posted
That's contentious. I think it would be bordering on sinister to imagine Egyptiannes (or any other national identity) as if it were something carried in the blood anyway, rather than a matter of culture and affiliation. The Ancient Egyptians themselves did not view Egyptianness this way. They were cultural rather than ethnic nationalists, which is the best way to be.
A Londoner, say, who descends from relatively recent arrivals like French Hugueanots or Polish Jews or Jamaican migrants, would arguably have as much right to consider StoneHenge and Shakespeare part of his heritage as someone whose ancestors had been in England since the bronze age. That said there is absoultely no reason to doubt that the average Alexandrian or Cairene descends from the people of the Pharaohs, just because they come from cosmopolitan cities as opposed to southern rural backwaters.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
I agree with you, I never said Delta and Cairan Egyptians don't have the right to the A. Egyptian culture. What I have a problem with is people putting up two or three images of a light skinned art and pretending other Images of Dark Skinned Egyptians don't exist.
How would you like it a bunch of Indians and Africans immigrants came into London and started claiming their phenotype built Stone Henge, St. Martins in the Feilds, Chiswick House etc. How would you like it if they started selling Movies and magazines with Indians and Africans as the original British and Anglos. Then to top it off claimed the White British were the result of slavery and only considered ONE Royal family as "White" and Labled that Family as "The White English Royals" etc.
Northern Egyptians and all other people need to show a little more respect toward the Upper Egyptians and Historians need to acknolwedge their presence and admit to the Role the Egyptians who live in "Southern Rual Backwaters" played in Egypt. It was these Egyptians, From "Southern Rual Backwaters" who were the Egyptians who built Thebes, Memphis, Saqqara, Neckhen, Abu Simbel etc. They Might live in Backwaters today but their forefathers were known the world over for their Wisdom.
If it was not for the South, Egypt as we know it would not have existed, plain and simple. Mesopotamia and "Caucasians" played little to any role.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I wouldn't like that, but I have come across Afrocentrists claiming the Ancient Britons/Celts/Vikings/Anglo Saxons were black, just as I've seen actual Egyptians getting undeserved abuse and being called impostors and squatters in a black land. Afrocentrists seem to be forever exaggerating the impact of migration to Egypt from Eurasia, and ignoring the fact that there was a more than equivalent amount of movement from black Africa over the same period. Hence the need to remind people that migration potentially enhanced rather than diluted the African component of Egypt's makeup. I've never claimed that Egypt was populated by Europeans, but the discipline of Egyptology owes much to Europeans, often dedicated scholars who are unjustly accused of covering up dicoveries or vandalizing statues, or forging artifacts & rewrite history. This is a wholly unfounded conspiracy theory.
Afrocentrics sometimes also do presume to take credit for all Europe's achievements, by promoting the myth that ancient Egypt was 'black African' (as if Africa was homogenous race) and that the Greeks derived all their arts and sciences from Egypt, and that all Europe's advances are founded on Egypt via Greece. Some of them also say the Jews were black.
I think Dr Hawass went too far saying that Egyptian civilization had 'no black element', bit his definition of black is clearly different from that of others. Most Egyptians apparently do not and did not identify themselves as black Africans, however oursiders saw them. They clearly differentiated themselves from the Nubians.
The 25th dynasty was set apart as it remained a dynasty of foreign occupiers. They retained their Nubian base and were buried in Nubia. As rulers of their former masters, the Nubians were perhaps kinder to Egypt than Egypt had the right to expect, but they did not naturalize, and there was no merging of the kingdoms. Egyptian Nubians are still very much an ethnic and cultural group unto themseves.
I think you underplay the boost that contact with the other cultures of the fertile Crescent gave to Egypt when it was a fledgling civilization. This contact with other advanced civilizations helped to propel Egypt to greatness while Nubia played catch-up. While Egypt has an African context, it also has a Mediterranean and Middle-Eastern one. It was connected to trade in the Eastern Med and across Aisa as far as India and Afghanistan. Many of the various capitals were in the north, Sakkara, Memphis, Tanis, Sais, Avaris, Pi Ramses, Alexandria etc, and there is no particular reason to think they were not built by lower Egyptians. They were a stone's throw from Sinai and the Holy Land, but a long way from the heart of Africa.
Naturally I would love to see Egypt becoming an egalitarian secular democracy (not that Egyptians have ever done democracy or secularism in the past) with all creeds and colours receiving equal rights and respect and credit for their achievements.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:I wouldn't like that, but I have come across Afrocentrists claiming the Ancient Britons/Celts/Vikings/Anglo Saxons were black, just as I've seen actual Egyptians getting undeserved abuse and being called impostors and squatters in a black land.
What do fringe Afro-centrics have to do with us?
quote:Afrocentrists seem to be forever exaggerating the impact of migration to Egypt from Eurasia, and ignoring the fact that there was a more than equivalent amount of movement from black Africa over the same period
Rahotep101- I have already addressed your claims about more genetic input from south of Egypt than north. I am really starting to believe that you don't read a thing anybody tells you. Most of the African lineages in Egypt are pre-pharanoic lineages, V, XI, and IV etc., introduced in late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene.
quote:Hence the need to remind people that migration potentially enhanced rather than diluted the African component of Egypt's makeup.
That makes no sense. All of your moronic claims here have been shut down in the other thread.
quote:This is a wholly unfounded conspiracy theory.
I agree.
quote:Afrocentrics sometimes also do presume to take credit for all Europe's achievements, by promoting the myth that ancient Egypt was 'black African' (as if Africa was homogenous race) and that the Greeks derived all their arts and sciences from Egypt, and that all Europe's advances are founded on Egypt via Greece.
Africa cannot be a homogeneous race as race doesn't exist. Africa is very diverse, and admixture doesn't explain that. Distance from sub-Saharan Africa is what determines phenotypic and genetic diversity.
quote:I think Dr Hawass went too far saying that Egyptian civilization had 'no black element', bit his definition of black is clearly different from that of others. Most Egyptians apparently do not and did not identify themselves as black Africans, however oursiders saw them. They clearly differentiated themselves from the Nubians.
How Egyptians chose to represent themselves is irrelevant in light of the biological data we have had for years now. Egyptians and Nubians were biologically the closest, with a south north cline. In modern Egypt there is a north-south cline, and, due to the substantial Middle Eastern genes in the modern population, their is continuity into the Near East that wasn't present in the past. You forget that Egypt was populated by sub-Saharan Africans...
quote:The 25th dynasty was set apart as it remained a dynasty of foreign occupiers. They retained their Nubian base and were buried in Nubia. As rulers of their former masters, the Nubians were perhaps kinder to Egypt than Egypt had the right to expect, but they did not naturalize, and there was no merging of the kingdoms. Egyptian Nubians are still very much an ethnic and cultural group unto themseves.
