posted
Dr. Kwame Nantambu of Kent State University, USA had read the works of Lefkowitz (Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History), Dr. Theophile Obenga (A Lost Tradition: African Philosophy in World History), Aristotle (Metaphysics)and other ancient thinkers, and gathered some information on Kemetian Philosophy that appear to have inspired many not only from within, but also outside its borders.
According to Nantambu, Eyptian education embodied the strive to "become like God", "one with God", or "to become godlike through the revision of one's own 'Neter' of how god is revealed in the person.". For a commoner, the highest status of achievement was reflected in the ability of a son to become one of the "guardians of the state", which is what the Priests represented. Priesthood signified a "caste of brilliant thinkers". In this respect, these folks had the priviledge of high education, learning Grammar, Arithmetric, Geometry, Astronomy, Engineering, Sculpture, Metallurgy, Agriculture, Mining, Forestry, Music, Art, Carpentry, Magic, Masonry, Rhetoric and Dialectic. A student was referred to as a "Neophyte", and he was disciplined in the follow manner:
Control his thoughts
Control his actions
Have devotion of purpose
Have faith in the ability of his master to teach him the truth
Have faith in himself to assimilate the truth
Have faith in himself to wield the truth
Be free from resentment under the experience of persecution
Be free from resentment under experience of wrong
Cultivate the ability to distinguish between the real and the unreal ( he must have a sense of values)
Cultivate the ability to distinguish between right and wrong
These seem to parallel the Plato's three "cardinal virtues". For instance, "Control of thoughts and action" parallels Plato's "virtue of wisdom", "freedom from resentment under persecution" parallels Plato's "virtue of fortitude", "the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, and between the real and unreal" parallels Plato's "virtues of justice and temperance."
As Nantambu put it, the "Hippocrtic Oath" portrays Hypocrates as "father of medicine", when history tells us that Imhotep was worshiped by the Greeks as the "God of Medicine" 2,000 years before the birth of Hypocrates.
Indeed this Greek worship of Imhotep is mentioned elsewhere:
Imhotep (God of Healing and Medicine)
" Imhotep:
Of the non royal population of Egypt, probably one man is known better then all others. So successful was Imhotep (Imhetep, Greek Imouthes) that he is one of the world's most famous ancients, and his name, if not his true identity, has been made even more famous by various mummy movies. Today, the world is probably much more familiar with his name then that of his principal king, Djoser. Imhotep, who's name means "the one that comes in peace". existed as a mythological figure in the minds of most scholars until the end of the nineteenth century when he was established as a real historical person. He was the world's first named architect who built Egypt's first pyramid, is often recognized as the world's first doctor, a priest,. scribe, sage, poet, astrologer, and a vizier and chief minister, though this role is unclear, to Djoser (reigned 2630–2611 BC), the second king of Egypt's third dynasty. He may have lived under as many as four kings. An inscription on one of that kings statues gives us Imhotep's titles as the "chancellor of the king of lower Egypt", the "first one under the king", the "administrator of the great mansion", the "hereditary Noble", the "high priest of Heliopolis", the "chief sculptor", and finally the "chief carpenter"…
Imhotep may have been born in Ankhtowë, a suburb of Memphis early in Egyptian history. However, other classical writers suggested that he was from the village of Gebelein, south of ancient Thebes. His father might have been an architect named Kanofer. His mother could have been Khreduonkh, who probably belonged to the province of Mendes, and he may have had a wife named Ronfrenofert but none of this is by any means certain. As a commoner at birth, he rose through the ranks quickly due to his genius, natural talents and dedication…
He was later even worshipped by the early Christians as one with Christ. The early Christians, it will be recalled, adapted to their use those pagan forms and persons whose influence through the ages had woven itself so powerfully into tradition that they could not omit them.
He was worshiped even in Greece where he was identified with their god of medicine, Aslepius. . He was honored by the Romans and the emperors Claudius and Tiberius had inscriptions praising Imhotep placed on the walls of their Egyptian temples. He even managed to find a place in Arab traditions, especially at Saqqara where his tomb is thought to be located.
Imhotep lived to a great age, apparently dying in the reign of King Huni, the last of the dynasty. His burial place has not been found but it has been speculated that it may indeed be at Saqqara, possibly in an unattested mastaba 3518." - Courtesy of touregypt.net
Phrases like "man know thyself" were known to the Greeks (in Greek, qnothiseauton) from Socrates, however these words appear on the outside of Kemetian temples for the benefit of the neophytes.
This too has been referenced elsewhere:
"Below are some of the powerful teachings proverbs found in the temples of Luxor.
- The best and shortest road towards knowledge of truth is Nature.
