Are you Italian?

Visit The Zar Revisited at: http://www.bdancer.com/zarrevis.html

And the Mysterious Zar at: http://www.shira.net/arabella/zar.htm

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Originally posted by GiggleGirl:
Total idiot here!! What is a zar ritual?? What does it do?

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If you are at all familiar with Voodoo or Voudum, you know what Zar is...
"Zar, in the sense of possession, is usually, though not exclusively, inherited. It is also contagious and may strike at any time. Diriye Abdullahi, a native of Somalia, says that the zar is basically a dance of spirits, or a religious dance - kind of leftover from the old African deities, a variant of what we describe in the west as "voodoo". The old African deities were headed by two figures; Azuzar (the male, assoc. with Osiris) and Ausitu (the female, known in the west as Isis). Ausitu (or Aysitu in Somalia) is still celebrated and given offerings by pregnant women so that she will provide them with a safe birth. He describes it as a ritual dance which is mostly observed by women, especially older women. This corresponds to the practice of older African religions, in which older women were the priestesses. He maintains that younger women, especially unmarried women, are not generally thought to be "worthy of a visit by the spirit of Zar, who chooses domicile or residence in the person who is his choice."

Traditionally, women are carriers of the Zar tradition. A Zar is a spirit. Some Ethiopians and Yemenis have their own Zar, like a guide of guardian angel. The dance ritual, Zar, like other traditional healing ceremonies, as for instance practiced by the !Kung of Southern Africa, is done to regain a sense of balance and harmony in one's life and in tandem with the community.

The word Zar is thought by some to be a corruption of Jar which in the Cushitic language of the Agaw people is the word for Waaq the sky god. The Rastafarians call god Jah.

And Yah is a very old Ancient Egyptian word for God.

See also:

The Zar: Women's Theatre in the Southern Sudan,"Women's Medicine: Zar Cult in Africa and Beyond, ed. by Ioan Lewis, Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1991

Most of these ceremonies occur amung the balady Egyptians that live in poor to middle class neighboorhood. The elite will pratice in them to from time to time,but mainly amung the poor Egyptians.

Yes,the praticioner[kodia] is usually female that charges money for her ritual to different clients.

Sei del Sud? Interessante. When I was young I used to gaze at the Mediterranean Sea trying to see the southern tip of Italy, and when I see any land, I tell my father I was able to see Italy.

Indeed southern Italy did interact with Egyptian civilization several times in history, like during Ottomans, when Egypt’s main port was made Rosetta (the Italian name given to Rashid). I know also that thanks to southern Italians many words have entered our society, like Roba vecchia, pronounced roba becchia (I had in the south, some pronounce b instead of v)
I have made a list of words that I know at the my site, at the following page: http://www.youregypt.com/interlanguage/italian1.htm

I am not sure whether the Zar and tarantism are results of interaction of the two countries, although the two words are amazingly close.

Most Egyptians know that Zar is made to expel “evil spirits” from someone, mostly women. I recall old Egyptian movies featuring the famous Mary Mounib. Mounib looks to her daughter who is having some troubles in marriage. She then would recommend a Zar for daughter to feel better.

Why is the rush for Zar if it is a myth?
Does it feel better? Yes, mostly, but not because spirits are expelled, yet because the type of movement and shakings do energize one’s body, soul and thinking. It is like “letting yourself go” or like rock dancing and sports.

Of course many Egyptians nowadays do not believe in Zar, but they don’t feel shame for it, because there are rather stranger things, like SeHr or Amal (sorcerers) which is still popular among the poor. Some driver I know narrated to me how his newlywed son couldn’t “make it” with his wife after the wedding ceremony, because someone “rabat-ha” (tied her or prevented her by spirits). Of course the solution was to get to another sorcerer to “untie” the spell.

Though of course clerics condemn such things as against religion, some people insisted they are not, or try to put side explanations.
Certainly they don’t believe these thing is kind of paganism, even if they are so, however they believe they exist and as long as one gets healed, they are right.

