Neo*geo writes:
"its debatable whether or not those traditions originated in Nubia. We know too little about ancient Nubia to reach a conclusion one way or the other."

If there is a debate about origins of the Pharaoh tradition in Kemet or Nubia, then it can only mean that the Qustul incense burner, the pottery and early tombs displaying burial customs not much different from later tombs in Kemet, found in the lower Nubian region, appears to have no significance to one of the debating sides.

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there is a debate about origins of the Pharaoh tradition in Kemet or Nubia, then it can only mean that the Qustul incense burner, the pottery and early tombs displaying burial customs not much different from later tombs in Kemet, found in the lower Nubian region, appears to have no significance to one of the debating sides

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Originally posted by rasol:
....or, since it drives Nile Valley Civilisation further into the African interior, the tactic may be simply to downplay the significance of it.

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With all these concrete evidence, I find it interesting that anybody would question the origins of the Pharaoh tradition in the lower Nubian territory, which no doubt immediately leads to the Upper Egyptians. The bottom line is that, before unification Upper Egyptians shared the same culture with with Lower Nubians, and there was much contact between these folks. Like someone pointed out earlier, the Upper Egyptians weren't even aware of the term Nubia. It was known as Ta-Seti. Knowing ancient Nubia too well or not, has no bearing on the aformentioned concrete evidence: the tombs in the Qustul cemetary of the A-Group Nubians immediately lead to the first great royal monuments of Egypt's early Pharaohs, in a progression. The tombs, as physical fact, only tell one story, which can't be twisted to fit another theory. This story is that Pharaoh traditions have their origins in Qustul, Nubia. For those who reject this conclusion from concrete evidence, it will certainly be welcoming to see concrete evidence that suggests otherwise!

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Originally posted by supercar:
With all these concrete evidence, I find it interesting that anybody would question the origins of the Pharaoh tradition in the lower Nubian territory, which no doubt immediately leads to the Upper Egyptians. The bottom line is that, before unification Upper Egyptians shared the same culture with with Lower Nubians, and there was much contact between these folks. Like someone pointed out earlier, the Upper Egyptians weren't even aware of the term Nubia. It was known as Ta-Seti. Knowing ancient Nubia too well or not, has no bearing on the aformentioned concrete evidence: the tombs in the Qustul cemetary of the A-Group Nubians immediately lead to the first great royal monuments of Egypt's early Pharaohs, [b]in a progression. The tombs, as physical fact, only tell one story, which can't be twisted to fit another theory. This story is that Pharaoh traditions have their origins in Qustul, Nubia. For those who reject this conclusion from concrete evidence, it will certainly be welcoming to see concrete evidence that suggests otherwise!

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 31 October 2004).][/B]

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Just so there is no misunderstanding what do you call Pharaoh traditions?

Ozzy

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Just so there is no misunderstanding what do you call Pharaoh traditions?

Ozzy

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Let me use an excerpt published by the Oriental Institute at Qustul:

"On the incense burner, which was broken and had to be pieced together, was a depiction of a palace façade, a crowned king sitting on a throne in a boat, a royal standard before the king and, hovering above the king, the falcon god Horus. Most of the images are ones commonly associated with kingship in later Egyptian traditions."

Upper Egyptian kingship style that became the standard for Dynastic Egypt, is what I am talking about!

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Originally posted by sunstorm2004:
The Quetsal incense burner is one of the most famous and earliest items bearing iconography of Ausar/Heru worship. This was found in what would be termed "upper egypt" at the time, dating from times bordering on "pre-dynastic".

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This is not really the case. The Qustul incense burner is named precisely after the location it was found. It was found in the Qustul cemetary of the A-Group Nubians, Qustul in Nubia. It is true that the region lies in between upper Egypt, and the greater part of Nubia, but nonetheless Nubian territory! And yes, it dates back to the pre-dynastic era, even older than the first royal tombs & monuments of Egypt.

This is what research associate Dr. Bruce Williams, who carefully studied the incense burner and other Qustul cemetary artifacts station at the Oriental institute (affiliated with University of Chicago)in Qustul- almost at the "modern" Sudanese border, had to say about the pharaonic figure on the incense burner:

The majestic figure on the incense burner, is the earliest known representation of a king in the Nile Valley. His name is unknown, but he is believed to have lived approximately three generations before the time of Scorpion, the earliest-known Egyptian ruler. Scorpion was one of three kings said to have ruled Egypt before the start of what is called the first dynasty around 3050 B.C.

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sunstorm2004 writes:
So -- why is there so much talk among egyptologists about Set being worshipped in predynastic times? None of the books I come across get into this much. What's the deal there?

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Again, I don't know what Set has to do with the incense burner, but I am aware of the falcon god Horus, who was obviously worshipped in the predynastic era, at the time of the A-Group Nubian kingship. I have already pointed out earlier, the excerpt from the Oriental institute containing the description of the incense burner! The significance of the burner and other artifacts found in the Qustul Cemetary tombs, is the cultural relationship between the A-Group Nubians, and predynastic upper Egypt. It shows that the origins of Kemetian monarchy or kinship type, may have well been in that Nubian territory. To say the least, they shared a common culture in that point in time, during the pre-dynastic era!