Might I remind people that Snwoden is not an Egyptologist but a Classcist who is know deceased. He was emeritus at Howard Unversity where many of his students often complained about his views on racial matters. Still I think he did a fairly decent job showing Greco-Roman soceity was more multi-cultural than people suspect. He just contridicts himself too many times on the issue of the Egyptians. He even reffered to them as ''white'' in Before the Color Prejustice yet in Science Magazine article ''The Last Black Classcist'' he refers to them as mixed. Makes no sense to me.

Personally,I don't care much for Snwoden's views. S.O.Y. Keita in the classcist magazine Minerva wrote a responce to Snwoden debunking many of his views and claims.

By the way, Homeylu I read your comment, and it is right on the mark!

Here is a responce to Snowden from S.O.Y. Keita :

Biologically, the ancient 'Egyptians' gain other relationships by intermarriage, but retain their southern affinities. Culturally, the *core* remains Saharo-Sudanic-Nilotic (African) to the end." S.O.Y Keita, "Black Athena: "Race," Bernal and Snowden," _Arethusa_, Fall 1993.

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Originally posted by ausar:

Here is a responce to Snowden from S.O.Y. Keita :

Biologically, the ancient 'Egyptians' gain other relationships by intermarriage, but retain their southern affinities. Culturally, the *core* remains Saharo-Sudanic-Nilotic (African) to the end." S.O.Y Keita, "Black Athena: "Race," Bernal and Snowden," _Arethusa_, Fall 1993.

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I haven't apparently read S.O.Y Keita's refutation, but It appears that he is also refuting Martin Bernal, who kept revising his work. Too bad, Keita's rebuttal came after Snowden's death. It would have been interesting to see how he responds.

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Originally posted by ausar:
It's Martin Bernal. Snowden did respond to Keita but I don't have the reference to this.

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"Black Athena"'s public reception has been extraordinarily varied. Afrocentrists have enthusiastically touted it as formal vindication of their beliefs, by a scholar at an Ivy league institution. Classicists and linguists ignored it for several years, but are now mounting a counter-offensive [ "Black Athena revisited" (Mary Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, eds), "Not out of Africa" (Mary Lefkowitz) ].

If indeed Keita disagreed with Martin Bernal in some aspect of AE, what would that have been?

Martin Bernal, isn't he simply loved by handful of Classicists or wanna be classicists/Egyptologist...

This tells the reader that whatever the merit or demerit of Bernal's work, it will not be properly assessed by a critic who has so much of a general ideological axe to grind, that he is willing to wander waayy off point in order to indulge it. Next.

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Originally posted by rasol:
I couldn't even make it thru it. He lost me when he complained about Bernal supporting the Communist side in VietNam.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 02 July 2004).]

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Exactly my sentiment. I too couldn't go too far on that lecture. But I read enough to see that this person was no fan of Martin Bernal's book "Black Athena" and idea that AE has had influenced on Greek Civilization, which has come to be known as Western Civilization. It seem as though anyone who comes up with the explanation to signify AE contributions and its roots in Africa, are single out by these classicists or Egyptologists (a handful of them) as being an apologist for "Africanists" (trying to be politically correct here).

They are formerly committed to defending a status quo, that is so badly dated, so utterly discredited, that it is hardly even a status quo anymore.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Classisist seem to me to play a 'dead hand'.

They are formerly committed to defending a status quo, that is so badly dated, so utterly discredited, that it is hardly even a status quo anymore.

Methinks they should change the name from classisist to "stubborn f#cks".

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Rasol, you are one funny person!

Methinks they should change the name from classisist to "stubborn f#cks".

I think C.A. Diop was the first to bring them to their knees and they've been "grasping at straws" ever since.

Now you see why they never wanted "coloreds" to learn how to read. Pardon the pun please.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
And since we're posting links of critics, please read what Clyde A Winters(another favorite author of mine), had to say about Leftkowitz: http://geocities.com/olmec982000/courses4.htm

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I had the leisure to read the link, and the author put it quite eloquently. You know, the ridiculousness of people like Lefkowitz in making unsubstantiated charges, gets to the point when one wants to call them names...as adviced by rasol.