- For every joy there is a price to be paid.
- If his heart rules him, his conscience will soon take the place of the rod.
- What you are doing does not matter so much as what you are learning from doing it. · It is better not to know and to know that one does not know, than presumptuously to attribute some random meaning to symbols.
- If you search for the laws of harmony, you will find knowledge.
- If you are searching for a Neter, observe Nature! Exuberance is a good stimulus towards action, but the inner light grows in silence and concentration.
- Not the greatest Master can go even one step for his disciple; in himself he must experience each stage of developing consciousness. Therefore he will know nothing for which he is not ripe.
- The body is the house of God. That is why it is said, "Man know thyself."
- True teaching is not an accumulation of knowledge; it is an awaking of consciousness which goes through successive stages.
- The man who knows how to lead one of his brothers towards what he has known may one day be saved by that very brother…"
The aforementioned phrase itself doesn't appear only once in these texts of Nile Valley temples.
Another saying, "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we shall die" which Socrates used, was actually coined by Imhotep, "the world's first recorded multi-genuis".
Parallels have also been made between Egyptian gods and goddesses, and that of the Greeks. For instance, Egyptian Amun parallels Zeus in Greece and Jupiter in Rome.
Again reference to such parallels have been documented elsewhere:
"Amun
Other Names: Ammon, Amen, Kematef Patron of: the wind, the sun, in later periods he was the supreme deity. Appearance: A man with a punt beard and feathered crown, sometimes wearing the sun disk. He is also shown as a ram or ram-headed man.
Description: A primordial Egyptian creation god, a member of the Ogdoad, and the consort of Amaunet. He was also the consort once of Mut, their child is the moon-god Khonsu.
Worship: Cult centers at Karnak and Deir-el-Bahari (near Luxor), after he was combined with Ra he became the primary deity of the state religion. He was also worshipped by the Greeks as a variant of Zeus." - touregypt.net
Similarly, Egyptian Heru appears as Apollo in both Greece and Rome; Imhotep (God of Healing and medicine) was renamed Asclepius in Greece and Aesclapius in Rome; Djehuti/Thoth appears (God of Science, Writing and Knowledge) makes his appearance as Hermes in Greece and Mercury in Rome; Pluto remained "Pluto" in both Greece and Rome; Ausar (God of resurrection) was renamed Osiris by the Greece...another reference to this:
"Osiris: There is an interesting parallel between Osiris, a fertility/agriculture god, and the Greek Persephone, an agriculture goddess. Both end up in the underworld through treachery and both are kept there by "legal loopholes" in the laws of the gods. Persephone remains in the underworld for half a year because she tasted the food of the dead. Osiris remains in the underworld because Ma'at dictates that the dead, even dead gods, may not return to the land of the living." - touregypt.net
Continuing with gods and goddesses, we have Egyptian Goddess Hathor (the Goddess of love and beauty) makes an appearance as Aphrodite in Greece and Venus in Rome; Goddess of maternity Ist (Aset) was renamed Isis and worshiped as the "Black Madonna". As Dr. Nantambu put it, "Isis has had such an impact on Europe that if we were to decipher Paris, the capital City of France, we get Per Isis: Per means Temple, while Isis means "House of Isis"; so the capital of a major European country is named in honor and eternal worship of an Afrikan Deity/Goddess)"
These are just insights on some the Egyptian thoughts that became a source of inspiration. They left us "Book of the Dead", the Rhind and Moscow Papyrus, the Pyramids, the Temple inscriptions, and many more to tell their story.
Sources in addition to Dr. Nantambu's notes; his references have been mentioned above, include touregypt.net and aldokkhan.com.
quote:Phrases like "man know thyself" were known to the Greeks (in Greek, qnothiseauton) from Socrates, however these words appear on the outside of Kemetian temples for the benefit of the neophytes.
Is there a standing (specific) temple in Egypt where this famous 'greek' saying is referenced?
If course it would automatically be pre Thales 550 AD (to whom it is attributed).
And what is the exact phrase in mdw ntr?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Is there a standing (specific) temple in Egypt where this famous 'greek' saying is referenced?
If course it would automatically be pre Thales 550 AD (to whom it is attributed).
And what is the exact phrase in mdw ntr?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 March 2005).]
There's a lot of ways to say this, but I'll try and find the exact phrase used. also, "Other Names: Ammon, Amen, Kematef" Kematef means "the Black Crown" --and it's not nitpicking here at all, but "per" does not mean "temple"; it means "house" or the wall that surrounds the house (ie, a compound). --"The House of Isis" means something somewhat different than the "The Temple of Isis"; a subtle but significant nuance, I think...
