Most people who source English words (etymologists) very rarely go beyond Europe; when the research reaches the southern shores of the Mediterranean, it stops! But clearly, there are and should be many words of substance and some not so substantial, which had their origin, not in the 'child' states of Greece, or Rome, or anywhere else, but were derived from the language of the 'mother' of Civilization - Kemet:

Egypt/Egyptian

Catechism: 'the name Egypt comes from the Greek name for Egypt, Aigyptos.'
That's only partially true, the essential truth is omitted...

The Greeks corrupted an Ancient Egyptian name for Memphis - Ht-Ki-Pth (hay-gip-Toh), "The Temple of Ptoh's Essence," to Aigyptos. The Coptic word is Ekeptia, which ironically is what the word 'Coptic' itself is derived from. The pronunciation of the god Pth is To(h) in the Yoruba language, thusly, we have Ekepta, Ekipto.
Keep in mind that the Greeks had a convention of adding an 's' to Ancient Egyptian proper nouns:
Osiri > Osiris
Isi > Isis
Pth(Toh) > Tos

The origin of the words 'Egypt' and hence, 'Egyptian' are Kemetian, not Greek.

Ethiopia

Catechism: The name Ethiopia comes from the Greek Aithiops or 'burnt faces'.
That's only partially true as well. Actually, it's closing in on being a lie...

This I found purely through serendipity. There are Kemetian/Coptic words for Ethiopia. They are 'Ethosh' and 'Ethaush,' which means 'border, boundary, or frontier' which referred to the lands beyond Kemet's southern borders - the frontier. Borrowing this term from their patrons, the Greeks wrote it as Aithiops, and indeed used it to indicate, initially, all the lands beyond Kemet's southern boundary frontier. Later, it was also used as a euphemism for those peoples who were dark-skinned, both in Africa and in India. It is to be noted that they never used this term to identify the Kememu, for them they used the term 'melanochroes' or simply 'Black.' Out of respect, I imagine...

Sudan

Catechism: The name 'Sudan' comes from the Arabic which means 'Land of the Blacks' (Bilad as Sud).
That isn't quite right neither...

My opinion on this is:
The name is derived from the words 'nsu, nsuten, and suten' and would mean literally the 'nature of royalty which was inherited from the south/this southern region.'
In Arabic (here; Gulf Arabic), we have the following words for Black - Aswad, Sooda, and Suud; and not to be confused with the term Sudd or 'blockage.' The expression 'Bld s sWd' > 'as suud' could possibly have given birth to the term sWd (aswad). In Kemetian, this was a precise geographical location and which corresponds to the exact location as indicated by the Arabic 'Bilad as Suud'; the Sudan (both the country and the region.)
We must constantly keep in mind that the Kemetians are the teachers and not the students.
An excellent example is the "Arabic" name of Baraka, which means 'blessings.' This is simply the borrowing of a Kemetian word which combines Ba + Ra + Ka or the complete and total essence of a human, thus a blessing. Simple...

Africa

I'm not about to quote all the nonsense written about the name 'Africa,' I'll simply state these facts:
There are two key words in Kemetian that we need be concerned with here. They are 'Afri' which means 'steam; hot vapors, etc.' and 'ka(o)' which identifies the hill country or highlands above the Nile river valley. In Kemetian, 'Afrika' means literally the 'steaming hot highlands' above the relatively more cool land bordering the river. One can then make a logical deduction from that fact..or maybe not.

Thought

Everyone is familiar with this word and what it means. Do you think that it's etymology is to be found in Europe or...

In Kemetian, we have; Thoout - the patron god of Civilization and of intellectual pursuits.
Is there any need to elaborate?

Yahweh/Jah

Kemetian (142b) Yahao - Jah the Great; Gnostic. Iawo

Gaga

Gaga - crazy; foolish (ety. French(!))
Cackle -to laugh, esp. in a harsh or sharp manner
In Kemetian - Gaga - to cackle

Flatulance

Everyone has probably seen and remember the campfire scene in the movie "Blazing Saddles," it defines 'flatulance.' Well, guess what the Kemetian word for 'passing gas' is?.... yep,.. 'Gas.'

