posted
There is a certain section of “Westerners” that play on changes in socio-political landscape as some sort of a vindication that indigenous Africans cannot be credited for their indigenous achievements. Ancient Egypt, as popular as it is, is by no means the only victim of the distortionist bunch; their reasoning being that, many nations in Africa aren’t as economically well off as those in the “West”.
A mountain of historical and other factual evidence is thrown out of the window, when it comes to these proponents. Yet when asked about a Great European civilization (since the culprits here are mostly of European descent), that is considered the cradle of Civilization paralleling Ancient Egypt, these proponents interestingly become mute on the subject. Cradles of civilization have popped up in Africa and the near East, but Europe missed out. What happened here? I mean, these are lands of people who aren’t supposed to be capable. Why didn’t the European stock not bother taking care of their own backyard, but were rather busy being overly generous about creating complex civilizations elsewhere?
Greece had the earliest civilization that can be attributed to Europe, and yet Greece isn’t the most well off nation in Europe. The territory formerly known as Mesopotamia, was known for its great civilization of antiquity, yet in contemporary times, are not the most well of nations. Does this in anyway suggest that the indigenous people of these regions weren’t the creators of their indigenous heritage? The same can be asked of the ancient Americans.
Ancient Egypt was already at its height when Ancient Greek civilization came about, and it is the ancient Greeks, as opposed to Europeans of 19th century mentality, who attribute various aspects of their knowledge to ancient Egyptians. The people who actually lived these era of antiquity are now called liars by these present day 19th century-inspired people. Of course there is evidence laying around to corroborate the assertions of these people of antiquity, but that doesn’t mean anything to the aforementioned proponents. So I ask these proponents, where is your great Cradle of Civilization that predates that of Africa and the Near East?
posted
The only thing that pre-dates Sumeria/Egypt in Europe is the Cerny culture. You have various megaliths like New Grange,Malta,and Orkney Islands. I am not certain if this consitutes as a civlization,but they definately existed.
The original people who inhabited Europe were the Basque people. I believe the Basques might be related to the original Iberian people that lived in Europe. Not overly certain.
I don't know what living population are desendants of the Sumerians,but I know the closest people still living like the Sumerians is the Marsh Arabs living in the Marshlands in Iraq.
Not everybody in Iraq are direct desendants of the original forebearers that brought that civlization. Even in the Sumerian times there was invasions from Semetic speaking people such as the Akkadians and other groups called the Gutians. Some groups like the Kassites were Indo-European people.
In later times you had movements of Arameans,Armenians,and other groups.
The Chaldeans and Assyrians claim they are direct desendants of these two ancient people in Mesopotamia. Assyrians are Christians in northern Iraq.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ausar: The only thing that pre-dates Sumeria/Egypt in Europe is the Cerny culture. You have various megaliths like New Grange,Malta,and Orkney Islands. I am not certain if this consitutes as a civlization,but they definately existed.
I wouldn't call that a civilization. Nevertheless, if that were the case, complex culture in Africa doesn't begin with the Ancient Egyptian nation. The Nile valley culture yet predates the Egyptian nation.
posted
What you have to understand is that what develops a civlization is mainly a agritcultural base. This is the school of thought that comes from V. Gordon Childe. Of course, there are exaceptions like Papua New Guinea which independently developed agritculture but never developed into a civlization.
The earliest food producing centers in Egypt are the Faiyum and Merimede-Salama. An even older center is Khartoum Mesolithic-Neolithic in Sudan.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:The only thing that pre-dates Sumeria/Egypt in Europe is the Cerny culture. You have various megaliths like New Grange,Malta,and Orkney Islands. I am not certain if this consitutes as a civlization,but they definately existed.
The Maltese were Semetic speakers, a language that originated in Ethiopia. There is a huge chance that the people were akin to the Africans or West Asians.
quote:"The original people who inhabited Europe were the Basque people. I believe the Basques might be related to the original Iberian people that lived in Europe. Not overly certain.
There are also the Mongoloid groups that can be found in Russia, and even as West as Finland. It is said that such groups were present all around Northern Europe.
quote:I don't know what living population are desendants of the Sumerians,but I know the closest people still living like the Sumerians is the Marsh Arabs living in the Marshlands in Iraq.