Oh, and also, "Per Isis" would be pronounced "PerIsi", even a closer match for the etymology of the word "Paris", you think?
[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 14 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Is there a standing (specific) temple in Egypt where this famous 'greek' saying is referenced?
If course it would automatically be pre Thales 550 AD (to whom it is attributed).
And what is the exact phrase in mdw ntr?
Sorry I couldn't respond earlier; had been away. But to answer your question, it is was customary to have those notes outside and inside of Egyptian temples. There is no one single temple that the notes were limited to. The notes I have, are just but a piece of literature posted outside the temples. Other literature were posted inside the temples for the neophytes (students, who were destined to become Priests).
The only reference I have even seen to ''Man , Know thy Self on a temple comes from George G.M. Jame's book Stolen Legacy.
As a matter of fact I intend to do further research on this, but I believe that in addition to the temples in Luxor and Karnak, the Kemetian versions of the above saying can be found in the Ru Pert Em Heru(Book of the Dead), the Temple of Auset in Philae, and the Temple of Ausar in Abdyos.
For further reading on this, check out "Her-Bak: The Living Face of Ancient Egypt" and "Her-Bak: Egyptian Initiate" by Isha Schwaller de Lubicz.
In fact, the proverbs on Egyptian temples were gathered by the above author, who spent time in Egypt, studying stuff related to this.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 16 March 2005).]
posted
Guys, just cuz there happened to be some similarities between Greek and Egyptian phrases does not mean the Greeks derived it from Egypt!
There were many differences between Greek and Egyptian philosophy. For example, the Greeks concieved a dualism between humanity and nature, where civilized rational humans and wild irrational nature were at conflict with each other. The Egyptians on the other hand believed that there was no such division between mankind and nature and that humans are part of nature. They also believed that animals and other living things should be respected since their spirits like those of humans were created and are part of the Divine. Perhaps the biggest difference and contradiction between the Greek and Egyptian philosophies was that Greek philosophy was more secular, while Egyptian more religious. In fact there were some Greek philosophers who even questioned the existence of the gods. Such a thing was unthinkable for the Egyptians!
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Guys, just cuz there happened to be some similarities between Greek and Egyptian phrases does not mean the Greeks derived it from Egypt!
There were many differences between Greek and Egyptian philosophy. For example, the Greeks concieved a dualism between humanity and nature, where civilized rational humans and wild irrational nature were at conflict with each other. The Egyptians on the other hand believed that there was no such division between mankind and nature and that humans are part of nature. They also believed that animals and other living things should be respected since their spirits like those of humans were created and are part of the Divine. Perhaps the biggest difference and contradiction between the Greek and Egyptian philosophies was that Greek philosophy was more secular, while Egyptian more religious. In fact there were some Greek philosophers who even questioned the existence of the gods. Such a thing was unthinkable for the Egyptians!
As I wrote elsewhere, you are confusing the context of "influence" and "derivation". To say that Greek culture was derived from Egypt, would mean that their culture was Egyptian. Nobody is saying that, and not even in the parent notes. So what you are doing here is non-sequitur.
It doesn't change the fact that Egypt had strong influences on Greek science and concepts of Gods. Greeks also borrowed from other cultures they came across from the near East. What is being said, is that these influences had important implications on the development of Greek culture. You have not proven otherwise.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 19 March 2005).]
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Djehuti, I can't say I agree with you there are no texts about ancient Egyptians questiong the exitence of god. Here is an example from Miriam Lichtheim's translation of the Blimd Harper:
"Blessed nobles are buried in their tombs/Yet those who built tombs,/Their places are gone,/ What has become of them?/ I have heard of Imhotep and Hardedef [great sages of old]/ Whose sayings are recited whole./ What of their places?/ Their walls have crumbled,/ Their places are gone,/ As though they had never been!/ None comes from there,/ To tell of their state,/ To tell of their needs,/ To calm our hearts,/ Until we go where they have gone!/ Hence rejoice in your heart!/ Forgetfulness profits you,/ Follow your heart as long as you live!/ Put myrrh on your head/ Dress in fine linen,/ Anoint yourself with oils fit for a god./ Heap up your joys,/Let your heart not sink!/ Follow your heart and your happiness,/ Do your things on earth as your heart commands!/ When there comes to you that day of mourning,/ The Weary-hearted hears not their mourning,/ Wailing saves no man from the pit!"
(Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol. I: The Old and Middle Kingdoms, University of California Press, 1975, pages 196-197).
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Super car: ...It doesn't change the fact that Egypt had strong influences on Greek science and concepts of Gods. Greeks also borrowed from other cultures they came across from the near East...
How strong were these influences on science? Could you give some examples?
