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Author Topic: The Egyptian Mysteries System
Phacshuoal
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Greetings, I am hoping there are those among this Spiritually powerful forum who can enlighten me on the Egyptian Mysteries
System.

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Kem-Au
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quote:
Originally posted by Phacshuoal:
Greetings, I am hoping there are those among this Spiritually powerful forum who can enlighten me on the Egyptian Mysteries
System.

I'd like to learn a little more about this myself. I do know that this was a hotly debate issue when Martin Bernal's, Black Athena was getting headlines. Perhaps you should start there.


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Phacshuoal
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Thank You Kem-Au, for your help in this area, I will as you suggest....investigate
the lead that you have so graciously provided, again I thank you for you help.

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Horemheb
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The 'Black Athena' is not an academic study. It has been throughly discredited.
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ausar
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Actually, Black Athena is not as academically defecient as you say. Bruce Trigger and other Egyptologist have admitted Black Athena has raised many interesting questions that deserve regonition. The debate is an ongoing debate between scholars and has carried over in 2004. Martin Bernal is know preparing a book called Debating Black Athena in responce to Black Athen Reivsited.


The black label can be decieveing an Bernal admits that he could have had the title African Athena as opposed to ''Black'' Athena. Bernal tend to favor Phonecian influce in ancient Greece as opposed to Egyptian-African influces.


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Horemheb
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Ausar, I usually give you very high marks for your scholarship. Even when we disagree you always approach the subject from an objective point of view. In this case though you must know that among academians that work is throughly discreited. Actually the entire Afrocentric movement is being debated. We simply have no room in academics for politics. Obviously it seems in but these people have taken it right off a cliff. Read some of Dr. Lefkowitz' work on the subject. I think we'll eventually get around to doing something about it.
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ausar
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I have read all the literature invovled in the Black Athena debate. Martin Bernal has never once claimed to have been an Afrocentric nor endorses such thought. Certainly he is respected in this arena but what his book served as he stated ''To curve European arrogance in history''.

The person who coined the phrase Afrocentric was Molefi Assante and not Martin Bernal. Martin Bernal previously was a scholar at Oxford University specilizing as a Sinologist. He might have been a little out of his league but he made some interesting arguments.


Like I said in my earlier post,Bernal deserves a critique in his work that is professional and not on a unprofessional crtique that much of Leftowitz did. Leftowitz herself admitted that Bernal's claims were legitmate,but she attacked unfounded scholars like Melanist and Leonard Jefferies and not Bernal.

Read Bernal Responds to hist Critics or Black Athena Writes Back. The debate is not fully over. It has only begun.




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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
The 'Black Athena' is not an academic study. It has been throughly discredited.

The many views in Black Athena Writes Back have been generally accepted since the Black Athena debate began.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
The black label can be decieveing an Bernal admits that he could have had the title African Athena as opposed to ''Black'' Athena.

Thought Writes:

Why do you think the Black label is decieving?


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
We simply have no room in academics for politics.

Thought Writes:

The question is, did modern academia evolve within a political millieu (Romanticism)that skewed evidence and espoused a Eurocentric version of history?


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
I have read all the literature invovled in the Black Athena debate. Martin Bernal has never once claimed to have been an Afrocentric nor endorses such thought.

Thought Writes:

The real question is are any two so-called "Afrocentricists" even the same in terms of ideaology? Or is the term "Afrocentric" a loaded slogan utilized to stifle openess and debate.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
He might have been a little out of his league but he made some interesting arguments.

Thought Writes:

Why do you feel he was out of his league?


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ausar
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Thought,Bernal said himself that the ''black'' in Athena was never his idea. He argued for a black foundation for Egypt,but admitted that Lower Egyptians were much different from the people in the south. Infact read the first Chapter in Black Athena Writes back where he feels the people in Lower Egypt were close to Western Asian poeple. He quotes Keita as his source for this information.


I feel Bernal might be out of his league because he has no degree in classics nor any formal training in Afro-Asiatic linguistics. His specaility was Sinology which is Chinese history.


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Horemheb
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There is no Eurocentric version of history. I'm trying to keep from being impolite here but frankly I am offended by books like the 'Black Athena.' I hate to use words like garbage but that is what it is. If I had a dollar for every mistake in that book I could pave the highway between Houston and San Antonio.
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ausar
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Well,if you feel this way then you should be able to defend your argument with much better expressions than what you have done. Point out to me what mistakes Black Athena makes and make sure to include all the volumes if you have read every one of them. We don't need hyperbole but academic criticism that is deserved in any discourse.