Meow

Since this is an (here comes a $1000 dollar word!) onomatopoeiatic word, or a word that is a vocal imitation of the sound the thing makes, it's likely that this word exists in many, many languages. But it is recorded as a Kemetian word 'miow.'

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
And in case there are those who doubt that the Kemetians were aware that they lived on a continent, remember that the Kememu sent an expedition around this "I don't know that Africa exists" continent. And it was surely a mapping expedition as well. I mean, the state wasn't financing some pleasure cruise...

---

quote:

---

"I am sure they were aware of vast lands, with different ethnicities. But I doubt they would have percieved this in terms of the current geo-political sense of term "continents".

---

I sure hope they didn't have our "geo-political" concept of continent.

Europe is a "continent", athough it is really the western portion of the continent of Asia.

Africa is divided by topography into North and Sub-saharan, as a thinly veiled euphemism for also dividing by race into 'Black Africa' and in another thinly vield euphemism, presumably Non-Black Africa.

The Middle East, Near East and Far East do not make proper Geographic reference with respect to the Eurasian mass, but rather references relative to Europe.

And then there is....The Third World. (no comment)

Finally, the Mercator Projection map (still adorning classrooms in Europe and even Africa), which distorts our view of the world to the effect that Europe is grossly inflated, with Greenland for example, appearing to be the same size as Africa when in fact Africa is 13 times as large.

I think Wally's point is that the argument that Kemet was not aware of greater Africa is a part of the false rationale for removing Kemet from Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercator_projection

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]"I am sure they were aware of vast lands, with different ethnicities. But I doubt they would have percieved this in terms of the current geo-political sense of term "continents".

---

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 27 June 2004).][/QUOTE]

The voyage of Necho II sending Phonecian sailors around the Cape of the Good Hope in Africa is speclative. Where in Kemetian records is there such a voyage besides by Herodotus.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
I think that maybe you guys are complicating something which is very simple. The Kememu were very much aware that they lived on a particularly huge and distinct landmass, it's irrelevant as to what they called it (but I promise you I'll find out and let you know). They knew that if they launced a fleet of ships southward and continued down and around and headed north on the other side of this landmass, that they would eventually arrive back at the point of their departure (because they also knew that the earth was a sphere). It wasn't about "geo-politics," but rather more like a voyage of discovery. Now does that sound familiar...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
What about Harkhuf during the 6th dyansty who sent expeditions to the land of Yam. Lots of people say the land of Yam was located around modern Dongola in Sudan.

The voyage of Necho II sending Phonecian sailors around the Cape of the Good Hope in Africa is speclative. Where in Kemetian records is there such a voyage besides by Herodotus.

---

The first circumnavigation
of Africa

Herodotus, The Histories 4.42
Libya is washed on all sides by the sea except where it joins Asia, as was first demonstrated, so far as our knowledge goes, by the Egyptian king Necho, who, after calling off the construction of the canal between the Nile and the Arabian gulf, sent out a fleet manned by a Phoenician crew with orders to sail west about and return to Egypt and the Mediterranean by way of the Straits of Gibraltar. The Phoenicians sailed from the Arabian gulf into the southern ocean, and every autumn put in at some convenient spot on the Libyan coast, sowed a patch of ground, and waited for next year's harvest. Then, having got in their grain, they put to sea again, and after two full years rounded the Pillars of Heracles in the course of the third, and returned to Egypt. These men made a statement which I do not myself believe, though others may, to the effect that as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya, they had the sun on their right - to northward of them. This is how Libya was first discovered by sea.
[tr. Aubrey de Selincourt] Related subject
Hanno