I wonder if Lefkowitz has had the opportunity to read Clyde Winter's and others' response to her. Surely, she would like to address the questions forwarded to her.

"Not out of Africa"- of course nothing came out of Africa but "slaves" yet everyone has come "into" Africa to "civilize" them, how dare you scholars suggest otherwise.
(Yall know what time it is, holler at your girl!)

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Of course not as she has rejected every opportunity to debate an Afrocentric author she could. She just wants to win the popular opinion aka "sell books" as you and I both know that anyone that anyone that has procured any of her books have already formulated an opinion before opening the first page. They are just please that someone "finally" responded on "their behalf" and would go through great measures to validate her scholarship based on the title alone.

"Not out of Africa"- of course nothing came out of Africa but "slaves" yet everyone has come "into" Africa to "civilize" them, how dare you scholars suggest otherwise.
(Yall know what time it is, holler at your girl!)

[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 02 July 2004).]

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That is true. But if she thinks for a moment that her behavior will stop the mommentum of black people who want to set the truth straight and want blacks to be given credit where due, then she has something coming. But I think people like Lefkowitz by trying to diminish AE contributions to world civilization, are genuinely concerned about the black movement to set the truth straight. She is the type of person who wants to keep "the being white priviledge". Why do you think that even black American inventors are down played? It is the same reason that AE history is being twisted. Lefkowitz is like a disease...the medicine needed to adress the likes of her, is for black scholars, and scientists to become even more provacative in their approach to bringing about the truth and thereby eclipse them (the likes of Lefkowitz). I think publishing more factual material that supports the black roots of AE, will certainly do the trick!

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Originally posted by ausar:

I agree with your assesment but to beat them you must do it in a scholary way. You must make sure are your arguments are polished to ultimately knock down their arguments. I notice there is a lack of African archaeologist wheater in Africa or through the disapora. I have only seen a handful of African Egyptologist. Why is this?

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Originally posted by ausar:
You have plenty of wealthy millionarie Disaporian Africans and many millionarie Africans. Create your own reserch insitutions like Diop did with his Unversity in Senegal did. You can't expect academia who is against you to support you.

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This is precisely what I said in my last comment. Rich individuals haven't been contributing enough to the institutions necessary to carry out Egyptology or any other ancient African studies for that matter. It takes a few individuals with a drive, like C.A. Diop to get these things going. Unfortunately, not all these rich Africans are exactly looking out for their community...it is like every man for himself. But you are right, these millionaires definitely have the potential to start research institutions which can deal with subjects such as Egyptology.

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Originally posted by ausar:
The people who fund people like Leftowitz and Dinesh Dsouza are right-wing groups like Olrin.

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I am not surprised about that. These right-wing individuals, and their apologists (supremacists) have only one goal, and that is to protect their existing social status. It is the average apologists who are fools, because they are only depriving themselves of reality and aren't gaining anything by accepting propoganda spat out by self-proclaimed classicists like Lefkowitz and like-minded Egyptologists. I also blame the so-called Liberals/leftists who continue to allow old AE theories and other distorted history to go unabated, and not bother with revised textbooks to reflect new findings. They even contribute to the propaganda themselves, by publishing material that supports "Aryan model" of all aspects of history. But the heat is on...and I know black scholars will continue to be relentless until their objective is met. But there is still more work to be done, and the handful of Egypotogists that we have are doing their part.

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I also blame the so-called Liberals/leftists who continue to allow old AE theories and other distorted history to go unabated, and not bother with revised textbooks to reflect new findings. They even contribute to the propaganda themselves, by publishing material that supports "Aryan model" of all aspects of history. But the heat is on...and I know black scholars will continue to be relentless until their objective is met. But there is still more work to be done, and the handful of Egypotogists that we have are doing their part.

