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Author Topic: The Kemetian Matriarchy
Wally
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It is sometimes amusing to read comments regarding Kemetian royalty as sometimes being of non-Kemetian origin. There is constant speculation, for example, that Nefertiti may have been of Mitannian descent! There is something qualitatively missing from this type of argument; the knowledge that Ancient Kemet was a matriarchy wherein descent to the throne is through the female line , and this Kemetian system was formal and legitimist from the beginning to the end of Pharaonic history. It was part of Kemetian law. That does not mean absolutely that a Kemetian queen could not have foreign ancestry, but it is extremely unlikely. One example of this concept can be gotten from the universally recognized biblical story of "Moses in the bulrushes" where he is found by the Pharaoh's daughter , which is the only way he could become a "prince of Egypt" by being the child of the female royal. The Pharaoh could have dozens of children by foreign women, but they certainly wouldn't be in line for the throne.

Nsu, Nsuten, Suten
The basis of the Kemetian line of descent and legitimacy was for the female line to be descended from the South (the Sudan). This is expressed in the very meaning of these words and in the title of Pharaoh -- Nsu Biti -- that the matriarchy and legitimacy were derived from the "Khentu hon Nefer" or "the founders of the excellent order"-- Sudanese Africans.
This is illustrated, for example, that when the alien Hyksos invaded and occupied the Delta region, Kemetian royalty retreated to the heartland to regroup and to launch a counter-attack to expel these foreigners, a process which, incidentally, took several centuries. The concept was clear, Kemetian royal legitimacy originated in the South and therefore could only be re-instated from the South. (This ideology makes laughable the designation of the 25th dynasty as the "Kushite dynasty" which was simply a re-enactment of the process of the "Hyksos" era - the restoration of Kemetian royalty and rule.)

Some Kemetian Historical anomalies:
Hetshepsit (f) then Hetshepsut (m)
The reign of Queen/King Hetshepsit/Hetshepsut is in reality the first occurrence of the establishment of a Matriarchate; a society in which absolute political authority was held by a woman, and hence, women! Why, because this was a usurpation of the division of the Kemetian -or any African - society, wherein the woman was the conveyor of political power and the man was the one who wielded it. By being both the conveyor of political power and also wielding it, Hetshepsut's power was complete -- a Matriarchate.

Colonizers being Colonized

Kemetian history also illustrates another phenomenon: Foreign conquerors and colonialists, whether Hyksos, Greeks, and to a lesser extent, the Romans, adopting the customs, as well as the language of the very people whom they have colonized! I am unaware of this happening at any other time and place in history...

Note: the term Sudan is not restricted solely to the present country of Sudan, but to the area to the south; southeast; and southwest of Kemet

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 10 July 2004).]


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
It is sometimes amusing to read comments regarding Kemetian royalty as sometimes being of non-Kemetian origin. There is constant speculation, for example, that Nefertiti may have been of Mitannian descent! There is something qualitatively missing from this type of argument; the knowledge that [b] Ancient Kemet was a matriarchy wherein descent to the throne is through the female line , and this Kemetian system was formal and legitimist from the beginning to the end of Pharaonic history. It was part of Kemetian law. That does not mean absolutely that a Kemetian queen could not have foreign ancestry, but it is extremely unlikely. One example of this concept can be gotten from the universally recognized biblical story of "Moses in the bulrushes" where he is found by the Pharaoh's daughter , which is the only way he could become a "prince of Egypt" by being the child of the female royal. The Pharaoh could have dozens of children by foreign women, but they certainly wouldn't be in line for the throne.

Nsu, Nsuten, Suten
The basis of the Kemetian line of descent and legitimacy was for the female line to be descended from the South (the Sudan). This is expressed in the very meaning of these words and in the title of Pharaoh -- Nsu Biti -- that the matriarchy and legitimacy were derived from the "Khentu hon Nefer" or "the founders of the excellent order"-- Sudanese Africans.
This is illustrated, for example, that when the alien Hyksos invaded and occupied the Delta region, Kemetian royalty retreated to the heartland to regroup and to launch a counter-attack to expel these foreigners, a process which, incidentally, took several centuries. The concept was clear, Kemetian royal legitimacy originated in the South and therefore could only be re-instated from the South. (This ideology makes laughable the designation of the 25th dynasty as the "Kushite dynasty" which was simply a re-enactment of the process of the "Hyksos" era - the restoration of Kemetian royalty and rule.)

