When discussing the civilisations of the Nile Valley, many histories focus almost exclusively on the role of Egypt.
But this approach ignores the emergence further south on the Nile of the kingdom known to the Egyptians as Kush, in the region called Nubia - the area now covered by southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.
The relationship between Egypt and Kush was a complex one, which changed depending on the political and economic climate of the time.
"Nubia was the meeting place of the Mediterranean and African civilisation. The relationship between Egypt and upper Nubia was completely different from time to time and period to period. If the Egyptian king's power is widespread it catches everything under its control and Nubia comes under Egyptian authority, but if it is weak, then upper Nubia is ruled by itself." Osama Abdel Meguid, Director of the Nubian Museum in Aswan.
KERMA AND NAPATA The Kushites were first based in Kerma, and then at Napata - both towns in what is now northern Sudan.
Kerma was an advanced society and archaeological evidence shows that ceramics were being produced by 8,000 BC - earlier than in Egypt. By about 1700 BC, the town had grown into a town of 10,000 people with a complex hierarchical society.
Egypt could not ignore its southern neighbour although its interest was predominantly economic. Nubia was rich with minerals such as stones needed for the building of temples and tombs, and gold, needed for jewelry. Indeed Kush was one of the major gold producers of the ancient world.
At one stage Nubia, was occupied by Egypt for about 500 years and then the tables turned. From around 850 BC, the Egyptian state fell into such decline that what became known as the twenty-fifth dynasty rose in Nubia, with authority over all of Egypt.
This dynasty based at Napata was known as the 'Ethiopian' dynasty. Although it was heavily influenced by Egyptian culture and religion, it was in many ways the first great African power.
"They dealt like Egyptians, they dressed like Egyptians, but they were still proud of their black faces." Osama Abdel Meguid, Director of the Nubian Museum in Aswan.
In 713 BC King Shabaka came to power in Kush and brought the Nile Valley as far as the Delta under his control. The name of one of his successors, King Taharqa, is found on inscriptions throughout the Valley.
MOVING TO MEROE The dynasty ended following a military defeat at the hands of the Assyrians and in about 600 BC the capital of the Kushite kingdom was moved from Napata to Meroe, further south along the Nile.
Listen to a dramatisation of Greek geographer Strabo's description of Meroe
This, symbolically, was a move closer to black Africa, and the kingdom that grew up around Meroe was one that very much reflected African influences. The Meroites have been given much less historical attention than the Egyptians but in many ways it was a kingdom that rivaled Egypt in material wealth and distinctive cultural development.
"From the graves and from the images painted on tombs we can see that people looked much more African than Mediterranean. The jewelry is really of an African nature - like anklets, bracelets, ear studs and earrings - and you can still find the style of the jewelry used by the Meroites on tribes of the savannah belt south of Khartoum." Dr Salah el-Din Muhammed Ahmed, Director of Fieldwork at the National Museum in Khartoum.
Listen to Dr Salah El-Din Muhammed Ahmed, Director of Fieldwork at the National Museum, Khartoum, describing Meroite features as African
Meroe was a complex, advanced and politically stable society. It relied on elected kingship with elaborate coronation ceremonies in which the Queen mother played an important role. Excavations of the large ancient city have revealed palaces, royal baths and temples.
EXPANDING KINGDOMS Meroe's wealth was partly based on trade and commerce, particularly after the Second Century when the camel was introduced to Africa and there was a flourishing of caravan routes across the continent. Its position gave Meroe strategic access to trading outlets on the Red Sea. Pottery, jewelry and woven cloth were all produced to a high standard of craftsmanship.
The kingdom also had the resources needed for the smelting of iron: ore, water from the Nile and wood from acacia trees to make charcoal. Iron gave the Meroites spears, arrows axes and hoes, allowing them to develop a mixed farming economy to exploit to the full the tropical summer rainfall.
Although influenced by the Egyptian state gods, such as Amun, Meroe developed its own forms of religious worship. The most important regional deity was the Lion God, Apedemek - often portrayed with a lion's head on a human body.