The Sumerians are said to be related to the Elamites. The Elamites are related to the people of Indus Valley Civilization (or the Dravidians). This can explain the similar appearance between Dravidians, Marsh Arabs, and Southern Arabs. The original West Asian population were phenotypically similar to the Dravidian. This is why such people can be found even in Iran or Central Asia.
[This message has been edited by Roy_2k5 (edited 25 February 2005).]
posted
Super car...when you have to go back to the 'stone age' to find something for Africa you are in trouble. Drop it and joing western civilization and acomplish something for yourself and your family. In terms of holding up Africa as anything of merit there is an old saying, its a little crude but it makes the point: 'The more you polish a turd the worse you smell."
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: I wouldn't call that a civilization. Nevertheless, if that were the case, complex culture in Africa doesn't begin with the Ancient Egyptian nation. The Nile valley culture yet predates the Egyptian nation.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Super car...when you have to go back to the 'stone age' to find something for Africa you are in trouble. Drop it and joing western civilization and acomplish something for yourself and your family. In terms of holding up Africa as anything of merit there is an old saying, its a little crude but it makes the point: 'The more you polish a turd the worse you smell."
The proponents I was referring to obviously includes you. You make wild claims on a daily basis about African civilizations or their heritage and people you haven't the slightest clue about. So indeed, if it weren't indigenous Africans who created the African cradle, where is the earlier civilization of Europe that suggests that their kind indeed came to Africa, to create the great Nile Valley culture? Needless to add that, you will need to corroborate your logic with up-to-date peer-reviewed studies. Mind you, resorting to half-baked geopolitics and ethnic insult all day long doesn't answer this question. Good luck.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 25 February 2005).]
posted
who cares what happened in Africa 150,000 years ago. Modern civilization started with the Greeks and has progressed through western civilization to what we have today. This is not rocket science super car, its pretty basic stuff. Global capitalism offers tremendous opportunities for you and everyone else who wants a better life for their family. Why waste your life beating your head up aganist a brick wall that will NEVER come down?
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: who cares what happened in Africa 150,000 years ago. Modern civilization started with the Greeks and has progressed through western civilization to what we have today. This is not rocket science super car, its pretty basic stuff. Global capitalism offers tremendous opportunities for you and everyone else who wants a better life for their family. Why waste your life beating your head up aganist a brick wall that will NEVER come down?
You may not care, but it appears that the ancient Greeks, who felt gratitude for the Kemetians, cared about the contributions of the latter.
quote:Originally posted by Super car: You may not care, but it appears that the ancient Greeks, who felt gratitude for the Kemetians, cared about the contributions of the latter.
posted
super Car....nobody is listening to that stuff, you guys make complete fools out of yourselves when you promote this Greece/Africa idea. Let me tell you what it really does. When people hear that it REINFORCES every negative sterotype they ever had about blacks and Africans. The study of ancient greece is very complicated and very technical. My view is that most of you lack the background to even understand what you are reading. Most of the people I see promoting this idea are NOT classical scholars. Is it not noteworthy that every classical scholar who comments on the subject thinks it is downright silly. Stop wasting the only life you have on a useless political philosophy that can never prevail. You are worth more than that.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: super Car....nobody is listening to that stuff, you guys make complete fools out of yourselves when you promote this Greece/Africa idea. Let me tell you what it really does. When people hear that it REINFORCES every negative sterotype they ever had about blacks and Africans. The study of ancient greece is very complicated and very technical. My view is that most of you lack the background to even understand what you are reading. Most of the people I see promoting this idea are NOT classical scholars. Is it not noteworthy that every classical scholar who comments on the subject thinks it is downright silly. Stop wasting the only life you have on a useless political philosophy that can never prevail. You are worth more than that.
Do you have evidence that Greek confessions of Kemet's important influence, is something that they lied about? Your comment seems to suggest this, because they are the ones, who left records showing this. Forget modern scholars, and focus on their view of Kemet. In the meantime, I am still waiting for an up-to-date corroborated answer to the question I posed to you earlier.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 25 February 2005).]
quote:Do you have evidence that Greek confessions of Kemet's important influence, is something that they lied about? Your comment seems to suggest this, because they are the ones, who left records showing this.