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Horemheb
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Fisrt Ausar, I don't have to do that. I have taught at the college level for 23 years, eat lunch with collge professors every day of my life and have the responsibility to train the next generation of Americans in liberal arts. I quickly discovered on this board that studies that do not agree with the prevailing Afrocentric (leaning) disposition here are simply dismissed.
Now, lets go to 'Black Athena.' When someone tells me that Cleopatra VII is black I am talking to an uneducated goofball. This goes WAY BEYOND exchanging studies. Give me a few minutes to thumb through the material and I'll give you a response.

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Horemheb
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OK...I'm not going to say much because after looking over Dr. Lefkowitz' essay and some of the 'Black Athena' debates it's even sicker than I remember.
You can't refute it with scholarly arguments because he goes so far off the board. I will touch on three and we'll leave it at that;
Socrates is black? How do you debate nonsense like that. Its not in dispute between serious scholars, never has been and never will be.
Plato in Egypt? He never said that? Where is the evidence? An infrence is not evidence especially centuries later.
Aristotle in the library at Alexandria?
Possible, if it existed at the time which most doubt. And if so how do we know what he might have stolen in terms of hard evidence?
I personally think it is just trash. Thats the best I can do for it. I'll deal with why we get such trash in my next post.

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Horemheb
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Ausar, i think something else is at work here. I have thought about it a great deal as Dr. Lefkowitz says she has as well.
The question is , why this preoccupation with so called 'Eurocentricism' on the part of minorities, especially black minorities.
Is is part of the victim mentality that is so prevelant in the United States?
Why the 'need' on the part of these people to transform pre Victorian tribal cultures into something other than what they were. To literally 'look for' any justification to butress so call 'Africanism?' Why sacrifice a poosible academic reputation to promote what is nothing more than a political movement.
Lets call it what it is. In saying this I am not demeaning the importance of any individual nor their equality before God. Africa is and has been a backward contient. It offers little to the rest of the world that any of us would want to imulate. Until western culture arived with colonialism it was mired in tribalism (for the most part) centures behind most of the western world. No amout of Afrocentricism can change that fact. An American black once told me, "thank God I'm here and got to live in America." Its like mexicans who come to the US from Mexico to get all of the advantages of this culture and then join movements that seek to reestablish the same poverty stricken culture here in America they left.
Any African should run from all things African, that equates to poverty and economic retardation.
The problem is that in the end Africentricism is a complete waste of time. It will never prevail because most of it is wrong and studied for all the wrong reasons. As you know it has gone so far it is already causing a back lash which will only grow.
The greatest creation of Euro-American culture is western academics. That it cares about stealing anything from Africa is absurd, it doesn't have to. In fact, without it there would be no people like Bernal becase we would still be trapped in some by gone era trying to survive.

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Phacshuoal
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Gentlemen! Please help me by returning to my initial request which if my memory serves me correctly, was my seeking enlightenment in regards to the "Egyptian Mysteries System" although I as most, do enjoy a live and spirited debate, I would deeply appreciate your help on that which I have asked, I thank you all for whatever help in my requested area of interest that you can provide me as well as whomever else that may be interested in this same subject.
Again, Thank You

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Horemheb
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Well Phacshuoal, according to Dr. Lefkowitz there is no Egyptian Mystries System. You have to watch a lot of these things. We have some pseudo-scholrs who build their whole life on hating western civilization.
Their particular culture or region lost out in the march of civilization and they can't deal with it. Don't fall into that hole, it doesn't lead anywhere but to more bitterness.

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ausar
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Horemheb,the Leftowitz book Not of of African was not about Martin Bernal but was about the book Stolen Legacy. Leftowitz dedicated a special book for debating Martin Bernal in Black Athena Revisited.


The fact you are a college professor means very little to me. When people make comments they see flaws in the argument but never point them out and then go on to exagerate by boisterous name calling means nothing.

Let me adress a few points:

1. I have never heard anybody not even exreme Afrocentric people ever describe Socrates as black. Looking at his picture and his description by one of his colleges leaves one to wonder if he was a native Athenian.

2. The Cleopatra claim comes from JA Rodgers from the 1930's. Rodgers made many claims that were not accurate and Leftowitz pointed this out. Sometimes people use this in a strawman to knock down the claims of the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians. I am in agreeance that Cleopatra was not Egyptian and she belonged to a line of Macedonians. Macedonians usually inbreed with each other thus she could not have been Egyptian or Nubian.


3. The claim that Aristotle stole knowleadge from the Library from Alexzandria was claimed by George G.M. James in his book Stolen Legacy and not by Bernal.