More importantly, exactly what religious concepts did the Egyptians have on Greece?!! There is evidence that points out certain deities have their origin from the Near-East like Aphrodite, but non from Egypt! Could you provide any examples of Egyptian influence on Greek gods? It better not be that connection between Neith and Athena because that has been debunked already! The Egyptians very concept of the divine was strikingly different from the Greeks!
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Djehuti, I can't say I agree with you there are no texts about ancient Egyptians questiong the exitence of god. Here is an example from Miriam Lichtheim's translation of the Blimd Harper:
"Blessed nobles are buried in their tombs/Yet those who built tombs,/Their places are gone,/ What has become of them?/ I have heard of Imhotep and Hardedef [great sages of old]/ Whose sayings are recited whole./ What of their places?/ Their walls have crumbled,/ Their places are gone,/ As though they had never been!/ None comes from there,/ To tell of their state,/ To tell of their needs,/ To calm our hearts,/ Until we go where they have gone!/ Hence rejoice in your heart!/ Forgetfulness profits you,/ Follow your heart as long as you live!/ Put myrrh on your head/ Dress in fine linen,/ Anoint yourself with oils fit for a god./ Heap up your joys,/Let your heart not sink!/ Follow your heart and your happiness,/ Do your things on earth as your heart commands!/ When there comes to you that day of mourning,/ The Weary-hearted hears not their mourning,/ Wailing saves no man from the pit!"
(Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol. I: The Old and Middle Kingdoms, University of California Press, 1975, pages 196-197).
Proto-Existentialism? (!) -
existentialism - chiefly 20th century philosophical movement embracing diverse doctrines but centering on analysis of individual existence in an unfathomable universe and the plight of the individual who must assume ultimate responsibility for his acts of free will without any certain knowledge of what is right or wrong or good or bad.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Djehuti, I can't say I agree with you there are no texts about ancient Egyptians questiong the exitence of god....
Exactly!!
Questioning the existence of the gods was considered unthinkable by the Egyptians, let alone blasphemous, but that was what many Greek philosophers did!!
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posted
Djehuti, Ausar is saying that questioning the existence of the Gods was not unthinkable to the Kememu. They did it, like most other things...long before Greece existed, as evidenced by the primary text sighted.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: How strong were these influences on science? Could you give some examples?
How about the Pythagoran theorem and the use of pi. You honestly believe that the Egyptians had not known this before he did? Egyptian Solar calendar system, has been used later by the Greeks. No other culture at the time, had anything similar to the Egyptian solar calendar.
As for Euclid, it gets even better. He was actually born, raised, and educated in Egypt. This is also where he developed his mathematical ideas. Can one understand this, and claim that Egyptian mathematics had no bearing?
Alexander Library was a center of learning for Greeks. Was this an accident?
Unfortunately only few papyri have survived on the developement of Kemetian maths, but if you have ever heard of Hypatia, you would know that Kemetian mathematic had developed much further than what we know from the Rhind and Moscow Papyri. I've touched on this earlier: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001523.html
quote:More importantly, exactly what religious concepts did the Egyptians have on Greece?!! There is evidence that points out certain deities have their origin from the Near-East like Aphrodite, but non from Egypt! Could you provide any examples of Egyptian influence on Greek gods? It better not be that connection between Neith and Athena because that has been debunked already! The Egyptians very concept of the divine was strikingly different from the Greeks!
quote:How about the Pythagoran theorem and the use of pi. You honestly believe that the Egyptians had not known this before he did? Egyptian Solar calendar system, has been used later by the Greeks. No other culture at the time, had anything similar to the Egyptian solar calendar.
Well, the Pythagorean theorem was known to many different people including the Hindus,Chinese,and Babylonians. Egyptians knew 3-4-5 Pythagorean triangles but not really the basis for the Pythagorean theorem.
We have found the Pimperton tablets in Babylon that shows that the Babylonians knew of it.
I will agree with you about Pi. Along with this can be demonstratied that Egyptians knew the diameter of a circle and a volume of a trucadated pyramid. Usually these are attributed to Archimedes or Exodoxus[sp] [wondering about these citations,Djehuti,then check out the book Richard Gillings Mathematics in the time of the Pharaohs MIT Press]
quote:As for Euclid, it gets even better. He was actually born, raised, and educated in Egypt. This is also where he developed his mathematical ideas. Can one understand this, and claim that Egyptian mathematics had no bearing?
Alexander Library was a center of learning for Greeks. Was this an accident?
Can you prove he direct got his mathematics from the Egyptian models. Certainly you can say he learned in Alexandria but you have to show methods he learned there and show these methods existed in previous Egyptian texts.
The main Egyptian influence in Alexandria was anatomy and medicine.