As Meroe became more distanced from Egypt, so too was the Egyptian language replaced as the spoken language of the court. Instead a Meroitic alphabet and script were introduced, which to this day researchers have been unable to decipher.
The Kingdom of Meroe began to fade as a power by the first or second century AD, sapped by war with Roman Egypt and the decline of its traditional industries. The iron industry had used up huge quantities of charcoal leading to deforestation and the land began to lose its fertility.
In around 350 AD, an army led by Ezana, King of the growing kingdom of Axum in what is now Ethiopia, invaded Meroe - but by then Meroites had already dispersed, replaced by a people described by the Axumites as Noba.
posted
The ruling elite in Sudan are Arabized Nubians, they are not ethnically Arab and very little of them speak Nubian anymore.
The ones in Darfur killing non arabized blacks, we call them janjaweed are also arabized Nubians.
The Nubians have black faces but their hair is curly, some of their women have soft hair and they are not jet black.
All Nubians of lower Nubia and upper Nubia have been totally arabized except few pockets and between old people.
Actually in Sudan this 40% Arabs, include Nubians who had mixed with Arabs. There is no pure Arabs in Sudan except 5%, and that 40% is nopt going lower, because all refugees are added up in Sudan population, including the ones outside the Sudan.
Iam partly Nubian and I am not ashamed of it but proud.
quote:The Nubians have black faces but their hair is curly, some of their women have soft hair and they are not jet black.
Yes, but as we have pointed out so many times, this does not mean they are not pure black because many pure blacks have these features!
quote:The ones in Darfur killing non arabized blacks, we call them janjaweed are also arabized Nubians.
Yes, I have heard and seen too much about what these scum of the earth have done! They don't even care if the people they kill are Muslims, only that they are not "Arabized"! They rape women, young girls, and even boys. They mutilate, burn, and torture their victims, even if they are women and children!! They do not deserve to be called Muslims, let alone human beings!! I may not be Muslim but I dare say that Allah will punish them for their atrocities!
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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But don't know that Nubians are one of the most snobbish people in Earth and if they get strong they think of invading their neighbours.
You know why they are killing the blacks in Darfur, not simply because they are not arabized because they are not as good as the Nubians and therefore 2ndclass citizens, same with the Southerners if you are not a Nubian, your blood is cheap
And they are very bitter from the Egyptians and this ometimes cause me problem because of my Egyptian background.
This are the ruling elite of the Sudan. Most of the Egyptian are the commercial class of Khartoum-Sudan, but the nubians control politics and the army. Now lately they have weakened the egyptian Sudanese grip on business termendously
quote:AMR1: The ruling elite in Sudan are Arabized Nubians, they are not ethnically Arab and very little of them speak Nubian anymore.
AMR1, what exactly are 'ethnic' Arabs? Much of the people around the world, who call themselves Arabs, have been "Arabized", and so, where does that lead us?
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: You know why they are killing the blacks in Darfur, not simply because they are not arabized because they are not as good as the Nubians and therefore 2ndclass citizens, same with the Southerners if you are not a Nubian, your blood is cheap
When you use this word "Nubian", are you simply referring to it, in its more recent sense, or the historic one?
posted
Like Egypt, Nubia goes through changes, they are connected to Egypt in many sense.
when Egypt turned from brown to white through history. Nubia turned from black to brown.
There is no Nubians outside the region of Kosto -Aswan, black darfurians and southerners are not Nubians. But those were the areas were Nubians get their slaves from to sell to Egypt and others.
The Arabized North Sudanese are the decendants of Nubians, and still they speak the Nubian labguages in some villages of theirs. They are about 24 million people in North Sudan. North Sudan is about 30 million people.