Some Kemetian Historical anomalies:
Hetshepsit (f) then Hetshepsut (m)
The reign of Queen/King Hetshepsit/Hetshepsut is in reality the first occurrence of the establishment of a Matriarchate; a society in which absolute political authority was held by a woman, and hence, women! Why, because this was a usurpation of the division of the Kemetian -or any African - society, wherein the woman was the conveyor of political power and the man was the one who wielded it. By being both the conveyor of political power and also wielding it, Hetshepsut's power was complete -- a Matriarchate.

Colonizers being Colonized

Kemetian history also illustrates another phenomenon: Foreign conquerors and colonialists, whether Hyksos, Greeks, and to a lesser extent, the Romans, adopting the customs, as well as the language of the very people whom they have colonized! I am unaware of this happening at any other time and place in history...

Note: the term Sudan is not restricted solely to the present country of Sudan, but to the area to the south; southeast; and southwest of Kemet

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 10 July 2004).][/B]


I always laughed at the claim that the 25th dynasty was the "nubian or black" dynasty because it never made sense to me. There is hardly a difference in the phenotype for starters. As you stated Kemetians knew their strength, source and orgins were south and often retrieted there in time of defeat or when the kingdome was sacked. Honestly I wonder how can so called educated persons can view the information concerning AE's orgins and totally say that they have no idea where they came from. Or even worse claim that the orgins were from outside of Africa. To me this is deliberate deception!

Its interesting how the royalty line was passed throgh the female. This is a common practice in Jews as well. What do you think the connection is if any?

[This message has been edited by Keino (edited 10 July 2004).]


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rasol
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The matriachal system of Kemet is often contrasted with Asiatic patriarchy, to the effect that this either:

a) played a role in extending Kemetian civilization for thousands of years, or

b) insured its eventual downfall thru a process that may be likened to present day Sudans "arabization", wherein the Dinka are transformed into Arab via the paternal parent.

Or perhaps neither? What do you think?


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supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:

Colonizers being Colonized

Kemetian history also illustrates another phenomenon: Foreign conquerors and colonialists, whether Hyksos, Greeks, and to a lesser extent, the Romans, adopting the customs, as well as the language of the very people whom they have colonized! I am unaware of this happening at any other time and place in history...

Note: the term Sudan is not restricted solely to the present country of Sudan, but to the area to the south; southeast; and southwest of Kemet



This should be testament to those who insinuate the importation of Egyptian culture from some outside people. The Ancient Egyptian culture was so admired, that the "colonizers" couldn't help but adopt a culture that helped bring about their civilization. When have colonizers ever adopted cultures they considered less of than their own? Therefore, it was more so that the Egyptians did the influencing, rather than be influenced by foreigners.

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 10 July 2004).]


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Keino
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quote:
Originally posted by supercar:

This should be testament to those who insinuate the importation of Egyptian culture from some outside people. The Ancient Egyptian culture was so admired, that the "colonizers" couldn't help but adopt a culture that helped bring about their civilization. When have colonizers ever adopted cultures they considered less of than their own? Therefore, it was more so that the Egyptians did the influencing, rather than be influenced by foreigners.

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 10 July 2004).]


Very true, very true! Can you see Americans invading and colonizing Iraq and adopting their customs, technology and way of life. This would only be so if Iraqis had a "superior" culture or technology. Good point!!


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sunstorm2004
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quote:

Colonizers being Colonized

Kemetian history also illustrates another phenomenon: Foreign conquerors and colonialists, whether Hyksos, Greeks, and to a lesser extent, the Romans, adopting the customs, as well as the language of the very people whom they have colonized! I am unaware of this happening at any other time and place in history...

Interesting point, Wally. I think there are a couple of examples of conquerors adopting the religion of the colonized (e.g. Islamized Mongols), but never adopting the culture wholesale... Yet in the case of the Kemetans, this happened over & over...

Quite a powerful culture...

[This message has been edited by sunstorm2004 (edited 10 July 2004).]


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supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by Keino:
Very true, very true! Can you see Americans invading and colonizing Iraq and adopting their customs, technology and way of life. This would only be so if Iraqis had a "superior" culture or technology. Good point!!