The schools of Alexandria were mainly founded by Greeks,and not by native Egyptians.
quote:Unfortunately only few papyri have survived on the developement of Kemetian maths, but if you have ever heard of Hypatia, you would know that Kemetian mathematic had developed much further than what we know from the Rhind and Moscow Papyri. I've touched on this earlier: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001523.html
quote:Well, the Pythagorean theorem was known to many different people including the Hindus,Chinese,and Babylonians. Egyptians knew 3-4-5 Pythagorean triangles but not really the basis for the Pythagorean theorem.
Exactly! So I suppose all these people even the Chinese must have had even a little Egyptian influence! LOL
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Exactly! So I suppose all these people even the Chinese must have had even a little Egyptian influence! LOL[/B]
You forgot this:
quote:I will agree with you about Pi. Along with this can be demonstratied that Egyptians knew the diameter of a circle and a volume of a trucadated pyramid. Usually these are attributed to Archimedes or Exodoxus[sp]
[wondering about these citations,Djehuti,then check out the book Richard Gillings Mathematics in the time of the Pharaohs MIT Press]
Our meager sources about ancient Egyptian mathematics
Some modern scholars believe that much, if not all, of the pre- Hellenic Egyptian mathematical knowledge was already firmly established in or before the Old Kingdom .
This is hardly surprising because by then, the agricultural economy of the Nile valley had been based for several thousand years on its surveyors’ ability to properly compute the areas of the annually inundated and re-measured fields. The farmers could only begin to plant once the mud- obliterated boundaries of their properties were securely and verifiably re-determined -- for who would want to waste his carefully saved seed grain on what might turn out to be a neighbor’s land?
Yet, despite this reliance of the ancient Egyptians on geometry for their basic livelihood, despite their well attested interest in matters of the mind, and despite their equally well attested contacts with Mesopotamia, one of the cradles and nurseries for number mysticism, their math skills are belittled or denied by many mainstream scholars today. Some current authors try to tell us that the Egyptian scribes had no interest in non- practical mathematics. In the words of one modern mathematician, they were
“ ... clever but very, very primitive. With no algebra, no trigonometry, hardly any geometry, and laborious arithmetic, the Egyptians were not going to make any deep mathematical discoveries and in fact they did not.”[1]
This reflects the views of an earlier leading scholar in the field who concluded his discussion of Egyptian mathematics and astronomy with this assertion:
“Ancient science was the product of a very few men; and these few happened not to be Egyptians.”[2]
Most of these detractors typically omit to tell us how little we know about Egyptian mathematics, and that the minuscule sampling of surviving papyri with mathematical content does not enable anyone to judge what the ancient Egyptians did or did not know.
Whereas the inhabitants of Mesopotamia, the land between the Two Rivers, left us several thousand clay tablets with mathematical contents, only eight clearly mathematics- related documents survive from the Two Lands along the Nile. These are :
· An inscription in the tomb of Methen, a Third Dynasty noble who died around 2,600 BCE[3], which gives a calculation for the area of a rectangle.
· The Moscow Mathematical Papyrus with 25 problems from late Middle Kingdom times[4], bought in the 1890s from a notorious tomb robber[5] and now at the Museum of Fine Arts in Moscow. Seven of these problems are not clear because, according to Richard Gillings, the author of “Mathematics in the Time of the Pharaohs”, its scribe was “a very bad writer” whose hieratic sign forms were “criminally inconsequent” and who had copied from “a faulty original, or an original which he did not understand”.
The comprehensible parts of that papyrus deal with routine divisions of bread and beer, the areas of triangles and rectangles, plus two formulae that have no counterpart in the other surviving documents: the correct volume of a truncated pyramid which Gillings says “has not been improved upon in 4,000 years”, and a controversial calculation which some scholars believe to give the surface area of a hemisphere. Regarding the latter, Gillings adds that “if this is so, it becomes the outstanding Egyptian achievement in the field of mathematics”[6].
· The famous Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, a roll of 14 papyrus sheets, out of the 20 sheets that usually made a complete roll at its time. Mr. Rhind bought most the surviving parts in the 1850s on the Luxor antiquities market, and these are now at the British Museum in London. Additional fragments from the same papyrus came up for sale a decade later and wound up in the Brooklyn Museum, New York.
That papyrus dates from around 1550 BCE and is about two centuries younger than the original from which a scribe named Ahmose said he had copied it. The content itself seems to be still older. For instance, Gay Robins and Charles Shute point out that the pyramid slopes in its problems 57 to 59 were used in the Fourth Dynasty and became universal during the Sixth but had been abandoned by the Twelfth when the original for the Rhind’s surviving copy was purportedly written[7].
