Preface: One thing is for sure: nothing remains of Pharonic dances in Khemet (ancient Egypt). Many people from many places occupied Egypt and no accurate record of ancient Egyptian dance remains in the folklore. My own research on this matter goes in an entire different direction and I will expose it more in the future.

Dances in pharaonic times - when Egypt was called Kemet - were on many occasions merely religious dances or semi-religious like celebrating the harvest.
The relief in the tomb of Ti, Saqqara (5th Dynasty) shows male dancers doing the eye of Horus or wedjat, a religious dance. Apart from other explanations usually given to this symbol, the original meaning of of the wedjat or oudjat is that we are all the divine eyes of God. Horus was being represented as a falcon, indicating the superiority of sight as the falcon has one of the sharpest views. The symbol was later found back on the dollar. The dance was performed to transmit the idea that The Supreme being can see all your actions as He looks through your own as well through your fellow beings' eyes.
Rhythms and ancient Egyptian musical instruments were totally different of what is used in nowadays oriental music. Oriental music is exactly what it says, 'music from the east' and it's origins were in may cases Ottoman where the uneven rhytms that were frequently used up to the 19th century in Egyptian music, such as 10/8 or 5/4 are also found in Turkish classical music. The turkish 'devri hindi' rhythm (in 7/8) even points out the origin in the name. Also the tone scales and melodic modes are Middle Eastern and Central Asian of origin.

Ancient egyptian music extensively used harps and other string instruments like the xalam still used in west-africa. The flute also played a prominent role in the melodic compositions of the pharaonic musicians. The flutes were longer than the ney still widely used in the middle east. The closest does this kind of flute come to an indigenous ethiopian flute up to now used by some Ethiopian tribes.

One might think that ancient egyptian dances were rather static as we contemplate on the pictures of Faraonic dances which were called HBJ in the their language. I believe that this isn't quite the case. Ancient Egypt and Abbysinia have a lot of their musical heritage in common. Sistrums are still used in the religious ceremonies (where they also do some kind of dance) in Ethiopia where the also use a big drum called kebaro. Both were used in Faraonic times. In some remote areas in Ethiopia the Faraonic flute is also found. And the habit to do butter on the head as the ancient egyptians did is still done. As there is no other way to find out how faraonic dances were done, we can only rely on wallpaintings and reliefs. But it is sure that music played an important role. Rhythms we accented by handclaps as well as different of percussion instruments. Certain dancers accompanied themselves on wooden clappers.
Faraonic times showed a variety of dances; some were very acrobatic, some solemn and some vivid. Examples depicted in temples and tombs show dancers doing cartwheels, handstands and backbends. Dances were done in groups and dancers were not only Egyptian but from other countries as well. Costumes of the performer were sometimes nothing more than a kind of leather belt containing fetishes and amulets offering protection against evil forces.

Here is another article on the topic, courtesy of Wysinger: http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafricanmusic.html

Ritual temple music was largely a matter of the rattling of the sistrum, accompanied by voice, sometimes with harp and/or percussion. Party/festival scenes show ensembles of instruments (lyres, lutes, double and single reed flutes, bone clappers, xalam, and drums). In some remote areas in Ethiopia and West Africa these instruments are still being used.

Egyptian music have changed a great deal during the last couple of millennia. There are less clues to what the music sounded like than we have to how the Egyptian language was pronounced. To get an idea of what the ancient music may have sounded like, coptic church music, and Nubian and Egyptian folk music might be helpful. It was influenced by the Nubian dancing tradition, which became very popular in Rome during the days of the empire, and is still alive in parts of the Sudan today.

Ancient Kemet choreography appears to have been complex. Dances could be mimetic, expressive - similar to modern ballet with pirouettes and the like, or gymnastic, including splits, cartwheels, and backbends.

A few pictures of acrobatic dancers have been found, generally depicting a number of dancers performing the same movement in unison.

Music was an integral part of religious worship in ancient Kemet, so it is not surprising that there were gods specifically associated with music, such as Hathor and Bes (both were also associated with dance, fertility and child birth).

Do you think the ancient Egyptians had a notation system? My friend Osaama Alsaadawi thinks the ancient Egyptians had a notion system. An Egyptologist named Hans Hickman did some studies published in German studying rural Egyptian music and modern Coptic music to try to see if any such music still survives.

In various tombs in Egypt are pictures of people playing instrument in pairs with a person using their hands. Some have argued these are really nothing more than people improvising but Han Hickman did argue these people in the tomb scenes were really signs of notation.

I think the rural Egyptians might give us some clues about how ancient Egyptian music sounded like,but understand also that many foreign influences even exist amongst the rural Egyptians. Ottoman Turk,Arabian,and even Gypsy influences are amongst the rural Egyptians in terms of music.Many of the instruments used are also of foreign origin.

The only instrument I know of that is indigenous to Egypt is a double clarinet called the zummara.

Anyway, here is a link to a dicussion that we had with my friend Ossama Alsaadawi and others:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000473.html

By the way, do any of you guys realize how some schools of thought try to relate and define Africa by the "middle east". I have this friend who tried to tell me that a particular noise "middle easterners" (Particularly Syrians and Lebonese) make with their tongue is middle eastern. I forgot the term for the sound but its common in many african populations.

Ausar is that still done in modern Egypt?

I remember reading somewhere that there was a certain special spiritual music in kemet that was said to be effective in healing scorpion stings and psychological problems.

This is interesting because these are the precise same afflictions that gnawa trance music (said to be brought to morrocco by african slaves) was traditionally purported to heal. Gnawa music even sounds like the music described above -- rattling of the sistrum, clappers, etc.

A little off-topic: My favorite piece runs more than 40 minutes. It's called "Sound Playing" and according to the liner notes, is about the Bambara, "the ancient civilization that the Gnawa have lost memory of, but they continute to sing the history of..."

I can make out the words "allah" in there a lot, and "allahu akbar" but that's about it. I'm actually hoping one day to get a translation & transliteration somewhere.

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THE HISTORY OF THE GNAWA

These Black healer musicians of Morocco called Gnawa (G'na'ua) were brought there hundreds of years ago from Sub-Sahara Africa (Ghana, Guinea, Mali, Senegal, Niger) Western Sudan, as slaves and also used as soldiers in 1591, at the time of the conquest of Mali, by the sultan of Marrakech, Ahmed El Mansur. Mulay Ismail (1672-1727) in Meknes and Mulay Abdullah (1757-1790) in Essouira did the same, later. They were all converted to Islam and formed a brotherhood. They unite under the protection of the holy marabout, Sidi Bilal, a Black slave freed by the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Sidi Bilal became the first muezzin (caller to prayer) of Islam.

The Gnawa musicians are master musicians who believe that everyone has a color and a note to which he or she vibrates. Each individual responds to his or her chosen color and note as the healer musicians play the hag'houge (guinbre), in particular. ...This music is also used to extol God and the spirits of the saints.

The Gnawa are noted for their healing ceremonies, called the Leila. ...

These healer musicians are often hired for purification ceremonies, and they are also known for their ability to treat scorpion stings and psychic disorders, mostly by the sheer power of the Gnawa rhythms.

-- from http://home.wanadoo.nl/dargnawa/SplendidMasters.htm

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I think that Lower Nubians might have a more similar music to AE because of less outside influences and the closeness and continuity of the nile valley civilization. The Coptic population is probably a good source too as the article says. But in order to get a good understanding of many issues of AE you have to examine the other african countries that surrounded AE. The keys to AE lies deep in Africa like so many recent facts and research has shown

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Only problem we are faced with is defining what ancient Egyptian music sounded like. We have no recordings from ancient Egypt,and we only got a fraction of the instruments that survive. I imagine that secular music would have varied and been much different from priestly music. Ancient Egyptians had songs for funerals,weddings,temple devotion,and just about every activity.

The modern fellahin often sing while working in the field much like the call and responce of most African people.

During funerals in rural parts of Upper Egypt you often see women let out these songs that nobody understand the words to. Many believe these songs are spoken in pure ancient Egyptian dialect.

here is an example:

Asking her about Pharaonic music which she had come to know much about, living such a long period of time in Luxor, she comments: "Pharaonic music, as transcribed, was only dancing or clapping, or just an expression of singing. It was also instrumental, but no form of ritual music was ever portrayed. You can tell this by the throats drawn on their paintings and engravings. But the tunes are lost. We have never heard and will never hear Pharaonic tunes. There are no scores except in Upper Egyptian funerals, where you hear women singing the lamentation or the Ta'did, lamenting the deceased, and they sang it in a language that I did not know. It wasn't Arabic; it was some syllables and words that came from the past. What past? We don't know. That was the heritage coming from ancient Egyptian and which has not died. I have some recordings of it." Intrigued by her explanation, I concluded then that if lamenting or Ta'did was the theme of Pharaonic tunes, then the Pharaohs must have been always sad! Martha explained knowledgeably: "No, not sad, because to them music was neither sad nor glad. It was not an expression of the emotions. It was an expression of their appreciation of the deceased. They did not think anything about the music; whether happy or not. It was what the music said that was important. Death in itself did not have to be a sad event. The loss and separation only caused sadness, but death in itself was not; they believed in incarnation."
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/475/profile.htm

I agree with you about Nubian music,and its also a source to reserch in understanding more about the ancient Egyptian music. Definately Nile Valley music would have reflected the styles of the countries it surrounded.

Many of the hymns inscribed on the wall were meant to sing. One of the most famous Hymn called Hymn to Aten was meant to be sung. Along with others.

However, you also have to understand that many of the musical instruments in ancient Egypt were of foreign origin. During the Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom Egyptian music probably absorbed some Asiatic elements. There are pictures of harps being played by Bedouins in the tomb of Beni Hassan.

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By the way, do any of you guys realize how some schools of thought try to relate and define Africa by the "middle east". I have this friend who tried to tell me that a particular noise "middle easterners" (Particularly Syrians and Lebonese) make with their tongue is middle eastern. I forgot the term for the sound but its common in many african populations.

Ausar is that still done in modern Egypt?

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I know of the action that people across the so-called Middle East do with their tongue. Usually this is done by bedouins during joyous occasions like weddings. I haven't seen too many people in Egypt do this but I have seen it amongst the Bedouin tribes that live in some parts of Middle Egypt. It seems to me perhaps a bedouin trait.

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Do you think the ancient Egyptians had a notation system? My friend Osaama Alsaadawi thinks the ancient Egyptians had a notion system. An Egyptologist named Hans Hickman did some studies published in German studying rural Egyptian music and modern Coptic music to try to see if any such music still survives.

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I don't really know Ausar, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did!

Herodotus himself said the Egyptian were "a very rythmic people" and referred to how they were so much into dance and music. He even notes their custom of hand-clapping during performances. Such a custom is widespread in Africa, especially in North and East Africa. I've seen web-footage of Beja nomads clapping to the beats of their tribal music and their musical traditions seem to be closer to those of the AE.

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Only problem we are faced with is defining what ancient Egyptian music sounded like. We have no recordings from ancient Egypt,and we only got a fraction of the instruments that survive. I imagine that secular music would have varied and been much different from priestly music. Ancient Egyptians had songs for funerals,weddings,temple devotion,and just about every activity.

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As I understand it, what went on inside the temples was only known to the priests, pharoah, and other high officials. So although secular music would be more well known, the problem is that it got very influenced by foreigners.

I agree with Keins that Nubian music is more authentic, since it recieved little foreign influence.

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The modern fellahin often sing while working in the field much like the call and responce of most African people.

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Yes, I've seen this alot!

Another thing I want to learn more about are the dances. From what can be made out from tomb paintings, dances varied from simple easy going steps and movements to wild acrobatic and perhaps more complex movements, like those seen in other African cultures. I've seen the paintings of the dancing girls doing flips and others of what appear to be girls leaning down then going back up again. I often wonder if such dances correlate with those of the Beja or other peoples in Ethiopia with the up and down torso and shoulder movements like they were doing the 'bounce'. LOL

Many of the hymns inscribed on the wall were meant to sing. One of the most famous Hymn called Hymn to Aten was meant to be sung. Along with others.

However, you also have to understand that many of the musical instruments in ancient Egypt were of foreign origin. During the Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom Egyptian music probably absorbed some Asiatic elements. There are pictures of harps being played by Bedouins in the tomb of Beni Hassan.

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I understand what you are saying. I know that AE music (as all music) was not static. It evolved and incoporated different elements of various influences from foreigners. So we will have to conceptualize and understand AE music in terms of time period. My conjecture is that the very earliest of AE music (pre-dynastic) would be very close to ancient lower nubian music and probably have some similarities with today's music in sudan. Today Sudan has a pretty good Arab influence and that has diluted and altered the original music before the arab influx.

Not really sure what instruments have been found in pre-dyanstic Egypt. The Sistra used in ancient Egypt came from attaching papyrus stalks together on a rattle. The Sistra is still used in the Ethiopian Tawedo[Ethiopian Orthodox Church]. Most instruments in ancient Egypt have been found during the dyanstic era.

The foreign influence in ancient Egyptian music mostly came around the Middle and New Kingdom period. During this time Egyptians had more contact with Western Asian groups. This is why I mentioned a picture of a lyre being played by a bedouin in the tomb of Beni Hassan. You also see Asiatics playing certain instruments.

Most of it was through trade but probably also Asiatic immigrants settling in parts of Lower Egypt and around Men-nefer[Memphis] Many of them settled there as economic immigrants,captives,or craftsmen.

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Originally posted by ausar:

During funerals in rural parts of Upper Egypt you often see women let out these songs that nobody understand the words to. Many believe these songs are spoken in pure ancient Egyptian dialect.

here is an example:

Asking her about Pharaonic music which she had come to know much about, living such a long period of time in Luxor, she comments: "Pharaonic music, as transcribed, was only dancing or clapping, or just an expression of singing. It was also instrumental, but no form of ritual music was ever portrayed. You can tell this by the throats drawn on their paintings and engravings. But the tunes are lost. We have never heard and will never hear Pharaonic tunes. There are no scores except in Upper Egyptian funerals, where you hear women singing the lamentation or the Ta'did, lamenting the deceased, and they sang it in a language that I did not know. It wasn't Arabic; it was some syllables and words that came from the past. What past? We don't know. That was the heritage coming from ancient Egyptian and which has not died. I have some recordings of it." Intrigued by her explanation, I concluded then that if lamenting or Ta'did was the theme of Pharaonic tunes, then the Pharaohs must have been always sad! Martha explained knowledgeably: "No, not sad, because to them music was neither sad nor glad. It was not an expression of the emotions. It was an expression of their appreciation of the deceased. They did not think anything about the music; whether happy or not. It was what the music said that was important. Death in itself did not have to be a sad event. The loss and separation only caused sadness, but death in itself was not; they believed in incarnation."

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What indigenous instruments besides the Sistra are still found in Ethiopia? Have not investigated this further but there could be a connection through common origin or trade. Some instruments that the ancient Egyptians borrowed like the lute was modified into its own form,and you know it in Arabic as al-Oud[the Wood] which would become the guitar.

As far as dances indigenous to Egypt are very few. I know of a martial art type dance that is done with naboot[long shaft like sticks] called Tahtib. Tahtib was used by the ancient Egyptians to train soliders to fight. This survives today in rural parts of Egypt. The dance is dying off because most people in modern rural Egypt in Upper Egypt solve conflicts with guns instead of naboots in the modern era.

Kovert, I don't know if the funeral laments are song in Coptic but it certainly is not Arabic. Lots of the songs of the Fellahin survive in their original Coptic form insteade of Arabic. Could be a key indication of a more ancient origin for these songs.

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What indigenous instruments besides the Sistra are still found in Ethiopia?

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Ancient Egypt and Abbysinia have a lot of their musical heritage in common. Sistrums are still used in the religious ceremonies (where they also do some kind of dance) in Ethiopia where the also use a big drum called kebaro. Both were used in Faraonic times. In some remote areas in Ethiopia the Faraonic flute is also found. And the habit to do butter on the head as the ancient egyptians did is still done.

The only instrument I know that survives from antiquity is the zummara. A type of reed clarinet still used in Egyptian folk music.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Djehuti, scroll up and read the post that I posted before your posts about pharaonic instruments in modern Ethiopia. I mentioned a type of martial art dance called tahtib that definately has a pharaonic origin.

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I meant other than the tahtib dance!

it covers a lot of information this i mean a lot!!!

his basic premise is this...

the ancients egyptian practises are pretty much alive and well in egypt but they r under the veil of islam

he speaks of the traditions of the baladi [indigenous egyptians]being those of the ancients including music

he links the music with the calendar and language as well

lots of good stuff to me