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Hey Guys, I'm new here and I thought I should start off with something that's been bugging me for a long time. I know the question seems a bit redundant so I'm gonna explain it more. When people ask me, "What are you?" The very first thing out of my mouth is "African" followed closely by "Muslim" and then finally "Black". That to me is what I am. A lot of people in school get offended because I always say I would call an Egyptian or Algerian or Tunisian my brother before I called an African American my brother, even though I am West African. They tell me it is like calling a white south African my brother, but I disagree. Just because they live on the same continent as me doesn't mean I consider them my brethren. To me it's not about the color so much as geography and culture. Not saying that North and West have the same culture but some are very similar. I always look at North Africans as having established themselves, atleast in my eyes, as African.
When I go out with some of my Asian friends and we happen to see clothing or accessories made with an Asian influence, my friend is always quick to point out how she feels more privileged to wear them than another person who isn't Asian. I don't necessarily agree but I tend to do the same, when I see someone exploiting the African heritage and culture, be it North African, South African, west or East African. I recently went on a shopping spree and bought 26 African CDs (many of which were North African) at a tower records near my house. When I was asked why I answered truthfully. I'm just trying to keep it real. They're my people. We're all Africans, and I like the music. That is anyway until my ex-boyfriends mother, who happens to be Tunisian, told me bluntly. "We're North African and you're West African. You are not our people." To say I was insulted would be the understatement of the year. Not that her son shared any of her views but many of the North Africans I have come across seem very reluctant to admit to being just African. They always add the North. I consider all Africans my people, excluding white south Africans. Why is the feeling not mutual? In Nigeria where I come from my dad always told me that race is third only to religion and where you come from? Every one of my friends believed that. We grew up listening to North African and West African music. Especially in the Muslim neighborhoods. I have rarely, if ever, heard an West African or East African bothering to distinguish themselves using those labels. Yet north and south do it all the time.
In our Organization of African students in my school, there are no North Africans, and we have 6,948 members. All of the "North Africans" are in the Arab organizations. Are they not African? Do (to the North Africans out there)you consider yourself African? Would you call me, a dark skinned west African, your brother or sister...in the same sense you would call another dark or light skinned north African your brother/sister?
Please I hope people give me as much of their opinions as possible. I really need feedback on this. Thanks guys.
------------------ "I always thought death was evil...but death is necessary...hate is evil, and hate is a concept made reality when in the minds of men."
Posts: 1 | From: Philadelphia, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Well,I don't know to respond to this question except to say that Egyptians are defiantley Africans reguardless of the diversity of Egypt. In Egypt you find everything from the light to dark brown Sa3eadi to the medium brown to Mediterrean Bahary[Lower Egyptians].
Definatley,the culture in the rural villages of Upper Egypt is more African in nature than Arabic. You have to vist these regions and look at the people to truly understand this. I am an Egyptian and I have always considered myself an African person despite the fact Egypt is in the Arab league.
In other parts of Northern Africa it is a different story. You have people in Algeria,Tunisa,and Morocco who are traditionally been Berbers[Imazighen]. These people have their own specific culture and have been less Arabized.
You have to understand also many modern Egyptians view things in an Arabic lense because many have been Arabized. This is why they attack the Arab lable to things and associate with Arabs.
Please do me a favor. Don't confuse all of Northern Africa with each other. The Maghreb is different from Egypt,and we are different from Maghrebians.
Many Egyptians who travel aborah are not the more African looking Egyptian peasents from Southern Egypt. I think this is where the confusion arises. I am an Aswani Egyptian living in America.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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how u doin? i would like to say that i definitly agree with Ausur. Egyptions are definitly African, i am a college student many of my friends who know me as Egyption consider as African even the African Americans,not black but African. Being in North Africa thou we are very distinguishable from the rest of the North Africans, i dont know if you know or seen any egyptions, but most of them have a distint look, it usaually may matter what part of egypt they would come from, but other than that they all look similar. When you compare egyptions to Maghrebians, you would find them brown and more darker, and find them many to have many African features, like the curly wooly hair, jaws, lips, etc... (Many african americans who go to Egypt for a visit may be considered as egyptions and fit in with the rest of the egyptions, reason is many of the Afrian american in the US are mostly a shade od brown). Maghrebians on the other hanD are more Medetteranian they are really pale white(excluding some libyan who are not all white you could find some dark skinned libyans)but most of North Africa are related more to the Mediteranian; if you like you could visit my thread called "are North Africans cacausian" to learn more about the differance between Egypt and North Arica. Living in America You might find some white skinned egyptions aswell as blondes, they are probably not fully egyption more medeterranian and these kind of Egptions are from the delta, Usaully in Big cities like Ciaro and ALexandria, blondes thou are rare to find, (when i went to egypt i never ever seen a blonde even living in the US i never seen a blonde egyption just heard of them existing). If you would like more info on race of egption you should visit the other threads, you could learn alot of egypt to the point where you would understand how they are considered African.