Remember, we are talking about dynastic Egypt. When I said Egyptians were doing the influencing, I was trying to point out that they did not import their culture. Infact, they influenced other cultures, particularly the European civilizations (Greek & Roman), that would eventually come to conquer Egypt.
Yes Ancient Egypt was a very influential culture and well organized, but it must not be forgotten that one of the key reasons to the "conquerors" adoption of Egyptian administrative system stemmed from the fact that Egypt was a weakening "empire". This means that the then victors were inheriting something that used to be so powerful. A sign of a weakening empire is when the rulers of that empire begin to build a more “diplomatic” relationship with it’s enemies rather than immediate aggression. This can be seen from the Ptolemaic era, when Cleopatra started that kind of relationship with the Romans. Likewise the invaders (notably the Germanic tribes) of Roman territories during the decline of the empire, often left the Roman administrative systems and social lifestyles more or less intact. Of course, there were cases with the locals under these "Barbaric" tribes, threatened to go back to the dark ages. So in Iraq’s case, the Americans are unlikely to adopt any of their systems, not only because of cultural difference, but also due to the fact that Iraq hadn’t been a powerful empire, as was the case of Ancient Egypt. You will have noticed that after the decline of the Roman empire, the conquests that followed in Egypt, resulted in the near total destruction of Egyptian way of life, with the invading Arabs eventually Arabizing areas of Egypt.


[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 11 July 2004).]


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rasol
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quote:
Its interesting how the royalty line was passed throgh the female. This is a common practice in Jews as well. What do you think the connection is if any?

Here's another question for all of you,
what is the relationship between the Jews and the Hyksos. (theories abound)

For those who are unfamiliar with the stage.

The Hebrews migrated to Kemet between 1800BC and 1600BC at about the same time the Hyksos (sometimes called the shepard kings) conquered the country. How can one immigrate into a nation that is being conquered unless......

Also, everyone has seen the famous (some say nefarious) Hollywood film, The 10 Commandments. Many say that this film has done a great deal of harm in terms of understanding Kemetic history.

For instance: the Jews are portrayed as slaves and slavery is essentially on the American plantation Model under Ramses (19th dynasty), which may have had little to do with the labor and forced labor practised in Kemet.

No mention is made of the fact that Akenaten (previous 18th dynasty) attempted to convert Egypt to monotheism (the God Ra) and Moses studied with the Kemetic priesthood. Of course the famous movie gives us the idea that Moses "invented" monothesism.
Comments?


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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Here's another question for all of you,
what is the relationship between the Jews and the Hyksos. (theories abound)

For those who are unfamiliar with the stage.

The Hebrews migrated to Kemet between 1800BC and 1600BC at about the same time the Hyksos (sometimes called the shepard kings) conquered the country. How can one immigrate into a nation that is being conquered unless......

Also, everyone has seen the famous (some say nefarious) Hollywood film, The 10 Commandments. Many say that this film has done a great deal of harm in terms of understanding Kemetic history.

For instance: the Jews are portrayed as slaves and slavery is essentially on the American plantation Model under Ramses (19th dynasty), which may have had little to do with the labor and forced labor practised in Kemet.

No mention is made of the fact that Akenaten (previous 18th dynasty) attempted to convert Egypt to monotheism (the God Ra) and Moses studied with the Kemetic priesthood. Of course the famous movie gives us the idea that Moses "invented" monothesism.
Comments?


And Kemetians, like most Africans, didn't french kiss neither. Sadly however, these Hollywood type distortions are powerful propaganda weapons, used to warp the minds of more than a few...


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Wally
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Here is a more detailed demonstration of the Kemetian ideology of their descent and the origin of the Kemetian Nobility and of the Pharaohs:

(Note: much of the reference is from "our old friend" EW Budge, so keep in mind that if you decide to look up these terms for yourself that Budge used the old method of inserting an 'e' between Kemetian consonants when the vowel wasn't written. So if you look for the word "Nsu"; you look for "Nesu")

Conventional spelling My spelling - The word's meaning and (my thoughts)

Nsw Nsu - the South; Upper Kemet
Nsw Nsu - King of Upper Kemet; King in general
Nswty Nsuty - Kings of Upper Kemet
Nsw Bty Nsu Biti - King of All Kemet Biti - King of the North
Nswtn Mut Nsuten Mut - King's mother
Nswtn Msw Nsuten Mesu - King's children
Nswtn Hmt Nsuten Hime - King's wife, Queen
Nswtn Hmt Wr Nsuten Hime Wer - King's Great Wife; First Wife (Who should be, according to Matriarchal law, the daughter of the Queen-Mother)
Nswtn S_ Nsuten Sa - King's son, Prince (Who must also be a grandson of the Queen-Mother)
Nswtn St Nsuten Sat - King's daughter, Princess (Who must also be a granddaughter of the Queen-Mother)
Nswty Nsuty - Reign, Sovereignty

Suten - (It is highly probable that this "parent" Kemetian word was the etymological base of the "child" Arabic words "Aswad, Sooda, and Sud" as well as the "child" English word "Sudan.")

Swtn Suten - King (points to the origin of Kemetian nobility, it literally means "they who come from the South.")
Swtnyt Sutenit - Sovereignty (literally: "the dominion of those from the South," ie, Kemet)

Osiris - Man, god, or both?