4. Plato's visit to Egypt comes from another source in Strabo's writtings. We truly don't know what Plato absrobed from Egypt,but we do have a quote from Socrates himself that claims Egyptians were the first philsophers. Plato scrons the Hellenistic people for being such lazy people and talks highly of an Egyptian mathematical game. You can find this in Plato's book Laws.


5. Leftowitz's claims Egyptians had no philsophy outside of the Pyramid Texts. This is incorrect because Egyptians clearly had some vestiages of philsophy that can be seen in assorted wisdom texts including A dialogue with a man and his Ba. Leftowitz is ignorant of Egyptian texts. This is to be expected since her specialty is classics not Egyptology .

Horemheb,I don't agree with you acessment with Africa either. Many kingdom thrived even in the heart of Africa well before Europeans arrive. Western and Central Europeans comparied to many parts up to the Industrial Revolution was up to par. Sure there were areas in Africa that lagged behind but let's compare the Mediterrean European region to say the British Isles where most of Americans come from. You will see how much your opinions are distorted.


I can prove that Africans had sucessful economic systems and democracy well before Europeans arrived. One does not need to fabricate myths to do this but to show ''true'' African history that is not very well publicized.

Greco-Roman writers like Cicero went so far to call Northern and Western Europeans,particulary from Britian,''so stupid they were incapable of slaves''. Let imagine also that Aristotle when ranking people in the classical word also found the interior of European to be an abysmal wasteland. Muslims writers from the 7th century in Cordova Spain commented on how Slavic and Nordic Europeans never even bathed or washed themselves.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 24 May 2004).]


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Phacshuoal
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Horemheb, though I have prior to my initial & posts up to now, not heard of Dr.Lefkowitz
but I do know that when as you said that he
says that there was no Egyptian Mysteries System that he has only a eurocentric western indoctrination regarding this issue.
After having doing a bit of research regarding the Egyptian Mysteries System, i.e., Dr. Yosef-ben Jochannan......From what I gather the Egyptian Mysteries System was the teaching system for the making of Egyptian Priests, according to Dr. Ben; it took forty years of training to make a priest in all of the disciplines. They were taught in what was named the "Grand Lodge".
So you see Horemheb it is not about hatred of the european, nor following any roads that lead to bitterness, but rather the quest for truth, civilization began in Africa, that has and can be proven as the remains of the world's oldest hueman beings
do exist and are in both Kenyan and Ethiopian museums. I totally concur with Ausar, as he one of our many Spiritual voices of our ancestors he is a True African.

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ausar
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Marry Leftowtiz is a classics teacher at Welseley Unversity.

I am not sure about the Mystery system myself and I believe some of the concepts were incorporated into Egypt by Masonic teachings during the 19th century. It's doubtful priesthood training took 40 years since the life span of most Egyptians is not that long.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Thought,Bernal said himself that the ''black'' in Athena was never his idea. He argued for a black foundation for Egypt,but admitted that Lower Egyptians were much different from the people in the south. Infact read the first Chapter in Black Athena Writes back where he feels the people in Lower Egypt were close to Western Asian poeple. He quotes Keita as his source for this information.

Thought Writes:

The lower Egyptians may have been somewhat different from the people directly south of them, but that does not mean they were not Black. In addition, Angel long ago demonstrated that early some Western Asians and Europeans had affinites with tropical Africans.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
I feel Bernal might be out of his league because he has no degree in classics nor any formal training in Afro-Asiatic linguistics. His specaility was Sinology which is Chinese history.

Thought Writes:

As you stated to Horemheb, a degree means very little. It is the facts and evidence presented that should be the focus. Bernal is a very capable linguist and many of his theories in one manner or another are beginning to gain mainstream acceptance as demonstrated in the book "Ancient Egypt in Africa" by O'Conner and Reid.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
There is no Eurocentric version of history.

Thought Writes:

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the concept of "Western Civilization" which by its very nature equates to Eurocentrism.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Marry Leftowtiz is a classics teacher at Welseley Unversity.

I am not sure about the Mystery system myself and I believe some of the concepts were incorporated into Egypt by Masonic teachings during the 19th century. It's doubtful priesthood training took 40 years since the life span of most Egyptians is not that long.


Thought Quotes:

Black Athena Writes Back
Martin Bernal
2001
Page 389

"If anything, the onus of proof should be on those who deny both the significance of these striking similarities between Egyptian and Greek mysteries and the widespread Ancient testimony that the latter had come from Egypt, rather than on those who are inclined to support traditions."


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Horemheb
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First of all only a fool would deny substantial African background in Ancient Egypt. The arguments on this board and other places simple deal with the degree. It is my view that Africanist go way to far in that regard.
In terms of Eurocentricism, it doesn't exist in terms of historical bias. Nobody is stealing anyone's history. Frankly, even if you were to totally concede AE to the Africanists you would be left woith nothing else on the contient that would seriously influence in a positive way the march of modern civilization. Africa today is the most poverty stricken, education deficient, aids infested area of the world. It continues to fall further and further behind the first world nations with little if any imaginable way of catching up. Yes, some of it's histroy is colorful but not relevant to the main thrust of modern society.

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blackman
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quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
First of all only a fool would deny substantial African background in Ancient Egypt.

Horemheb,
Don't be so harsh on yourself.

[This message has been edited by blackman (edited 25 May 2004).]


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Horemheb
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Hug and a Kiss Blackman
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blackman
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quote:
Originally posted by blackman:
Horemheb,
Don't be so harsh on yourself.



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ausar
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The discussion is not about the current socio-political condition of the African continent. What we are talking about is pre-history and Neolithic Africa culture that deserves attention from archaeologist. I could go into more political discourse but I will chose not to.
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Phacshuoal
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Ausar,
from what I could find further regarding the Egyptian Mysteries System is that there is a definite connection, and I would venture to feel that out of the African(Egyptian) teaching system, came proponents
that were the basis and foundation for what we know today as Freemasonry. "Certain instructions were given toe to toe, shoulder to shoulder, mouth to ear. I will go no further than that". "Some of you may know how that was done and under what conditions". The English adopted it and called it Freemasonry. Sir Albert Churchward's book, Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man, is a cornerstone of Freemasonry. Churchward was a big man in England. Besides being a physician, he was also one of those who made English Freemasonry what it is today. So in another adaptation, the British took twenty-two tablets from Egypt, brought them here, (London) and set up what they called "Freemasonry." Of course, the Americans followed suit. These are the words of Dr. Yosef-ben Jochannan.
Thank You for your input, in fact let me thank all of you for your help regarding the Egyptian Mysteries System.

[This message has been edited by Phacshuoal (edited 25 May 2004).]


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Horemheb
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Ausar, it is revelant to this extent. If the conditions in Africa and amoung minorities in general are such that they create a victim mentality problems arise. That is what gives rise political movements like the Africanists. It is exactly what CREATES the need to distort all the history that you want to talk about. In that sense it is relevant to neolithic history and all history in general.
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homeylu
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Originally posted by Phacshuol:
I would venture to feel that out of the African(Egyptian) teaching system, came proponents
that were the basis and foundation for what we know today as Freemasonry

That would appear accurate, most Masons point it origins to an Ancient Egyptian Mystery system. George Washington was a mason, and on the back of One dollar bills, there is a symbol with an eye above a pyramid which is supposed to be some sign of a New World Order. Some have even claimed the the eye in the middle of the sun, is supposed to be a symbol of the Egypian Sun God. We do know that George Washington was a Mason. The mason supposedly worship the sun, moons, etc. although I'm not sure of this its only heresy.


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homeylu
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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Africa today is the most poverty stricken, education deficient, aids infested area of the world. It continues to fall further and further behind the first world nations with little if any imaginable way of catching up.

Do you question how Europe went from being a resourceless, backward, starving, disease ridden and destitute subcontinent to commandeering most of the world's wealth while Afrika went from being the cradle of civilization with most of the gold, rich lands and mineral resources to being a vast expanse of arrested social and technological development?

Can you even began to grasp the correlation between European military and political ascendancy, its wealth and Afrika subjugation. We've been duped into believing Europeans have a higher standard of living because they are smarter and work harder; rather than realizing Europeans (Western Society) are where they are today because of their history of covetousness, imperialism, larceny and rapine. The so called age of exploration wasn't a time of scientific investigation, mutually beneficial, ethnic, racial and cultural relations or exchange. The whites made out like the bandits they were/are.

The military power (imperialism) Europeans possessed in comparison to the Africans was the only thing superior. The bow and arrow was definitely no match to the cannon ball. Imperialism and Colonialism created wealth generating opportunities and improved the quality of life throughout Europe while simultaneously introducing disease, social disruption, death, ecological and trade unbalances everywhere they set foot on planet earth. This was true no matter which European nation was involved. Not to mention how the whites forced or attempted to force the indigenous inhabitants of the lands they invaded or the millions they kidnaped or bartered for around the globe to work for little or nothing to enrich the mother countries.

This type of "white supremacist" attitude is what continues to blind people from realities. Africa was flourishing while Europe was still in the Dark Ages.

Thank heavens, the world can witness the destructive imperialistic nature of the Europeans in a modern sense, in how they are destroying Iraq,(which is only one country, mind you) in order to control the oil. This same evil was imposed on Africa continent wide.

Why dont you discuss how the Berlin Conference of 1884 in which 14 European nation states including the United States sat around a large table and carved up the continent conspiring to shanghai its riches, its natural and human resources and plotting to appropriate them for their benefit.

Lets not pretend that colonialism was to benefit "civilize" the Africans. Show it for what it really was.

"Africa accounts for a significant proportion of U.S. imports-100% of industrial diamonds; 58% of uranium;48% of cocoa; 44% of manganese used in producing steel, 40% of antimony to harden metals; 39% of platinum, 36% of cobalt for jet engines and high strength alloys, 33% of petroleum, 30% of beryl used in weapons and nuclear reactors, 23% of chromite used in gun barrels, 21 % columbium-tantalum for heat resisting alloys in missiles and rockets and 21% of coffee," from Imperialism and Dependency Obstacles to African Development.by Daniel A. Offiong

And all of this was controlled by Apartheid WHITE South Africans who still in modern times oppressed the Black south Africans.

Your type of "white supremacist" attidude that you biasly spread, is the main purpose we need to spread "Afrocenticism". And please believe me when I tell you, that people like myself with be at the forefront of this movement.


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Phacshuoal
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quote:
Originally posted by homeylu:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
[b]Africa today is the most poverty stricken, education deficient, aids infested area of the world. It continues to fall further and further behind the first world nations with little if any imaginable way of catching up.

Do you question how Europe went from being a resourceless, backward, starving, disease ridden and destitute subcontinent to commandeering most of the world's wealth while Afrika went from being the cradle of civilization with most of the gold, rich lands and mineral resources to being a vast expanse of arrested social and technological development?

Can you even began to grasp the correlation between European military and political ascendancy, its wealth and Afrika subjugation. We've been duped into believing Europeans have a higher standard of living because they are smarter and work harder; rather than realizing Europeans (Western Society) are where they are today because of their history of covetousness, imperialism, larceny and rapine. The so called age of exploration wasn't a time of scientific investigation, mutually beneficial, ethnic, racial and cultural relations or exchange. The whites made out like the bandits they were/are.

The military power (imperialism) Europeans possessed in comparison to the Africans was the only thing superior. The bow and arrow was definitely no match to the cannon ball. Imperialism and Colonialism created wealth generating opportunities and improved the quality of life throughout Europe while simultaneously introducing disease, social disruption, death, ecological and trade unbalances everywhere they set foot on planet earth. This was true no matter which European nation was involved. Not to mention how the whites forced or attempted to force the indigenous inhabitants of the lands they invaded or the millions they kidnaped or bartered for around the globe to work for little or nothing to enrich the mother countries.

This type of "white supremacist" attitude is what continues to blind people from realities. Africa was flourishing while Europe was still in the Dark Ages.

Thank heavens, the world can witness the destructive imperialistic nature of the Europeans in a modern sense, in how they are destroying Iraq,(which is only one country, mind you) in order to control the oil. This same evil was imposed on Africa continent wide.

Why dont you discuss how the Berlin Conference of 1884 in which 14 European nation states including the United States sat around a large table and carved up the continent conspiring to shanghai its riches, its natural and human resources and plotting to appropriate them for their benefit.

Lets not pretend that colonialism was to benefit "civilize" the Africans. Show it for what it really was.

"Africa accounts for a significant proportion of U.S. imports-100% of industrial diamonds; 58% of uranium;48% of cocoa; 44% of manganese used in producing steel, 40% of antimony to harden metals; 39% of platinum, 36% of cobalt for jet engines and high strength alloys, 33% of petroleum, 30% of beryl used in weapons and nuclear reactors, 23% of chromite used in gun barrels, 21 % columbium-tantalum for heat resisting alloys in missiles and rockets and 21% of coffee," from Imperialism and Dependency Obstacles to African Development.by Daniel A. Offiong

And all of this was controlled by Apartheid WHITE South Africans who still in modern times oppressed the Black south Africans.

Your type of "white supremacist" attidude that you biasly spread, is the main purpose we need to spread "Afrocenticism". And please believe me when I tell you, that people like myself with be at the forefront of this movement.[/B]


Jus tha Phacz and nuthin but tha phacz, Great post Homeylu.


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Artemi
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Geezlouise!
I thought this was going to be a thread about spirituality and Egyptian mysticism!
Instead it gets turned back into the sameoldsameoldsameold argument!

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Phacshuoal
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Artemi, it is a post about the egyptian
mysteries system, there are those that find it necessary to speak negatively about African-Centered knowledge and issues, had Horemheb not made the statemnt he did, I venture to say you have not been reading Homeylu's response. Dialogue among Africans
is crucial, its empowering, and its Spirit-ually unifying, it is always necessary to immediately "Put in check" those who make negative statemnts in regards to Africa and its people. I somehow would imagine that the true problem is when those outside of the African Family try to serve up their thoughts on African Family business, even if the subject line is not sustained.

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cassia
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What was that original question?
The AE system of mysteries ...

Out of my head ...
Jump on me for sources ...

In AE ...
- There was a variety of different kinds of priests, each having a different specialty.
(Remember, "church & state" were not divided. Further, priests were considered extention of the pharaoh, a little like the Roman Catholic pope today.)
- Some priestly positions were passed down through families, and so training would have begun for those from early childhood.
- Some priestly positions were quite honestly part time. There are a kazillion cross-referenced accounts this - 4 month stints; 1 season per "shift" - 2 seasons off.

The original question could refer to either secret initiatory societies OR magics. I will respond to the former. First, at least.

The Masons ...
Do not realisticly think that their magic is based in Egyptian "stuff".
By the time the Masons came into existance, Egypt was Moslem. Obviously, the hieroglyphic language was lost - and nobody even knew for sure what the pyramids were all about. Masonic "stuff" comes out of the Greek mysticism in fact, with a dash of Kabbala. Whatever the Greeks had written was what the Masons extrapolated from. As an example of what I mean, you can tell their roots by their treatment of the 4 quarters, and their usage of the Arch Angels (VERY busy, those four, since they are used in the mystical systems of all the "peoples of the Book" ... ya know, Raphie, Mickie, Uri & Gab?) ...

Masons were born of the crusades, people!!!

Masons do not worship "the sun and the moon", as such. To be a Mason is to believe that there is one omnipotent God ... but who the individual Mason decides that omnipotent One is, and how many layers of divinity lie between "it" and us is not dictated. Therefore, people from every religion in the world can in fact be a Mason.

Historically, the Masons were impressed with certain honestly Egyptian "amulets of power", like composition right angles and plummets. And they liked that Eye of Heru, too! They built up a truly beautiful philosophy surrounding it all - which had nothing to do with Egyptian philosophy, for the reasons stated above. (For good pictures of the right angle & plummet amulets, check out Carol Andrews' Amulets of Ancient Egypt, Pgs 85 - 86.)

I will unequivically state that until the latter half of this century, mystical systems purporting to be AE weren't.

Will resend with appropriate chronology.
The Masonic thing just made my eyes cross a little ...

(A synopsis of AE basic magics would be no short post. I could post a book list ...)


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cassia
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PS: Please let this not turn into a Mason bashing post!!!

They do NOT think of themselves as "Egyptian", and so shouldn't properly be a topic in this forum about that which is!

Please remember that almost 100% of what you will find online is written by Masonic detractors.

Thank you!


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ausar
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The Masons most likley originate around the Middle Ages with people like the Chelvars and Knights Templear. Lots of Masons like Mozart did admite ancient Egypt putting ancient Egyptian themes within some of his musical plays like the Magic Flute.

European Masonary was also very much influced by already existing Islamic secret soceities like the Ishmalis[Hashhasians]. The Masonic pratices within America are the York and Scotish Rite who are directly desended most likley from the Knights Templear.


Interesting you should mention magic because many magical pratices from the ancient Egyptians were later taken upon by early Christains and even Arabs. The magical pratices of the past continue to exist in rural areas of Upper Egypt. You could write a whole book upon magical survivals within Upper Egypt. From the exceration rituals down to the love spells and even the amulets are the same.


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cassia
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"The Masonic pratices ... are directly desended most likley from the Knights Templear."