Just because their culture wasn't exactly the same, doesn't justify classifying them as separate "races". Especially since they were ethnically and biologically the closest to the ancient Egyptians. You cannot name another population closer to the ancient Egyptians than the Sudanese
quote:I think you underplay the boost that contact with the other cultures of the fertile Crescent gave to Egypt when it was a fledgling civilization. This contact with other advanced civilizations helped to propel Egypt to greatness while Nubia played catch-up. While Egypt has an African context, it also has a Mediterranean and Middle-Eastern one. It was connected to trade in the Eastern Med and across Aisa as far as India and Afghanistan. Many of the various capitals were in the north, Sakkara, Memphis, Tanis, Sais, Avaris, Pi Ramses, Alexandria etc, and there is no particular reason to think they were not built by lower Egyptians. They were a stone's throw from Sinai and the Holy Land, but a long way from the heart of Africa.
There was not a major Near Eastern influence, biologically or culturally in ancient Egypt. Such influences occurred later on.
1)Upper Egyptian culture was basically a Sudanese transplant
2)No united prehistoric Kingdom of lower Egypt existed
3)Upper Egypt dominated the north
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
^I wonder why is it that when Eurocentrics can't refute certain facts, they start crying Afrocentrism and instead begin rehearsing arguments they've heard before offered against extremists who we clearly do not support. Hiding behind 'Black' as some racial apartheid term won't help either. Ancient Egyptians were Africans and the evidence presented is quite clear on that front. All of those typologically contrived racial terms are irrelevant to the established relationships shared between ancient Egyptians and other Africans in the wide body of literature. Empty, hallow pronouncements of denial and straw man rebuttals cannot change that simple and basic fact.
One thing to address however, as the suggestions were historically erroneous and deserves some attention. Rahotep, a spectator in the 21rst century is claiming that the 25th dynasty was foreign and culturally distinct. What is curious is that the Upper Egyptians (priests of Ammon) did not seem to believe so. Ironically, during the inception of the 25th dynasty, northern Egypt (controlled by Assyrians) was considered 'foreign' but not a united upper Egypt and Kush. Hmm, wonder why that is...
quote: It is Piye's Year 3 Stele that preserves the earliest Napatan record of the kingship tradition of Gebel Barkal. Here he declares that "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)" (FHN I 57; Reisner 1931, 89). The twin Amuns of Barkal and Karnak are presented here as mutually supportive aspects of each other, each giving the king a vital portion of his kingship. Only one Amun, however, is shown in the lunette. This is the ram-headed god of Napata, whom the text says gave the king "every foreign country." Yet we see that he is the one handing the king two royal crowns and thus also giving him the kingship of "the Black Land." One crown is the Red Crown of Lower Egypt, and the other is the cap crown, which obviously had some meaning analogous to, but not quite identical with, the White Crown. Here Amun of Napata seems to be granting the gift ascribed to Amun of Thebes. We wonder if there is an inconsistency here, or if we are to understand that the two gods are really exactly the same and perform the same tasks. We also wonder what the king really means here by the terms "foreign countries" and "the Black Land." Does the Red Crown of Lower Egypt symbolize "foreign countries"? Does the cap crown symbolize "Kemet"? "Kemet", in this case, would have to be understood here as a united Nubia and Upper Egypt. By the time of Harsiotef, "Kemet" had come to mean Kush (FHN II 446).
---Timothy Kendall
^"Km't" here seems to simply refer to the children of the Nile valley in this instance, the sons of Heru. Egyptians would never consider embracing any other so-called "foreign occupation". This again speaks to the fact that Egyptians and Nubians were ethnically the most similar out of all other surrounding groups. Such goes deeper than colonial relations as stated in the same paper by Kendall who cites Gebal Barkal (a sacred mountain site in the Sudan claimed by the Egyptians as the dwelling place of Ammon and origin of Egyptian kingship) as representing a constant theme throughout Egyptian and Sudanese history in symbolizing renewal and kingship. The connection is even intuitive because the mountain is crudely shaped like that of the upper Egyptian white crown and coincidentally (or maybe not coincidentally) the very first image of the white crown was discovered in pre-dynastic Qustul, Sudan.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:^I wonder why is it that when Eurocentrics can't refute certain facts, they start crying Afrocentrism and instead begin rehearsing arguments they've heard before offered against extremists who we clearly do not support. Hiding behind 'Black' as some racial apartheid term won't help either. Ancient Egyptians were Africans and the evidence presented is quite clear on that front. All of those typologically contrived racial terms are irrelevant to the established relationships shared between ancient Egyptians and other Africans in the wide body of literature. Empty, hallow pronouncements of denial and straw man rebuttals cannot change that simple and basic fact.
It is strange, lol. I do not honestly see how he can think the Egyptian population stayed the same for 5,000 years, that makes no sense. He also seems to have an "Afro-centric" stereotype, so to speak, where he thinks everybody here agrees on the same things.
BTW, do you think that light skin in north Africa can be due to SLC24A5 111*A? I had heard you say it elsewhere. What was the study that said that again?
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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I usually ignore new posters who repeat tired old nonsense like afro this afro that.
All I can say is that you have 2 people (L, Sundjata) who have refuted every single arguement you have made with clear studies, yet you repeat the same foolishness as if you did not get schooled on your opinions.
You really need to read the posts directed to you and see just how badly your arguement has been debunked.
Funny thing is that you claim the 25th dynasty was foreign to the Egyptians, yet it was a reniassance and brought Egyptians closer to how they live in the earlier dynasties. No matter what your worthless opinion is, The closest to the Egyptians were the sudanese. Read L and Sundjata's posts to learn why.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
If you think that the ancient Egyptians invented the physical difference between themselves and their southern neighbours which is consistently reflected in their artwork esp in their break down of the different human races, then you will need to explain why they could have been so irrational.
The Y Chromosome study of Egyptian men (Lucote 2002) found only 10% Arab ancestry (except in Copts who have no Arab ancestry) & nearly negligible input from Romans, Greeks and Persians in the present population. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anf1cxheeS8
Keita says that inhabitants of the Nile Valey are in the main, but not wholly, descended from the pre-neolithic regional inhabitants. This is very different from saying that Egyptians come from sub saharan Africa. There was also input from the west and the east. He also acknowledges a similar range of skintones and phenotypes among modern egyptians as there was in the past. Modern Egyptians can be told apart from Sudanese, for the most part, and the same was clealy true historically. Brace found Egyptians to be close to Nubians, with ties to neolithic north Africa and modern Europe but not at all to sub saharan africans. (Even Nubians group distantly from sub-saharans). So aside from Southern Nilotic influences there were at least two sources of caucasoid influence on predynastic Egypt, i.e. Berber N. Africa and the Middle East. This is why many ancient Egyptian images look like Mediterranean caucasians more than black Africans. This is why Moses could be mistaken for an Egyptian, according to the Bible. (and so could Joseph).
The arab slave trade is well documented and was long lasting. I don't know how you can be so obtuse as to deny its likely consequences for Egypt's ethnic makeup. There were both white and black slaves in Egypt. Apparently circassian females were more desirable for harems but black africans were also used in this way, (and were more cheaply available).
posted
It's a gross distortion to portray other foreign occupations as disasters but the Nubian one as some sort of renaissance. It reflects an arbitrary, pan-African bias.
