posted
Since everyone seems to want to continue to dance around the Ancient Egyptians own views regarding who they were, I have revised my Ancient Egyptian Litmus test and made it easier by making it a multiple-choice quiz. (I'm determined to keep their voice in this discussion.) I'll post the answers in about a week:
1) According to the Ancient Egyptians, which racial or ethnic group did they belong to?
a) Mediterranean b) Libyan c) Black d) African
2) According to the Ancient Egyptians, from which two places did the ruling classes originate from? And what were their ethnic names?
a) Libya/Lebu, Sudan/Anu b) Arabia/Aribia, Canaan/Oamu c) Punt/Shemsu Hor, Sudan/Anu d) Greece/Weinin, Hatti/Hittites
3) The Ancient Egyptians created a social science now called ethnology, which also contained a social bias; how did the Ancient Egyptians rank the three racial groups that they were familiar with?
a) Black, Semite, White b) White, Semite, Black c) Semite, Black, White d) Semite, White, Black
4) According to the Ancient Egyptians, Egypt was Kmt, what synonym did they use to refer to Upper Egypt?
a) Ta Meh b) Ta Shemo c) Kemi d) Tawi
5) The Ancient Egyptians, who routinely caricatured foreign peoples, came to caricature themselves, and allowed for the fact that all men were indeed equal. What was the name of the Pharaoh who initiated this?
a) Amenemhet b) Rameses II c) Thutmoses III d) Ikhnaton
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 1) According to the Ancient Egyptians, which racial or ethnic group did they belong to?
a) Mediterranean b) Libyan c) Black d) African
I can't answer this one. It would be like saying Americans are white. Even though nearly 80% of Americans are white caucasions, it's not a factual to call Americans white. I have always interpreted the Ancient Egyptians to see themselves as racially diverse. From their paintings and statues we can assume that generally they saw themselves as darker than Asiatics and Libyans while lighter than Nubians and other Africans from below the Sahara. Phenotypically, Egyptians varied and mixed a variety of physical characteristics as they do today. I have seen Egyptian statues that look very caucasion and just as many that look very negroid. I have no problem with the fact that ancient Egyptians looked no different than people look in Egypt today from region to region.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 2) According to the Ancient Egyptians, from which two places did the ruling classes originate from? And what were their ethnic names?
a) Libya/Lebu, Sudan/Anu b) Arabia/Aribia, Canaan/Oamu c) Punt/Shemsu Hor, Sudan/Anu d) Greece/Weinin, Hatti/Hittites
The pre-dynastic period until dynasty 1 seems to have origins in lower Nubia. However, after the introduction of the Hyksos to Egypt, there were many ruiling families in lower Egypt, some of whom had origins in Libya or Canaan.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 3) The Ancient Egyptians created a social science now called ethnology, which also contained a social bias; how did the Ancient Egyptians rank the three racial groups that they were familiar with?
a) Black, Semite, White b) White, Semite, Black c) Semite, Black, White d) Semite, White, Black
What a load of crap. The Egyptians didn't rank races based on physical appearance. For starters, race was defined as one's ethnic group or nation, not one's skin color or physical characteristics. What you are talking about is something created during the Enlightenment by white supremacists. Ancient Egyptians didn't view race as we do today.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 4) According to the Ancient Egyptians, Egypt was Kmt, what synonym did they use to refer to Upper Egypt?
a) Ta Meh b) Ta Shemo c) Kemi d) Tawi
Ta Meri
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 5) The Ancient Egyptians, who routinely caricatured foreign peoples, came to caricature themselves, and allowed for the fact that all men were indeed equal. What was the name of the Pharaoh who initiated this?
a) Amenemhet b) Rameses II c) Thutmoses III d) Ikhnaton
Tough one. I think Amenhet or Thutmoses III but I'm not sure. I can't believe it would be Akhenaten or Ramses II.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 1) According to the Ancient Egyptians, which racial or ethnic group did they belong to?
a) Mediterranean b) Libyan c) Black d) African
Like you said, we've danced around this question tirelessly. The answer is black, for Egyptians weren't aware of the idea of 'continent'. They were however fully aware of 'empire', and made no mistake about their own race. So as a result they saw themselves primarily as 'Egyptians', and saw Libyans and Mediterraneans as distinct foreign groups.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 2) According to the Ancient Egyptians, from which two places did the ruling classes originate from? And what were their ethnic names?
a) Libya/Lebu, Sudan/Anu b) Arabia/Aribia, Canaan/Oamu c) Punt/Shemsu Hor, Sudan/Anu d) Greece/Weinin, Hatti/Hittites
I believe this was the Punt/Shemsu, Sudan/Anu.
quote: Originally posted by Wally: 3) The Ancient Egyptians created a social science now called ethnology, which also contained a social bias; how did the Ancient Egyptians rank the three racial groups that they were familiar with?
a) Black, Semite, White b) White, Semite, Black c) Semite, Black, White d) Semite, White, Black
Is this supposed to be some trick question? At any rate, I guess the answer is Black, Semite, White.
quote: Originally posted by Wally: 4) According to the Ancient Egyptians, Egypt was Kmt, what synonym did they use to refer to Upper Egypt?
a) Ta Meh b) Ta Shemo c) Kemi d) Tawi
Ancient Egyptians apparently saw Upper Egypt as part of the empire to which they related. So I will go for 'Kemi'.
quote: Originally quoted by Wally: 5) The Ancient Egyptians, who routinely caricatured foreign peoples, came to caricature themselves, and allowed for the fact that all men were indeed equal. What was the name of the Pharaoh who initiated this?
a) Amenemhet b) Rameses II c) Thutmoses III d) Ikhnaton
I don't want to even pretend I know the answer to this one!
quote: Originally posted by neo*geo: I can't answer this one. It would be like saying Americans are white. Even though nearly 80% of Americans are white caucasions, it's not a factual to call Americans white. I have always interpreted the Ancient Egyptians to see themselves as racially diverse. From their paintings and statues we can assume that generally they saw themselves as darker than Asiatics and Libyans while lighter than Nubians and other Africans from below the Sahara. Phenotypically, Egyptians varied and mixed a variety of physical characteristics as they do today. I have seen Egyptian statues that look very caucasion and just as many that look very negroid. I have no problem with the fact that ancient Egyptians looked no different than people look in Egypt today from region to region.