Of course to answer this question he would have to have some passing [at least] knowledge about Ancient Greece.
Of course he has none.
Of course Professor Horemheb will soon be forced to retreat into off-topic mindless poltical rantings.
posted
Super car...you can't forget modern scholars. Every Greek scholar I have read disagrees with your assertions. I'm not saying there isn't one out there somewhere but if there is they are in a vast minority. My question is why you feel the 'need' to build this case come hell or high water? Even if everything you contend were correct it would not change the position of Africa or black people in the modern world. This desire to grab at 'every straw, every possibility' to build some sort of historical case is simply irrational.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Super car...you can't forget modern scholars. Every Greek scholar I have read disagrees with your assertions. I'm not saying there isn't one out there somewhere but if there is they are in a vast minority. My question is why you feel the 'need' to build this case come hell or high water? Even if everything you contend were correct it would not change the position of Africa or black people in the modern world. This desire to grab at 'every straw, every possibility' to build some sort of historical case is simply irrational.
Like I said, sloppy geopolitics about contemporary Africa, doesn't answer the parent topic question posed to you. I am still waiting. Well, if you won't believe modern scholars who simply reassert what the "Greeks" had to say about their Kemetian mentors, then the least you can do, is take the "ancient Greeks" for their word...unless you don't agree with them either.
quote:by rasol: We doubt you have ever read a "Greek" scholar.
I concur with this, given the nature of his thus far uncorroborated answers, which obviously fly in the face of scientific reality.
posted
Modern classical scholars do not agree with you super car and you know that. I am not going to get into a point by point debate with an Afrocentric. It is like debating someone who believes in UFO's on specific points, you end up going down roads that lead nowhere. I asked you a specific question, why is this important to you? what are you trying to acomplish?
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Modern classical scholars do not agree with you super car and you know that. I am not going to get into a point by point debate with an Afrocentric. It is like debating someone who believes in UFO's on specific points, you end up going down roads that lead nowhere. I asked you a specific question, why is this important to you? what are you trying to acomplish?
I'll let Thought2's earlier comment address this remark, because it does it so well:
quote: Thought Writes:
Attempting to label ones adversary is a tactic often utilized when one cannot stand on the facts alone.
You discredit any modern Scholar who simply reasserts the information the ancient Greeks have passed on, as left wing radicals. Bernal, Diop, Herodotus and other classical historians, Richard Poe (ironically a conservative republican) are on this list.
posted
You dodged my question again super car, what are you trying to acomplish, what do you want to get out of all this? Bernal, Diop and poe are not Classical scholars.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
horemheb what kind of information do you think the greeks were translating from the egyptians in the library of alexandria? Posts: 87 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: You dodged my question again super car, what are you trying to acomplish, what do you want to get out of all this? Bernal, Diop and poe are not Classical scholars.
Your question is irrelevant to the parent topic. We are talking history here, not crackpot geopolitics.
But if I must answer your question, what I want to accomplish here, is for people like you to answer the questions put forth in the parent topic.
Diop, Bernal and others, are modern scholars with various backgrounds. However, Herodotus is a classical writer, whom you also discredit. How about classical writers and thinkers like Aristotle, Euclid, Plato, Thales amongst many who confess tribute to ancient Egypt for their contributions to philosophy. Are all these folks left wing radicals?
How about this author, Robert Hah. He must be a radical for recognizing the obvious when he writes a book titled:
Anaximander and the Architects: The Contributions of Egyptian and Greek Architectural Technologies to the Origins of Greek Philosophy (Suny Series in Ancient Greek Philosophy (Paper))
You ought to read it.
Horemheb, which source states that Ancient Greek is the Cradle of Civilization? It will be interesting to see evidence for this.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 25 February 2005).]
posted
fromashes, the library in Alexandria was not even built until the 290's, centuries after the flowering of Greek civilization. This is the kind of mis-information I was talking about.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
super car...every 10th grade world history student learns that ancient Greece is the cradle of civilization. That diop and the others have an education is not the point, they are NOT, I repeat NOT specialist in ancient Greece.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: super car...every 10th grade world history student learns that ancient Greece is the cradle of civilization. That diop and the others have an education is not the point, they are NOT, I repeat NOT specialist in ancient Greece.
posted
David Gress: "black Athena is pernicious because it serves a political purpose HOSTILE to the culture of scholarship. It's very title is deceptive because Bernal offers no evidence that the Goddess Athena was considered to be black."
