We now have the evidence that the original Ancient Egyptians were indeed Black Africans. These lines of evidence include genetics, linguistics, osteology, history, and archaeology. The somatic norm of Ancient Egyptian society was altered with migrations from Eurasia following the New Kingdom. Given the fact that the preponderance of the evidence points in the African direction it is unsettling that Ancient Egypt is still portrayed as non-indigenous African in the media and even some popular scientific magazines such as Scientific Americana and National Geographic magazine. We need to devise methods to push the debate straight into the mainstream. We need to be more assertive. What methods can we come up with to push this issue into the mainstream in order to produce a debate and dialogue around this issue?
posted
Believe it or not, people take notice of debates in public arena and forums like these. But as pointed out earlier, documentaries and educational films is a powerful tool. Just look at the interesting turn of events from not only Nefertiti film, but also King Tut. Hollywood can by no means be depended on for realistic portrayal of events, or life for that matter. In Hollywood's history, American Indians, Blacks, Arabs, and Southeast Asians like the Chinese, the Indians,etc, were acted by white folks. "Othello" is a perfect example of this.
The alternative to the likes of National Geographic, is to have a popular magazine that will counter their potrayal.
BTW, book writing is also another tool. The debates that followed the release of "Black Athena" by Martin Bernal, Diop's "Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology" and "The Peopling of Ancient Egypt & the Deciphering of the Meroitic Script", "Black Spark, White Fire" by Richard Poe, several books by Van Sertima are examples of how effective this tool is, in generating discourse. Releasing such publications through popular outlets like Barnes & Nobles Bookstores can be a challenge, but once they are released, their impact can be quite phenomenal, as evidenced by the works of aforementioned authors!
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 06 February 2005).]
posted
I think a big budget, big released and hyped up Hollywood movie would be perfect. The Egyptian cast would have to be mostly black...with some lighter skinned people to play the Lower Egyptians.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I think a big budget, big released and hyped up Hollywood movie would be perfect. The Egyptian cast would have to be mostly black...with some lighter skinned people to play the Lower Egyptians.
Again, this is an issue that has come up many times. Prior to the New Kingdom, where is the evidence that Lower Egyptians were notably lighter than Upper Egyptians? By all indications, they seem to come from the same stock of people. It would seem this move would be to please the Eurocentrist who would argue that they were not all "black".
There may well have been a non-indigenous, or even lighter skinned population around the delta region, but where is the evidence? I actually believe there was a foreign element somewhere in the delta, but the only thing I'm going on is the Narmer Palette. What else is there? Not trying to debate you, just curious.
And was there even a significant delta population there prior to the New Kingdom? A program that came on PBS discussed an ancient document that basically said the pyramid builders were brought from Upper Egypt.
posted
What you need is a documentary showcasing both sides of the arguments in academia. We invite both mainstream Egyptologist and non-mainstream Egyptologist,and show case it on Discovery channel,TLC,or any other academic outlet. I have a documentary with S.O.Y. Keita,the late Frank J. Yurco,and Maulana Karenga. Also invite physical and biological anthropologist and archaeologist.
Make sure the general public gets to watch this debate because it will once and for all end this contrversey.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
I doubt it will end the controversy as the controversy is political, not scholarly.
Eurocentric Egypt was fabricated out of political necessity.
Perhaps the answer is to be patient and persistant - keep stating the truth supported by factual evidence as Eurocentrism is revealed to be false pride masquerading as 'history'.
An analogy would be the debate between Evolution and Creationism.
Evolution is 'winning' the debate simply because the facts won't ever go away no matter how much one hates them.
However, it is still controversal and likely will be for decades to come.
posted
This is the main problem as seen in the Black Athena debate. Most of the amunition that Leftowitz and crew aimed at the opposition was political. Hardly any of the debates invovled scientific reserch by anthropologist.