People like the Nuba people are not the only Nubians but also decendants of Nubains who married african tribes in those mountains in Central Sudan after they moved to it from upper Nubia. They are about 750 thousand people. Places
posted
the romans said the nubians had kinky hair dummy.i am talking about the nubians of ancient times and medievial times can't you read the topic? stop changing what they were most nubians are like that still today.what the hell is curly hair? some nubians have hair like white folks today,because you know why? some have some form of mixture. the nubians you say are brown in looks are the mixed ones not the black looking ones and most nubians today are still black looking dummy.the brown looking nubian is still black too.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 16 June 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Like Egypt, Nubia goes through changes, they are connected to Egypt in many sense.
when Egypt turned from brown to white through history. Nubia turned from black to brown.
There is no Nubians outside the region of Kosto -Aswan, black darfurians and southerners are not Nubians. But those were the areas were Nubians get their slaves from to sell to Egypt and others.
The Arabized North Sudanese are the decendants of Nubians, and still they speak the Nubian labguages in some villages of theirs. They are about 24 million people in North Sudan. North Sudan is about 30 million people.
People like the Nuba people are not the only Nubians but also decendants of Nubains who married african tribes in those mountains in Central Sudan after they moved to it from upper Nubia. They are about 750 thousand people. Places
nubians live from aswan all the way down to the blue nile and some live in the noba hills.are you stupid or something.i just said in a post awhile ago there were hill nubians in the noba hills.
the arabs in the sudan are not nubians anymore so stop say they are.it is up to them to change there ethnic makeup back not you. the arabized nubians of today are still nubians the the arabs in the sudan. not all nubians are arabized by the way.there are about two million nubians you still have much of there nubian culture and are first nubians speakers.
you could say there are two tyes of arabized nubians to make it simple for you,most of the arabs of the sudan and then the other arazed nubians who still admit they are nubians. the other nubians are nubian much more in culture so stop saying they are arabized.of course they now arabic because they live in the sudan bu that does not mean they are arabized or extreme arabized like the black arabs.
by the way which is it 30 million in north sudan or 24 million?you can't even make up you mind in tyour own post.first of all there are not 30 million folks in northern sudan it would be closer to 24 million,there are about 6 million folks in west sudan and let's not forget about 3 to 4 million outside of the sudan that is coming back.so sudan should be around really 46 million something if they come back this year. arabs are not 40%,they are more like 39% but since the african population is growing faster than the arab % should lower and more lower when the census comes out again when more africans come back.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 16 June 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: The ruling elite in Sudan are Arabized Nubians, they are not ethnically Arab and very little of them speak Nubian anymore.
The ones in Darfur killing non arabized blacks, we call them janjaweed are also arabized Nubians.
The Nubians have black faces but their hair is curly, some of their women have soft hair and they are not jet black.
All Nubians of lower Nubia and upper Nubia have been totally arabized except few pockets and between old people.
Actually in Sudan this 40% Arabs, include Nubians who had mixed with Arabs. There is no pure Arabs in Sudan except 5%, and that 40% is nopt going lower, because all refugees are added up in Sudan population, including the ones outside the Sudan.
Iam partly Nubian and I am not ashamed of it but proud.
Regards,
i think from your self hating view point you think curly hair means hair that is straight like but curly.that happens because of mixture but not all the times. the curly hair i am thinking about is the one that is still not like that, but kinky or woolly(same thing) is what i am thinking about when i mean curly.most of the blacks have that hair type.in your sick mind kinky always means nappy and that is not so.woolly or kinky hair could be soft too.take care of it and most hair could be soft enough regardless of race.
let me make it simple, the kinky hair most nubians still have is the hair you see west africans and central africans have on average okay? so if you could have a afro than you hair is kinky.heck alot of modern day ethiopians have afro's or curly kinky hair. so stop the non-sense.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 17 June 2005).]
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 17 June 2005).]
posted
BY THE WAY woolly hair and kinky means curly hair, dummy.when you mean curly you mean more close to straight you self hater and curly could be any of those things.the nubians past and present have a type of curly hair that is called woolly hair like most blacks on earth.a few have straight hair because some have some form of mixture but most still have curly hair and i mean woolly hair in this context.so amr1 you do not know what you are talking about.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 17 June 2005).]
posted
There is 40 million Sudanese, including Sudanese outside Sudan.