Posts: 671 | Registered: Feb 2004
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One thing also to consider about Egypt is that parts of Egypt have always had a historical idenity of their own. Going as far back into antiquity we oberve instances where Upper Egyptians would have trouble recognizing themselves in the Delta or a Delta man becoming a stranger around the first cataract. Languages within Egypt differ:from a Sa3eadi accent in the south to the accent of a Cairene. This is indeed understanable when one consults the Kemetian texts on how commication between the North and South was often blured. Such incidents still occut frequently where Cairene speakers have trouble communicating with Sa3eadi.
Egyptians have always been culturally connected to other parts of Africa. This is especially true for the pre-dyanstic era to even the close to the Greco-Roman period. Intermarriage,trade,and exchange has always occured within a cordior,so you can't seperate Egypt from Africa. Understnading Egypt from this context is much better. Modern Egyptians might not feel as connected to Africa as the ancient ones because of circumstances that occured in a modern time frame. Know Egypt is in the Arab league under a Nasserite doctrine. Even Nasser himself put it plainly:''Egyptians live both in the African World and the Arab world''
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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A while back on BBC there was a discussion topic entitled "How African is North Africa?" here is the link for anyone that haven't read it that would like to check it out.
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Anonalyst, I don't consider the Arabs in the Maghreb and Egypt to be true Africans. I think it's sad that you feel more in common with them than you do with African Americans. I am aware of the "Africans sold us into slavery" mentality among *some* Black Americans, but come the **** on. This is silly.
Berbers are the true descendants of original inhabitants of northernmost Africa. Egypt is a different story altogether.
I'd say Morocco is different from other Maghreb countries in that its Berber inhabitants are - on average - more African looking (I haven't been to the south of Algeria, so keep that in mind). The difference in appearance between Berbers from, say, southern Tunisia and Berbers from east, and south Morocco is striking.
Photos from Morocco:
[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 29 February 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Marcus: Berbers are the true descendants of original inhabitants of northernmost Africa. Egypt is a different story altogether.
Here are some pictures of Berbers from the Siwa Oasis in Egypt:
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Uh, I wasn't commenting on the Berber populations in Egypt - who are a very small minority. What I am saying is that Egypt is vastly different from Maghreb countries...
Posts: 87 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Marcus: Uh, I wasn't commenting on the Berber populations in Egypt - who are a very small minority. What I am saying is that Egypt is vastly different from Maghreb countries...
Indeed, Egypt has a different history. Lots of foriegn settlers added to the diversity of Egypt. At different points in history, Egyptians in lower Egypt were outnumbered by foriegnors. Natives were often minorities in cities like Avaris and Alexandria.