There had been some doubt raised on a previous topic about whether Osiris had once been an actual person; "where is the evidence that Osiris was a real person?"
The answer: right there in the Kemetian 'Book of the Dead'; again provided to us by our "beloved" EWB:

Suten Bat Asar Suten Biti Asar - "Osiris, King of the Two Egypts"

A Hieroglyphic Vocabulary to the Book of the Dead - EWB - page 336

"The Book of the Dead was to Egyptian society what the Bible is to Western civilization."
ibid ...

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 11 July 2004).]


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supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Here's another question for all of you,
what is the relationship between the Jews and the Hyksos. (theories abound)

For those who are unfamiliar with the stage.

The Hebrews migrated to Kemet between 1800BC and 1600BC at about the same time the Hyksos (sometimes called the shepard kings) conquered the country. How can one immigrate into a nation that is being conquered unless......

Also, everyone has seen the famous (some say nefarious) Hollywood film, The 10 Commandments. Many say that this film has done a great deal of harm in terms of understanding Kemetic history.

For instance: the Jews are portrayed as slaves and slavery is essentially on the American plantation Model under Ramses (19th dynasty), which may have had little to do with the labor and forced labor practised in Kemet.

No mention is made of the fact that Akenaten (previous 18th dynasty) attempted to convert Egypt to monotheism (the God Ra) and Moses studied with the Kemetic priesthood. Of course the famous movie gives us the idea that Moses "invented" monothesism.
Comments?


Given the location of where the Hyksos came from, i.e. Canaan or Syria, there is no reason to doubt their Hebrew connection. The Hebrews and Hyksos were racially akin. These people were a mix of Asiatic people, and were caravan-travellers who ended up in Egypt. It is believed that the Egyptians described these people as "Apiru", a name which might have something to do with their traveling habits. Some scholars have related that word to "Hebrew". The Hyksos, who were then expelled or enslaved by Egyptians, may well be the ancestors of a small portion of "Isrealites".

It is generally a good idea not to take at heart or use Hollywood as a good source for knowledge. We've seen Egyptians sometimes depicted even paler than the whites ( recent Mummy movie), and others like "The 10 commandments" does no better in this regard. The Jews certainly don't want acknowledge the notion of monotheism being the invention of someone else they don't consider their prophet, and at same time who belonged to the same race of people who expelled their "ancestors". This would be to imply that their messenger "Moses" was not God's prophet, but he was influenced by or following an Egyptian Pharaoh's (Akhaneten) concept of divine worship. Remember that while Egypt has been whitened in these movies, it is nevertheless still in Africa. Emphasizing Akhaneten's promotion of monotheism, would trace it back to its African roots. It is part of the downplaying tactic used in many aspects of AE. After all, monotheism is now a common partice around the globe!


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supercar
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quote:
Posted by wally:
Suten Bat Asar Suten Biti Asar - "Osiris, King of the Two Egypts"

Props to these linguists, whether or not their translations are always correct! To decode all these hieroglyphic scripts would be painstaking, and time consuming. Just imagine the number of related words from various languages they have to research.

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 11 July 2004).]


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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by supercar:
Given the location of where the Hyksos came from, i.e. Canaan or Syria, there is no reason to doubt their Hebrew connection. The Hebrews and Hyksos were racially akin. These people were a mix of Asiatic people, and were caravan-travellers who ended up in Egypt. It is believed that the Egyptians described these people as "Apiru", a name which might have something to do with their traveling habits. Some scholars have related that word to "Hebrew". The Hyksos, who were then expelled or enslaved by Egyptians, may well be the ancestors of a small portion of "Isrealites".

It is generally a good idea not to take at heart or use Hollywood as a good source for knowledge. We've seen Egyptians sometimes depicted even paler than the whites ( recent Mummy movie), and others like "The 10 commandments" does no better in this regard. The Jews certainly don't want acknowledge the notion of monotheism being the invention of someone else they don't consider their prophet, and at same time who belonged to the same race of people who expelled their "ancestors". This would be to imply that their messenger "Moses" was not God's prophet, but he was influenced by or following an Egyptian Pharaoh's (Akhaneten) concept of divine worship. Remember that while Egypt has been whitened in these movies, it is nevertheless still in Africa. Emphasizing Akhaneten's promotion of monotheism, would trace it back to its African roots. It is part of the downplaying tactic used in many aspects of AE. After all, monotheism is now a common partice around the globe!



It also changes the picture to a less, shall we say, one sided view of the Kemetic/Semitic conflict.