Right!
11th century - Seresons took over the "holy land, incl. Jerusalem. Thus began the first crusade.
The first crusade was "successful". The police force left to maintain control, mostly French, took up residence in what was known as "the temple of Solomon." They wrote to the Pope to say that they should be called the "Knights Templar".
To become one of the Knights Templar, one had to give all their worldly possessions to the group.
To aid pilgrems, the Templars hired masons to build castles along the pilgramage routes, from the Danube - Turkey - Gilbralter, from the Rhine - Marcelles ...
This created a secondary group - The Masons.
They studied math and archetecture and decided that they were maintaining the wisdome of the original designer of the pyramids. (Whatever rocks one's boat!)
In 1304, Phillip King of France decreed that the Templars had to be stomped, and there was a "Templar Burning Party" as the group was outlawed. But the Masons were never outlawed ... so there ya go.

Just to prove I'm not hallucinating, a search with King Phillip and Masons turns up: http://asms.k12.ar.us/armem/daymart/masons.htm http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/centennial/2.html


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Phacshuoal
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Ah......Cassia it is quite obvious that you are well versed on the european view of things, I tend to be quite skeptical of any-
thing written by the majority of europeans.
Your statment that "Masonry was born out of the crusades people" is a bit much to take,
remember, Africa came first, and masonry could very well have emerged before or during the crusades, but if we are to give proper credence to civilization begining in Africa,
which gave the concept of the family, which
also gave us monotheism, as you stated in your writing, I guess that might be classed
as Egyptian "stuff"? huh. It is irrelavent
that the masons did or didn't worship the
sun, the Egyptians certainly did, and from my understanding they viewed the sun as the
ultimate source of life and that which caused and sustained the creation of life.
Be careful when you come with your mind full
of eurocentric world views that in essence
has not served the truth well, not trying to tell you what to or what not to think, just wanting you to view things through African eyes, unless of course you are not an African. The Spiritual side of me tells me that you mean well, and most certainly have good intentions with the information that you have provided, know this, all greek knowledge is African knowledge, and the Egyptian Mysteries System from what I have gathered, was indeed a system of teaching and priest developement in many
disciplines, that I would venture to feel,
had little to do with magik, but of course
thats just a feeling, and feeling are not necessarily based on facts, which is what is being sought here regariding the Egyptian Mysteries System.

"It is a privalege to be African, but all Africans must unite"!


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Wally
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You all seem not to be familiar with the Rosicrucians:
"Rosicrucian, «ROH zuh KROO shuhn», Order is an international nonsectarian fraternity that studies the higher principles of life as expressed in humanity and nature. Members of the Rosicrucian Order learn about philosophy and the arts and sciences. The organization originated in ancient Egypt, where schools were formed to study humanity and nature.

The Rosicrucian Order first came to America in 1694. Many of its members made important studies in music, art, and painting. Today, Rosicrucians study the trends of history and attempt to apply their philosophy to meeting life's problems. Members believe that people must understand and live in harmony with nature. The Rosicrucian Order is not a religion.

The full name of the Rosicrucian Order is the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis. Its emblem is a gold cross with a red rose in the center. Headquarters are in San Jose, Calif.

Critically reviewed by the Rosicrucian Order "

--Their awe of the Ancient Egyptians, however, have them portraying them as your everyday European..But, we already know this symptom, so let us not digress...


[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 28 June 2004).]


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cassia
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The original question was about Egyptian mystery systems, and somebody mentioned Masons.

Phacshuoal, if you want to claim that Masons are older than the 11th century, of the French, and born in Jerusalem, it's now up to you to prove that claim with some level of actual documentation. Please do.

Wally, please prove the claim that the Rosecrusians are older than the 15th century.

These are both originally medieval European magicl systems. They are both lovely systems, but it doesn't help to claim that they were born in AE. If we do this, we are going to miss what IS AE.


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cassia
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I have found that one quintessential acid test to verify the true roots of a magical system is the group’s treatment of the moon.

The moon in AE is masculine.

The actual disk of the moon is Iah, a god Himself (like Aten is as the sun disk). In reality a number of gods are *associated * with the Moon, most often include Khonsu and Wesir and Sokar, sometimes Djehuty, and infrequently Heru. Djehuty wears the moon-crescent on His head in some images and He also has the story about winning days from the moon (although the actual story's Greco Roman and so may be more about Hermes than Djehuty). Khonsu's name means "traveller", and He is often also depicted with a crescent on His head.

Wesir has the oldest associations with moon: Wesir is said to be the moon itself (the sun in the Duat, a connection between Ra and Wesir), and his sister-wife Aset is the one who restores the moon, either as Wesir or as Heru. Coffin Texts 155-6 may very well support Djehuty-as-crescent theory.

All the moon festivals I've been able to unearth in terms of actual "full moon" and "new moon" have been related to Heru (Moon is one of His eyes) and Sokar-Wesir as Ra in Darkness or the "sun of night."