There is no 46 million Sudanse.
THE ONES WHO CALL THMSELVES ARABS IN SUDAN, NUBIANS, THEY ARE INFACT ARABIZED NUBIANS.
The prove is that, they speak it in their villages, no one else in southern sudan or darfur speak nubian. Neither do the people in nuba hills speak nubian, although they are partly nubian. So those arabized Nubians are the only Nubians besides the ones in Egypt.
Nubians can call themselves arabs or arabized or anything they want
Regards,
[This message has been edited by AMR1 (edited 16 June 2005).]
posted
I want to tell you some history first, and a fact, which you will find it in a book, called Bibliography of Anglo Egyptian Sudan, by George ayoub balamoun, a Copt and does not care very much about religion.
Well,
Sudan until 632 AD was very much influential with Egypt and its people consider themselves Egyptian. I am talking about North Sudan.
Than came the Arabs, they made a deal with a Nubian King that disconnected North Sudan friom its sister Egypt a relation of 5000 years. Egypt became Muslim and North Sudan Nubia continued Christian.
Until 632 AD, Nubia a civilization created by "old" Egyptians, the Asiatic African people of ancient Egypt and Neolithic black tribes, TRIBES like the Dinka, not the Dinka making the Nubian race or North Sudanese, started to change. (That is why Dinka claiming it as their history, although they should check inheritance law first, where nephews who look like their uncle does not make them the legitimate inheritors).
Like I said Nubia was disconnected from Egypt in 632 AD, but its western frontiers was open to another group, the West Africans who kept on coming for 1200 years and until 1956. Ali Alhag family came to Sudan in the 1920's from West Africa. The West Africans brought to us a treasure, Islam. Yes West Africans were converted to Islam before North Sudan. Also in the same tribes some Arabized people from North Africa and other parts of the Middle East infiltrated into North Sudan.
In 1820 the Egyptians alerted FOR THE FIRST TIME that the Nile does not come all from Ethiopia, and some come from Uganda, invaded the Sudan and Uganda.
Those brought new Egyptians into the Sudan, their descendants are the one they call themselves Arabs, mixed with Moroccans and others from North Africa who infiltrated North Sudan and mixed with the Nubians of North Sudan, plus some tribes like alrashida.
The Sudan could be divided into these groups
Arabs tribes like alrashida and others 5%
Mawleiden mixed of Nubians, and new Egyptian who came after 1820, 5%, who are Arabized people. I belong to this group.
30% Awlad AL BALAD, THE RULING ELITE mixed of Nubians (ANCIENT BLACK TRIBES AND ANCIENT EGYPTIANS), and the Arabized tribes who infiltrated from north Africa between 632 AD - 1820 and have mixed with West Africans, ALSO ARABIZED people The above 3 groups are called the Arabs of Sudan.
Than come
Fourth group, the non Arabized Nubians of all the rest of North Sudan, including Darfur, the Beja and other Central Sudanese tribes, who have mixed with West Africans and became mostly Muslims. Only pockets like the Nuba Mountains or the Ingessanah have not mixed with the West Africans, yet largely Muslims. Those are 40% of Sudan
5th group, mostly non-Muslims, non-Arabized, non-Nubians, non West Africans living in the South, those are 20%.
--------------------------------------
What I am trying to say that category 3 although Arabized and partly ethnically old Egyptian with new middle eastern blood from north Africa and other parts of the near east, with category 4 which are not Arabized influence Sudan politics and culture for over 1200 years and especially after independence in 1956.
This culture is very much west African; they don't like Egypt and will not say anything good about Egypt, regardless.
I think that attitude is foolish, especially when we see the danger from non-Muslim super powers like America. I think all Muslims should stand together, instead of nagging about Egypt, or Egyptians looking down at Sudanese with West Africans background, not the Sudan they used to know before 632 AD.
I mean with New Egyptians, OLD EGYPTIANS MIXED WITH FOREIGN INFLUXES FROM EUROPE MAINLY AND THE NEAR EAST. RESULT ARE PRESENT LIGHTER SKIN EGYPTIANS
What I am saying also is that the 40% so called Arabs, are not arab by blood, but mostly by arabization and most probably any light skin is due to North African and Syrians who settled in the Sudan.
Another wrong info is that thousands of Turks lived in the Sudan between 1820-1885. Turkey ruled the Sudan by having its Egyptian soldeirs who belonged to the Ottomans invade the Sudan. Any ottoman Egyptian officer was called by locals, a turk.
posted
that is what taharqa would like like you fool
what do mean afro-centric painting of him.he was nubian dummy.look at the lion statue.you are trying to make him of mixed race and he was not.you are such a self hating wimp.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: There is 40 million Sudanese, including Sudanese outside Sudan.
There is no 46 million Sudanse.
THE ONES WHO CALL THMSELVES ARABS IN SUDAN, NUBIANS, THEY ARE INFACT ARABIZED NUBIANS.
but they call themselves arabs,so it does not count anymore they do not call themselves nubians. just like the latinos do not call themselves mayans you thick head fool.
The prove is that, they speak it in their villages, no one else in southern sudan or darfur speak nubian. Neither do the people in nuba hills speak nubian, although they are partly nubian. So those arabized Nubians are the only Nubians besides the ones in Egypt.
Nubians can call themselves arabs or arabized or anything they want
Regards,
[This message has been edited by AMR1 (edited 16 June 2005).]
hills nubians in the noba hills speak nubian stupid. nubians are nubians fool.
i did not say sudan was 46 million it is around 42 million by now since it grows about 1.5 million a year,damn you are dumb.
there are about 3 to 4 million sudanese outside of sudan and when they come back and some are it will be up to 46 million before the year is over if all of them come back by this year.REAAAAD.
TAHARQA was a dark skin black man with woolly hair, and flat nose.he was negriod.nubians are negriod(black) he look like your average black man.that is to damn bad if you do not like those facts.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 16 June 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: I want to tell you some history first, and a fact, which you will find it in a book, called Bibliography of Anglo Egyptian Sudan, by George ayoub balamoun, a Copt and does not care very much about religion.
Well,
Sudan until 632 AD was very much influential with Egypt and its people consider themselves Egyptian. I am talking about North Sudan.
Than came the Arabs, they made a deal with a Nubian King that disconnected North Sudan friom its sister Egypt a relation of 5000 years. Egypt became Muslim and North Sudan Nubia continued Christian.
Until 632 AD, Nubia a civilization created by "old" Egyptians, the Asiatic African people of ancient Egypt and Neolithic black tribes, TRIBES like the Dinka, not the Dinka making the Nubian race or North Sudanese, started to change. (That is why Dinka claiming it as their history, although they should check inheritance law first, where nephews who look like their uncle does not make them the legitimate inheritors).
Like I said Nubia was disconnected from Egypt in 632 AD, but its western frontiers was open to another group, the West Africans who kept on coming for 1200 years and until 1956. Ali Alhag family came to Sudan in the 1920's from West Africa. The West Africans brought to us a treasure, Islam. Yes West Africans were converted to Islam before North Sudan. Also in the same tribes some Arabized people from North Africa and other parts of the Middle East infiltrated into North Sudan.
In 1820 the Egyptians alerted FOR THE FIRST TIME that the Nile does not come all from Ethiopia, and some come from Uganda, invaded the Sudan and Uganda.
Those brought new Egyptians into the Sudan, their descendants are the one they call themselves Arabs, mixed with Moroccans and others from North Africa who infiltrated North Sudan and mixed with the Nubians of North Sudan, plus some tribes like alrashida.
The Sudan could be divided into these groups
Arabs tribes like alrashida and others 5%
Mawleiden mixed of Nubians, and new Egyptian who came after 1820, 5%, who are Arabized people. I belong to this group.
30% Awlad AL BALAD, THE RULING ELITE mixed of Nubians (ANCIENT BLACK TRIBES AND ANCIENT EGYPTIANS), and the Arabized tribes who infiltrated from north Africa between 632 AD - 1820 and have mixed with West Africans, ALSO ARABIZED people The above 3 groups are called the Arabs of Sudan.
Than come
Fourth group, the non Arabized Nubians of all the rest of North Sudan, including Darfur, the Beja and other Central Sudanese tribes, who have mixed with West Africans and became mostly Muslims. Only pockets like the Nuba Mountains or the Ingessanah have not mixed with the West Africans, yet largely Muslims. Those are 40% of Sudan
5th group, mostly non-Muslims, non-Arabized, non-Nubians, non West Africans living in the South, those are 20%.
nubia was created by nubians not egyptians stupid,stop making crap up.
it seems you are making you own history up and there is not a need to do it because it is already written so stop putting your own word to it because you are changing the facts when you do it.show some proof when you talk.
do you get history from a arabic false point of view because that is the way it seems. not all nubians mixed with outsiders that is what i keep telling you dumb ass.most nubians in the sudan are arabized but there is a large number that is not and the ones who have become arabized are two types-one are the arabs and the other are still nubians but just speak mostly arabic first but still have more of a nubian culture than the arabs.the arabized nubian nubians are mostly unmixed nubians with and most have no arab background.those nubians accepted some areas of arab culture to protect themselves from the constant raids just like some africans accepted islam to protect themselves but that does not mean that are part arab or have some form of arab background.some africans only accepted islam when the west controlled most of thier states,so that was late in history.
arabs are not 40% in the sudan,you wish it was more but it is not so.
nubians never consider themselves egyptian they had there own states in nubia and were proud nubians.asian egyptians?what about the african ones? the egyptians were mostly african not asian.
this is an example of the school system that you go to.it is screwed up and you make up stuff. your comments or many of them are wrong by the way , bashir looks like a black man,so of course he would look like any black racially speaking not just taharqa,so you have it the other way around taharqa does not look like bashir,bashir looks more like taharqa,but only racially,taharqa was darker and had a wider nose and broader round face. by the way he would have negroid features like flat nose, dark skin and woolly hair so stop making a fake history. some nubians still have the old nubians faith by the way and many mixed it into the new ones.if you know anything about african history you would know that.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 16 June 2005).]
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 17 June 2005).]
these statues are taharqa and it looks like the drawing are you blind?it has a flat nose dark skin ,really dark and woolly hair. the statues are real and they are not some afro-centric drawing. nubians in features are negriod like that but vary,and most are like that today racially i mean and i have seen them with my own eyes.
you know what you must be that racist abaza or that other guy since they have not wrote in awhile.i think all three of you are the same and you are not black ,you are a arab that is not black and a racist arab at that.
the link you gave us is a example of what i have been saying.you do not even read or look at you own works take alook at taharqa inside your link,he has a round face and flat nose and looks just almost like that drawing are you blind?
get off this forum and goggle your mouth with razor blades.
look at you link and look at the drawing and theother links i have above -the features look like the drawing.the statues if you look at them carefully have taharaq with thicker lips and a wider nose so you just made my point fool.
all the statues come from the same place it shows the statues you have in the link too in one link i posted take a look at the other picture not just the drawing dummy.they all look clearly negriod(black) and there is nothing mixed raced about them.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 16 June 2005).]
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 17 June 2005).]
posted
nubians live in nubia,some live in west sudan,noba hills and a few in sudan and other places and some in egypt.look at the topic called hill nubians.hill nubians are nubians too and i am not talking about the noba, get it dummy?
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 16 June 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, I have heard and seen too much about what these scum of the earth have done! They don't even care if the people they kill are Muslims, only that they are not "Arabized"! They rape women, young girls, and even boys. They mutilate, burn, and torture their victims, even if they are women and children!! They do not deserve to be called Muslims, let alone human beings!! I may not be Muslim but I dare say that Allah will punish them for their atrocities!
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