If I got you right, you were asking whether I feel Zar is commercialized?
Certamenente, credo di si … but for people who resort to Zar, it like a priest getting paid … the priest has a family to feed. Right?

Abbia Cura

Not to be off topic,but there are places in Cairo where people live in trash. They have developed a whole buiness around this trash.

I am also curious if the Ottoman took any Egyptians to the Mediterranean countries like Greece or Scily? Possibly as slave or soliders? We all know that the ancient Egyptians absorbed some ancestry from Sardanians and Scilians who was part of the Sea People during the 19th dyansty.

The Ottomans hated the average Egyptian peasent and saw them as inferior people. Most of the Fellahin[then 95% of Egypt's population]. So it may be possible that interactions could have occured this way.

Does anybody have any information on this?

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Originally posted by IdrusaAgarena:
Well, theories. Like old aunties. Everybody has its own...
A question for Wally: have you ever witnessed a Zar ritual? I see you quote english studies. I guess you must be a skilled observer. Are you Egyptian?
Hope to hear from you all soon.

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Have I ever witnessed a Zar ritual? Are you kiddin' me?? I am an African American who was born in (Voodoo) Louisiana. It's my culture! But you don't have to be from Louisiana to be familiar with this phenomenon...

One of the first things you learn as a Black youngster is that when you go to church on Sunday, DO NOT SIT NEXT TO A WOMAN, especially a middle-aged one. When this "zar spirit" hits one of these women (it usually affects several women almost simultaneously), they begin to gesticulate and shout out loud. They then, usually, make their way to the church's aisle where they begin to dance themselves into a trance like frenzy, eventually feinting or becoming rigid, where they have to be fanned and literally carried out of the auditorium. And your biggest fear is that this spirit might also hit you!

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Originally posted by Wally:
Have I ever witnessed a Zar ritual? Are you kiddin' me?? I am an African American who was born in (Voodoo) Louisiana. It's my culture! But you don't have to be from Louisiana to be familiar with this phenomenon...

One of the first things you learn as a Black youngster is that when you go to church on Sunday, DO NOT SIT NEXT TO A WOMAN, especially a middle-aged one. When this "zar spirit" hits one of these women (it usually affects several women almost simultaneously), they begin to gesticulate and shout out loud. They then, usually, make their way to the church's aisle where they begin to dance themselves into a trance like frenzy, eventually feinting or becoming rigid, where they have to be fanned and literally carried out of the auditorium. And your biggest fear is that this spirit might also hit you!

The only thing missing is some formalized ritual, which obviously isn't necessary.

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Wally,

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Wally,

We called this the Holy Ghost where I'm from. I assume it is that what it's called the same thing in LO. Have you ever seen those ritual dances done in the carribean? Not sure if they're done here.

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Wally,
Looks like we have a little more in common. I guess you grew up in a Southern Baptist Church.

What I know is that Ottoman Sultan Selim the Grim did steal valuables of Egypt when he invaded Egypt in 1517, after defeating the Mamluks. He did “take” professional Egyptian workers and handcrafters to beautify Istanbul.
I believe Ottomans did not bear special hatred for peasants because they generally looked upon non-Ottomans with inferiority.

Fact 1: Most of the current problems of the Middle East are outcomes of the Ottoman Era’s inheritance.
Fact 2: Egypt was isolated from the development that swept Europe in the Middle Age, thanks to 3 centuried of Ottoman rule.

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Originally posted by ausar:

Does anybody have any information on this?