Here's a debate on the Moses/Akhenaton issue, with some of the usual players at war with each other (Bernal vs. Jan Assmann).

Note, haven't read the book's sighted, but among other things....the debate is over whether Moses was actually an Egyptian to begin with and not a Hebrew.
http://www.dnafoundation.com/members/akh/simms/nsmomy.htm

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 11 July 2004).]


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ausar
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One thing to note in AE family is the word for father is taken to men just a male ancestor. A grandfather or uncle can sometimes refered to as father. Although the AE royals did intermingle with cousins,it's well know that the term ''sister'' or brother when reffering to wife was a general term that did not mean incestous connections. Please note that most regular Egyptians were monogamous and never married within the family.


The Hykos could have been a ban of Indo-European and Semetic people that combined much like the Sea People in latter periods. I am of the belief in general it was not simply one group but many different tribes of people.

Manifred Bietak has indentified some with the Asiatic types with mushtoom type hair cuts. We have depictions of these people starting around the Middle Kingdom going into the Second Intermediate Period.



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supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
One thing to note in AE family is the word for father is taken to men just a male ancestor. A grandfather or uncle can sometimes refered to as father.

Here is another African connection. In the Gambia and Senegal, people also refer to male ancestors (uncle) as "father", as well as aunts being called "mother". Here, some people also call their cousines "brother" or "sister", whether it is from father's side or mother's.


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quote:
Originally posted by supercar:
Here is another African connection. In the Gambia and Senegal, people also refer to male ancestors (uncle) as "father", as well as aunts being called "mother". Here, some people also call their cousines "brother" or "sister", whether it is from father's side or mother's.

Its interesting because the Bahamas still very African and its is common, but not exclusive for elders in families to be called mother and father no matter if they are aunts, uncle, grandmothers, or grandfather. Every one called my great grandmother Mother and her husband daddy. My grandmother was refered to as sister by all her siblings and everyone that knew her, but mommy by all the other family members. Sometimes it amazes me as to how African the Caribbean still is even after all these years.


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supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by Keino:
Its interesting because the Bahamas still very African and its is common, but not exclusive for elders in families to be called mother and father no matter if they are aunts, uncle, grandmothers, or grandfather. Every one called my great grandmother Mother and her husband daddy. My grandmother was refered to as sister by all her siblings and everyone that knew her, but mommy by all the other family members. Sometimes it amazes me as to how African the Caribbean still is even after all these years.

Let me put it this way, " you can take Africans out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of Africans." Likewise, you can take Ancient Egyptians out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of the Ancient Egyptians, or modern Egyptians for that matter.


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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by Keino:
you can take Ancient Egyptians out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of the Ancient Egyptians, or modern Egyptians for that matter.

amen.

Speaking of which, anyone care to comment on the debate as to whether the relgious origin of this word is Kemetian, or in fact, Hebrew.

Some say it is just a coincidence that the word has religious conotation in both cultures.


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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Keino:
you can take Ancient Egyptians out of Africa, but you can't take Africa out of the Ancient Egyptians, or modern Egyptians for that matter.

amen.
Speaking of which, anyone care to comment on the debate as to whether the religious origin of this word is Kemetian, or in fact, Hebrew.
Some say it is just a coincidence that the word has religious connotation in both cultures.
[/QUOTE]

The word "Amen" (Amon, Amun) is Kemetian for 'concealed, hidden, etc.' It also means the same, and is used in the same manner in the Yoruba language and religion today. (I think that it implies philosophically that the nature of something is beyond our comprehension, but a Yoruba speaker, especially one who practices the traditional Yoruba religion, would be able to give you the definitive meaning of this word.

Remember...the Hebrews "went to school" in Kemet for over 300 years, so there is no coincidence that these pupils learned something from their teachers...


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King_Scorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
The word "Amen" (Amon, Amun) is Kemetian for 'concealed, hidden, etc.' It also means the same, and is used in the same manner in the Yoruba language and religion today. (I think that it implies philosophically that the nature of something is beyond our comprehension, but a Yoruba speaker, especially one who practices the traditional Yoruba religion, would be able to give you the definitive meaning of this word.

Remember...the Hebrews "went to school" in Kemet for over 300 years, so there is no coincidence that these pupils learned something from their teachers...


Were the Hebrews black? I don't mean to put it so bluntly, but I've always wanted to know more about them.


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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Were the Hebrews black? I don't mean to put it so bluntly, but I've always wanted to know more about them.

The Hyksos were Asians who crossed into Egypt from the Levant. If they are related to or ancestral to the people who came to be known as Hebrews then, no.


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