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Arch liberal Arthur Schlesinger published a book where he cites an Egyptologist Mriam Licheim making fraudlent claims about AE soceity. Schlesinger is a liberal to the core yet is very disturbed by a ''black'' Egypt. You can bet that many of these libeals feel the same way about the situlation. A more conservative man like Richard Poe spent most of his own money to have the book Black Spark White Fire.

You should check out a book I read by Jacob Carruthers called Intellectual Warfare. Interesting book that adresses academia.

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Originally posted by ausar:

Arch liberal Arthur Schlesinger published a book where he cites an Egyptologist Mriam Licheim making fraudlent claims about AE soceity. Schlesinger is a liberal to the core yet is very disturbed by a ''black'' Egypt. You can bet that many of these libeals feel the same way about the situlation. A more conservative man like Richard Poe spent most of his own money to have the book Black Spark White Fire.

You should check out a book I read by Jacob Carruthers called Intellectual Warfare. Interesting book that adresses academia.

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Personally, It makes me sick to my stomache to read some of the garbage these people write in their books. Most of the time, their statements are uncorroborated, and some of their comments are just outright ridiculous. Nevertheless, one cannot ignore their writings or statements. These people have to be dealt with in a real way, so it is important to pick up the points that they touch. This is the only thing that motivates me to read these unimformative books. So I will definitely look into some of the books you mentioned. I hope they are available at the nearest Barnes & Noble!

Speaking of Richard Poe’s book "Black spark, white fire", although I haven’t had chance to read the whole book, I was able to predict the theme of the book from the excerpts I read. I found it interesting that he had worked with the likes of Shomarka Keita, Martin Bernal, and Frank Snowden. For a second I thought to myself, here goes another person parroting previous authors and scholars. But then he mentions that despite interaction with those scholars, he was able to draw his own conclusions from research involving various sources and was at times in disagreement with some of the scholars. For example, he mentioned that Snowden wasn’t thrilled about the idea of focusing on the black origins of AE civilization. He adds that on other hand, he disagreed with Bernal on many minor details in his book "Black Athena" , and felt that it was his duty to stress the "blackness of Egyptians", something that Bernal had only mentioned in a passing. Another interesting point he makes is the fact that his being a journalist gives him kind of an upper hand, in that, he is not restricted in his dissemination of information as in the case of scholars who risk career breaking criticisms, if they crossed the line of certain codes of conduct within the scholarly circles. Notwithstanding that Poe makes it clear that he is conservative in many of his views, that he views both AE and Ancient Greece with the same amount of enthusiasm , that his wife is a proud Greek-American, and that he is an avid fan of western civilization, he still gets criticized for encouraging Egyptocentrism and to some extent Afrocentrism. I enjoyed his Julius Caesar quote on the Germans of ancient Europe, and description of Celts by Greeks. He rightly anticipated that his critics would approach his book from the point of view that he is not an Egyptologist or a certified Scholar. It is worth noting that from Poe’s book you get sense of how the world was a really different place, with people having a totally different mindset than modern people. His description of how the Greeks and Romans saw the rest of Europe as a large area of wild forests inhabiting uncivilized people., and how on the other hand, Egyptians were seen as one of the most civilized people they’ve ever met, lends a hand in creating this impression. In view of this, the Greeks and Romans found it more casual and safe to travel to Ancient Egypt, than to dare go north on the European continent.

Here is a link to excerpts from Richard Poe’s "Black Spark, White Fire" :
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0761521631/ref=sib_int_redir/104-0997334 -5339939?v=look-inside&s=books

Here is a quote from one of his critics:

Alexander H. Joffe.
"Like many writers, Poe is preoccupied with the issue of whether the Egyptians were "black" which is apparently equivalent here to "African." He ascribes a similar obsession not only to obvious racists in and out of academia, but modern Egyptology in particular. Perhaps because he is white he does not fall over the edge into melanin-related triumphalism but appears to argue on several sides of the issue that "black" and "white" are nineteenth-century Western constructs and that according to those constructs Egyptians are Africans. While wholly predictable in the context in which it was written and for the intended audience, all this is, again, a kind of sad and ironic inversion of Victorian evolutionism."