The Rhind parts we have contain 84 problems in basic arithmetic and elementary geometry with their solutions, plus three more that remain enigmatic. Although this papyrus is our most extensive single source of information about ancient Egyptian numeracy, it was only a study aid for apprentice scribes[8]; moreover, its copyist did not always fully grasp what he wrote, and he left out some important elements[9].
· The Egyptian Mathematical Leather Roll, a now extremely brittle piece of leather 10 inches by 17 inches, now in the British Museum. This roll was also bought on the antiquities market. It is said to have been found near the Rhind Papyrus in the ruins of the Ramessseum at Thebes and to date back to the Middle Kingdom. It contains a duplicate collection of 26 sums done in unit fractions, as in the Rhind Papyrus, and was apparently a “handy table for popular use, probably the work of a junior official, not of a schoolboy because the writing is far too good”[10].
· The Reisner Papyri: four badly worm- eaten rolls found in Upper Egypt by the archaeologist George A. Reisner that are now in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. As Gillings describes them, these Papyri were for the most part the official registers of a Middle Kingdom dockyard workshop. They contain long lists of workers, cargo, and foodstuffs, as well as calculations for the building of a rectangular temple in terms of foundation volume to be excavated, labor required, and stone supplies. Some other sections give various totals and many large numbers without any context. Its writer made many, although slight, errors in the more complicated operations[11].
· The Kahun Papyrus was found by the archaeologist Flinders Petrie at the workers’ town Kahun near the pyramid of Sesostris II and dates also from around 1800 BCE. It “contains six mathematical fragments, not all of which have been penetrated”. The three of these fragments that have been explained repeat a portion of a list from the Rhind Papyrus, and one of the unclear fragments seems to deal with a progression[12] that resembles Problem 40 from the Rhind Papyrus[13].
Another one of the fragments lists pairs of squares that produce squares as their sum, all of them variations of the well- known 32 + 42 = 52 equation we learned in school as an example of the so- called Pythagorean theorem about the squares over the sides of a right- angled triangle. This list has been interpreted by some as possibly an early expression of that theorem although it does not mention the sides of a triangle[14].
· The salary list for personnel of the Illahun temple, also found near Kahun and assigned to the Middle Kingdom. This relatively short list contains several errors and omissions. It is concerned with distributing loaves of bread and jugs of beer in which some of the parts expressed as fractions amount to no more than crumbs and drops[15].
· The Berlin Papyrus, a group of unprovenanced fragments now in Berlin that are believed to date from about that same time[16]. The largest of these scraps is about the size of your palm; it deals with square roots and the decomposition of a given square into sums of two squares. Gillings describes the condition of these fragments as “mutilated, so that the restorations, although quite reasonable and plausible, perhaps still remain open to some slight reinterpretation”[17].
This is it.
These few bits and pieces are all the known written traces that remain from the daily mathematical activities of millions of people in a region a thousand kilometers long, during more than three thousand years of pharaonic civilization.
Add to this time span the about equally long period of Nile valley farming during which field geometry developed, long before the invention of writing, and you can appreciate how little we really know about ancient Egyptian mathematics.
posted
I never doubted the Egyptians possessed such mathematical and scientific knowledge! How do you think they were able to build the Great Pyramids!!
All I'm saying is you gotta be careful with the diffusionist stuff, as Ausar says!!
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All I'm saying is you gotta be careful with the diffusionist stuff, as Ausar says!!
Thought Writes:
Do you have any examples of such mentioned here on this forum? If so that would serve as a great point of engagement and discussion. Thanks in advance.
Well, the Pythagorean theorem was known to many different people including the Hindus,Chinese,and Babylonians. Egyptians knew 3-4-5 Pythagorean triangles but not really the basis for the Pythagorean theorem.
What you fail to take into consideration, is that a connection is made between Pythagoras and Egypt in the available records, and not the Hindu, or the Chinese. Pythagoras supposedly did pass by Babylon, but not until after his trip from Egypt. Moreover, there is no evidence as of yet, that Pythagoras actually proved the theorem, which he is credited with. Whereas, we have some evidence that the Kemetians knew the concept well ahead of Pythagoras, and that was the whole point.
As for biographical information on Pythagoras, there have been some inconsistencies throughout the period. Though, there is no evidence of Pythagoras writing about his life, available records from a few of his contemporaries, and especially later writers, all agree on reports of his travel to Egypt and the near East.