Neo*geo, you would probably be right about Egypt, if we were talking about Egypt 'today'. You try to make a comparison between Ancient Egypt and modern America. While, it is true that it would be incorrect to label modern America a particular race, the same doesn't hold true to Ancient Egypt. Basically, it is like saying Ancient America is the same racial makeup as it is today. This would be incorrect! The same way, AE was of different racial makeup than it is today. Don't be fooled by the current racial makeup. Do you honestly think that the original AE racial makeup included Arabs or Semites, or Europeans? We've gone through this time and time again. It has nothing to do with agenda, just setting records straight. Blacks never had one particular feature or shade of dark color, even today in Africa. In this regard, ancient Egyptians were no different from other parts of Africa. I have yet to see a full blown 'Caucasian' statue by Egyptians...please give me a reference for that!
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 21 June 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by supercar: You try to make a comparison between Ancient Egypt and modern America. While, it is true that it would be incorrect to label modern America a particular race, the same doesn't hold true to Ancient Egypt. Basically, it is like saying Ancient America is the same racial makeup as it is today. This would be incorrect! The same way, AE was of different racial makeup than it is today.
If the question was "were the pre-Dynastic Egyptians 'black Africans'" I would reply yes. However the period of 'Ancient Egypt' spans over 3000 years and it's highly unlikely that a country like Egypt's racial make-up would not be affected by all the wars and population migrations over that length of time. By the end of the Middle Kingdom, Egypt's population was becoming even more diverse as there was heavy migration from Palestine and Libya. Let's not ignore the fact that lower Egyptians since pre-dynastic times were for the most part, not black Africans. Upper Egypt in pre-dynastic times had some homogenity and most in that time could be defined as 'black'.
Are you telling me these people were not Egyptians?
(You have to copy and paste the links to your browser)
quote:Originally posted by supercar: Don't be fooled by the current racial makeup. Do you honestly think that the original AE racial makeup included Arabs or Semites, or Europeans?
Yes and there is archaeological evidence to support migrations of Syrio-Palestinian and Greek peoples to AE as early as the end of the pre-Dynastic period. These people may not have looked the same as the pre-Dynastic Egyptians but their descendants most likely assimilated and eventually became Egyptians. They weren't the majority but they existed.
quote:Originally posted by supercar: We've gone through this time and time again. It has nothing to do with agenda, just setting records straight. Blacks never had one particular feature or shade of dark color, even today in Africa.
You don't have to convince me that there were blacks in AE or that the pre-Dynastic Egyptians were predominantly black Africans. There is no record to set straight. Egypt's population became very diverse early.
quote:Originally posted by supercar: In this regard, ancient Egyptians were no different from other parts of Africa. I have yet to see a full blown 'Caucasian' statue by Egyptians...please give me a reference for that!
The Egyptians were different from other parts of Africa in the fact that geographically they weren't isolated from non-black populations. Keep in mind that there are non-white caucasions and I showed you some statues that looked caucasion above. You really have to have an open mind. It's no question that AE was an African civilization and culture but the physical contrasts that we see today between lower and upper Egypt existed since the Old Kingdom.
[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 21 June 2004).]
[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 21 June 2004).]
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Neo*geo, you seem like a well informed person, but you don't honestly expect me to conclude that the pictures of statues you provided here are of Caucasians. The first guy did look like he was on the borderline in terms of features. The last guy (I believe it is Ramses) looks like he has full lips like a Negro, but the nose is somewhat that of a long slightly curved high-bridged nose. This suggests that he probably looked like what an Ethiopian would look like, and they are considered 'Negro'. Don't get me started on the second picture; he has the classical 'Negro' features. I am not suggesting that there weren't migration of foreigners to Egypt in the pre-dynastic or even in the dynastic period for that matter. These migrations however, didn't change the general makeup of the Egyptian population that much. The same holds true for the captives of wars. Significant intermingling took place more so in the declining period of the dynastic times. Even so, today when you go to Egypt, you'll still find that the mixed population is actually a minority. The majority of the population are the Fellaheen group, mostly in Upper Egypt. This group has for the most part remained homogeneous or not mixed! The majority of them retain their 'Negro' features. Lower Egypt is where you'd find most mixed races due to centuries of slow intermingling with Arabs, Greeks, Romans, and to some extent French. Even in the pre-dynastic times, though the Lower Egyptian natives had lighter skin color than the ones in the south, they weren't Caucasian. They had various facial features ranging from thin high bridged noses, high bridged hooked noses to broad noses, thin lips to full lips, wavy hair to curly or woolly hair and so forth. I recommend check out the following website, to give you an idea of the primary racial makeup of Ancient Egyptians. http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/~hfairchi/courses/Fall2002/EGYPTSLIDES2.htm
If for some reason you can't get through, please let me know, and I'll fix the problem!
By the way, what is your definition of a black man, and since when did Caucasians become black men? Could it be since the discovery of a remarkable civilization like AE?
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 21 June 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by supercar: Neo*geo, you seem like a well informed person, but you don't honestly expect me to conclude that the pictures of statues you provided here are of Caucasians.
Believe what you like. I'm not going to split hairs with you over them but anyone can see that they don't have black African physical features.
quote:Originally posted by supercar: By the way, what is your definition of a black man, and since when did Caucasians become black men? Could it be since the discovery of a remarkable civilization like AE?
Are you joking? I'm black myself so you can trust that I call it as I see it. Just because I don't agree with you 100% doesn't mean I disagree or I have some kind of agenda. I don't have any agenda, I just hate how both white and black supremacists try to misrepresent ancient Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Are you joking? I'm black myself so you can trust that I call it as I see it
That is a form of special pleading. Even if it could be verified it would not be relevant.
quote:Believe what you like. I'm not going to split hairs with you over them but anyone can see that they don't have black African physical features.
But that is also unsound reasoning. Appeal to popularity - "anyone can see that i'm right". In fact, we can't. Respectfully, In order to agree with you we'd have to accept ipso facto your notion of what constitutes Black features.
Perhaps you can explain the origin, and genetic basis for these features and moreover, expound, with proof, on who does and does not belong and why:
Do the Zulu possess them? How about the Somali? The Dinka? The Masai? The Khoi-San?
quote:Originally posted by rasol: But that is also unsound reasoning. Appeal to popularity - "anyone can see that i'm right". In fact, we can't. Respectfully, In order to agree with you we'd have to accept ipso facto your notion of what constitutes Black features.
I don't see the point in giving my opinion of what physical characteristics define blacks or caucasions. Opinions are like assholes and you know the rest. I understand that mixed people, especially ancient and modern Egyptians, don't fit so well into strictly defined racial categories so there is no point trying to put them into one. The statues I posted were Egyptians who look distinctly caucasion however most portraits I've seen depict people who can't easily be defined as negroid or caucasion.
posted
Some good answers...I'll post the answers in a week. And did you notice how this guy neo cleverly avoids answering the questions and baits you all into a "debate"...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Are you joking? I'm black myself so you can trust that I call it as I see it. Just because I don't agree with you 100% doesn't mean I disagree or I have some kind of agenda. I don't have any agenda, I just hate how both white and black supremacists try to misrepresent ancient Egypt.
Neo*geo, you seem to have a tendency to dodge questions you were asked. I asked you for the definition of a black man, and instead I get the kind of answer quoted above. I could care less myself if you agree or not agree with me. I provided my point of view on those statues, because, I know for a fact that Africans come with diverse facial features and shades of dark color skin. How do I know this? I am African, and have been to various parts of Africa including Egypt. These so-called facial features and skin color is nothing more than adaptation to the environment. I really don't know what features you call 'African' or 'black'. However, I do know that Ancient Egyptians and modern Egyptians will always have more in common with other African peoples than any other peoples, no matter who tries to put a spin on it. To imply that because I refuted your comment, I am a supremacist, shows utter ignorance on your part to say the least!
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Wally: why do you call them ancient Egyptians anyway...instead of Kememu?
Well I guess that I could, but I certainly wouldn't give the English translation on this forum! I think the following terms are optional and interchangeable:
1) Ancient Egyptian - the word "Egyptian" is based upon an Ancient Egyptian word (ht kpt pth - pro. Ae gyp toh) and is not foreign, so I think acceptable.
2) Kemetian is probably a more accurate name, as long as you don't translate it!
3) Kememu is also valid, but it refers more to the populace than to the nation, so:
Ancient Egyptian - Kemetian Ancient Egyptians - Kememu
I think I will start to use these terms, however you would still have to write Kemetian(Egyptian) or Kememu(Egyptians), otherwise the average person wouldn't know what you were talkin about...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 21 June 2004).]
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Here is a link by By Gregory M. Gordon, a History Professor at the College of Lake County, Grayslake, Illinois-U.S.A. on his fair and logical account of Ancient Egyptian Dynasties, including the Pre-dynastic period. It is backed by references, analyzing the works and views of Egyptologists, scholars and advocates...and yes even the "Eurocentric" and "Afrocentric" views are analyzed with care. This is pretty much where I personally stand when it comes to Ancient Egypt, a notice to those who wish resort to labeling me as this or that. http://clcpages.clcillinois.edu/home/soc460/KEMET1.HTM
posted
Interesting reading, and reasonable view to be sure.
re: Mary Lefkowitz, Not Out of Africa, and Cleopatra.
The problem I have with Lefkowitz' scapegoating of "Afrocentrics" over the trivial question of Cleopatra's racial origin- (she really does go on an on about it), is that the falsification of Cleopatra's identity originates in classic (Eurocentric?) teachings, not in recent Afrocentric ones.
Most believe that she was not only Egyptian but that she was the greatest, most important, most famous, and most famously beautiful of "Egyptian" queens. All....not true.
Ironically, it is probably the Afrocentrists who have inadvertently played the greater role in setting the record straight.
Afrocentrist: so Cleopatra was Egyptian and therefore Black, no?
Eurocentrist: Noo! She wasn't even Egyptian so couldn't have been Black....she was Greek!
posted
It's obvious we've gone off topic, so I'll give the answers, (supercar's answers were the best...
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Since everyone seems to want to continue to dance around the Ancient Egyptians own views regarding who they were, I have revised my Ancient Egyptian Litmus test and made it easier by making it a multiple-choice quiz. (I'm determined to keep their voice in this discussion.) I'll post the answers in about a week:
1) According to the Ancient Egyptians, which racial or ethnic group did they belong to?
a) Mediterranean b) Libyan c) Black d) African
The answer is c (The question was "according to the Ancient Egyptians," not "according to neo*geo")
2) According to the Ancient Egyptians, from which two places did the ruling classes originate from? And what were their ethnic names?
a) Libya/Lebu, Sudan/Anu b) Arabia/Aribia, Canaan/Oamu c) Punt/Shemsu Hor, Sudan/Anu d) Greece/Weinin, Hatti/Hittites
the answer is c; and a shrewd person would have said it's Mesnitu for Shemsu Hor
3) The Ancient Egyptians created a social science now called ethnology, which also contained a social bias; how did the Ancient Egyptians rank the three racial groups that they were familiar with?
a) Black, Semite, White b) White, Semite, Black c) Semite, Black, White d) Semite, White, Black
the answer is a, which was discovered and recorded by French Egyptologist Champollion
4) According to the Ancient Egyptians, Egypt was Kmt, what synonym did they use to refer to Upper Egypt?
a) Ta Meh b) Ta Shemo c) Kemi d) Tawi
The answer is c (Synonym is a word that has the same, or nearly the same, meaning as another word.)
5) The Ancient Egyptians, who routinely caricatured foreign peoples, came to caricature themselves, and allowed for the fact that all men were indeed equal. What was the name of the Pharaoh who initiated this?
a) Amenemhet b) Rameses II c) Thutmoses III d) Ikhnaton
I thought that this was a "gimme" question. Ever hear of the Amarna Revolution in Kemetian art during the reign of Ikhnaton? Notice in this art form how the royal family's images are distorted like the ones you see of foreigners. No longer are the Kememu represented as perfect human creatures...but I think you get the point.
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 22 June 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Wally: 5) The Ancient Egyptians, who routinely caricatured foreign peoples, came to caricature themselves, and allowed for the fact that all men were indeed equal. What was the name of the Pharaoh who initiated this?
a) Amenemhet b) Rameses II c) Thutmoses III d) Ikhnaton
I thought that this was a "gimme" question. Ever hear of the Amarna Revolution in Kemetian art during the reign of Ikhnaton? Notice in this art form how the royal family's images are distorted like the ones you see of foreigners. No longer are the Kememu represented as perfect human creatures...but I think you get the point.
Just a comment: The reason for the distortion I believe, had more to do with creating a more realistic representation of the subject/Pharaoh (real person)involved. This was considered the primary reason Akhenaton sanctioned that method of art, although a secondary reason may well be the promotion of idea that"all men are equal".
posted
I don't post much any more but I still read the board everyday......
"Believe what you like. I'm not going to split hairs with you over them but anyone can see that they don't have black African physical features."
I just couldn't let this one go.....no offence Neo....
Black people must stop doing this, it's ridiculous and unfair. any one please tell me who other than black people choose to let themselves be defined by the ideas of an outside group.....amazing, seriously. WE are the only group that does this because we still have a long way to go to get rid of the brain washing.
Europeans define themselves by themselves
Asians define themselves by themselves
Australians define themselves by themselves
Africans (black people) define themselves by European standards
Whats wrong with this scenario, why have we given up the basic right to define ourselves by ourselves that no other population has given up.
Marley said " EMANCIPATE YOURSELF FROM MENTAL SLAVERY NON BUT OURSELVES CAN FREE OUR MINDS"
Most of us were not listening to the Prophet.
I see post after post talking about who was black and who was not, again using the definitions of Blackness from the group that oppresseed us for so long , Geez wake up. Don't u see something wrong with that.
I don't agree with some of the stuff wally says but he does not seem to have the problem that some of us do. He defines who is black by black standards and no one elses, which is as it should be. Other groups do this and there is no problem .....we do it and we are being racist .......WTF!!!
All the other groups define themselves by themselves we must take back this basic right that all other groups enjoy
Ancient Egypt was Black and African in every way....I don't care who wandered over from outside of africa across the desert or sea....millions of blacks in some other continent Europe, Asia, take your pick, does not all of a sudden make it a black culture or black country yet this same phenomenon reversed gives some the excuse to say what was African and who was Black yadada yadada......BS
Black people stop giving up a basic right that all groups have
Caucasian features originate in Black africa yet we sit here and listen to another group tell us that if some of us look like them then we may not be black but a brown caucasoid which is not black or African....it's a mindf*%K.
THEY, LOOK LIKE US, we do not look like them. Some one please tell me how a parent can look like his child, CHILDREN LOOK LIKE THE PARENTS, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Caucasian features are black african features and we have allowed ourselves to be convinced they are not.
Nort East Africans have looked "Caucausoid" for millenia, before any white person or any non-black person walked this Earth. Use your mind logically and u will understand what is being said here.
This dark Upper egyptian light skin lower egyptian stuff is foolish-ness, really. so what if middle eastern types were around in Lower egypt they were not from there originally....u don't come there and then take over definitiion of the area or culture that was already there.
No non-white person tells white groups who is white and who is not and if they tried they would be laughed at. No none Asian tells an Asian who is Asian and who is not they decided that amongst themselves millenia ago and do not allow other groups to change it for them.
I saw an Australian Aborigine tell a geneticist (Dr Spencer Wells) to his face he knows nothing about the true origin of HIS PEOPLE. He could care less what his research said. Imagine that, he defined himself by the standards of his history, his culture, and his people.......thats how it is supposed to be. Avoid the racist trap of thinking any other way about your own group
Other groups defend this right vigourously Why do we allow this right to be controlled by outsiders.........all u black folks who think the brainwashed way WAKE UP because u are holding the Blacks who know the deal BACK!!
NON-BLACK PEOPLE IGNORE THIS POST IT IS NOT FOR YOU......THIS IS AN INHOUSE ISSUE...STAY OUT OF IT.
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Off the topic but...Obenga, I read your comment and I just couldn't help it but laugh through it. However you do make a point, when you say that we shouldn't allow others to define our race for us. I have made a point on this issue many a times, by asking 'what' is supposed define a black man...we aren't obviously restricted to those definitions given by western scientists. I think blacks, because of their oppressed past, and to some degree even today, tend to focus on how other races perceive them, rather than focusing on how they perceive themselves. No doubt, this should stop!
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It needed to be put that way in plain terms that are not hard to follow. There is a paralysis of analysis going on here and Blacks are the only ones caught up in it.
We allow others to say who we are and where we come from. This is no ones Biz but ours, we decide that, no one else, it is not up for debate by outsiders who we are.
They do not allow it to be done to them, we should not allow it to be done to us. The same scenario reversed gives very different results. That is the case because when reversed the non-black group would never allow Blacks to define who they are, what their culture is and what is or is not their history. The very thought of that is ridiculous to every group except Black people......PROVE ME WRONG ANYONE
Can anyone imagine Europeans defineing themselves and the history of the European continent by the definitions of professors from new Guinea.......... How about Asians deciding who they are and what their history is based on research done by professionals from Iceland.....Funny right, but thats what we do.
It's that simple
[This message has been edited by Obenga (edited 23 June 2004).]
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Obenga - I have yet to give my physical definition of a 'black person' yet you're putting words into my mouth and assuming I apply the outdated Eurocentric definition. I think I pissed a few people off by saying that there were caucasions in Egypt since pre-dynastic times but most of them were non-white and indigenous to Africa. I have no doubt AE was an African civ but I don't agree that they were all black people in the same sense that Sudan or Haiti are black countries.
Why can't we live and let die here? Why are people not satisfied until everyone is in agreement? You made you point, I made mine and we seem to agree on more than we disagree on. This is history and since none of us was alive 5000 years ago no one can be 100% correct.
[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 23 June 2004).]
[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 23 June 2004).]
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Neo*geo I think Obenga made his comment based on your description of those statues, when you were attempting to classify which facial features prompted you to call them Caucasian or Negro !
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Obenga - I have yet to give my physical definition of a 'black person' yet you're putting words into my mouth and assuming I apply the outdated Eurocentric definition. I think I pissed a few people off by saying that there were caucasions in Egypt since pre-dynastic times but most of them were non-white and indigenous to Africa. I have no doubt AE was an African civ but I don't agree that they were all black people.
Why can't we live and let die here? Why are people not satisfied until everyone is in agreement? You made you point, I made mine and we seem to agree on more than we disagree on. This is history and since none of us was alive 5000 years ago no one can be 100% correct.
Neo*Geo, Neo*Geo..., Since antiquity and up unto our present era, there has rarely, if ever, been a homogeneous nation anywhere on earth. The closest nations today that may be considered homogeneous would be Japan or perhaps Sweden, but even those nations have both ethnic and racial minorities. South Africa is a black nation-state, but there are a ton of white folks living there. Heck, they even ruled it at one time. Everybody that lived in Kemet, a black nation, weren't black, just as everybody that lived in Rome, a white nation, weren't white and Italian...Virtually all nations have from the time of the first nation-states, been heterogeneous...I hope you get this...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 23 June 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Neo*Geo, Neo*Geo..., Since antiquity and up unto our present era, there has rarely,if ever, been a homogeneous nation anywhere on earth. The closest nations today that may be considered homogeneous would be Japan or perhaps Sweden, but even those nations have both ethnic and racial minorities.
I agree and you sorta reiterated my point about Egypt being heterogenous. However, while a country like Sweden may have enough racial homogenity for us to conclude that Swedes are white, countries like the US and Canada are heterogenous enough for it to be wrong to say Americans and Canandians are white. Although we'd be completely correct in saying Sweden, Canada, and the US are Western European culturally. That's basically my point with AE. I think up until around the New Kingdom the majority of Egypt's population was in the south and black but for whatever reasons there was a population shift north and while the population in the north may not exactly fit the pre-dynastic Egyptian physical type, culturally they were Egyptian and therefore African. Please don't crucify me for having a slightly different opinion.
[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 23 June 2004).]
It's not just you, I'm generalizing. This kind of thinking is all over the board, Your words were there I said take no offence and u shouldn't. A lot of us are guilty of this kind of thinking. I am just saying there need be no discussion about who was in Africa and not black and what they did there. It does not happen on other continents regardless of who is there or not it only happens in africa. We are often too willing to look to others for Validation and confirmation of who we and what we have done. when this sort of behaviour is silly and something that is adopted by no other groups, except us.
There is nothing to quibble over, we do not need to measure anyones Nasal index or anything else. KMT was a BLACK AFRICAN CREATION, PERIOD, NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE OR IS ACCEPTABLE. Other groups on other continents were responsible for what happened on their continents no one questions this. Yet we are faced with this rubbish in this day an age. Outsiders do not know who is african and who is not, we do. Who thinks different??
It's this way for every other group except us....there is a reason for that
How about I tell a Scot or a Swedish person that the greeks were not white or European because they do not look as fair as an Irishman or a Scot and they have curly hair and don't sunburn as easy. Greeks are european because Europeans say greeks are European, period. Europeans define that, and the question certainly is not up for debate by any non-european it's a european issue that they handle INHOUSE, no non-european opinion about this is asked for or welcomed by Europeans and they would not validate such an opinion any way.
It's not just you, I'm generalizing. This kind of thinking is all over the board, Your words were there I said take no offence and u shouldn't. A lot of us are guilty of this kind of thinking. I am just saying there need be no discussion about who was in Africa and not black and what they did there. It does not happen on other continents regardless of who is there or not it only happens in africa. We are often too willing to look to others for Validation and confirmation of who we and what we have done. when this sort of behaviour is silly and something that is adopted by no other groups, except us.
There is nothing to quibble over, we do not need to measure anyones Nasal index or anything else. KMT was a BLACK AFRICAN CREATION, PERIOD, NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE OR IS ACCEPTABLE. Other groups on other continents were responsible for what happened on their continents no one questions this. Yet we are faced with this rubbish in this day an age. Outsiders do not know who is african and who is not, we do. Who thinks different??
It's this way for every other group except us....there is a reason for that
How about I tell a Scot or a Swedish person that the greeks were not white or European because they do not look as fair as an Irishman or a Scot and they have curly hair and don't sunburn as easy. Greeks are european because Europeans say greeks are European, period. Europeans define that, and the question certainly is not up for debate by any non-european it's a european issue that they handle INHOUSE, no non-european opinion about this is asked for or welcomed by Europeans and they would not validate such an opinion any way.
It's not just you, I'm generalizing. This kind of thinking is all over the board, Your words were there I said take no offence and u shouldn't. A lot of us are guilty of this kind of thinking. I am just saying there need be no discussion about who was in Africa and not black and what they did there. It does not happen on other continents regardless of who is there or not it only happens in africa. We are often too willing to look to others for Validation and confirmation of who we and what we have done. when this sort of behaviour is silly and something that is adopted by no other groups, except us.
There is nothing to quibble over, we do not need to measure anyones Nasal index or anything else. KMT was a BLACK AFRICAN CREATION, PERIOD, NOTHING ELSE MAKES SENSE OR IS ACCEPTABLE. Other groups on other continents were responsible for what happened on their continents no one questions this. Yet we are faced with this rubbish in this day an age. Outsiders do not know who is african and who is not, we do. Who thinks different??
It's this way for every other group except us....there is a reason for that
How about I tell a Scot or a Swedish person that the greeks were not white or European because they do not look as fair as an Irishman or a Scot and they have curly hair and don't sunburn as easy. Greeks are european because Europeans say greeks are European, period. Europeans define that, and the question certainly is not up for debate by any non-european it's a european issue that they handle INHOUSE, no non-european opinion about this is asked for or welcomed by Europeans and they would not validate such an opinion any way.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: How about I tell a Scot or a Swedish person that the greeks were not white or European because they do not look as fair as an Irishman or a Scot and they have curly hair and don't sunburn as easy. Greeks are european because Europeans say greeks are European, period.
Thanks for repeating what I've been saying. Greeks are Europeans, Egyptians are Africans. No one will disagree with that. The word European isn't synonymous with the racial term 'white' and the word African isn't synonymous with the racial term 'black'.
Europeans and Africans are much more concerned with nationalism than race. It's no surprise that most of the people sitting here debating this are black Americans.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: [B] Thanks for repeating what I've been saying. Greeks are Europeans, Egyptians are Africans. No one will disagree with that.
strawman of obenga's post.
quote:The word European isn't synonymous with the racial term 'white' and the word African isn't synonymous with the racial term 'black'.
off point: you stated: Egyptians do not have "Black features", which you subsequently evade addressing as you cannot prove it in the slightest. the trolling you offer as substitute for sound argument....is ignored.
quote:Europeans and Africans are much more concerned with nationalism than race.
hyperbole. irrelevant.
quote: It's no surprise that most of the people sitting here debating this are black Americans.
ad hominem.
let us know, if you ever decide to stop trolling and address the issue honestly.
I'm not trying to pull your card, really, but if u wanna argue the point it's fine with me. Lets start with this, right now u have black arguing with black about who was black....when was the last time u saw an Asian debating an asian about who is Asian and who isn't.....or a white debating a white about who is white....European means white...regardless of other races wandering around Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, dark age Spain or Finland.
They found some White Mummies in China,u think for a minute the Chinese allowed Europeans to start talking trash about why these white mummies were there and what they were responsible for in Chinese culture. There are still large groups of "white looking" groups in China. If White Mummies were in China then they were immigrants and learned whatever they did in China from Chinese people so whatever they contributed to Chinese culture is still a product of chinese Poeple and Culture. At this point the Chinese ended the discussion it was not up for debate and needed no validation from Europeans. The Chinese defined what they were doing there by themselves and are not interested in European definitions of there purpose there.
"Let's not ignore the fact that lower Egyptians since pre-dynastic times were for the most part, not black Africans"
Where did u get this rubbish from, Lower Egyptians by definition are Black and African. To be an Ancient KMTian means to be be Black and African, by OUR DEFINITIONS, WHICH FOR BLACKS IS THE ONLY VALID OPINION. NO BLACK AFRICANS TOLD U THAT LOWER EGYPTIANS WERE NON-BLACK. SO WHO DID TELL U THIS. Did KMTians write or leave pictures of this for u to confirm this idea. If u travel there from the levant raise kids and die there u are an Asiatic who lived and died in Africa, an immigrant. Moving from Asia to Africa does not turn Egypt into an Asian Nation. Moving into the area as a group does not make them Black African they are Asiatics living in Africa. Just like there are Africans living in America for hundreds of years now, they are still identifiable as Black and the descendents of Africans.
Is there some law of the Universe why this practice is reversed when non-africans move to Africa. I don't care where they came from, we Black Africans define who is African and who is not, no debate or input from non-blacks needed. It's like that for other groups so it's like that for us. When other groups like Euro's, Aussies, and Asians start throwing there identity up for outsiders to define for them then we should consider doing the same. Until such time only Blacks will define who is Black, WE ARE THE EXPERTS ABOUT WHO IS AFRICAN AND WHO IS NOT, debate ended until this is the case for all groups. There is no foundation for any other kind of thinking for Black people. Diop called Blacks who think otherwise Cowards....and that is the truth.
If u place your concept of Self in the hands of another group expect to hear very bad things about yourself. What other groups are doing this except Black people. Black people do not need a WHITE face with a PHD next to it's name to tell them who they are. I can't say this in any clearer terms all other groups DEFINE THEMSELVES BY THEMSELVES and accept no evidence scientific or otherwise about who they are. It is the sociological healthy action for all human groups to take, what is it about us that we are so willing to be defined by a group that is just recently starting to say we are not a cursed group or half animal savages.
We have the same rights as other groups, we should be exercising them to the fullest extent to our SOCIOLOIGICAL benifit as do all other groups.
No definitions of Black Africans is a valid one unless WE BLACK AFRICAN PEOPLE CHOOSE TO VALIDATE IT, BECAUSE WE ARE THE EXPERTS OF OUR OWN HISTORY ON THIS PLANET AND IN AFRICA NO ONE ELSE.
posted
I believe we had this discussion about Lower Egypt a while back. Honestly,I am not sure where the Lower Egyptians originated. I have heard people say they had an Intermediate Status according to Dr. Shomarka Keita. Keita's Instructor,Larry Angel, on the other hand considers them to to have affinities with the early agritcultural people of the Agean.
Could it be that these early people in the Delta were simply khoisanoid types that evovled to a Mediterannean clime? I would agree if you use America's standards most certainly many would be considered ''black''.
The debate is not wheather black Upper Egyptians founded AE civlization because they did,but who was living in the Delta when Aha united Upper and Lower Kmt? Was this a peaceful or violent merging.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Those were my words however I was obviously referring to the photos I posted. I clearly wasn't saying Egyptians in general don't have black African features.
You're not even worth debating if you can't keep your rebuttals honest...
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: [B]Those were my words
Well of course they are. We have been waiting patiently for you to support them with facts, if you have any. How long do you suggest we wait before we conclude that your argument is utterly without merit...in the slightest?
And if I may quote you again, the notion that you did not say them was apparently: "a figment of your imagination"
quote:however I was obviously referring to the photos I posted. I clearly wasn't saying Egyptians in general don't have black African features.
What is clear is that you are now backtracking, actually, taking us back to the question of what evidence you have to offer to back up your sensationalist trolling claims with regards to who does and who does not have "black features".
Of course,when asked politely for evidence....you deny ever making the claim, deflect the argument to denial of your own comments, and further evade answering the question which you yourself begged.
quote:you are not even worth debating
Frustrating isn't it? When we demand that you address the issue; Hold you to earlier statements; Avoid being baited by petty personal attacks.
Now what, Neo? Perhaps you should ignore me, and wait for a more vulnerable victim of your fallacious semantics. lol.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 23 June 2004).]
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 23 June 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by ausar: I believe we had this discussion about Lower Egypt a while back. Honestly,I am not sure where the Lower Egyptians originated. I have heard people say they had an Intermediate Status according to Dr. Shomarka Keita. Keita's Instructor,Larry Angel, on the other hand considers them to to have affinities with the early agritcultural people of the Agean.
Could it be that these early people in the Delta were simply khoisanoid types that evovled to a Mediterannean clime? I would agree if you use America's standards most certainly many would be considered ''black''.
The debate is not wheather black Upper Egyptians founded AE civlization because they did,but who was living in the Delta when Aha united Upper and Lower Kmt? Was this a peaceful or violent merging.
According to most Egyptologists, the so-called mediterranean type were definitely not indigeneous to Egypt. These people migrated from the far east to that region. It is believed the original people living there were 'Negro' before the flood! After that, the relatively small black population of this region either vanished somehow, or were absorbed into the arriving mediterranean population. So the story goes...but as expected most Egyptologist are reluctant to look further into this period before the flood. The delta had a mostly 'Negro' population before the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt. Anthropologists agree to that extent. However, it is believed that the trading and intermingling between the lower states and upper states created a mulatto population in the region between. There is no doubt that an armed conflict had occured before the unification. As I explained in another thread, it was after this the ruler of Upper Egypt unified the states. I have wandered off the subject a little bit, but the issue discussed here so far is that other races shouldn't be allowed define who is 'Black' or 'African', and whether AE was a black culture. Like Obenga puts it clearly; black Africans should decide that. This definition should be that, since AE was a black nation, then whether there were mediterranean types there or not shouldn't be relevant, because they weren't indigeneous to that region!
quote: This definition should be that, since AE was a black nation, then whether there were mediterranean types there or not shouldn't be relevant, because they weren't indigeneous to that region!
thank you. even if i didn't agree with you, and i do, i would still appreciate the clarity of your thinking.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: I believe we had this discussion about Lower Egypt a while back. Honestly,I am not sure where the Lower Egyptians originated. I have heard people say they had an Intermediate Status according to Dr. Shomarka Keita. Keita's Instructor,Larry Angel, on the other hand considers them to to have affinities with the early agritcultural people of the Agean.
Could it be that these early people in the Delta were simply khoisanoid types that evovled to a Mediterannean clime? I would agree if you use America's standards most certainly many would be considered ''black''.
The debate is not wheather black Upper Egyptians founded AE civlization because they did,but who was living in the Delta when Aha united Upper and Lower Kmt? Was this a peaceful or violent merging.
According to most Egyptologists, the so-called mediterranean type were definitely not indigenous to Egypt. These people migrated from the far east to that region. It is believed the original people living there were 'Negro' before the flood! After that, the relatively small black population of this region either vanished somehow, or were absorbed into the arriving mediterranean population. So the story goes...but as expected most Egyptologist are reluctant to look further into this period before the flood. The delta had a mostly 'Negro' population before the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt. Anthropologists agree to that extent. However, it is believed that the trading and intermingling between the lower states and upper states created a mulatto population in the region between. There is no doubt that an armed conflict had occured before the unification. As I explained in another thread, it was after this the ruler of Upper Egypt unified the states. I have wandered off the subject a little bit, but the issue discussed here so far is that other races shouldn't be allowed define who is 'Black' or 'African', and whether AE was a black culture. Like Obenga puts it clearly; black Africans should decide that. This definition should be that, since AE was a black nation, then whether there were mediterranean types there or not shouldn't be relevant, because they weren't indigenous to that region!
I apologize for the repetition! There appeared to be a technical problem with my computer.
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 23 June 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: European means white...regardless of other races wandering around Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, dark age Spain or Finland.
So according to your logic Tunisians are black because they're African and Iraqis are Mongoloid because they're Asian. And you say it's me who let's Europeans define who's what? I don't think a AE discussion board is the appropriate place to discuss racial issues. If you want more honest responses about how I define a black person my email is tutankamun81@yahoo.com
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: They found some White Mummies in China,u think for a minute the Chinese allowed Europeans to start talking trash about why these white mummies were there and what they were responsible for in Chinese culture. There are still large groups of "white looking" groups in China.
I don't see how this relates to Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: "Let's not ignore the fact that lower Egyptians since pre-dynastic times were for the most part, not black Africans"
Where did u get this rubbish from, Lower Egyptians by definition are Black and African. To be an Ancient KMTian means to be be Black and African, by OUR DEFINITIONS, WHICH FOR BLACKS IS THE ONLY VALID OPINION. NO BLACK AFRICANS TOLD U THAT LOWER EGYPTIANS WERE NON-BLACK. SO WHO DID TELL U THIS.
This is the kind of emotional response that turns me off to the Afrocentric debates. Everyone who has looked at craniological studies on Egypt knows that the coastal north African physical type was dominant with pre-dynastic lower Egyptians and the east African type was dominant with pre-dynastic upper Egyptians. I'm not out to prove Egyptians had blonde hair or any crap like that. I'm only pointing out that phenotypically, they were not homogeneous.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: Moving into the area as a group does not make them Black African they are Asiatics living in Africa. Just like there are Africans living in America for hundreds of years now, they are still identifiable as Black and the descendents of Africans.