Here is a link to the full page : http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp4/poe-joffe.html

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Originally posted by supercar:
This is precisely what I said in my last comment. Rich individuals haven't been contributing enough to the institutions necessary to carry out Egyptology or any other ancient African studies for that matter. It takes a few individuals with a drive, like C.A. Diop to get these things going. Unfortunately, not all these rich Africans are exactly looking out for their community...it is like every man for himself. But you are right, these millionaires definitely have the potential to start research institutions which can deal with subjects such as Egyptology.
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 02 July 2004).]

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Thought Writes:

I am not even certain that anyone has approached many wealthy Blacks on setting up these sorts of endowments. Russell Simmons would seem to be a good starting point.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Arch liberal Arthur Schlesinger published a book where he cites an Egyptologist Mriam Licheim making fraudlent claims about AE soceity. Schlesinger is a liberal to the core yet is very disturbed by a ''black'' Egypt. You can bet that many of these libeals feel the same way about the situlation.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

We have to remember that many liberals in the USA are Jewish. Part of the reason Jews were oppressed in Europe was because they were seen as being part "African" by the Nazi's. Many Mediterranean whites have worked hard to be accepted as "white" by mainstream, Anglo-Saxon (German) society. Just look at Diekenes (smile). With all of the new genetic and archeaological evidence coming out, they may be a bit uncomfortable with their Black East African origins.

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Thought Adds:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I am not even certain that anyone has approached many wealthy Blacks on setting up these sorts of endowments. Russell Simmons would seem to be a good starting point.

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These wealthy Black individuals should know something about their communities, i.e., the needs of the Black communities. Nobody should have to approach these wealthy individuals, for them to realize that there is a need for research institutions that focus on Black studies, so that young generations can get access to knowledge that will be beneficial to them. I heard that there are a few Black celebrities who donate money to Black colleges. Surely through the interaction with these college staffs, the wealthy Black contributors would be informed about the need to finance such activities like conducting archeological expeditions and undertaking excavations wherever necessary. Only through such research institutions, will there be more Black candidates for bio-anthropology, archeology and Egyptology.

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Originally posted by supercar:
These wealthy Black individuals should know something about their communities, i.e., the needs of the Black communities.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by supercar:
Only through such research institutions, will there be more Black candidates for bio-anthropology, archeology and Egyptology.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

As suprising as it may seem, most Black people wealthy or otherwise see little value in history or ancient culture. This is probably true in most communities. It is up to those of us who are aware to break the importance down to them in terms that they can understand.

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Originally posted by supercar:
Then you would have to blame the black colleges that they contribute to. Since, the wealthy black contributors interact with them when they are donating money, it is upto college board members to break it down to the rich guys.

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Thought Writes:

Okay what's Russel's phone number? Let's get the ball rolling.

Also remember contributions can be made doing research that doesn't necessarily involve "excavations" which can be quite costly.

Multiple disciplines like those used by Cheikh Anta Diop should suffice enough. I see talents right in this forum. Let me assign the tasks as I see them:

Wally, S. Mohammad- very intelligent in linguistic studies, and hieroglyphic deciphering..

Thought2, Ausur- very intelligent in DNA genetic studies, and vast knowledge in interpreting them

Supercar, Rasol- excellent at research and cross-referencing a wide variety of African related topics.

Obenga, et al- excellent sources for Egyptology and Nubianology in general.

Ayazid- knows the value of "photos speak a thousand words" , can be an excellent source for photo references.

Keino, Sunnystorm2004- shows a love and compassion for Egyptology and always eager to learn more.

Homey: Will rule and supervise all of you in your work with an iron fist.