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Africa is Africa as Europe is Europe. It has been a devise plan to divide and conquer non-western countries for economic and political control for some time. Most all of the world’s natural resources are from Africa and Asia(middle east, India ect)! Europeans have for a long time exploited Asia and Africa while using the benefits to build Europe and that’s how almost all of Europe is developed today while most of Africa and Asia remain “backwards“. If one travels throughout Europe you will come across populations that are diverse in phenotype (appearance), culture and language, but are considered European . Europeans refuse to be divided and will not let anyone define them even though they are very well aware of the differences within. Lets think about this, France has French language and French culture; England has English language and English culture; Spain has Spanish language and Spanish culture, Russia has Russian language and Russian culture, Ireland has Irish/Gaelic language and Irish culture; Italy has Italian language and Italian culture; Portugal has Portuguese language and Portuguese culture; Poland has Polish language and Polish culture; Germany has German language and German culture and this list goes on and on. You have to even consider the sub-cultures in all of these cultures and the different dialects of the languages in each country. Now lets look at the phenotype of Europe! Many Spaniards, Portuguese and Italians are not just olive in skin colour, but are brown with curly hair (mulatto looking like many North Africans and middle easterners) and many Russians are very Asian looking. One will never hear Europeans dissociating themselves from the “continent” of Europe because they know they are diverse and very different but they identify with and are PROUD to be European especially because at this present point in time Europeans are ruling the world and many people associate anything European as superior or better and anything African as inferior and bad. Another horrible misconception is Europe = humans and intelligent and Africa= Animals and unintelligent. This is the core of where the concept of “in Africa, but not African” comes from. Its an inferiority complex due to the present false perceptions of Europe and Africa. ALL Africa has been colonized, “imperialized” and under the exploitative control of Europe for many many years now. It is these divisive tactics that are now employed to keep ALL African confused, bickering and non-unified while Europe reaps the benefits and continues to build itself. Africans have to unite to build us their country first then the continent as Europe did. I have came across many people who tell me that Egyptians are white and I have had to explain to them how ridiculous that statement is and that its equivalent to saying Americans are white. But until All Africans (Egyptians and North African included) and people of African descent debunk the false perceptions of Africa, we will always have the notion that things African and black are bad. Had the Ancient Egyptians spread imperialism and capitalism around the world, the earth as we know it would be literally flipped. North would be south (it not wrong or right because there is now such thing as north or south or even time in the grand scheme of the universe) white would be bad evil or bad and black/brown would be royal and good. Then we would probably have to deal with the arrogance of the black and brown people and we may also have European people claiming to be “In Europe, but not European.
"I'd say Morocco is different from other Maghreb countries in that its Berber inhabitants are - on average - more African looking (I haven't been to the south of Algeria, so keep that in mind). The difference in appearance between Berbers from, say, southern Tunisia and Berbers from east, and south Morocco is striking."
Yes, it´s true that some Berbers(and Arabs) in Morocco have black admixture, but it´s only a minority.Some of them are on the contrary a tall, white-skinned, fair haired race with blue or grey eyes.
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Marcus said:''Uh, I wasn't commenting on the Berber populations in Egypt - who are a very small minority. What I am saying is that Egypt is vastly different from Maghreb countries...'' Ausar responds: Yes,but I am willing to bet many modern Egyptians located in the Baharwiya Oasis and Frafra probally have more Imazighen ancestry than you think. Plus very large settlements settled in the Western Delta during dyanstic periods. I wouldn't doubt that many probally mixed with Lower Egyptians when many came to Kmt as mercenaries.
Ayazid said:Yes, it´s true that some Berbers(and Arabs) in Morocco have black admixture, but it´s only a minority.Some of them are on the contrary a tall, white-skinned, fair haired race with blue or grey eyes.
Ausar responds: You are talking mainly about the Shawayle and Kaybele or Riffian that live mostly in the Aures,Atlas and other mountain ranges. Much of the black population in Morocco either comes from the Trans-Saharan slave trade or from indigenous Saharans in the case of the Haratin. The Oasis areas in Northern Africa from Libya to Algeria are mostly black. Majority though would have a Southern European look. The desendants of these Africans taken by the Moroccans in war with Songhai in Western Africa during 1591. These people are reffered to as Gnawa. The ancient Greeks knew the inhabitants of this region of Northern Africa as Mauros which sometimes meant darker than the average Greek or Roman.
Contrary to what most say,dark-skinned imazighen exist.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I think maybe this is relivent here as well. There always seems to be this blond hared blue eyed thing going on when Berbers are talked about. The same myths surround the history ofthe Guanche of the canary Islands, but they did not exist in that way. Something to consider in regards to the early reports oabout the Berbers is simular to the Spanish reports, of the Guanche, is that many Europeans were rather short, most during the conquests in Africa the Islands and West Africa were no more than 5ft5" some even smaller. Remains found in the Canaries and NOrth Africa have shown to be Tall gracile (Slim Muscular) types who would have been imposing to Europeans.
Is everyone aware that some of the Berber and the Guanche practiced mummification? Built mound tombs and many other traditions often only associated with Egypt.
Here are a few exerts, which may be of interest in the current topic.