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I understand the policy of the Ottoman Turks,but many Egyptian peasents were forced into millitary postions that were possibly brought to other parts of the Mediterranean. This is why I ask because I feel there might have been some sort of an exchange through this process.

here is some excerpts I got from various books I read:

..and before 1850 the native Egyptian was treated,like fellahin
everywhere in the empire,as a beast of burden. The Turks left
considerable local authority to non-Turkish ruling groups,esepcially
in the less acessible districts: examples are the Kurds in their
mountain-valleys: the Shia Arab tribal cheifs in Lower Iraq;the Druze
amirs who then dominated the Lebanese mountains. Even the defeated
Mamuluks remained more numerous than the Turkish officals and
soliderly in Egypt. They were indispensible for the administration of
that country;their amirs remained govenors of the sanjaqs[sub-
provinces];and they continued out centuries to maintain their numbers
by importing fresh slaves,especially from the Caucaus. By 1600 no
distinction could be made between the Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks
in Egypt. Both were called 'Turks' to differentiate them from the
native Egyptian;Turkish blood and speech had pre-pondered among the
Mamuluks from the beggining

Page 60

A Short History of the Middle East

G.E. Kirk

The growing of summer rice and corn,
along with winter wheat and barley, and sugar, tobacco and indigo
also increased. His projects were paid for by revenues from taxing
Egypt's illiterate peasants -- ninety percent of Egypt's population --
whom he forced to labor on his projects, whom he conscripted into
his army and whom he despised as barbarians. And peasant revolts he
crushed with brutality.
http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h37-af.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Wally,

We called this the Holy Ghost where I'm from. I assume it is that what it's called the same thing in LO. Have you ever seen those ritual dances done in the carribean? Not sure if they're done here.

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Yes, we also call this the Holy Ghost in (Voodoo) Louisiana.

Since the Caribbean is essentially a collection of African islands, you are sure to see some manifestation of this phenomenon there - especially in Haiti. For example, in Cuba, whose majority population (61%) is of African descent, you have the Santeria religion -- same thing.

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Originally posted by Raymon:
IdrusaAgarena,

Of course many Egyptians nowadays do not believe in Zar, but they don’t feel shame for it, because there are rather stranger things, like SeHr or Amal (sorcerers) which is still popular among the poor. Some driver I know narrated to me how his newlywed son couldn’t “make it” with his wife after the wedding ceremony, because someone “rabat-ha” (tied her or prevented her by spirits). Of course the solution was to get to another sorcerer to “untie” the spell.

Though of course clerics condemn such things as against religion, some people insisted they are not, or try to put side explanations.
Certainly they don’t believe these thing is kind of paganism, even if they are so, however they believe they exist and as long as one gets healed, they are right.

If I got you right, you were asking whether I feel Zar is commercialized?
Certamenente, credo di si … but for people who resort to Zar, it like a priest getting paid … the priest has a family to feed. Right?

Abbia Cura

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Raymon, I'm curious like a monkey! First thing I'll go and check your list! I know there is some modern palestinian short story called Rubabika, which seems to be our 'roba vecchia' stuff too. After our eastern break I'll give you a list of arabic words in southern dialects, to make a fair cultural exchange.

Wally, are you sure that there are no rites whatsoever? That makes a clear distinction between Egyptian and Salentinian possession rites though. The codification of a rite makes a lot of difference. But ask some old lady, would you? I'd like to know better.

Ausar, well, there was my King Frederic II who loved madly Arabic-related cultures. He founded Lucera, only for his friends from around the mediterranean, so I wouldn't be surprised if some encounter occurred at an intellectual level (scholars of religion). And may be that the Turks in their 25 years Imarat in Bari could have brought with them egyptian soldiers too. But I think that 'something' we have in common belongs to a more antique era, even older that Ancient Egypt. Certain cults let modern scholars think that we were culturally the same thing in the Neolithic eve. Then you developed marvellously before us to follow after quite a while.

Sure is that we must motivate some young egyptian anthropologist to investigate the issue, and to proceed to due comparison.

It can be done, maybe right in America, but it must be done.

Returning back to the issue of commercialisation..I wouldn't really blame the Kodia that needs some money, or desperate sellers of crap in the dregs of the City who look just to be alive. I judge those New Age fans that borrow respectable, ancient, beautiful traditions (like...hmmm...ours?)and sell them away in cheap workshops. That wounds me. Like what happened with tasawwuf too.

I will return in few days ... and I'd see what I can do ...

My gosh ... I miss home ...