References for Wesir as Moon, related to Ra in the Duat:
*J. Gwyn Griffiths, "The Standing Statue of Osiris-Iah (Osiris – moon disk) at Lyon,"
Journal of Egyptian Archaeology volume 65 (1979), pages 174-175.
*J. Gwyn Griffiths, "Osiris and the Moon in Iconography," Journal of Egyptian
Archaeology volume 62 (1976), pages 153-159.
*E. A. Wallis Budge, "Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection."
Not the best source, but even has an entire chapter called "Osiris as Moon God."
*Coffin Texts (Faulkner) Utterances 93, 155-156 and others
*Book of the Dead (Allen) Utterances 2, 65a, 162var.
**Note: logic says the Pyramid Texts, from which both of these arise, will have earlier versions, but I cannot find my copy today so I can't check on this immediately.

On relationships of Djehuty, Sokar, and Wesir: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/sokar.html

Coffin Texts 155-6 may very well support the Djehuty-as-crescent theory. After explaining in 155 and most of 156 that the moon, and particularly the New Moon, are associated with Wesir, it offers this tantalizing tidbit at the end of CT 156:
"I know the souls of Khmun.
What is small in the full month and what is great in the half-month, that is Djehuty."
(the references sound to me like the waxing and waning crescents).
No extant calendars from Khmun exist sadly; the temple of Djehuty was taken down to its foundations about a century ago to feed a lime-kiln.

In Sumer, the moon is masculine as well - Nanna / Suen. In worship, people treated his wife Ningal (name meaning “Great Lady”) as lunar too, but her association was strictly through her marriage with Nanna / Suen.
*Thorkild Jacobsen, "The Treasures of Darkness", Yale University Press
*Thorkild Jacobsen, "The Harps that Once ...", Yale University Press
*Michael Roaf, "Cultural Atlas of Mesopotamia", Andromeda Oxford
*anything by Samuel Noah Kramer

Conversely, in the Jewish Kabbalistic system, the moon is distinctively feminine.
The Goddess of the Kabbala is Matronit, and there are references to Shekhina-Matronit as “Moon with the hair”.
*Raphael Patai, “The Hebrew Goddess”, Wayne State University Press.
*Tikva Frymer-Kensky, "In the Wake of the Goddesses", MacMillan

In Greek and Roman also, the moon is distinctively feminine. Artemis, Selene, Luna, Hecate, all of these reflect various aspects of the moon. Egyptian Aset had no direct relation to the moon, being masculine. She is the Sothic star Sirius, and her reappearance begins Egyptian New Year. The Greeks and Romans greatly venerated Aset, who they renamed Isis, but their theocracy dictated that the sun must be male and the moon must be female, and so Isis became for them related to the moon.

[This message has been edited by cassia (edited 29 June 2004).]


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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by cassia:

Wally, please prove the claim that the Rosecrusians are older than the 15th century.




That's for the Rosecrucians to do. I really don't care how old they are...


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homeylu
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"The Egyptians believed that matter had always existed; to them it was illogical to think of a god making something out of absolutely nothing. Their view was that the world began when order came out of chaos, and that ever since there has been a battle between the forces of organization and disorder…This chaotic state was called Nun, and like the Sumerian …descriptions …, all was a dark, sunless watery abyss with a power, a creative force within it that commanded order to begin. This latent power which was within the substance of the chaos did not know it existed; it was a probability, a potential that was intertwined within the randomness of disorder."

There is a striking similarity between the myths of Ancient Egypt and modern materialist thinking. A hidden reason for this interesting fact is that, there is a modern organization that has adopted these Ancient Egyptian beliefs, and aims to establish them throughout the world. This organization is Masonry.
The Ancient Egyptian materialist philosophy continued to exist after this civilization disappeared. It was adopted by certain Jews and kept alive within Kabbalist doctrine. On the other hand, a number of Greek thinkers adopted the same philosophy, and reinterpreted it and perpetuated it as the school of thought known as "Hermeticism."

The word Hermeticism comes from the name of Hermes, the Greek counterpart for the Ancient Egyptian god "Thoth." In other words, Hermeticism is the Ancient Greek version of Ancient Egyptian philosophy


So even if it came from the Greeks, the Greek got it from the AE! Hence the AE "origins"---As in the "orginal" believers.


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homeylu
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Also at the entrance of the Grand Masonic Lodge in Washington D.C. there are symbols of 2 Ancient Egyptian Sphinxes. So the Mason do redit the Ancient Egyptians with a lot of their beliefs, even if the originated third party via the Greeks.
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