Comment
The Egyptian pharaoh Necho, or -more properly- Wehimbre Necho, was the ruler of the kingdom along the Nile from 610 to 595 BCE. When he started his reign, there were serious military problems on Egypt's northeastern border. The Babylonians had taken the Assyrian capital Nineveh (click here for the story) and were ready to punish Egypt for its support to the Assyrian cause (cf. the biblical book 2 Kings 23.29). From a Babylonian chronicle, we know that Necho was campaigning in Syria from 609 until 605, when the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar decisively defeated the Egyptians at Carchemish (in Syria). The Babylonian proceeded to subjugate the towns along the Mediterranean coast. It is not entirely clear where and when the border between Egypt and Babylonia was drawn: 2 Kings 24.7 implies that Egypt retired to the Sinai desert and left the Palestine coast in Babylonian hands; Herodotus 2.159 suggests that Gaza remained an Egyptian stronghold.
However this may be, it is obvious that Necho was in big troubles for some time, and he seems to have considered the possibility to attack southern Babylonia by sea. He ordered a canal to be constructed between the Nile and the Red Sea, but discovered that he was giving free access to his enemies too. Consequently, the canal remained uncompleted until the Persians had taken over Egypt in the last quarter of the sixth century.

The circumnavigation of Africa must somehow have been related to Necho's defense projects. He asked for Phoenician assistance because the Phoenicians (who lived in modern Lebanon) were excellent sailors and had several colonies in the West, such as Carthage and the islet of Mogador opposite modern Essaouira, which has been identified with ancient Arambys. The Phoenicians must have been happy to help the Egyptians, because they shared the Babylonian enemy. The following is a possible reconstruction of their voyage.

They must have started their expedition in July, and they must have reached the Horn of Africa after an uneventful trip, relying on the northern wind. The Red Sea (which Herodotus calls 'Arabian Gulf') was well known to their Egyptian pilots, because the Egyptians traded incense with the Arabs of modern Yemen.

The Egyptian sources inform us also about the legendary country named Pwanit or Punt. Usually, this is identified with the north coast of modern Somalia, but this is unlikely, since the Egyptians report that they obtained antimony in Punt. This was not produced in the Horn of Africa, but in modern Mozambique. It may be noticed that Pwani is the Swahili word indicating 'seaside'; a similar word may have existed 2,600 years ago. In later times, the route to 'Rhapta' (somewhere in the neighborhood of Dar-es-Salaam) was well known to Egyptian and Roman sailors. Whatever the precise location of Punt, the first part of the expedition of the Phoenicians covered known territories.

After they had passed Africa's most eastern shores, the northeast monsoon -which started in October- sped up their journey, and in March they must have reached the equator. The Agulhas Current must have brought them through the Mozambique Channel and along the coast of modern South Africa. Sailing on their westerly course, they must have observed that they had the sun on their right. (Something that Herodotus, who was unaware of the earth's spherical shape, was unable to believe.) Something else must have fascinated these men, too: they must have seen whales.

When they reached Cape Agulhas, they left the current that had helped them to the south. At the same time, they encountered the contrary South East trade winds. And they must have been surprised to discover that here, on the southern hemisphere, the winter was already approaching. However, they must happily have noticed that they had started to go north. The plane behind Saint Helena Bay, 150 kilometers north of modern Cape town, offered a fine opportunity to land. They must have sowed their wheat in June, started to repair their ships, and harvested in November.

The Benguela Current and the now favorable South East trade winds brought the Phoenician sailors back to the hot equatorial regions, and they will have experienced its effects in a most unpleasant way, when they sailed along the Namibian coast, which is a waterless desert. It took several weeks to reach a more fertile coast. In March, a new and equally unpleasant surprise awaited them: they had been traveling on a northerly course, but now, the coast curved to the west again. They may have benefited from the westward Guinea Current, but not for long, because it changes its direction during the spring. For weeks, they were struggling against the wind and the current, only to reach -in July- the African west coast, where they encountered the contrary Canary Current and the North Eastern trade winds. But they must have been relieved to find themselves rowing in a northerly direction again.

Somehow they managed to beat against the wind and the current, and in November they must have landed somewhere on the coast of modern Mauritania, maybe at Bay of Arguin, where their Carthaginian compatriots were to build the trading post of Kerne in the not too distant future. The voyagers sowed their wheat, repaired their ships, and waited for the next harvest. Maybe they made contact with the Berber population; in that case, they may have learned that they could obtain gold from the Bambouk region if they returned to the mouth of the Senegal - something that the Carthaginian sailor Hanno probably did.

In May, they brought their ships to the sea, and started to beat their way up to along the Moroccan coast, where they discovered that they had returned to the world they knew: the town on Mogador island was occupied by Phoenicians. Having told the incredible story of their trip to the southern hemisphere, and no doubt with new equipment, they continued their voyage; soon they reached Phoenician towns like Lixus, modern Cadiz and Malaga, and Carthage. They must have reached Egypt at the end of the summer. Their expedition had lasted three full years.

This story, told by Herodotus, was generally questioned after the famous geographer Ptolemy had said that it was impossible to circumnavigate Africa. Another voyage was necessary to vindicate the Phoenician claims. This trip was made in 1488, when Bartolomeus Diaz reached the Cape of Good Hope.

Literature
This short text is discussed by A.B. Lloyd in his Herodotus. Book II (1975, 1988 Leiden). On the location of Pwanit/Punt, see W.F.G. Lacroix, Africa in Antiquity. A linguistic and toponymic analysis of Ptolemy's map of Africa (1998 Saarbrücken), appendix III.

I doubt ancient Egyptians ever would have desired to leave the Nile,for if a person died outside of the territory of Egypt then his soul would never exist in the Field of Reeds. We clearly see this demonstrated in the Tales of Sinuhe and Sabni during the 6th dyansty.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Still the feat was done by Phonecian sailors and not by Egyptians. Actually,there are African records to voyages in the ''New World'' however they are not ancient Egyptians but people from Mali around the 14th century. You have heard of Abu Bakari II who was recorded by a Syrian Muslim historian named Al Omari. Abu Bakari II's brother Mansa Musa told the historian about the voyage of his brother.

I doubt ancient Egyptians ever would have desired to leave the Nile,for if a person died outside of the territory of Egypt then his soul would never exist in the Field of Reeds. We clearly see this demonstrated in the Tales of Sinuhe and Sabni during the 6th dyansty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
The first voyage to Punt was during the time of Sahure. Yes, the people left the Nile but I would honestly doubt many would take up permanent residence in a land that was quite unusual for them. This was the point I was trying to make.

---

I said that the Kememu launched an expedition to circumvent their 'continent.' I never said that they colonized any place...

Here's what our 'old friend' Breasted has to say:

"Her (Hatshepsut) ancestors had often sent expeditions thither (to Punt)..."
A History of Egypt, p274

"The route was down the Nile and through a canal leading from the eastern Delta through Wadi Tumilat, and connecing the Nile with the Red Sea. This canal, as the reader will recall (see p.188), was already in regular use(My emphasis) in the Middle Kingdom."
P276

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
The first voyage to Punt was during the time of Sahure. Yes, the people left the Nile but I would honestly doubt many would take up permanent residence in a land that was quite unusual for them. This was the point I was trying to make.

---

quote:

---

Just want to note that if we are to put some weight on Greek observers and historians during AE period, then we cannot overlook the fact that Herodotus mentions the presence of Egyptian troops in Cholchis, and there is some scriptual evidence of the presence of Egyptian troops in a certain part of Greece

---

I believe that the Colchis claim can be substantiated but I don't believe there is any evidence for Egyptian colonization of Greece or any where in the Agean. Herodotus was right and wrong about many times so I sometimes take his words with a grain of salt.

quote:

---

This seems like a sort of occupation tactic my the Egyptians. If all is true, then certainly they've found their way to the "New World".

---

Show me evidence!

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Show me evidence!

---

I stand corrected on the "troops in Greece" part. I read out it of context from a few lines from the website nubianet.org:

This has suggested to the excavator, Dr. Manfred Bietak of the University of Vienna, the strong presence there of Minoan (Cretan) royalty. This palace appears to date to the period soon after the Egyptian king Ahmose drove the Hyksos into Palestine about 1550 BC. It is thought possibly to have belonged to a Minoan princess sent to marry the Egyptian king. Obviously she and her servants from Crete would have been very light-skinned. On the other hand, there were also certainly black-skinned people in the Delta at the same time. Nubian pottery has been found in one area of Tell ed-Daba'a, which strongly suggests that Nubian troops were also living there in large numbers. Black people were probably also living on Crete and mainland Greece at the same time, for at Pylos in Greece black-skinned warriors wearing contemporary Cretan and Mycenaean Greek armor are depicted in the palace frescoes, suggesting that African troops were being used not only by the Egyptian king but also by his European counterparts across the sea.