“Pythagoras wrote nothing, nor were there any detailed accounts of his thought written by contemporaries. By the first centuries BC, moreover, it became fashionable to present Pythagoras in a largely unhistorical fashion as a semi-divine figure, who originated all that was true in the Greek philosophical tradition, including many of Plato's and Aristotle's mature ideas. A number of treatises were forged in the name of Pythagoras and other Pythagoreans in order to support this view…
References to Pythagoras by Xenophanes (ca. 570-478 BC) and Heraclitus (fl. ca. 500 BC) show that he was a famous figure in the late sixth and early fifth centuries. For the details of his life we have to rely on fourth-century sources such as Aristoxenus, Dicaearchus and Timaeus of Tauromenium. There is a great deal of controversy about his origin and early life, but there is agreement that he grew up on the island of Samos, near the birthplace of Greek philosophy, Miletus, on the coast of Asia Minor. There are a number of reports that he traveled widely in the Near East while living on Samos, e.g., to Babylonia, Phoenicia and Egypt. To some extent reports of these trips are an attempt to claim the ancient wisdom of the east for Pythagoras, but relatively early sources such as Herodotus (II. 81) and Isocrates (Busiris 28) associate Pythagoras with Egypt, so that a trip there seems quite plausible…
In the modern world Pythagoras is most of all famous as a mathematician, because of the theorem named after him, and secondarily as a cosmologist, because of the striking view of a universe ascribed to him in the later tradition, in which the heavenly bodies produce “the music of the spheres” by their movements. It should be clear from the discussion above that, while the early evidence shows that Pythagoras was indeed one of the most famous early Greek thinkers, there is no indication in that evidence that his fame was primarily based on mathematics or cosmology. Neither Plato nor Aristotle treats Pythagoras as having contributed to the development of Presocratic cosmology, although Aristotle in particular discusses the topic in some detail in the first book of the Metaphysics and elsewhere. Aristotle evidently knows of no cosmology of Pythagoras that antedates the cosmological system of the “so-called Pythagoreans,” which he dates to the middle of the fifth century, and which is found in the fragments of Philolaus. There is also no mention of Pythagoras' work in geometry or of the Pythagorean theorem in the early evidence…
If Pythagoras was primarily a figure of religious and ethical significance, who left behind an influential way of life and for whom number and cosmology primarily had significance in this religious and moral context, how are we to explain the prominence of rigorous mathematics and mathematical cosmology in later Pythagoreans such as Philolaus and Archytas? It is important to note that this is not just a question asked by modern scholars but was already a central question in the fourth century BC. What is the connection between Pythagoras and fifth-century Pythagoreans? The question is implicit in Aristotle's description of the fifth-century Pythagoreans such as Philolaus as “the so-called Pythagoreans.” This expression is most easily understood as expressing Aristotle's recognition that these people were called Pythagoreans and at the same time his puzzlement as to what connection there could be between the wonder-worker who promulgated the acusmata, which his researches show Pythagoras to have been, and the philosophy of limiters and unlimiteds put forth in fifth-century Pythagoreanism. The tradition of a split between two groups of Pythagoreans in the fifth century, the mathematici and the acusmatici, points to the same puzzlement. The evidence for this split is quite confused in the later tradition, but Burkert (1972a, 192 ff.) has shown that the original and most objective account of the split is found in a passage of Aristotle's book on the Pythagoreans, which is preserved in Iamblichus (On Common Mathematical Science, 76.19 ff). For fourth-century Greeks as for modern scholars, the question is whether the mathematical and scientific side of later Pythagoreanism derived from Pythagoras or not. If there were no intelligible way to understand how later Pythagoreanism could have arisen out of the Pythagoreanism of the acusmata, the puzzle of Pythagoras' relation to the later tradition would be insoluble. The cosmos of the acusmata, however, clearly shows a belief in a world structured according to mathematics, and some of the evidence for this belief may have been drawn from genuine mathematical truths such as those embodied in the “Pythagorean” theorem and the relation of whole number ratios to musical concords. Even if Pythagoras' cosmos was of primarily moral and symbolic significance, these strands of mathematical truth, which were woven into it, would provide the seeds from which later Pythagoreanism grew. Philolaus' cosmos and his metaphysical system, in which all things arise from limiters and unlimiteds and are known through numbers, are not stolen from Pythagoras. They embody a conception of mathematics, which owes much to the more rigorous mathematics of Hippocrates of Chios in the middle of the fifth century; the contrast between limiter and unlimited makes most sense after Parmenides' emphasis on the role of limit in the first part of the fifth century. Philolaus' system is nonetheless an intelligible development of the reverence for mathematical truth found in Pythagoras' own cosmological scheme, which is embodied in the acusmata.”
- Courtesy of Stanford Univ. with primary sources from : Diels, H. and W. Kranz, 1952, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker (in three volumes), 6th edition, Dublin and Zürich: Weidmann, Volume 1, Chapter 14, 96-105 (Greek texts of the early testimonia with translations in German. Referred to as DK.).