Blacks in America are Americans. I am a black American and I have never met a person from Africa who considered me African. I have even been told I'm not really black because they say black Americans are mixed. After these experiences I figured race is such a dumb thing to identify with. I have more in common with an American of Chinese descent than I do with a person born and raised in Africa. 400 years is a long time. 5000 years is even longer and I'd be out of my mind to tell a person born in Egypt who's ancestors might have been coastal north African types that they are not Egyptian.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: European means white...regardless of other races wandering around Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, dark age Spain or Finland.
quote: So according to your logic Tunisians are black because they're African and Iraqis are Mongoloid because they're Asian.
Red herring. Doesn't answer the issue of European ethnicity being synonymous with caucasian/white.
quote:If you want more honest responses about how I define a black person my email is.....
[chuckle] Tacit admission of less than honest responses from you thus far.....finally, we agree on something.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Blacks in America are Americans. I am a black American and I have never met a person from Africa who considered me African. I have even been told I'm not really black because they say black Americans are mixed. After these experiences I figured race is such a dumb thing to identify with. I have more in common with an American of Chinese descent than I do with a person born and raised in Africa. 400 years is a long time. 5000 years is even longer and I'd be out of my mind to tell a person born in Egypt who's ancestors might have been coastal north African types that they are not Egyptian.
Again off the topic, but here goes..Neo*geo, if you are really a black person, it is very unlikely that an African will tell you that you aren't black. Africans don't even bring the subject up, unless you ask them precisely. If you asked an African for his opinion, and you looked like a Mulatto, he is going to tell you as such, because even though you appear black, you are considered as being from another culture! Just as you can tell a difference between the "cultural attitude" of an African and that of the Black American when you see one, in the same way an African will be able tell whether you were raised in Africa. If an African migrated to America at a very young age, it will probably be difficult for a Black American to notice that he came directly from Africa. The reason is that he would adopt the same cultural attitude as fluently as a Black American. Likewise, if you were raised in Africa, and completely adopted their cultural attitudes, it would probably be hard for an African to notice you! It is that simple. You have to understand race isn't just about the color, but also those unique cultures and traditions that are common to a particular race. So the African race, regardless of what color Africans come in, will bind them into one race!Moreover, Africans are aware that Black Americans live with other races in America, where they are "considered" a minority. So it is natural for Africans to say that among the black American populations, there will be many mixed people, besides the full blacks.
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 23 June 2004).]
The point u made about tunisians means u have missed mine:
"European means white...regardless of other races wandering around Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, dark age Spain or Finland."
What I mean't by that is it does not matter who was racially in Europe.....whites decide that issues for Europeans. no outside judgements are valid TO THEM other than WHITE ONES. Regardless of what races were actually loose in Europe. Do u see my point here. They are practicing self determination. We will also, it is every groups right to do this.
The point about "white looking groups" and "white Mummies in china" is the same. THE CHINESE WILL DECIDE WHO THEY WERE, WHAT THERE PURPOSE WAS THERE, AND WHAT ROLE THEY PLAYED IN CHINESE CULTURE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANY OTHER GROUP MAY THINK. Again we will practice the same level of self determination and validation as other groups exemplified here.
Neo u said, "This is the kind of emotional response that turns me off to the Afrocentric debates. Everyone who has looked at craniological studies on Egypt knows that the coastal north African physical type was dominant with pre-dynastic lower Egyptians and the east African type was dominant with pre-dynastic upper Egyptians. I'm not out to prove Egyptians had blonde hair or any crap like that. I'm only pointing out that phenotypically, they were not homogeneous."
Who defined what those crania represent racially....Black Africans?? Who decided what kind of Crania represents a Black African.......Europeans! sorry but this is not wise to place the definition of what u are 100% in the hands of a group that has for most of their history misunderstood or disliked us.
On the Black American point u made. Are u Black...identifiable as Black or are u native american after hundreds of years in the americas......African Americans are still identified as Black and will be as long as racial classifications are around.
Being Asiatic in Africa is the same thing. let Blacks decide who is Black, as all other groups decide for themselves who is a member of their group or not. No outsiders need offer input as they have no expertise in the area and can only use their own foreign standards any way. Of course it goes without saying that these foreign standards have meaning to THEM... NOT US!!!
People develop Culture and our ancestors hand it down to us to provide a positive image of their own group and promote our survival and growth. Putting that cultural/Historical legacy in the hands of outsiders who do not have any understanding of it, respect for it or dependancy on it is to commit cultural suicide.
Our sociological well being depends on who we allow to define who we are. I will not accept any definition of who is Black that is not validated by the judgement of Blacks. Thats how it is for all other groups and we must follow suit. I don't see how any one can have a problem with this.
I make no apologies for my views, any non-Black person reading this should take no offense as I am talking to my group about what is good for us. I am unconcerned at this point what non-blacks believe, they are taking care of their cultural historical legacy as they should. It should be logical for any group to respect the right of other groups to do the same.
posted
Wally, Wally, Wally, Wally, LMAO!!!!! Now you knew the type of discussions this thread would lead to. (smiling from ear to ear, I love it!)
Originally posted by Neo*geo I just hate how both white and black supremacists try to misrepresent ancient Egypt.
Please tell me dear brother, or sister, exactly where do the "Black Supremacists" hold their monthly clan meetings. And also enlighten me if you will, do they wear black sheets, as opposed to white sheets, so that they dont get confused with the typical "white supremacists", and help me out here, have they ever "hung" anyone for not being black enough?
If I sound facetious, you would be correct. As your line of thought is exactly the type of "white-washing" Eurocentric individuals would like to assign to Afrocentricism. While I view Afrocentricism as a way of defining Black History from a "Black Perspective", its people like yourself and others that would like to attach some type of negative stigma to this revolutionary practice, as if a group of enlightened Black authors and followers are somehow "plotting" to overthrow the white race, with this new found knowledge that was absent, and still is absent from our hundreds of Western history books.
You would be surprised to learn that there are literally millions of Black Youth, that still think Egypt is in the "Middle East" with no connection whatsoever to Africa. The struggle has just begun, and thank God, brothers like Wally are at the forfront of eliminating the ignorance that exists in our community. We have a responsibility to future generations to learn that our history didnt began on a ship to America. And we don't need to "hang" any white people to spread that knowledge.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
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