The 25th dynasty was obviously foreign. Herodotus lists the 'Ethiopian' kings of Egypt separately from the native ones, but counts those with some Libyan links as natives. The Nubian ones never naturalized, and their continuance of burial in Nubia speaks volumes. There are various political reasons why the Theban theocratic elite sided with the Nubians but this doesn't make Nubians Egyptians. The only reason Nubian rule was somewhat more palatable to some Egyptians was because Nubians had been steeped in Egyptian culture over previous centuries when the reverse colonial situation was in place. It was Hobson's choice between enduring control by complete foreigners like the Assyrians or being dominated by former subjects like the Nubians who at least had certain religious and cultural links. Nubian imperialist claims that Egypt is part of the same nation are about as credible as Nazi claims that Eastern Europe was 'greater Germany'.
It was expedient for the Saite kings, beginning from a position of weakness, to make an alliance with the Assyrians in order to reach a point where they were able to expel the southern invaders and unite Egypt. Assyrian influence was shrugged off at the first opportunity. A few Theban priests who preferred an alliance with Nubian invaders over the testoration of proper pharaonic rule can't be taken as a gage of Egyptian opinion in general. The restoration of Egyptian nationhood was dependent on the reimposition of a unified monarchy, not on Theban autonomy.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:If you think that the ancient Egyptians invented the physical difference between themselves and their southern neighbours which is consistently reflected in their artwork esp in their break down of the different human races, then you will need to explain why they could have been so irrational.
The Y Chromosome study of Egyptian men (Lucote 2002) found only 10% Arab ancestry (except in Copts who have no Arab ancestry) & nearly negligible input from Romans, Greeks and Persians in the present population.
Firstly, you are an imbecile. Copts DO indeed have Near Eastern ancestry at significant frequencies. I presented this to you numerous times in the other thread with the most recent articles. Why you chose to ignore the data presented in Hassan et al., (2008) is beyond me.
On to Lucotte (2003), that study shows lower Egyptians to have significant Eurasian admixture, so I really don't know what you are talking about:
Mind telling me how Mathilda got 10% foreign admixture?
It's no surprise that they are predominately African, that is something that I have upheld on this forum in the face of people like Mike111. However, it is also true that they have significant Eurasian ancestry, that is an undeniable fact. As such they cannot be taken as resembling the ancient population (AP Starling, JT Stock, 2007; Keita 2005) it is also a well known fact that small migration rates can drastically alter gene frequencies so much so that you can look at the population two thousand years later and find a huge difference (Keita, 2010).
quote:Keita says that inhabitants of the Nile Valey are in the main, but not wholly, descended from the pre-neolithic regional inhabitants. This is very different from saying that Egyptians come from sub saharan Africa
Surely you must be retarded, now! I provided you with the genetic evidence in another thread:
"Our findings are in accordance with other studies on Y-chromosome markers that have shown that the predominant Y-chromosome lineage in Berber communities is the subhaplogroup E1b1b1b (E-M81), which emerged in Africa, is specific to North African populations, and is almost absent in Europe, except in Iberia (Spain and Portugal) and Sicily. Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001)"
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations Frigi et al., (2010)
Underhill et al., 2001:
"The expansion of Neolithic farmers from the Middle East into Europe is also represented in the NRY data, although suggesting a relatively localized area of impact. As mentioned before in relation to African NRY history, a Mesolithic population carrying Group III lineages with the M35}M215 mutation expanded northwards from sub-Saharan to north Africa and the Levant (Fig. 3g)."
quote:This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic. Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt—such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)—show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic–early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations.
-- F. X. Ricaut and M. Waelkens (2008)
Genetic and cranial data shows the Egyptians to be descended from sub-Saharan populations, so I don't know wtf you are talking about. How about reading what I have already provided you, instead of ignoring it for your mythical beliefs?
In the mean time, what Keita actually says:
"Cosmopolitan northern Egypt is less likely to have a population representative of the core indigenous population of the most ancient times"--Keita (2005)
"Ancestry must not be confused with explanation, or gene history with population or culture history. Known ancestors and the “ancestors of one’s genes” are not the same things necessarily (Weiss and Long 2009)"-Keita (2010)
A small amount of gene flow per generation into a population or geographic region can drastically change its original gene frequencies in only a few thousand years, as noted by Cavalli-Sforza (1991)."-Keita (2010)
I can tell you aren't the type of person to actually read studies, but instead put words into others mouths.
quote:There was also input from the west and the east. He also acknowledges a similar range of skintones and phenotypes among modern egyptians as there was in the past.
Define west and east.
Range of skin tones is kind of irrelevant as nobody denied the diversity always present. However, as AP Starling and JT Stock stated in their 2007 study, there was a demographic change within the Nile Valley.
quote:Modern Egyptians can be told apart from Sudanese, for the most part, and the same was clealy true historically.
LOL! You are just too stupid. I really won't bother with this as it has been demonstrated to you in the other thread how stupid this is.
quote:Brace found Egyptians to be close to Nubians, with ties to neolithic north Africa and modern Europe but not at all to sub saharan africans.
Dude, you are referring to his old study which was corrected in 2005.
I reiterate:
quote:This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic. Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt—such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)—show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic–early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations.
-- F. X. Ricaut and M. Waelkens (2008)
Egyptian crania is linked to Niger-Congo populations and to sub-Saharan Africa in general
And what does his 2005 study show us?
"The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample, both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians, and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa" (Brace, 2005)
He corrected his study in 2005. Stop saying the same BS over and over when we have debunked it in the other thread.
quote:(Even Nubians group distantly from sub-saharans). So aside from Southern Nilotic influences there were at least two sources of caucasoid influence on predynastic Egypt, i.e. Berber N. Africa and the Middle East. This is why many ancient Egyptian images look like Mediterranean caucasians more than black Africans. This is why Moses could be mistaken for an Egyptian, according to the Bible. (and so could Joseph).
See, I'll tell you why north Africa could not have been a source for gene flow:
quote:The distribution of subsets of haplogroups U6 and M1 also suggests the presence of a discontinuity between Libya and Egypt, separating western North Africa from eastern North Africa. Even if both haplogroups are thought to have been carried by a back-to-Africa migration from the Near East, significant increased U6 frequencies have been detected in the West compared to the East. The network of all U6 sequences found in the database presents two nodes with star-like shape, U6a* and U6a1. In a similar way, M1a1 is the node with starlike topology in haplogroup M1, and the node where most of the eastern sequences are found. Time estimates of these nodes are 13.5 6 3.7, 13.0 6 5.7, and 13.1 6 7.0 kya for haplogroups U6a*, U6a1, and M1a1 respectively. The most plausible explanation of the frequency distribution of M1a, U6, and M1b1 lineages, their coalescence age estimates, and the star-like shape would be an early split in the back to Africa migration followed by a period of stability and a period of expansion. The split would have produced two different migration waves, one westward, represented by U6 and possibly M1b1 in lower frequencies, and the other southward, represented by M1a. Each haplogroup would have increased its frequency by drift and subsequently accumulated diversity over time. Coalescent time estimates point to a possible second expansion of these haplogroups at the end of the LGM, simultaneously with some Eurasian haplogroups, as suggested by Olivieri et al. (2006). Moreover, all but one M1a1 sequence are found in eastern North Africa, which suggests that this subclade might have appeared in the East, and only after that have migrated westwards at this period.
-- Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., (2011)
North Africa is genetically separated from eastern north Africa. The above information has been provided for you elsewhere as well.
On the other hand, we have:
"Genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in southern Egypt is indicated by comparable frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 subclade among southern Egyptians."-- Hassan et al. (2008)
In ancient Egypt there was no continuity with the Near East:
"Moving to the opposite geographical extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans". - Barry J. Kemp, Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization, 2006.
quote:This is why many ancient Egyptian images look like Mediterranean caucasians more than black Africans. This is why Moses could be mistaken for an Egyptian, according to the Bible. (and so could Joseph).
The above doesn't even deserve a response
quote:Mummy DNA studies from the Dakhleh Oasis region reveal much less maternal African DNA than that found in modern Egyptians. This is evidence of black migration, or of Egyptians having children by black female slaves. (Well it was good enough for the Medici).
Again, not applicable to northeast Africans.
On the subject of the Libyan Tuareg, I recently posted a recent article on their mtDNA here:
quote:The arab slave trade is well documented and was long lasting. I don't know how you can be so obtuse as to deny its likely consequences for Egypt's ethnic makeup. There were both white and black slaves in Egypt. Apparently circassian females were more desirable for harems but black africans were also used in this way, (and were more cheaply available).
Originally posted by Ausar:
quote:Mau, I could argue that the pale skinned Egyptians are mixed with the millions of white slaves brought into Egypt. White slaves were most desired by the elite. Most of the dark skinned Egyptians live in southern Egypt were the slave trade was non-existent. Plus most of the black African slaves brought into Cairo and Alexandria tended to be either slave soldiers or eunuchs. Neither left many offspring. The written records also account that important Sudanese women were not fertile and did not produce enough offspring to reproduce.
ausar is a Coptic Egyptian btw
Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:^I wonder why is it that when Eurocentrics can't refute certain facts, they start crying Afrocentrism and instead begin rehearsing arguments they've heard before offered against extremists who we clearly do not support. Hiding behind 'Black' as some racial apartheid term won't help either. Ancient Egyptians were Africans and the evidence presented is quite clear on that front. All of those typologically contrived racial terms are irrelevant to the established relationships shared between ancient Egyptians and other Africans in the wide body of literature. Empty, hallow pronouncements of denial and straw man rebuttals cannot change that simple and basic fact.
It is strange, lol. I do not honestly see how he can think the Egyptian population stayed the same for 5,000 years, that makes no sense. He also seems to have an "Afro-centric" stereotype, so to speak, where he thinks everybody here agrees on the same things.
BTW, do you think that light skin in north Africa can be due to SLC24A5 111*A? I had heard you say it elsewhere. What was the study that said that again?
Of course it is.
See: “Genetic Evidence for the Convergent Evolution of Light Skin in Europeans and East Asians” Heather L. Norton,*1 Rick A. Kittles
quote:Originally posted by Rahotep: The 25th dynasty was obviously foreign. Herodotus lists the 'Ethiopian' kings of Egypt separately from the native ones
Herodotus was not Egypitan and he lived 100's of years after the fact. This is what I mean by your preference for poor quality sources. The priests of Ammon embraced the Kushites as revivers and as shown to you, what is interesting is that part of Egypt [the north] at this time that was occupied by actual foreigners (Assyrians) was considered "foreign land".
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians; page 530
Edward Lane Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)
"On the Origin of the Egyptians. Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North." Mary Lefkowitz
"Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)
Now after reading these studies, Can you post your own studies that prop up your points?
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
L' Copts may have near eastern ancesty, but it is not the result of the Arab Muslim invasion, so must be older. It's not the result of Greeks or Romans, either, and there was no mass Persian settlement, so that's taking you right back into Ancient Egyptian times. This is surely old near-eastern admixture, not recent.
Do you want Adolf Hitler for the black race? You're welcome!
The Tamahu berbers (& the fair skinned Amazigh, as they now identify) belongs to this genetic type, as do the Sempardic Jews, very often. Do the fair berbers have exclusively African ancestry? Do you maintain that there is one 'African' race? It's not really news to me that the Maghreb is separated, ethnically and culturally, from Nile Valley civilization. There's a bit of a barrier called the Libyan desert to contend with. The north Africans on either side of it are still allowed to be the product of black-to-Africa migration.
The supposedly sub saharan feature found in N. Africans is a long skull in relation to the height, but this is dubious. Some white Europeans have long skulls, some negroids have very short skulls, and vice versa, something that is readily observable on any bus you get on. Most have identical proportions- cranial length to head height. It's not a reliable means of establishing racial origin as far as I can see. A long skull with caucasian features- i.e. narrow nasal apiture and minimal prognathism, is going to represent a race that is 'hard to call', as S. Anton put it. I am not really concerned with who lived in Neolithic Egypt, however, as it's dynastic Egypt that matters.
How one study can put Sub-Saharans on an entirely different branch to Egyptian and Nubian and European populations, and yet another can claim Egyptians descend from Sub Saharans is a bit of a mystery. Such anthropological studies, so often contradict, and if you don't like one's findings you only have to wait a couple of years before some other number cruncher comes along claiming something completely different. Meanwhile a consistent picture is painted by historcial evidence, and the Egyptians are not shown undergoing any significant ethnic modification from the early dynasties until the present. The biggest cultural disruption was the advent of Christianity, but it was Christianity that caused a section of Egyptian society to fossilize itself for the past 1400 years.
I doubt that there were that many white female slaves in Egypt, as they were more like luxury goods. Anyway they won't have made much imapct on the Copts as Copts wouldn't have had harems, or the status to own slaves. (Dhimmis were little better off than slaves to start with). I have, though, considered the possibility that white slavery has contributed to the European looks of some of the north Africans. A whole village in Ireland, Baltimore, was abducted by Barbary pirates at one stage. The white slave trade, however, was more of a Moroccan and Algerian phenominon.
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quote:L' Copts may have near eastern ancesty, but it is not the result of the Arab Muslim invasion, so must be older. It's not the result of Greeks or Romans, either, and there was no mass Persian settlement, so that's taking you right back into Ancient Egyptian times. This is surely old near-eastern admixture, not recent.
That's not what I heard
quote:According to this interpretation, the first migration, probably in Neolithic times, brought J-M267 to Ethiopia and Europe, whereas a second, more-recent migration diffused the clade harboring the microsatellite motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the southern part of the Middle East and in North Africa. In this regard, it is worth noting that the median expansion time of the J-M267-YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 clade was estimated to be 8.7–4.3 ky, by use of the TD approach (see fig. 4 legend), and that this clade includes the modal haplotype DYS19-14/DYS388-17/DYS390-23/DYS391-11/DYS392-11 of the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000) and of Moroccan Arabs (Bosch et al. 2001). These results are consistent with the proposal that this haplotype was diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century a.d., expanded to northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002).
--Semino et al. 2004
quote:Having the E1b1b1 haplotype doesn't mean much for one's ostensib race. That has been known among Europeans- including the Hitler family, it seems
LOL. Are you trying to say that the sub-Saharan Africans who populated the Nile Valley looked like Hitler Or at the very least, that they were non "black" so to speak? Don't be absurd, your implications are ridiculous.
quote:The Tamahu berbers (& the fair skinned Amazigh, as they now identify) belongs to this genetic type, as do the Sempardic Jews, very often. Do the fair berbers have exclusively African ancestry?
Along the Y chromosome they are predominately E-M81. However, on mtDNA they are predominately Eurasian due to their absorption of Eurasian females in the Holocene. Which is why they have an intermediate genetic structure between sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasians.
quote:Do you maintain that there is one 'African' race?
I never said there was. You always manage to misinterpret our arguments, it's pathetic.
quote:It's not really news to me that the Maghreb is separated, ethnically and culturally, from Nile Valley civilization. There's a bit of a barrier called the Libyan desert to contend with. The north Africans on either side of it are still allowed to be the product of black-to-Africa migration.
I see you manage to contradict yourself again. You said as follows:
quote:Originally posted by Rahotep101: there were at least two sources of caucasoid influence on predynastic Egypt, i.e. Berber N. Africa and the Middle East. This is why many ancient Egyptian images look like Mediterranean caucasians more than black Africans. This is why Moses could be mistaken for an Egyptian, according to the Bible. (and so could Joseph).
So I responded. At least keep your argument consistent.
I have no idea wth you mean when you say "black-to-Africa" migration.
If you meant to say back-to-Africa, then no. Only Northwest Africans are the product of ancient Eurasian migrations. Northeast Africans are descended from sub-Saharan populations. Which is why they are separated by a genetic discontinuity. Where the ancient Eurasian lineages in northwest Africa decrease significantly in eastern north Africa.
quote:The supposedly sub saharan feature found in N. Africans is a long skull in relation to the height, but this is dubious. Some white Europeans have long skulls, some negroids have very short skulls, and vice versa, something that is readily observable on any bus you get on. Most have identical proportions- cranial length to head height. It's not a reliable means of establishing racial origin as far as I can see. A long skull with caucasian features- i.e. narrow nasal apiture and minimal prognathism, is going to represent a race that is 'hard to call', as S. Anton put it. I am not really concerned with who lived in Neolithic Egypt, however, as it's dynastic Egypt that matters.
You are basing that on what exactly?
The measurements Brace used:
Variable no. Description 1 Nasal height 2 Nasal bone height 3 Piriform aperture height 4 Nasion prosthion length 5 Nasion basion 6 Basion prosthion 7 Superior nasal bone width 8 Simotic width 9 Inferior nasal bone width 10 Nasal breadth 11 Simotic subtense 12 Inferior simotic subtense 13 FOW subtense at nasion 14 MOW subtense at rhinion 15 Bizygomatic breadth 16 Glabella opisthocranion 17 Maximum cranial breadth 18 Basion bregma 19 Basion rhinion 20 Width at 13 (fmt fmt) 21 Width at 14 22 IOW subtense at nasion 23 Width at 22 (fmo fmo) 24 Minimum nasal tip elevation
The above measurements linked Niger-Congo to Ancient Egyptians along with sub-Saharans in general and separated ancient Egyptians from modern Egyptians. Stop with your lies as it is apparent that you aren't basing your statements on anything factual
quote:How one study can put Sub-Saharans on an entirely different branch to Egyptian and Nubian and European populations, and yet another can claim Egyptians descend from Sub Saharans is a bit of a mystery.
No it isn't LOL. In his old study he excluded several African groups, while in his newer study he included them. Which is why his old study has been criticized, i.e., because he excluded several groups from Sudan the Horn etc., his new study didn't.
quote:Such anthropological studies, so often contradict, and if you don't like one's findings you only have to wait a couple of years before some other number cruncher comes along claiming something completely different
They only contradict when one of them uses biased research, excludes groups etc., The cast majority of studies all support each other. You are dismissing the results just because you dislike them LOL
quote:Meanwhile a consistent picture is painted by historcial evidence, and the Egyptians are not shown undergoing any significant ethnic modification from the early dynasties until the present.
One of your more idiotic statements. How can history tell you whether or not a population went through morphological changes? It can't.
quote:I doubt that there were that many white female slaves in Egypt, as they were more like luxury goods. Anyway they won't have made much imapct on the Copts as Copts wouldn't have had harems, or the status to own slaves. (Dhimmis were little better off than slaves to start with). I have, though, considered the possibility that white slavery has contributed to the European looks of some of the north Africans. A whole village in Ireland, Baltimore, was abducted by Barbary pirates at one stage. The white slave trade, however, was more of a Moroccan and Algerian phenominon.
Well, ausar is an actual Coptic Egyptian, so I think I'll take his word over yours
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posted
Yes, and sadly for Rahotep and his ilk, Piye was not the First Pharoah to claim Aun of Napata had given him the Right to Rule over the Nile Lands but it was TuthmoseIII who made the claim when he came to Conquer Kerma.
When Tuthmose and the Egyptians came to Kush they found the Kushites worshipping a Ram Headed Sun God identified with Jebel Bekal, who the Amun Cult of Thebes Identified as the ancient form of Amun.
The Egyptians Called Jebel Bakel "The Pure Mountain" "Throne of the Two Lands" etc. and the Cult of Amun at Gebel Bakel was Linked with the Cult of Amun at Thebes, so it makes sense that the Theben Amun Cult would ask the 25th Dynasty kings with a strong Millitary to Reunite the Two lands as two Cultures(Of Thebes and Napata had been linked for hundreds of years.
ThuthmoseIII to the people of the "Southern Land"
“Listen, O people of the southern land, who are in the Pure Mountain called ‘Thrones of the Two Lands’ among men (though) it was unknown; thus you may know the miracle of Amun-Re, in the presence of the Two Lands, the like of which had never been …..the guards were just in the process of coming in order to meet in the night to carry out the regular watch. There were no skywatchers. A star came approaching to the south of them. The like had never occurred before. It shot straight at them and no one among them could stand. It slew as if they had never existed, they being prostrate in their blood and falling down prone. Now the uraeus was behind them with fire in their faces; no single man among them could retaliate; no one looked round. They had no more teams of horses, those having bolted in terror to the mountain. Such is the miracle that Amun did for me, his beloved son, in order to cause the inhabitants of the foreign lands to see the power of my Majesty” (Cumming 1982, n. 31, p. 4, 1238; cf. Reisner and Reisner 1933a, 27-28, 35-36).
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
One thing to address however, as the suggestions were historically erroneous and deserves some attention. Rahotep, a spectator in the 21rst century is claiming that the 25th dynasty was foreign and culturally distinct. What is curious is that the Upper Egyptians (priests of Ammon) did not seem to believe so. Ironically, during the inception of the 25th dynasty, northern Egypt (controlled by Assyrians) was considered 'foreign' but not a united upper Egypt and Kush. Hmm, wonder why that is...
quote: It is Piye's Year 3 Stele that preserves the earliest Napatan record of the kingship tradition of Gebel Barkal. Here he declares that "Amun of Napata granted me to be ruler of every foreign country," and "Amun in Thebes granted me to be ruler of the Black Land (Kmt)" (FHN I 57; Reisner 1931, 89). The twin Amuns of Barkal and Karnak are presented here as mutually supportive aspects of each other, each giving the king a vital portion of his kingship. Only one Amun, however, is shown in the lunette. This is the ram-headed god of Napata, whom the text says gave the king "every foreign country." Yet we see that he is the one handing the king two royal crowns and thus also giving him the kingship of "the Black Land." One crown is the Red Crown of Lower Egypt, and the other is the cap crown, which obviously had some meaning analogous to, but not quite identical with, the White Crown. Here Amun of Napata seems to be granting the gift ascribed to Amun of Thebes. We wonder if there is an inconsistency here, or if we are to understand that the two gods are really exactly the same and perform the same tasks. We also wonder what the king really means here by the terms "foreign countries" and "the Black Land." Does the Red Crown of Lower Egypt symbolize "foreign countries"? Does the cap crown symbolize "Kemet"? "Kemet", in this case, would have to be understood here as a united Nubia and Upper Egypt. By the time of Harsiotef, "Kemet" had come to mean Kush (FHN II 446).
---Timothy KendallSudan.
ThuthmoseIII claims Amun of Napata(Not Thebes) gives him the Right to Rule foreign lands..
Amen-Re on the summit of the Pure Mountain says: I have given you the kingship over both lands. -Napata stela of TuthmoseIIII
What this also proves is that the 25th Dynasty and the other Kushites prior to them were highly literate and knew full well about their impact further North in Egypt. For Piye to make the same claim as Tuthmose shows He knew full well about the sway Napata held in Egyptian Kingship.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Volume 3 Part 3 The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C.
Chapter Title Chapter 36b: The Greeks in Egypt
Publication Date 1982
Author T. F. R. G. Braun Digital Object Identifier (DOI) 10.1017/CHOL9780521234474.003
Overview Greek-Egyptian relations before Psammetichus I
Greeks arrived to settle in Egypt in the reign of Psammetichus I (664–610 B.C.). For the period that follows, Herodotus found that Egyptian and non-Egyptian information could be combined (II. 147). Thanks to Greek settlers mingling with the Egyptians, knowledge was now accurate (II. 154). Significantly, no Greek pottery datable to the period between Mycenaean times and 664 B.C. has so far been found in Egypt. Egyptian trinkets, on the other hand, were reaching the Greek world in the eighth century, and a bronze Egyptian jug at Lefkandi in Euboea would seem to date back as far as the ninth. These could have arrived by way of Phoenicia or Cyprus.
Some contact then, even if indirect, there must have been in the disturbed century before Psammetichus I. The Greeks retained some recollection of the Egyptian history of this time. We have seen how the king of Ethiopia and Egypt, who must have been Shabako (c. 716–c. 702 B.C.) in 711 surrendered Yamani of Ashdod, possibly a Greek (above, p. 16). This ‘Sabakōs’ is an historical figure for Herodotus (II. 137, 139) who in the fifth century could get a fair amount of information about the 25th (Nubian or Kushite) dynasty. Shabako's enemy was the delta king Bakenrenef son of Tefnakhte (c. 720–715 ?), whom he eventually captured and burnt alive. Bakenrenef, as Bocchoris, was to figure in Greek imagination, though Herodotus does not mention him. He is celebrated as a sagacious lawgiver in the Egyptian account of Diodorus (I. 45, 65, 79, 94) which derives from earlier Greek writing – probably in large measure from Hecataeus of Abdera, c. 300 B.C.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The priestood of Amon at Thebes were interested in preserving their quasi-regal automoy in the south. This made them natural rebels against the northern-based pharaohs and collaborators with the Nubians. The Saite pharaohs apparently had to bring the Thebans into line and drive out the Nubians before they could restore Egyptian national unity and usher in the glorious late period. Obviously 25th dynasty Nubian propaganda would put a divine seal of approval on their conquest of Egypt. They may as well have called the invasion 'operation Egyptian freedom' as if that would fool anyone.
The most highly populated part of Egypt was the Delta region, and Napata was about as far away from there to the south as Athens was to the north-west!
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: The priestood of Amon at Thebes were interested in preserving their quasi-regal automoy in the south. This made them natural rebels against the northern-based pharaohs and collaborators with the Nubians.
This does not answer why Tuthmosis the 3rd and the Amun Cult of Thebes made Napata the home of the Ancient Form of Amun. This does not answer why Tuthmosis claimed that Amun of Napata, not Amun of Thebes, gave him the right to rule foreign lands. Hell you cant even answer why the New Kingdom pharoahs were coronated at Natapta over any where in Egypt. I laugh at your logic and racist attempts at ducking Napata and Nubia's essential role in Egypt thousands of years before the 25th Dynasty.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: The Saite pharaohs apparently had to bring the Thebans into line and drive out the Nubians before they could restore Egyptian national unity and usher in the glorious late period. Obviously 25th dynasty Nubian propaganda would put a divine seal of approval on their conquest of Egypt. They may as well have called the invasion 'operation Egyptian freedom' as if that would fool anyone.
It was not the Thebean House that caused Egyptian Chaos but the reckless spending and instability of the Ramssedese House which curiously was a Delta based House that was not of Royal Blood from Thebes.
Another Curiosity is that the most Powerful Rulers and the Pharoahs who made Egypt the most powerful Empire were from the 18th Dynasty that originate from the likes of Ahmose, Seqenera Tao, and Amenhemhat.
Notihing the Saited did compare to the Families that originated from the south.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: The most highly populated part of Egypt was the Delta region, and Napata was about as far away from there to the south as Athens was to the north-west!
Another laugh considering that despite the Population density of the North and even its proximity to Mesopotamia and Europe it was a Cultural Backwater that was conquered by the South who usher in the Culture of Egypt.
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: The priestood of Amon at Thebes were interested in preserving their quasi-regal automoy in the south. This made them natural rebels against the northern-based pharaohs and collaborators with the Nubians. The Saite pharaohs apparently had to bring the Thebans into line and drive out the Nubians before they could restore Egyptian national unity and usher in the glorious late period. Obviously 25th dynasty Nubian propaganda would put a divine seal of approval on their conquest of Egypt. They may as well have called the invasion 'operation Egyptian freedom' as if that would fool anyone.