I must say also that often people on the other side of the Eurocentric coin have sometimes presented sloppy and sub-par scholarship. This is why your case has to be air tight;otherwise they will be able to use your weak points as strawmen and stop you from making main points. Remeber that Diop being an independent resercher really shocked the Egyptology community and they admitted they were illprepared. This transscript is still avaiable in by Gamal Mokhtar in General History of Africa II: Ancient Civilizations, UNESCO International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ausar: What you need is a documentary showcasing both sides of the arguments in academia. We invite both mainstream Egyptologist and non-mainstream Egyptologist,and show case it on Discovery channel,TLC,or any other academic outlet. I have a documentary with S.O.Y. Keita,the late Frank J. Yurco,and Maulana Karenga. Also invite physical and biological anthropologist and archaeologist.
Make sure the general public gets to watch this debate because it will once and for all end this contrversey.
posted
There is nothing for them to debate Ausar. Lefkowitz was right on the money with all of her charges. Most of the scholars you alluded to think this is so silly they don't even bother to respond. They are not going to debate you on the Discovery channel because they don't think you have a side to debate based on scholarship.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: We need to devise methods to push the debate straight into the mainstream. We need to be more assertive. What methods can we come up with to push this issue into the mainstream in order to produce a debate and dialogue around this issue?
I think this is a great idea, and I'm down for whatever. But the biggest problem is that same old song. Money, Money, Money. If you don't have it, you don't have a mesage. Getting funding is tough these days. Any ideas?
quote:Originally posted by Kem-Au: I think this is a great idea, and I'm down for whatever. But the biggest problem is that same old song. Money, Money, Money. If you don't have it, you don't have a mesage. Getting funding is tough these days. Any ideas?
Wally's website focusing on linguistics was one of the better ideas.
We need a similar site focusing on the hard bio-science, and yet another focusing on the documented historical record of the Nile Valley.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 07 February 2005).]
posted
This is a joke...you guys want to debate the mainstream scholars but the first time one of them disagreed with you they would be called an idiot, moron etc. Until the people on this board learn to conduct themselves like scholars nobody is going to take them seriously. Additionally, Egyptologists do not want to debate black politics.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Wally's website focusing on linguistics was one of the better ideas.
We need a similar site focusing on the hard bio-science, and yet another focusing on the documented historical record of the Nile Valley.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 07 February 2005).]
I'd be down to help with this. I'm not as qualified as many of you, but I'd do my part. I could get some web space set up and I know how to program. Let me know if anyone has some ideas.
posted
Kem, This is all been done. If you guys had a case it would have been made years ago. You cannot engague scholars with black politics.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kem-Au: I'd be down to help with this. I'm not as qualified as many of you, but I'd do my part. I could get some web space set up and I know how to program. Let me know if anyone has some ideas.
If pulled off, this would be a great idea. This way, references to studies can be directed from such a website. As we all know by now, repetition is a necessity in these discussions.
posted
first, you are going to have someone with a PHD in Egyptology or related field. They are the only people who will be given the floor. That person is going to have to write scholarly articles and appear at seminars on various topics and will have to prove their points to their peers.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Super car: If pulled off, this would be a great idea. This way, references to studies can be directed from such a website. As we all know by now, repetition is a necessity in these discussions.
A great amount of information can be referenced from the archives of this website. What is really lacking is 'presentation'.
I will tell you something: One of the reasons this site attracts a series of Eurocentrists trolls is because they get linked to it for rebuttal of their fallacious ideology.
Egyptsearch has been mentioned on the web as a site that demolishes Eurocentric nonsenses.
We just need to add (to wally's) a site that focuses on bioscience, and another on general history, they could be linked together in a web ring...and we'd then add a frankly much more secure forum for debating the ideas put forth.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 07 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: first, you are going to have someone with a PHD in Egyptology or related field. They are the only people who will be given the floor.
For once we agree. This in itself though is not necessarily a problem. We could talk to people at local universities for help. But it all boils down to money. If funds are lacking, you would at least need people who are very willing to give their time. Judging from the quality of posters on this forum, that might not be a problem, but will it be enough?
A professor with a PHD would be nice, but getting the word out would still be tough. There are a number of web sites on these topics, none of which would ever get a commercial during the Super Bowl. And while Diop and Hawass are legends on this forums, go outside and see how many people have heard of them. You could probably count them on one hand in the States.
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but breaking into the mainstream is tough. It probably will take a movie or something like that to get the message across to the public. Of course, the best method would be to change what kids are taught in school to make sure they learn the most accurate information available at the time.
posted
Egyptology is a soft science. For a debate on the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians you need physical and biological anthropologist. Egyptology works with other fields,and is not the single tool that is used by most in the field.
Archaeologist for pre-history which is most releavent is needed.
The following debate has been in academia since the advent of Egytology and will continue. Believe me its deeper than black national politics and if it were not then Leftowitz and others would not be writing about it. I have a debate between Leftowitz and Bernal.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why should Lefkowitz debate Bernal. She is only interested in Classicalist issues and he is not in that field. If the subject of the debate were classical greece he would not be qualified to debate her, if the subject was in his field it would be reversed.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Horemheb, Leftowitz has already debated Bernal in an open academic forum. If the debate was somewhat of political nationalism then it would have not went as far as it did.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: ausar: Horemheb, Leftowitz has already debated Bernal in an open academic forum. If the debate was somewhat of political nationalism then it would have not went as far as it did.
Just verification: I believe you meant to say that if it [weren't] for the political nationalism, the debate wouldn't have gone as far as it did, right?
And Rasol, I agree with what you said, as I am aware of the fact. So now, such a site would be used concurrently with this site, because this site has a wealth of imformation archived?
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 07 February 2005).]
The "Black Athena" Debate was a significant event on the internet that has gone mostly unremarked. Following the publication of Not Out of Africa by Mary Lefkowitz, her publisher, Harper Collins, sponsored a debate on the internet. The debate was conducted within a discussion group created for the purpose called athena-discuss. The two principals in the debate were supposed to be Mary Lefkowitz and Martin Bernal, whose Black Athena had been attacked by Lefkowitz. As it turned out, however, these principals contributed a rather brief exchange, and the remainder of the debate was taken up by a wide variety of contributors, both from within and outside the Academy.
At the core of the debate were two questions: were the ancient Egyptians a Black African people, and to what extent was the civilization of ancient Greece indebted to learning borrowed or stolen from ancient Egypt. Although the debate was cast in terms of Black Athena (Bernal) vs. Not Out of Africa (Lefkowitz), the true debate was between the Africentrists and the Eurocentrists, for much of what Bernal had to say in Black Athena on the questions at issue had been stated long before him by the Africentric scholars of this century, notably James (Stolen Legacy), and Diop (African Origins of Civilization and Civilization or Barbarism).
Key figures on the Africentric side of this larger debate were notable by their absence, for example, Ivan Van Sertima, Theophile Obenga, Charles Finch, Molefi Asante, Maulana Karenga, and Marimba Ani. On the other side, some of the well-known and very active detractors of the Africentrists were present, notably Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, supported also by Frank Yurco, who contributed from "off-line". These were supported by a number of less well known but nonetheless notable scholars attempting to "hold the line" for the received Eurocentric claims that were under atack. There were certainly enough professional scholars on both sides of the debate to make of this a remarkable cyber-event.
In my opinion, the debate was a great victory for the Africentric side. This probably explains why so little was heard of this remarkable cyber-event. Except for the website set up by Paul Manansala, the Afrocentric Debate Resource Homepage, and the article The "Black Athena" debate in cyberspace by the same author, it is almost as though this event never took place. Certainly, one searches in vain for mention of this debate by those on the anti-Africentric side.
I have selected for publication on these pages the portions of that debate in which I was engaged -- 71 articles posted between May 18 and June 11, 1996, when the list was somewhat precipitately shut down by Harper-Collins. This represents about 240K of traffic out of a total generated by the list of about 6000K.
Although I do not claim to be a historian or Egyptologist, certain aspects of the debate fell into areas in which I have some competence. My entry into the debate was with an article entitled Egyptian Science, the Greeks, and Mathematical PROOF, which responded to the claims of the anti-Africentrists expounding the received view that it is to the Greeks that we owe the notion of mathematical proof and the axiomatic method. I challenged that notion based in part on Diop's charges of plagiarism against such giants of Greek philosophy and mathematics as Archimedes, Plato, Aristotle, Thales, etc., but based also on two novel arguments: one from Kamitic cosmology and what it implies about their knowledge of syllogistic logic, and the other from an insight into the very nature of mathematical proof itself gained from my work, Fuzziness and Probability.
This article prompted a fast and furious response from a variety of detractors. One of these led, unwittingly, to a subsidiary discussion about the meaning of the Greek word, logismos, a word used by Plato to describe a branch of learning for which he credits the Egyptians. This word has been translated vaguely and generically as "calculus", when literally what it means is "logic-ism," which, not unrelatedly, very accurately describes what goes on in the name of the axiomatic method of mathematical proof, for which we are told Greeks deserve sole credit. This led to various other threads of discussion, including one which came to be called Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, during the course of which I was forced to lecture some of my detractors on the logical form of argument known as modus tollendo tollens (method of denying the consequent) and to correct the attempted improper use by them of this form of logical argument.
I invite you to read these articles. There is much here to engage the mind, and I hope it aids the task of the Africentrist in correcting the many misconceptions and out and out fabrications that still occupy the popular imagination, and that are still defended
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 07 February 2005).]
posted
That article makes an interesting note of a major discussion that was downplayed by the Eurocentric side of the Debate.
I guess as far as the earlier idea is concerned, about creating webrings related to Egyptology and history, one could give it a go ahead and see what happens. In the meantime a site like this ought to continue until traffic in the webrings justify a complete transfer of discussions to those sites. What do you think of that? Better ideas anyone?
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Build a web blog related to this issue.
Took the words right outta my mouth...If you guys build your blogs, I'll put a link to it from my website to your blog(s). (I would tell you how many times my pages have been read since I put them up, but a web design expert said that web counters were tacky...134,894 ...and people aren't going there to find out how to write their names in hieroglyphics neither...)
keep focused Does everyone remember that scene in Malcolm X where Elijah Muhammad showed Malcolm that rather than tell someone the water in their glass is dirty, it is better to show them a clean glass of water.
The unvarnished truth is the clean glass of water...
We should try to provide this to those who would benifit the most from it - the intelligent. It doesn't have to be mass, pop culture (which is a result and not a causative).
quote: We need a ... site focusing on the hard bio-science, and yet another focusing on the documented historical record of the Nile Valley. --rasol
So come on fellas...
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 07 February 2005).]
Well o.k then, if this settles it, there shouldn't be any reason for not acting immediately. Great ideas should be backed by action, within the shortest time possible!
posted
This whole thread sounds political, not hitorical, backing up the main point made by Dr. Lefkowitz. we have an enrtire body of academia floating around out there that is well aware of all the issues discussed. What can this board do that 300 Egyptologists have not already done?
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
This thread is not only political, but it is full of silly afrocentric arrogance to the extreme.
They actually, think that they can Ignore the Native Egyptians, most of whom do not support their biased points of view, and proceed to tell their own tales of fabricated history and faulty scientific methods.
This is total rubbish and all their efforts will fail, because they forgot the most basic of basic rules.....
To Get Respect, You Have to Show Some Respect to Others!!
I have been a keen observer of the tactics employed by some of these people and sadly, they want others to listen to them, but they're totally DEAF, themselves!!
How about this for a reality check!!
Get real, Guys, learn how to work within the established system, and most of all 'Don't Bite the Hand that Feeds You, i.e., The Egyptians and The Egyptologists.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: This whole thread sounds political, not hitorical, backing up the main point made by Dr. Lefkowitz. we have an enrtire body of academia floating around out there that is well aware of all the issues discussed. What can this board do that 300 Egyptologists have not already done?
[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 08 February 2005).]
[This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 08 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Super car: Well o.k then, if this settles it, there shouldn't be any reason for not acting immediately. Great ideas should be backed by action, within the shortest time possible!
Here's some help...
What is a Blog? A blog is basically a journal that is available on the web. The activity of updating a blog is "blogging" and someone who keeps a blog is a "blogger." Blogs are typically updated daily using software that allows people with little or no technical background to update and maintain the blog. Postings on a blog are almost always arranged in cronological order with the most recent additions featured most prominantly.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
...and people aren't going there to find out how to write their names in hieroglyphics neither...)
Printer-friendly view of this topic