Let me point out that image of black people has been found in areas like Cyprus dating to around the Middle Kingdom period. Definatley I see a pressence of Egypt in the North Mediterranean but not by a colonizing force.

"Greeks are found to have
a substantial HLA gene flow from sub-Saharan Ethiopian
and Black people . This is why Greeks are
Mediterranean outliers in all kind of analyses [19-21,28].
This African genetic and cultural input was documented
by Herodotus who states that the daughters of
Danaus (who were black) came from Egypt in great
numbers to settle in Greece. Also, ancient Greeks believed
that their religion and culture came from Egypt [33]. An
explanation of the Egypt-to-Greece migration may be
that a densely populated Sahara (before 5000 BC) may
have contained an admixture of Negroid and Caucasoid
populations, and some of the Negroid populations may
have migrated by chance or unknown causes towards
present day Greece .
This could have occurred when hyperarid Saharan
condition become established and large-scale migration
occurred in all directions out from the desert. In this
case, the most ancient Greek Pelasgian substratum would
come from a Negroid stock. A more likely explanation
is that at an undetermined time during Egyptian
pharaonic times a Black dynasty with their followers
were expelled and went towards Greece where they
settled ."

Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J,
Gomez-Casado E, Silvera C, Varela P, Martinez-Laso
J: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan
origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens 57:118, 2001

Clayton J, Lonjou C: Allele and Haplotype frequencies
for HLA loci in various ethnic groups.

So obviously Herodotus wasn't "making up" anything.

By the way, Yurco is not anti-Afrocentric. He admits the ancient Egyptians were Africans but emphazies the diversity of the ancient and modern Egyptians.

As much as I respect Van Sertima,he is not a Egyptologist nor has obtained a degree in this particular field. Has Van Sertima published anything recently? Last book I read dated to 1998?

Ausur I have never read any "caucasoid lineage" of the Fulani, since no such "lineage" exists. It has only been observed that they posess the "caucosoid" physical features, which only supports my argument that proto-saharans possess a variety of physical traits. There has never to my knowledge been in implication that the Fulani has Indo-European origins. And regardless of the website being anti-greek, the sources come from genetic studies conducted by certified geneticist, NOT the webmaster himself!

Frank Yurco has argued against Afrocentrist on several occassions, so forgive me if I dont share the same assessment of him as you do. I have not read one account by any Afrocentrist author that has tried to "minimize" European contributions to AE.

Bottomline is these studies support what Herodotus has written eons ago. And any tactic you seek to discredit these findings are purely arbitrary and unsupported.

quote:

---

Ausur I have never read any "caucasoid lineage" of the Fulani, since no such "lineage" exists. It has only been observed that they posess the "caucosoid" physical features,

---

Correct and which moreover are arguably "Ethiopoid" features that European peoples inherit from their East African ancestors.

One has to be careful about blindly buying into the European race classification phenotype game, which some call the "Aryan model", and has been expanded by some to the point of sheer absurdity.

The paper clearly states the Fulani has a caucasian admixture, the chart on page six of the paper show absolutely NO genetic admixture to Northern Europeans!! Don't try to change the focus and lets not play the word games. "Caucasian" is not limited to Northern Europeans-hence white people.

Exactly. And the point of the study is to show the proto-saharan admixture of the Greeks not to label who is "caucasoid" "negroid" and all those other irrelevant labels.

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
Supercar, since the release of these findings I wonder what your girl Lefkowitz has to say now in the Black Athena debate, surely she must have her head buried somewhere in the sand. Her and Ausur's boy Frank Yurco are very anti-afrocentric. And I'm sure my boy Van Sertima is having a "field day" with these findings. LOL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
I'm not saying that colonialization of Greece and the founding of Athens by an Egyptian is not possible. The book entitled Black Athena definatley tries to argue for such colonization during the 12th dyansty under SenworsetI. I am not fully convinced of such event since I have yet to find any archaeological evidence. The Agean specialist,Eric Cline, believes scant evidence might exist of a trading colony around the Agean.

Let me point out that image of black people has been found in areas like Cyprus dating to around the Middle Kingdom period. Definatley I see a pressence of Egypt in the North Mediterranean but not by a colonizing force.

---

By mentioning Egyptian presence in Greece, my aim was really not to focus on their colonial ambitions, but to show their "expeditions" to such far off places, where in some cases, they have left some of their fellow Egyptians . I did this in light of what you said about the Egyptians being wary of wandering off to far away places, much less to seek permanent residence in such places. This would have fascilitated them to better understand the world around them, and determine lands to which they could extend their grip.

Her position is one of modern Eurocentric disrespect for Africa.....in turn requiring her to tear down the ancient Greeks re: their opinion of Africa, in order to keep the Greeks "superior" to Africans in her own mind.

The Greeks are apparently Gods, until they start babbling on about Black skinned wooly haired Egyptians...at which point they are clearly damned fools.

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
And in the on-going Black Athena debate, Frank Yurco has clearly been anti-afrocentrist in his arguments. While he does acknowledge Black presence in AE, which not one single scholar denies, even the most Eurocentric of them, he still tries to "minimize" their siginificance to only a few dynasties, and not being responsible for the old kingdom, which findings within the A-group Nubians has done.

---

You have a point there. There is a limit to the extent to which these Western scholars will attribute the origin of AE civilization to black Africans, and the important role they played in its survival.

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
You have a point there. There is a limit to the extent to which these Western scholars will attribute the origin of AE civilization to black Africans, and the important role they played in its survival.

---

That is why I stated
earlier in the previous post, that yes, had we good depictions of the
First-Second Dynasty rulers, who originated from Nekhen, way south in
Upper Egypt, they should be dark brown in complexion as the people in
those areas were in all subsequent periods down to the present day.

So again, if there were such individuals in the north, they well might
be descendants of these royals from Nekhen. Such may be the case with
Djoser, the first king of whom we have portrait quality statues and
reliefs, and yes, known to be a son of Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of
Dynasty 2, he does appear like a southern Egyptian in type.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
The Old Kingdom begins with the third dyansty which Yurco admits are of southern Upper Egyptian origin. Here is his exact quote on the issue:

That is why I stated
earlier in the previous post, that yes, had we good depictions of the
First-Second Dynasty rulers, who originated from Nekhen, way south in
Upper Egypt, they should be dark brown in complexion as the people in
those areas were in all subsequent periods down to the present day.

So again, if there were such individuals in the north, they well might
be descendants of these royals from Nekhen. Such may be the case with
Djoser, the first king of whom we have portrait quality statues and
reliefs, and yes, known to be a son of Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of
Dynasty 2, he does appear like a southern Egyptian in type.

Most sincerely,

Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

---

Give a reason why the first and second dynasties aren't included in the Old Kingdom. Is it because, Egyptologists don't have much information on those time frames, or is it just that they weren't significant enough?

No disrespect to anybody but I noticed everybody else who constanly posts the racial discussions never post anything outside or start a subject. Talking about the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians is fine with me but there are other avenues of Egyptian culture and history.

quote:

---

Originally posted by homeylu:
Originally posted by Ausur
[b]To whomever it applies. Like I said in the past I don't mind discussing or debating the ethnicity of the AE but I just wanted to point out there is more to AE then just that.
No Kidding??

Ausur like I said, most of the topics you post are not interactive. You post a lot of irrefutable facts, therefore after a few "oh that's interesting" and a few "How, whats,and Why?" the thread dies. People come to forums to "interact" not just to learn about Egyptology. The best forums are ones that get people to respond and interact. I mean sometimes you act as if you're the teacher and we're your inquisitive students. [/B]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
Wally, I must add that you certainly appear to know much about AE words and meanings attached to them. I bet you've done so much research on this...what are your sources, is it the internet, books, or both?

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 30 June 2004).]

---