And while on the subject of science, how about the important gift of writing, not to mention the medium on which to write it on: the papyrus! Did the Greeks not take advantage of this development?
Indeed it is the easy management of this material, and its portability that allowed Egyptians to adopt it. But at the same time, it is not as durable as clay tablets, which is why many Egyptian records from day to day writing have been easily lost in time. This has obviously allowed some folks to downplay Egyptian developments in math and other possible contributions to the Greeks, which would have otherwise been even more visible had these records survived.
quote: ausar: Can you prove he direct got his mathematics from the Egyptian models. Certainly you can say he learned in Alexandria but you have to show methods he learned there and show these methods existed in previous Egyptian texts.
Can you prove that his mathematical education didn’t include concepts learned from Egyptian scribes?
quote: ausar:
The main Egyptian influence in Alexandria was anatomy and medicine.
The schools of Alexandria were mainly founded by Greeks,and not by native Egyptians.
So setting up schools in Alexandria didn’t stop Egyptian influences in anatomy and medicine from filtering in, did it?
Perhaps I should have been more specific about my reference to learning center as being that of the Alexandria Library, which didn’t only include the work of Greeks. The Greeks could have built such a library in Greece, but they didn't. This was supposed to have taken place, when the ancient Greek development was running at its full potential. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3707641.stm
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I never doubted the Egyptians possessed such mathematical and scientific knowledge! How do you think they were able to build the Great Pyramids!!
All I'm saying is you gotta be careful with the diffusionist stuff, as Ausar says!!
That is not what you were saying. You were attempting to put words in other people's mouth, by talking of Greeks claims that "Greeks derived their culture from Egypt", when in fact, it has been stated very clearly time and again, that Egyptian influences had strong implications for the development Greek culture. There is a difference between the two logics.
You have yet to provide one quote in which the Greeks ever made such a claim.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 20 March 2005).]
quote:ausar: Yes,Hypathia was probably a native Egyptian.
She may well have been a Greek descent who never left Alexandria, but more to the point, is that mathematics in Kemet was far more developed than the stage at which some people tend to leave it at, simply because little of what the Kemetians jotted down remained. Hypatia's case was no different, when most of the material of her work disappeared. She happened to be a well known female mathematician, who came into conflict with Cyril, and was murdered as a result of that. This story somehow survived in time, and hence her legend. The remains of her actual work is meager, despite the fact that she was a well known mathematician and philosopher, needless to say which, she had to have done something in the field of math that was exceptional. The priests who obviously enjoyed the privilege of good and complete education, but were secretive about their knowledge, would only have stood out if they had done something exceptional and were remembered for that particular event, and hence also recognized for the amount of knowledge they possessed, even if actual records of what they had worked on didn’t survive the test of time. The papyri on which they worked on, due to low durability, will ensure that we will never know the full potential of these folks. But careful analysis of Kemetic creations and objects, tells us that their knowledge in mathematics was well beyond available Papyri information. Even something as overlooked (in terms of the mathematical elements that were incorporated into it) as the Narmer mace head gives us an insight into this. This interesting website provides an example on this: http://www.recoveredscience.com/const134hermeticsecrets.htm
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 20 March 2005).]
And due to their ability to calculate the areas of curved surfaces after floods changed property lines, I would guess that their mathematical capabilities were far greater than the Rhind and Moscow can tell us.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: For example, the Greeks concieved a dualism between humanity and nature, where civilized rational humans and wild irrational nature were at conflict with each other.
This reminds me somehow of the Biblical order, given out in Genesis, that humans must have dominion over all other lifeforms. Is this a common cultural trait in the Eurasian part of the Eastern Mediterranean region?
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: This reminds me somehow of the Biblical order, given out in Genesis, that humans must have dominion over all other lifeforms. Is this a common cultural trait in the Eurasian part of the Eastern Mediterranean region?
It seems to be more complicated than that. Biblical texts also say that all of nature and the universe is in itself under the order of God. So even nature itself has a certain order to it.
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I don't consider it far-fetched that Kemet may have known what is now considered the Pythagorean theorem.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:This reminds me somehow of the Biblical order, given out in Genesis, that humans must have dominion over all other lifeforms. Is this a common cultural trait in the Eurasian part of the Eastern Mediterranean region?
It seems to be more complicated than that. Biblical texts also say that all of nature and the universe is in itself under the order of God. So even nature itself has a certain order to it.
And ofcourse there doesn't seem to be that sentiment that you can do whatever you will with nature. It's there, it's yours, but certain limitations are on it.
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