The most highly populated part of Egypt was the Delta region, and Napata was about as far away from there to the south as Athens was to the north-west!
"The priestood of Amon" blah blah blah....
Drive out the Nubians before they could restore Egyptian national unity? To where? lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I'm not sure what evidence there is for an ancient cult of Amon at Napata or Gebel Barkal. It makes sense that Egyptian conquerors would seek to legitimize their rule in Nubia by appropriating existing customs. (It might compare to how Edward I of England removed the Scottish coronation stone to Westminster.) Later the Nubians returned the favour, and pretended divine approval for their conquest of Egypt.
The decline of the New Kingdom was partly a result of the Theban priesthood becoming too powerful at the expense of the crown, although there were other factors such as foreign raids, internal plots and a financial crises. Nubians exploited the situation first to achieve independence and then to invade Egypt itself. The Saite kings of the north at first had to make an alliance with the Assyrians, but eventually achieved full independence and unity for Egypt, which was no mean feat. The Late Period was a glorious high noon for Ancient Egypt.
Egypt's north was no backwater. Most of the ancient capitals were situated there, eg Memphis, Tanis, Pi-Ramses, Herakleopolis, Xois, Avaris, Sais, Mendes, and Alexandria.
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: I'm not sure what evidence there is for an ancient cult of Amon at Napata or Gebel Barkal.
The Ancient Cult of Amun came to thebes with the 12th Dynasty, a Dynasty linked directly to Ta-Seti. Later when the Amun Cult went to Napata they found a Ram headed sun God, I.E Amun, and they connected it to the ancient form of Amun.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: It makes sense that Egyptian conquerors would seek to legitimize their rule in Nubia by appropriating existing customs. (It might compare to how Edward I of England removed the Scottish coronation stone to Westminster.)
Actually I would rather believe the Egyptians themselves who associated the Napatan diety to an Ancient form of Amun rather than some Grey Puppon eating Brit. Your example does'nt prove your point at all.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: Later the Nubians returned the favour, and pretended divine approval for their conquest of Egypt.
Pretended or not Napata was still Vital to Egyptian Kingship and the Amun Cult going back to the foundation of the Theban House back in the 12th Dynasty.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: The decline of the New Kingdom was partly a result of the Theban priesthood becoming too powerful at the expense of the crown,
Like always your statement is not grounded in fact, it was the Decline began by the Ramsses family that destablized Egypt. The Ramses family was not of Royal Blood from Thebes, maybe had Ramses never Ruled Egypt might have survived longer.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: although there were other factors such as foreign raids, internal plots and a financial crises. Nubians exploited the situation first to achieve independence and then to invade Egypt itself. The Saite kings of the north at first had to make an alliance with the Assyrians, but eventually achieved full independence and unity for Egypt, which was no mean feat. The Late Period was a glorious high noon for Ancient Egypt.
What is your obsession with the Saite Kings...Here is some images of how they depicted themselves..
-26th Dynasty, Bahariya Oaisis
LOL, let me guess you thought they were white huh. Sadly for you they depicted themselves blacker than the 25th dynasty royals did..LOL.
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: Egypt's north was no backwater. Most of the ancient capitals were situated there, eg Memphis, Tanis, Pi-Ramses, Herakleopolis, Xois, Avaris, Sais, Mendes, and Alexandria.
Nothing in the North compares to the sophistication and greatness of Waset AKA Thebes. All the cities you named except Memphis are nothing compared to thebes.
Also Heirokonpolis was located in the South Dummy, just an FYI.
The Grey Puppon must be causing brain damage.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: I'm not sure what evidence there is for an ancient cult of Amon at Napata or Gebel Barkal. It makes sense that Egyptian conquerors would seek to legitimize their rule in Nubia by appropriating existing customs. (It might compare to how Edward I of England removed the Scottish coronation stone to Westminster.) Later the Nubians returned the favour, and pretended divine approval for their conquest of Egypt.
The decline of the New Kingdom was partly a result of the Theban priesthood becoming too powerful at the expense of the crown, although there were other factors such as foreign raids, internal plots and a financial crises. Nubians exploited the situation first to achieve independence and then to invade Egypt itself. The Saite kings of the north at first had to make an alliance with the Assyrians, but eventually achieved full independence and unity for Egypt, which was no mean feat. The Late Period was a glorious high noon for Ancient Egypt.
Egypt's north was no backwater. Most of the ancient capitals were situated there, eg Memphis, Tanis, Pi-Ramses, Herakleopolis, Xois, Avaris, Sais, Mendes, and Alexandria.
I don't really know what you try to imply?
Anyway,
Napata and its Amun sanctuary remained the kingdom’s chief religious center and the premier site of all royal coronations. Well into the Common era, Jebel Barkal was thought to be the main Nubian seat of the god Amun, who conferred kingship upon the rulers of Kush – a kingship believed by its possessors to have descended, in that place, directly from the sun god Re at the beginning of time.
III. A. The Nature of Amun and the Mysteries of Jebel Barkal.(Amen)
It is clear from a complex surviving iconographic and textual record that from early Dynasty 18 the Egyptians assigned Jebel Barkal an outsized religious and political significance because of its peculiar shape. It is perhaps the unique Egyptian religious site that allows us to perceive how Egyptian religious beliefs were influenced by the natural landscape. The isolated hill evoked in the Egyptian mind the Primeval Mound of popular myth, on which Creation was thought to have taken place. “Proof” of the presence here of Amun as Creator was evident to ancient onlookers in the towering, statue-like pinnacle on its south corner (fig. 23), which, when viewed from different angles at different times of the day, suggested to them the forms of many different divine beings or aspects, all of which combined to confirm the presence and protean nature of the god, whose very name meant “Hidden.”
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he willjoin the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns)
Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt...
[URL=http://books.google.nl/books?id=092jP1lBhtoC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=a+king+will+come+from+the+south+%2B++egypt&source=bl&ots=7s-NQoHqXR&sig=pWzAS6HYvz7l-ciAxeNPhCfKb9s&hl=nl&ei =zYbsS86aLNvGOLDs_IoI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=a%20king%20will%20come%20from%20the%20south%20%2B%20%20egyptThen%20a%20king%20will%20come%2 0from%20the%20South&f=false ] The Oxford history of ancient Egypt [/URL]
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he willjoin the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns)
Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt...
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The statue of Amun shown is 18th Dynasty, and has the feautues of Tutankhamun (which are racially ambiguous). There is still no evidence of a cult of Amun at Napata predating the Egyptian invasions of Nubia.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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^^^^ Rahotep, the Cult of Amun was introduced to Egypt after the 12th Dynasty. The 12th came from Ta-seti so called Nubia. When Tuthmose III went to conquer Napata the Amun Cult found a Ram Headed God being worshipped at Napata.
The Amun cult was not stupid plus they had no reason to claim the Napata god as the Ancient form of Amun. Obviously THEY knew the origins of their own religion. For you or anyone to say different is absurd.