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Super car...the reason you dismissed my question asking what you hope to acomplish is the same reason that almost all of you avoided my previous question: would you still come to this board if race could not be discussed. You have to avoid these questions because they cut at the heart of just who you guys really are . You could care less about history, you are a black radical politican...you know this and so do I. There is not one ounce of interest in the culture of scholarship involved here. Super car, I know exactly what kind of person we are dealing with, nobody is being fooled here. the truth is YOU KNOW AS WELL. Since we all know the truth why don't you just stand up and admit why you are really doing this.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Super car...the reason you dismissed my question asking what you hope to acomplish is the same reason that almost all of you avoided my previous question: would you still come to this board if race could not be discussed. You have to avoid these questions because they cut at the heart of just who you guys really are . You could care less about history, you are a black radical politican...you know this and so do I. There is not one ounce of interest in the culture of scholarship involved here. Super car, I know exactly what kind of person we are dealing with, nobody is being fooled here. the truth is YOU KNOW AS WELL. Since we all know the truth why don't you just stand up and admit why you are really doing this.
Remember the Thought2 remark, it is still relevant here.
What do you think reference to notable Greek thinkers and historians is? From your remark, I take it that you aren't aware that these people are part of history. I am asking you to refute their confessions; they are the ones responsible for their comments, not me or any "modern" scholar for that matter. If you have some beef with them, take it with them. One problem; they are no longer alive to listen to gibberish.
If reasserting confessions of Greeks is radicalism, then that would make ancient Greeks the most radical people on the planet.
I answered your question, but like everything else, it is dismissed when it doesn't fit your agenda. This doesn't mean that you are off the hook; the parent topic question still stands. Answer it with up-to-date corroboration, or your non answer will be taken as you not having a clue.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 25 February 2005).]
posted
You don't have enough knowledge of classical Greek culture to even make an evaluation super car. Admit that you are really interested in politics and hate the west.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: You don't have enough knowledge of classical Greek culture to even make an evaluation super car. Admit that you are really interested in politics and hate the west.
This gibberish isn't a substitute for the questions put forth. They still stand for those who can actually answer simple questions. Thanx.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 25 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by fromashes_rise: horemheb what kind of information do you think the greeks were translating from the egyptians in the library of alexandria?
avoided the question again. Why do you hate the west Super Car?
Since when did truth telling become anti-Western?
I know that truth telling is like adding salt to a fresh wound, to those sections at which the main topic elementary questions were targeted, but with regards to honest people around the globe (including well-meaning Westerners), the truth is taken for what it is...the truth!
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 25 February 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by ABAZA: There is no such thing as an "African Cradle" of civilization.
The correct term is the "Mediterranean Cradle of Civilization".
Well Abaza, here is one simple question for you, that is, if you can handle it:
Do Egyptians live in the Mediterranean sea, or do they actually live on a landmass called Africa?
I know that the word "Mediterranean" is a nice tool for distortion amateurs like you, but it doesn't in anyway negate the Nile Valley being African.My 2c to you.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 25 February 2005).]
Nile Valley is in the Mediterranean? When was the region called 'Nubia' a part of the Mediterranean? Is Ancient Abyssinia also a part of the Mediterranean? You really need to learn some basic geography.
quote:Abaza: The answer is quite simple. The Egyptians have always been living in the Buffer Zone, between Black Africa (Sub-Saharan) and the Asian/Mediterranean Areas.
Abaza, you know very well that answer will get you an "F" for a grade. In fact, if there was any letter that determines an even lower grade, it will apply to your answer. Needless to say, your remark doesn't answer those elementary school questions.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: 46 replies and counting, lol. what a hapless lot of trolls.
You can say that again. I actually made the main topic questions so simple, thinking that even a troll cannot fail to answer them. I was wrong.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic