians, especially the Upper ones. Ausar, anything to this?

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
This is all well and good, but it is not really the heart of my question. That article basically said that Egypt was matrilneal, or lineage was traced thru the mother. This was probably always true in KMT, and was only exemplified thru this idea of the God's Wife, Great Royal Wife, etc. In other words, the God's Wife, Great Royal Wife etc, were just indicators of a matriarchal culture. The name's and titles might've been different from time to time, but the idea is the same.

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As far as the path to Kingship went, it wasn't always matriarchal. As the article mentioned, the God's Wife phenomenon didn't really begin until the 18th dynasty.

I understand where you're coming from but understand that at it's core, Egypt was always a male dominated society. The Pharoah's son was always the first in line to succeed him. If he had no heirs and no brothers, then the dynasty ended and a new one began.

I'm not sure if there was always incest in the Egyptian royal families. Incest seems to have been something that occured more frequently once the role of the God's Wives of Amun became more significant. With a God-King and a Goddess-Queen, maybe the Egyptians thought they were producing more divine offspring.

Incest may have been common among commoners in AE as it is common in modern Egypt. While marrying one's sister is rare and unusual in any culture, marrying one's first cousin isn't taboo in Egypt as it is here in the western world.

I'd guess that similar remnants of a matriarchal still exists among Egyptians, especially the Upper ones. Ausar, anything to this?

I know that it does with Nubians but I'm not sure if the matriarchal customs from AE have carried over to modern-day Egypt.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:

The question is, why do we so often read about the blood line passing thru the Pharaoh?

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You're forgetting that the role of the Pharoah was as much religious as political. The Pharoah was supposed to be the intermediary between man and the Gods. Obviously, if people believe the Pharaoh is half-man half God then they would believe his offspring would also carry those characteristics.

"I understand where you're coming from but understand that at it's core, Egypt was always a male dominated society."

I do not dispute this. Matriarchial does not mean female dominated. Matriarchial cultures are still usually male dominated, but it's the maternal uncle, rather than the father who is head of the household. KMT seemed to fit this description, and no one has disputed it, but at the same time little is written about it.

I don't think we're really in disagreement, just not totally on the same page. I highly doubt a culture could go from matriarchial to patriarchial, or vice versa. It's either one or the other (or close to neither, in the case of many of our cultures today). So although the concept of God's Wife may not have existed until a certain point, KMT was still KMT and it was matriarchial. I guess I need to know more about the earlier periods.

neo wrote:

"The Pharoah's son was always the first in line to succeed him. If he had no heirs and no brothers, then the dynasty ended and a new one began."

Again, I think there's more to this than we currently understand. If this were simply the case, there would be no need for kings like Seti and Ramses II to get a Royal Wife to validate their reign. Also no need for incestous relationships.

"In addition to extramarital sex, premarital promiscuity and trial marriage may also alter the paternity probability. Indeed, at least one cross-cultural study suggests that in matrilineal-matrilocal societies sanctions against premarital sex, when they exist, are quite mild, whereas such sanctions are severe in patrilineal-patrilocal societies. (Goethals 1971). Although premarital sex is especially tolerated in matrilineal societies (e.g., Malinowski 1929), unwed mothers and illegitimacy leading to lower probabilities of paternity are not tolerated......I most matrilineal societies divorce is reported to be quite frequent, and can be initiated by either party without social stigma." (Kurland, J.A. (1979) Paternity, Mother's Brother, and Human Sociality. In Evolutionary Biology and Human Social Behavior. N. Chagnon & W. Irons, eds. Pp. 160-1)
http://www.humanevolution.net/a/contemporary.html

This certainly describes KMT as premarital sex was acceptable from both sides and divorce could be initiated from either party.

The interesting question is, is Egypt still a matriarchal culture? After a little digging, I think the answer is yes. I took a look at Winifred S. Blackman's book, The Fellahin of Upper Egypt, and while she doesn't specifically mention the lineage of modern Egypt, she definitely describes a matriarchal culture.

There's a few key's to look for:

1. Where do the wives come from? In a matrilineage, the wives typically come from the same villiage.

Blackman mentions that more often than not, a man marries a woman from the same villiage, and with a favorite being his cousin. In a patrilineage, the wife can come from anywhere, even another villiage (maybe even country), and the wedding ceremony is almost like an adoption where the wife joins her new family and severs ties with her old family.

2. What is the role of the mother's brother? In a matrilineage, the mother's eldest brother is basically the head of the household, though he doesn't necessarily live in the same house. But he will serve an authoritative role, for example he can settle disputes.

Again, on a couple of occasions Blackman notes that the mother's brother yields considerable power. On one occasion, he tells his widowed sister that she could not be seen on the streets without her mother. On another occasion, he tells his sister's husband that he is not to even look in the direction of his ex-wife.

Blackman also notes that in a dispute, a wife is known to run off to her father's or brother's house. Her husband, for fear of the wife's relatives, will return and basically have to do whatever the wife asks of him.

All examples of the power wielded by the mother's brother.

3. Divorce is common, and initiated by either party.

Blackman mentions that divorce is not out of the ordinary, but she doesn't mention that either party can initiate it. Anyone???

Her book is specific to Upper Egypt, but would anyone with knowledge of modern day Egypt consider this post accurate? To your knowledge, are these points true, and thus, is Egypt still a matrilineage?

Divorce amung the more urban balady couterparts,however,is frowned upon.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Again, I think there's more to this than we currently understand. If this were simply the case, there would be no need for kings like Seti and Ramses II to get a Royal Wife to validate their reign. Also no need for incestous relationships.

Remember the incestous marriages were common for quite some time. Martin Bernal noted (I think it was him, it's late so don't quote me on that) that the Greeks used the term Philadelphia almost mockingly to describle kingship in KMT. The key is that Philadelphia does not mean "city of brotherly love", it means "brother lover", ie referring to incestous marriages. So the process lived long into even Greek rule. I doubt this could be something that came and went.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Everybody knows that both Sa3eadi in Upper Egypt and Nubians in Northern Sudan marry their first cousins. This is why many Sa3eadi look nearly the same.

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this is partly the point of a matrilineage, to keep the bloodline as pure as possible.

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Originally posted by Meritaton:
Actually after the end of the 18th dynasty the pharaohs didn't marry royal heiresses. Sethi's Royal Wife Tuya was of common origin and Ramesses' wives weren't royal (although it is suspcted that Nefertari might be related to Ay and Isetnofret was related to Horemheb but after all, neither Ay nor Horemheb were of royal origin.)

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seti ii and ramses ii did have to validate their reigns by marrying royalty. i'm not sure who seti i took to validate his reign, but for ramses ii, it was supposedly nefertari. ay too had to marry ankhesunamun to become king. and remember ankhesunamun's asking for a hittite prince to marry her so he could become king. again, by marrying a royal woman you can automatically become king and you produce royal heirs.