If I missed anyone its either because I haven't read enough of your posts, or I don't think you have the passion to get what we want accomplished-nothing personal.

Pack your bags, we're heading to the desert!

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Thought-

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I think a good person to go throw would be Dr. Benjamin Chavis-Muhammed at HSAN. Here is a link to their site:
http://www.hsan.org/content/main.aspx?pageid=66

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I've taught a (free) intro to Egyptian Religions class and a (free) intro to Sumerian Religions class annually for the past 8 years, and I preface the class with what was taught to me 5 years before that.

The following points are always treated as the fact and the common knowledge that they are, and never (until I found Egyptsearch.com) been so political, and so in need of reiteration.

- 4 groups independantly created the roots of written language, namely China, Egypt, Sumer, and Central America. (The route by which writing came to Greece was convoluted, but can be traced to Egypt. Like the other hundreds of languages and alphabets known, the finished Greek alphabet is an entity unto itself, however.)

- Imhotep is the actual "father of medicine", rather than Aescalapeius.

- Many (but not all) western roots of mathematics and science are rooted in Egypt (though astronomy and the 60 minute hour is generally attributed to Sumer.)

- The people who lived on the Nile during Pharonic times made tribal distinctions between Upper & Lower Egypt, Nubia, Libyans, etc. but each group contributed to the distinctiveness that was Pharonic Egypt.
(And slaves could be from any tribe, though slavery wasn't the same kind of thing as it became in the early America's. It was economically and/or politically based, not race based. A different topic.)

- The group we now identify as "Jews" are seen as a nomadic group coming from the periphery of post-Sumer, not Egypt, as is even glaringly illustrated by their own "sacred writing".

- Contemporary Egyptian recreationalist religious groups have more in common in "feel" with Uruba than any other contemporary spirituality.

- Oh, and Egypt is on the continent of Africa.

No issue.

And so I'm saddened by this fu-fu-ra. If one finds an author that isn't worth his/her salt, isn't the best thing to do to simply ignore them? (We've been rolling our eyes whenever people use Budge as an academic source for years ...)

Look at what happened with the movie Farenheit 9/11 ... the negative press about it gave it the power and fame that it has! (There are other documentaries, but nobody here can name them. Now you know why.)
So too is this reaction simply giving authors like Havelock power and fame - and riches, in fact - since everyone will now buy their books ... when they could have simply been disregarded, and allowed to fade into the obsurity they deserved.

In AE, a most powerful tool was the "name". The more a name was spoken or written, the more power the name developed. To destroy that which a name represented, one would remove all spoken and written references to the name ... and allow it to fade into obsurity "like the shifting sands upon the desert".

Too bad.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
I'm confused, who is Cassia responding to?

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I feel you, I am confused too. But let me make a wild guess here...
Cassia appears to have an issue with individuals on this thread expressing their disapproval of the works of certain classics authors like Lefkowitz or Snowden, and their like minded right-wing and liberal supporters. She thinks that people make too much of a political issue of AE. According to her, griping about these authors, can only add to the popularity of their works...just as the constant media bashing had contributed to the popularity of Fahrenheit 911!

What Cassia fails to see, is that it goes deeper than that. One would have to be living on another planet, not to see by now that AE has always been politicized. The disapproval of the works of the likes of Lefkowitz, isn't just about what they write, but it is more about what they are backing. Lefkowitz and the like, are advocating that people simply leave the current standard curricula that deals with AE or Greek civilization unchallenged. People who are adamant about challenging these standard national curricula, want to do so, because generation after generation is involuntarily fed with this stuff, that only leads to distorted views among the racial groups of the society. Like Cheikh Anta Diop stated:

" Nevertheless, in current textbooks the question is suppressed: in most cases it is simply and flatly asserted that the Egyptians were white and the honest layman is left with the impression that any such assertion must necessarily have a prior basis of solid research. But there is no such basis, as this chapter has shown. And so generation after generation has been misled. Many authorities skate around the difficulty today by speaking of red-skinned and black-skinned whites without their sense of common logic being in the least upset. 'The Greeks call Africa "Libya", a misnomer au initio since Africa contains many other peoples besides the so-called Libyans, who belong among the whites of the northern or Mediterranean periphery and hence are many steps removed from the brown (or red) skinned whites (Egyptians).”