There is no direct evidence but there is evidence and it was enough to convince the Cult at thebes to bestow the Honor of Ancient Amun on the Napata Ram God.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Ta Seti was the most southerly nome (county) of Egypt proper, with its capital at Elephantine. It was still Egypt, though it bordered Nubia to the south. Still some way north of Napata.
Posts: 870 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2011
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You are right there is no such thing as a Nubian and Much of so called Nubia was a vital part of Egypt.(As with the 12th Dynasty bringing a God, Amun, from Ta Seti)..
It still does not change the fact that Amun came from the SOUTH of Egypt and his ancient form was found at Napata.
You are right these people are the founders and Royal Kings and Queens of the Nile who subjugated the people of the Delata for thousands of years.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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For the hapless surfer expecting to find analysis on the Mountains of the Moon supposedly being mentioned in some Book of the Dead papyrus, try the first 16 posts on page 1 of this thread or go to Mountain of the Moon on TNV.
There were a few others I vaguely recall. If I can find them will post their links.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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This thread is a picture perfect example of how white supremacists come here and take your mind and direct you away from a threads subject matter and make you chase the weasel 'round the mulberry bush.
Another thread slowly but calculatedly taken off topic and ruined. How the man must laugh at how easily he has come to dominate and direct ES. You guys must begin to corral him when he goes off, steer him to a thread appropriate for his tired John Bullshit and keep him roped in there.
Unless he stays on or close to topic ignore him but beware because he will post by post take you off your path. Examine him post by post in this thread to see how he works the fine art of digression.
Mountains of the Moon is about exhausted but is there nothing more to discuss the Edfu Text or the Papyrus of Hunefer?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Posts: 46 | Registered: Dec 2011
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Knowing your history will reinvigorate your mind and spirit. Europeans are against Afrocentrism because it teaches historical truths, while concensus history sustains White Supremacy.
Amos Wilson in The Falsification of Afrikan consiousness: Eurocentric history, psychiatry and the politics of white supremacy believes that the African spirit and mind can be healed through the advancement of African centered historiagraphic, social and natural sciences. Wilson wrote "Apparently the rewriting, the distortion and the stealing of our history must serve vital economic, political and social functions for the Europeans or slse he would not bother and try so hard to keep our history away from us, and to distort it in our own minds" (p.15).
To Wilson we should see history as psychohistory, since the aim of writing Black people out of history is to destroy any sense of intelletual or social self-esteem for African people. Wilson noted that" In the final analysis, European history's principal function is to first separate us from ourselves and separate us from the reality of the world; to separate us from the reality of our history and to separate us from its ramifications"(p.24).
Wilson maintains that we must study Afrocentric History, because Europeans use history as a way of maintaining white supremacy; and the study of history by Blacks is a threat to the status quo. Some Black people beliew that the writing of history is neutral. Writing history is not neutral. Michael Parenti, in History as Mystery (1999), believes that history is not neutral. In his opinion history is written by the ruling class to solidify their position. He observed that "much written history is an ideologically safe comodity. It might best be called "mainstream history", "orthodox history", "conventional history" and even "ruling-class history" because it presents the dominant perspective of the affluent people who preside over the major institutions of society" (Perenti, p.xi).
Parenti, supports Wilsons' view on the impact of Eurocentrism on education when he noted that " many history and political science programs offered in middle and higher education rest on a Eurocentric bias" (p.xiv). As a result, Parenti argues that we learned a "disinformational history" which represents the viwes of the ruling class rather than real history (p.10). As a result, Parenti claims that we have "consensus history textbooks" that teach history from a distorted base.
The comments of Wilson and Parenti,make it clear that history is not written from a neutral perspective, it is written by historians who define what history is or is not. This means that due to doxa, the personality and preconceptions of the historians determine how he writes history. As a result, we find that "establishment" historians usually write history which supports the dominant view of the ruling class, which primarially support institutions of higher learning through well funded endowments. The allegience of a particular historian to a class or "association" means that when the historian identifies, selects and interprets facts, and the framework used to appraise the facts will be guided by the truths accepted by the "association" or social class. This is why Jacques Berlinerblau, in Heresy in the University: The Black Athena controversy and the responsibilities of American intellectuals (1999), observed that "How can a social-scientist, a historian, a literary criticm etc., claim that his or her conclusion are in any way true when it is so abundantly clear that these conclusions are inextricably bound with the social and political contexts in which he or she works and lives?"(p.192).
Since history is written from the perspective of the person writing history, an Afrocentric scholar's work should be respect just as much as the writing of a Eurocentric or "establishment" historian, but this is not the case.
This is why both Eurocentric and so-called Liberal historians will usually agree that Blacks lack any type of ancient history, or association with Egyptian history. They agree, because both groups do not believe that Blacks have a ancient history due to their absorption of "concensus history", that deny any role of blacks in ancient history except as "Ethiopian" or "Nubian" slaves among the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians.
Afrocentric researchers correct this myth by writing about the history of Blacks in ancient times.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
^
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Mapping the Chinese and Islamic Worlds by Hyunhee Park 2012 Cambridge University
quote: The traditional sources of the Nile River were thought to be in a mountain range called Mountains of the Moon by ancient Greek and Muslim geographers. See Chapters 2 , 3 , and 4for its depictions in Muslim and Chinese maps. The real sources of the White Nile were found only in the mid- nineteenth century by the exploration of Sir Richard Francis Burton and John Hanning Speke. On this topic, also see Christopher Ondaatje, Journey to the Source of the Nile (Toronto, 1998).
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Hey can ya give Ptolemy reconstructed MotM map the same treatment? Please
The Ptolemy world map is a map of the world known to the Roman Empire in the 2nd c. AD. It is based on the description contained in Ptolemy’s book Geography, written c. 150.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Just to make sure u r sayin oldmapsbooks.com is now antiquemapsprints.com
thx 4 yr help
just go back to that old post and right click on the little broken page error icon where the old photo was and keep an eye on the URL right after you paste it in the URL field you will see oldmaps quickly flip to antiquemapsprints
^ Note how everything east of the Nile is also classified as 'Arabia' and not just the Arabian Peninsula. I've long noted that Greeks and other IE speaking peoples from the Celts, to the Germanics, and even the Persians and Indians tend to use rivers as borders instead of larger gulfs or lakes. The Persians used the Hindu (Indus) River as their eastern border of their empire with India proper beginning with the eastern banks of that river and the Greeks followed. The same with the western border of Arabia being the Nile River itself. Which is why even in some modern day maps the Eastern Desert of Egypt and Sudan is still called 'Arabian Desert'.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mountains of the moon is the theme
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
A'ight now keep your hackles down don't want no scruff between youse Teehee.
Yes, it's Eratosthenes and Hipparchus mapped out the Lunae Montes earlier as posted above. but does Herodotus indeed write about the Mountain of the Moon?
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Or at the very least, that they were non "black" so to speak? Don't be absurd, your implications are ridiculous.
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