“In order to place NW African and Iberian Alu insertion genetic diversity in a global frame, we compared our samples with other European and African groups: French, Bretons, and Swiss, and !Kung, Nguni, and Bantu speakers from the Sotho/Tswana branch. The Alu insertion frequencies for the eight loci analyzed by Stoneking et al. (1997) were compiled, and the three remaining loci (HS2.43, HS 3.23, and HS4.65) were typed as described with the same samples. The Alu insertion frequencies for the six samples used for comparison are shown in Table 3. Genetic distances were calculated and represented in an NJ tree (Fig. 5). The tree clearly separated first sub-Saharan populations from the rest with strong bootstrap support (96.9%) and subsequently Europeans from NW Africans (85.8% of bootstrap support). The Iberian samples clustered together with the rest of European populations, and no robust branches existed between them, suggesting a high homogeneity within European populations. NW African populations clustered together; however, it is also interesting to note that the two samples that presented unique characteristics in the previous analyses (Saharawi and Southeastern Moroccans) were closer to sub-Saharan Africans, and the branch linking them together showed strong bootstrap support (82.9%). This affinity suggested a certain degree of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa into NW Africa.
It has been suggested that the Arabization of the Maghreb (NW Africa) was the result of a cultural replacement with limited demographic impact (Hitti 1990). In the present study, Berber populations are represented by samples from the Rif mountains (Northern Moroccans) and the Atlas mountain range (Southeastern Moroccans), whereas Arab populations are represented by Western Moroccans, Algerians, and Tunisians. The shortest genetic distances among all the samples tested are those between Northern and Western Moroccans, and, on the contrary, the genetic distances between the two Berber groups (Northern and Southeastern Moroccans) are larger. The cultural and linguistic differences shown between Arabs and Berbers are not correlated with the present data on Alu insertion polymorphisms and agree with other genetic data (Bosch et al. 1997, 1999) supporting the view that Arabization in the Maghreb was the result of a cultural replacement with little demographic impact.
In addition to the Mediterranean Sea, the other geographical barrier constraining Northern Africa, the Sahara Desert, seems to have been more permeable to human movements in its northwestern part. The finding that, in the past, the Sahara Desert was much wetter than it is nowadays might explain why the Sahara appears to have been a less significant genetic barrier than the Mediterranean. Even in northeast Africa, where the Nile could have functioned as a highway between north and south, Krings et al. (1999) have found a steep gradient of genetic differentiation in mtDNA sequences along the Nile. The shorter genetic distances observed between either Saharawi and Southeastern Moroccans and sub-Saharan populations can be explained by some admixture through the Sahara Desert. These results agree with previous genetic data (Lefranc et al. 1979; Rando et al. 1998; Bosch et al. 1999, 2000), suggesting that the admixture across the Sahara could have been achieved by continuous gene flow between both groups of populations, thus creating a cline of sub-Saharan admixture in NW Africa, which is stronger in the southern part than in the north. Nonetheless, even if the genetic influx is patent, there is a very sharp genetic differentiation between African populations north and south of the Sahara Desert. In summary, our study with Alu insertion polymorphisms shows that the Gibraltar Straits, which are only 15 km wide, have acted as a much stronger barrier to gene flow than the 2000-kmwide Sahara Desert.”
Ozzy
Posts: 448 | From: Australian living in Spain | Registered: Aug 2003
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Keino said”Europeans refuse to be divided and will not let anyone define them even though they are very well aware of the differences within”.
What do you mean by they will not be defined nor divided?
Keino said“One will never hear Europeans dissociating themselves from the “continent” of Europe because they know they are diverse and very different but they identify with and are PROUD to be European especially because at this present point in time Europeans are ruling the world and many people associate anything European as superior or better and anything African as inferior and bad”.
Keino, Were do you base this perception from?
Keino said “Another horrible misconception is Europe = humans and intelligent and Africa= Animals and unintelligent. This is the core of where the concept of “in Africa, but not African” comes from. Its an inferiority complex due to the present false perceptions of Europe and Africa. ALL Africa has been colonized, “imperialized” and under the exploitative control of Europe for many many years now. It is these divisive tactics that are now employed to keep ALL African confused, bickering and non-unified while Europe reaps the benefits and continues to build itself. Africans have to unite to build us their country first then the continent as Europe did”.
Where do you get the idea that Europeans are a united people or countries, and what areas of Africa are you talking about that are still under control by European countries.? Are you talking about industry contracts (Off sea Oil, Gold, titanium etc) by countries like France on the west coast etc or something else?
If I could as you say “Put my two cents in” I feel you are confusing the scentiments of Americans with the general population of Europeans. A great number of Europeans have never even seen a Black man. And there is no singular coherent identity as “European” among the country people in most European countries. And it is certainly not based on the belief that “European is superior or better and anything African as inferior and bad”
As you have pointed out Europe is a diverse cultural, religouse, and political continent, and yes they do call themselves European, but my experience has been that the word is based on Geography not a union of an idea of superiority. They are too busy making jokes about how stupid each other are to be bothered with Africa which is to us so close but to many many of them so foreign.
Believe me you would be surprised in this day and age the isolation and lack of education of a great chunk of the population in country Europe. And for this I think we should be thankfull, for they have not been affected by this type of thinking.
If you have been to Europe and traveled in the country areas Keino, you will have now doubt been stared at. This would seem to you to be because you are considered Black. It may be, but it is more based on the fact you are different (and being black you are real different) than the locals. Not for being Black and associated with Africa and any associated preconcepts of what a black man is.
I have been to a number of countries including the one I live in now were I have been the subject of interest and in some cases prejudice. Not because I am black, because I am not, but because I am different. In America (Washington, LA, and New YORK) no one ever considered I was not a white American until I opend my mouth, however, I stood out in Spain, Portugal, England, France,Italy, Greece, and many other countries in Europe. I don’t get picked for a German, nor an Englishman, nor a Sweed. Who they are used to seeing here as tourists. I stand out. And my children were excluded not so much because they were different but because I (Their Father) was someone to be couscous of. What I am getting at is its not racism, its nothing more than peoples fear of something different and unknown, and these American scentiments of racism are not a general part of the greater population of Europe. If it was then my being white would be enough for anyone in Europe to accept me, whoever this is not the case, and in fact if I were to be a little darker I would most likely have had less trouble than I do.
Here in the Canary Islands the half West African,(Father) half Isrealy (Mother) family who live next door to me are a larger part of the local community than I am.
If you could answer the questions above I would like to ask more. And ausar if you are wondering were this is going in regards to Egypt I think this does have relivence to Egypt as almost all Africans I have met or currently know have a different view of Europe and the world than that of America, and I would dare say that the same goes for rural Egypt. I hope I am proven right when I finaly am able to visit the country areas.
Ozzy
Posts: 448 | From: Australian living in Spain | Registered: Aug 2003
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Keino
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Keino said”Europeans refuse to be divided and will not let anyone define them even though they are very well aware of the differences within”.
Ozzy responded: What do you mean by they will not be defined nor divided?
Keino Replies: Honestly every thing I said has very little to race. I try very carefully to chose my words when I post to prevent misunderstandings. You will never hear a European person or country say that they are “in Europe, but not European” NEVER! On the other hand its debatable as to whether North Africans and Egyptians are Africans. Its okay to ignore the diversity of Europe, but focus on subdividing Africa when in fact Europe can be divided according to all of the characteristics in which we try to divide Africans today. Do you understand my point? Do you agree or disagree and why? I think everything I stated about Europe not letting anyone define or divide themselves from the European continent is very clear.
Keino said“One will never hear Europeans dissociating themselves from the “continent” of Europe because they know they are diverse and very different but they identify with and are PROUD to be European especially because at this present point in time Europeans are ruling the world and many people associate anything European as superior or better and anything African as inferior and bad”.
Ozzy Responded: Keino, Were do you base this perception from?
Keino Replied: I have chatted with many Africans (Ethiopians, Egyptians, and Moroccans) as well as read many posts from these various groups. When asked where they are from many of them shouted the name of their country which in itself is not the problem or issue. But when I ask about them being African or about Africa they quickly added a disclaimer, “Well, we aren’t really African we’re Arab.” or they would just say that they are Moroccan, Egyptian or whatever their country’s nationality is, but not African. When asked why aren’t they African they say, “We don’t have much in common culturally with other Africans” or “We have a distinctive look that is different from the other Africans.” Many Europeans can use the same argument as a disclaimer to disconnect them from Europe as well but they don’t. Europeans do not have an inferiority complex! Some have also said directly that they associate Africa with animals and naked “uncivilized” people running around in the jungle so they don’t define themselves as African and/because they don‘t want people to describe them as being African. Find me one person or one country in Europe who feels this way about the continent of Europe! Europeans do not feel these negative associations about Europe! This is Psychiatry 101 and any respectable psychiatrist would clearly easily label this kind of thinking and behavior as poor self image and an inferiority complex on part of Africans. Its that simple. Do you agree or disagree and why?
Keino said “Another horrible misconception is Europe = humans and intelligent and Africa= Animals and unintelligent. This is the core of where the concept of “in Africa, but not African” comes from. Its an inferiority complex due to the present false perceptions of Europe and Africa. ALL Africa has been colonized, “imperialized” and under the exploitative control of Europe for many many years now. It is these divisive tactics that are now employed to keep ALL African confused, bickering and non-unified while Europe reaps the benefits and continues to build itself. Africans have to unite to build us their country first then the continent as Europe did”.
Ozzy Responded: Where do you get the idea that Europeans are a united people or countries, and what areas of Africa are you talking about that are still under control by European countries.? Are you talking about industry contracts (Off sea Oil, Gold, titanium etc) by countries like France on the west coast etc or something else?
Keino Replied: I must admit I was not as clear about this point as I should have been. I did not mean that the continent of Europe is one big united “country“, in fact its the opposite. What I mean is that EUROPE is a unified concept to European countries and that alone gives the individual European countries comfort in numbers and security in their country on the European continent. Some countries do feel like they are smarter than others (i.e. dumb blonds of Switzerland and dumb polish jokes told by other European), more attractive than others (pretty blonds of Switzerland and ugly fat Russian and German women) , even more powerful than others. However, they do not feel that claiming to be European is negative or would cause people to have negative associations with them for solely being European:- why would they based on the status of Europe today? Many Africans, Europeans and people of African descent honestly do feel this way about these two countries whether they care to admit it or not; many do not consciously realize it either. This perception the two continent is perpetuated in the media every single day; African= jungle, naked bushmen, uncivilized, negative, Europe= cities, clothed people, civilized, positive! This is classic conditioning and operant learning at its best! We humans because of our intelligence are very susceptible to conditioning more than any other animal! Do you agree or disagree and why?
Ozzy Responded: If I could as you say “Put my two cents in” I feel you are confusing the scentiments of Americans with the general population of Europeans. A great number of Europeans have never even seen a Black man. And there is no singular coherent identity as “European” among the country people in most European countries. And it is certainly not based on the belief that “European is superior or better and anything African as inferior and bad”
Keino Replies: I disagree with your perception of my incentives for the way I analyze and see the Europe and African debate. You don’t have to see or interact with a Black person to develop a preconceived notion of them based on images one sees in the media. You don’t have to visit African or Europe either to develop a preconceived notion of those continent either just watch TV or look at any other media. These prejudices can be wrong or right (which is not the point), but they are preconceived ideas non the less and can influence our behavior whether its positive or negative. A picture is worth a thousand words! Do you agree or disagree and why?
Ozzy Responded: As you have pointed out Europe is a diverse cultural, religouse, and political continent, and yes they do call themselves European, but my experience has been that the word is based on Geography not a union of an idea of superiority. They are too busy making jokes about how stupid each other are to be bothered with Africa which is to us so close but to many many of them so foreign.
Keino Replies: As I stated above, Europeans will never deny that they are European no matter how different the phenotype, culture, or language. They do not have an inferiority complex with the continent of Europe as many Africans have concerning the African continent. Many Russians look very Asian, but they will NEVER say that their continent is “in Europe, but not European”, but many present say Egyptians and Northern African countries will state, “we are in African, but not African!” A Russian can look 100% Asian (like many do) but never deny being “white” even though their phenotype is clearly Asian or some variant of Asian. On the other hand its easy to find an Egyptians or even Ethiopian who is clearly phenotypically black but denies that he is black. Now honestly, why do you think this is? Do you agree or disagree and why?
Ozzy Said: Believe me you would be surprised in this day and age the isolation and lack of education of a great chunk of the population in country Europe. And for this I think we should be thankfull, for they have not been affected by this type of thinking.
Keino Responds: Affected by what kind of thinking? What do you mean by that? Ignorance is not isolated to any people, sex, country or continent.
Ozzy Said: If you have been to Europe and traveled in the country areas Keino, you will have now doubt been stared at. This would seem to you to be because you are considered Black. It may be, but it is more based on the fact you are different (and being black you are real different) than the locals. Not for being Black and associated with Africa and any associated preconcepts of what a black man is.
Keino Responds: I am aware of this. People stare because of difference that are noticed and the curiosity that differences bring whether good or bad. Being black would be only on thing that makes me different. I really don’t get your point here.
Ozzy Said: I have been to a number of countries including the one I live in now were I have been the subject of interest and in some cases prejudice. Not because I am black, because I am not, but because I am different. In America (Washington, LA, and New YORK) no one ever considered I was not a white American until I opend my mouth, however, I stood out in Spain, Portugal, England, France,Italy, Greece, and many other countries in Europe. I don’t get picked for a German, nor an Englishman, nor a Sweed. Who they are used to seeing here as tourists. I stand out. And my children were excluded not so much because they were different but because I (Their Father) was someone to be couscous of. What I am getting at is its not racism, its nothing more than peoples fear of something different and unknown, and these American scentiments of racism are not a general part of the greater population of Europe. If it was then my being white would be enough for anyone in Europe to accept me, whoever this is not the case, and in fact if I were to be a little darker I would most likely have had less trouble than I do.
Keino Responds: My point here is not about racism at all. I don’t know where you are getting this from. My main point in my posts is to state why we perceive things the way we do. Those preconceived notions can lead to negative(stay away from, bad, hate, anger) or positive (explore, good, love, peace) things. Who wants to be associated with negative things? Not me and I’m sure not you either!!
Ozzy said: Here in the Canary Islands the half West African,(Father) half Isrealy (Mother) family who live next door to me are a larger part of the local community than I am.
Keino Responds: In my country its the same way. Its about being Bahamian and belonging to the culture. A Jamaican, Haitian, white or Black American, or English person would stand out because of their different culture and the way they talk. I grew up in a very integrated country. I don’t really get your point on race.
Ozzy Said: If you could answer the questions above I would like to ask more. And ausar if you are wondering were this is going in regards to Egypt I think this does have relivence to Egypt as almost all Africans I have met or currently know have a different view of Europe and the world than that of America, and I would dare say that the same goes for rural Egypt. I hope I am proven right when I finaly am able to visit the country areas.
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75% of Africa is black (UN Stats). the great majority of them live south of the Sahara desert.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kem-Au: i have no idea wtf anyone is talking about. i need to learn another language.
No you do not. It is for others to realize the rudeness of their conversing in a language not understood by everyone else. It is the same as two people whispering to each other at the dinner table, where others are present. [la shookrun,khawaga is like 'thanks to you, white boy' and a take on Horemhab it seems] And has anyone seen the irony of the question "Do North Africans consider themselves Africans?" It's like "Do the Boers consider themselves Africans?" The important question is whether or not Africans consider Arabs or Boers to be Africans. On this I agree with Nkrumah: "If in the past the Sahara divided us, it now unites us, and an injury to one is an injury to us all."
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 March 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Wally: No you do not. It is for others to realize the rudeness of their conversing in a language not understood by everyone else. It is the same as two people whispering to each other at the dinner table, where others are present. [la shookrun,khawaga is like 'thanks to you, white boy' and a take on Horemhab it seems] And has anyone seen the irony of the question "Do North Africans consider themselves Africans?" It's like "Do the Boers consider themselves Africans?" The important question is whether or not Africans consider Arabs or Boers to be Africans. On this I agree with Nkrumah: "If in the past the Sahara divided us, it now unites us, and an injury to one is an injury to us all."
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 03 March 2004).]
Are you being rude and foolish on purpose? This isn't an Arab language forum. Most of the people here probably speak English. Why couldn't you simply respond with "Empty talk!" so others can review what I had to say in order to see if they in fact agreed with you, or with my point.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Are you being rude and foolish on purpose? This isn't an Arab language forum. Most of the people here probably speak English. Why couldn't you simply respond with "Empty talk!" so others can review what I had to say in order to see if they in fact agreed with you, or with my point.
Wally, these words are so easy that everyone can discover their meanining. Every person with average intelligence. Moush kida?
quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: Wally, these words are so easy that everyone can discover their meanining. Every person with average intelligence. Moush kida?
Come on now! We are not here to insult each other. I'm sure most people on this site are very intelligent even if we dissagree with they points of view concerning Egypt. Lets get back to discussing AE.
[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 06 March 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Ayazid: Wally, these words are so easy that everyone can discover their meanining. Every person with average intelligence. Moush kida?
The most typical response from someone unable to discuss or debate an idea or issue is to attack the individual. Unable to attack the message, they feel compelled to attack the messenger. Either that or to indulge in irrational and immature bable. It is their way of registering defeat.
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