The above quote sums it up! That is the real issue, it is not simply about what some author writes. If classics authors want to challenge scholars who want to bring about change in the standard curricula, then it becomes necessary to fight back. Students in high school or lower grades, who have to take history that will include AE, Greek civilizations and so forth, in order to fulfill their grades usually don’t have a choice when it comes to the content of their textbooks. As these textbooks are rarely revised to reflect the latest scientific findings, students continue to accept old and in some cases debunked theories. The result is that you get white students feeling falsely that they are part of the superior and civilizing group, and people of color, particularly blacks, are the lesser beings in need of being civilized. It becomes a somewhat divisive tool. Of course this is not to imply that all white folks have this mentality, e.g. you have the likes of Richard Poe, but it is nevertheless an issue. Let’s not pretend that there is no political basis for this. Why do you think it is easy for various Americans to accept false explanations about the need to sustain freedom here in the U.S. by going to far off places like Vietnam or Iraq to change their “undemocratic” ways! It is all about the “civilizing” process. So, AE isn’t just history, it has been politicized. Hence, our arguments here about certain AE authors becomes political in nature. Your comparison of the disapproval of some AE book authors and that of “Fahrenheit 911” is invalid, because here like you (Cassia) stressed, people don’t have to watch the documentary movie if they don’t want to. But most of us, at some point in our younger days, was taught about AE , Greek or Roman civilizations in school. So parents and people who want to see some changes, while they don’t have to read the books of authors like Lefkowitz, have to fight back when such authors make public statements that is trying to challenge the changes others are trying to get accomplished. I have to admit that I haven’t exactly read everything Lefkowitz has published, much less order her book and enrich her in the process. I have however, read enough excerpts to get the general idea of her thoughts. Sure, we can all ignore certain authors we don’t agree with, and allow their books to disappear in history, but we cannot ignore the basic issue at hand.
This is a longer comment than what I had intended, but it needed to be said

It is not enough that such falsifications are no longer commonly repeated...if only because doing so will immediately subject the teacher to disproof and dis-crediting by students who know better.

What is unacceptable is that the lies are not actively and aggressively corrected!

Cassia: Do you teach your students that the proper name for "Egypt" is Kemet (?), that they referred themselves as Kememu? Do you teach them what this means? ? ? Do you indulge, even in passing, the ludicrous 'black soil' alternative "explanation"?

Do you teach them that the Kemetians considered their ancestral homeland to be the African interior, in what is now Sudan/Ethiopia/Somalia?

And that the above, has been documented directly by the Kemetians themselves(?), making idle speculation about their "mysterious" origins both arrogant and obfuscating?

Do you teach that the above neither requires nor can be contradicted by European Egyptologists and their endless pseudoscientific racist speculations of the: caucasoid, Hamitic, Nordic, Mediteranian, Semitic, Mesopotamian, Neptunian, Arab, brown but not black, black but not "negroid" origins...of a people who told us, up front, and for all time....exactly who and what they were?

If you answer is anything other than "yes", then you have also answered the question of why the political war over Kemet continues.

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So parents and people who want to see some changes, while they don’t have to read the books of authors like Lefkowitz, have to fight back when such authors make public statements that is trying to challenge the changes others are trying to get accomplished.

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Lefkowitz' ultimately further exposes the fallacy of classisism, with its cognitively dissonant regard for the Greeks- held in highest esteem, until they pass credit to where credit is due - to Africa, at which point the Greeks are disregarded with patronizing contempt. In that sense, her contribution is to be welcomed. If her work is the best defense that classisists' can mount, then......

If we are going to talk about getting the ball going, then it is time to get the ball going.