posted
amr1 you need to read some books on the late period of nubia for a change.
yes there were arabs that moved into lower nubia and upper nubia and those regions in late medieval times became mostly of mixed folks so that's true and that change abit later until modern times so it was a back in forth thing only starting in the late medieval period but first starting in lower nubia,but southern nubia remain unmixed in medieval times until modern times.many of the mixed types became arabs and some nubians(mixed nubians still call themselves blacks if they look black or not).
some nubians had only some mixture and many others until today are unmixed since most nubians married other nubians in their family and some married southern sudanese,that's a fact since southern nubia was closer to the southern sudan.
keep in mind that southern nubia is where most nubians lived at so it was the largest in population so most of nubia over all were not mixed raced folks(blacks or browns)
most of nubia still had darkskin black folks even until today,so i agree with you amr1 until a certain point but many times you just get carried away and do not have all the facts and just shoot off from the lips and a good topic just goes downhill.so please try to keep it together that's all.
I agree with you that in upper and lower nubia there were some mixing with arabs but in only became widespread after the 1200 'S a.d. when a new fresh wave of arabs from arabia THAT came in and new arabs THAT came in from egypt in the 1200's a.d.
That is why makuria fell later in 1376. the royal family in that kingdom started to marry arab women only in the 1300's late in upper nubian history,so in other words upper nubia remain strong against the arabs until that period.
Alwa was a different story. they had better defenses,(MORE WALLED PROTECTION against the arabS and was much stronger than their sister kingdom and remain a purly black kingdom until 1504.
(with more effective wall protection and stronger army it was hard for anyone to get in,alwa was much more aware for a stronger defence something egypt and the rest of nubia did not learn as well against the arab nomads)
arabs and others lived there but came in much later since it was further south and more isloted than upper and lower nubia and had the more of the sole goal to keep nubian civilization alive.nubian culture was still alive by the way in other areas of nubia too but it remain stronger in medieval and early modern times.outsiders lived in there own areas in southern nubia and intermarriages were small and was a thing that a few of the lowerclasses did,not the masses and royal family.
you are right on this point to say that new fresh waves of africans from the west and south came into upper and lower nubia but southern nubians from the funj kingdom came in as well,and unmixed nubian populations already in upper nubia were growing again.
so we could agree only to a certain point but after that things must be clear and facts must come in and you did not have all the facts just some of it.
please read some books on the late nubian period.it will do you some good.
okay?okay.
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Below are the details of your selected publication. Use your back button to return to the previous page.
Soba - Archaeological research at the medieval captial on the Blue Nile.
Author: Welsby D et al
ISBN: 1872566022
Period: Medieval History and Archaeology
Our price: £20.00 ($37.78 / €29.17)
British Institute in Eastern Africa - Memoir Number 12 1991 363pp 190 figs 54 b/w pls cloth DJ
Summary:
Soba was described by Arab writers of the ninth century as the rich and prosperous capital of the kingdom of Alwa, a kingdom converted to Christianity in AD 580 by the Byzantine missionary Longinus, and which flourished for over 700 years. They noted the magnificence of the city and the Alwan kings, who surpassed in power and wealth the kings of the much better known state of Makuria to the north. Small scale excavations at Soba prior to 1981 had, however, revealed little to support the claims of these medieval sources. This report records the results of the survey and excavation conducted by the British Institute in Eastern Africa from 1981 until 1986, a campaign which transformed our perception of Soba. Here is a detailed description of the buildings located, as well as sections by a number of specialists on the small finds, pottery, textiles, cordage, glassware, painted wall-plaster, inscriptions, ostraca, graffiti and palaeobotanical remains.
Welsby D et al - Soba - Archaeological research at the medieval captial on the Blue Nile. 1872566022
Nubia is the region between Aswan and Kosti in Sudan. This people like the Egyptians have mixed primarily with Egyptians who had been intermarrying many other races in the last 1000 years. So they have been like in Egypt, lightened.
No one speak some Nubian words up to this day, except this people in the region of Aswan-Kosti
The only Nubian decendants who have been blackened are the people of the Nuba mountains, they are only 5% of the total decendants of Nubians.
THey have mixed with Jet black Southerners in those mountains, creating the present people of teh Nuba.
Southern Sudanese and Black Darfurians has nothing with Nubia, no culture, or language nothing.
Mohamad ali in 1820, king of EGYPT IS THE ONE WHO ADDED sOUTHERN sUDAN , DARFUR AND UGANDA TO NUBIA/North Sudan and p[arts of Abyssinia, so he will have full control of teh Nile valley.
Before that we Nubians besides going to Southern Sudan and Darfur for slaves to sell them to Egypt and to teh Middl East, we had no national affiliations or history with them. This is the ugly truth for me and you.
Regards,
[This message has been edited by AMR1 (edited 22 June 2005).]
posted
wrong again,you just don't get it do you? nubins today are still mostly dark skin,jet black are dark brown they are still black. now the arabs that you call brown are now the majority in northern sudan but even they are dark mostly and racially are black,most of them any and not brown. read the damn post again.
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: amr1 you need to read some books on the late period of nubia for a change.
yes there were arabs that moved into lower nubia and upper nubia and those regions in late medieval times became mostly of mixed folks so that's true and that change abit later until modern times so it was a back in forth thing only starting in the late medieval period but first starting in lower nubia,but southern nubia remain unmixed in medieval times until modern times.many of the mixed types became arabs and some nubians(mixed nubians still call themselves blacks if they look black or not).
some nubians had only some mixture and many others until today are unmixed since most nubians married other nubians in their family and some married southern sudanese,that's a fact since southern nubia was closer to the southern sudan.
keep in mind that southern nubia is where most nubians lived at so it was the largest in population so most of nubia over all were not mixed raced folks(blacks or browns)
most of nubia still had darkskin black folks even until today,so i agree with you amr1 until a certain point but many times you just get carried away and do not have all the facts and just shoot off from the lips and a good topic just goes downhill.so please try to keep it together that's all.
I agree with you that in upper and lower nubia there were some mixing with arabs but in only became widespread after the 1200 'S a.d. when a new fresh wave of arabs from arabia THAT came in and new arabs THAT came in from egypt in the 1200's a.d.
That is why makuria fell later in 1376. the royal family in that kingdom started to marry arab women only in the 1300's late in upper nubian history,so in other words upper nubia remain strong against the arabs until that period.
Alwa was a different story. they had better defenses,(MORE WALLED PROTECTION against the arabS and was much stronger than their sister kingdom and remain a purly black kingdom until 1504.
(with more effective wall protection and stronger army it was hard for anyone to get in,alwa was much more aware for a stronger defence something egypt and the rest of nubia did not learn as well against the arab nomads)
arabs and others lived there but came in much later since it was further south and more isloted than upper and lower nubia and had the more of the sole goal to keep nubian civilization alive.nubian culture was still alive by the way in other areas of nubia too but it remain stronger in medieval and early modern times.outsiders lived in there own areas in southern nubia and intermarriages were small and was a thing that a few of the lowerclasses did,not the masses and royal family.
you are right on this point to say that new fresh waves of africans from the west and south came into upper and lower nubia but southern nubians from the funj kingdom came in as well,and unmixed nubian populations already in upper nubia were growing again.
so we could agree only to a certain point but after that things must be clear and facts must come in and you did not have all the facts just some of it.
please read some books on the late nubian period.it will do you some good.
okay?okay.
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In The News
UK Archaeology World Archaeology Roman Update
Below are the details of your selected publication. Use your back button to return to the previous page.
Soba - Archaeological research at the medieval captial on the Blue Nile.
Author: Welsby D et al
ISBN: 1872566022
Period: Medieval History and Archaeology
Our price: £20.00 ($37.78 / €29.17)
British Institute in Eastern Africa - Memoir Number 12 1991 363pp 190 figs 54 b/w pls cloth DJ
Summary:
Soba was described by Arab writers of the ninth century as the rich and prosperous capital of the kingdom of Alwa, a kingdom converted to Christianity in AD 580 by the Byzantine missionary Longinus, and which flourished for over 700 years. They noted the magnificence of the city and the Alwan kings, who surpassed in power and wealth the kings of the much better known state of Makuria to the north. Small scale excavations at Soba prior to 1981 had, however, revealed little to support the claims of these medieval sources. This report records the results of the survey and excavation conducted by the British Institute in Eastern Africa from 1981 until 1986, a campaign which transformed our perception of Soba. Here is a detailed description of the buildings located, as well as sections by a number of specialists on the small finds, pottery, textiles, cordage, glassware, painted wall-plaster, inscriptions, ostraca, graffiti and palaeobotanical remains.
Welsby D et al - Soba - Archaeological research at the medieval captial on the Blue Nile. 1872566022
posted
by the way some midob and arabized nubian midob live in dafur and speak nubian and the arabized ones speak mostly arabic,hill nubians live in the noba hills and most did not intermarry with others and did not become black because they marry southern folks.most of them always remain that way and they come from nubia.do me a favor before you open you mouth again.look up the word noba,or even better look up hill nubian.do some real research before you write anything again.the so called mixture of most of northern sudan came in the later modern period and that was mostly the black arabs,not all of them as well.nubains today are still dark and the nubians are not brown race folks,you could say that with most of the arab in the suadan since most are mixed since that is were you are going with this but most still look black so they do not belong to the brown race like most modern egyptians .nubians live from aswan to sennar and some in other areas in africa and the sudan, damn it. you are just one stubborn person.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 22 June 2005).]
This is really stupid AMR. You know very well that AE painted the Nubians as Black and even over exaggerated their negroid features. The debate isn't over Nubia. We know they were Black people. The debate is about AE itself. And it isn't a question of White or Black, it is actually a question of Black or mixed.
This is really stupid AMR. You know very well that AE painted the Nubians as Black and even over exaggerated their negroid features. The debate isn't over Nubia. We know they were Black people. The debate is about AE itself. And it isn't a question of White or Black, it is actually a question of Black or mixed.
I know Nubians were black, but they have mixed so much with Egyptians, that they have become brown in african sense or black in american sense.
Actually Nubians today of North Sudan are arabized, there is no Arabs in Sudan and the ruling elite is not Arab, but Arabized. There is a difference. Nubians today many are black to brown, shades of colour, even the ones who married into Egyptianbs recently are light brown.
I repeat The Arabs of Sudan are in fact arabized Nubians. That is why they are almost black why almost because they have intermaried with teh Egyptians who have been mixing with others, and therefore lightening even the Nubians.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: I know Nubians were black, but they have mixed so much with Egyptians, that they have become brown in african sense or black in american sense.
Actually Nubians today of North Sudan are arabized, there is no Arabs in Sudan and the ruling elite is not Arab, but Arabized. There is a difference. Nubians today many are black to brown, shades of colour, even the ones who married into Egyptianbs recently are light brown.
I repeat The Arabs of Sudan are in fact arabized Nubians. That is why they are almost black why almost because they have intermaried with teh Egyptians who have been mixing with others, and therefore lightening even the Nubians.
no they did not mix with egyptain like that. see this is what i am saying you know nothing.
most of nubia remain unmixed black until medieval times and most in the sudan are still unmixed.
egyptians lived mostly in lower nubia and were small in numbers there,the rest of nubian remain nubianand most nubian back than marry nubians just like most do today.
and what about the black noba they came in to nubia into the late periods so thier were always new fresh waves of nubians that came into to nubia and all nubian art shows them as unmixed nubians so get over it.
most nubians in nubia never married outside thier race,so that is another point and nubians had tend to have mostly blacks from the south as slaves and servents that egyptians,and most egyptians were black unmixed africans anyway.
GET THIS FACT NOW,REGARDLESS OF ETHNIC GROUPS most marry their own kind regardless of race and most nubians were never forced in nubia to marry egyptians. southern nubia was never conqured by egyptians and that is were most nubians lived at during the late kush period and up to the modern period.even upper nubia reamin unmixed until medival time and most of that mixture happen in late medieval times and it ws with arabs not egyptians and southern nubia remain unmixed.
like i said before not all african american have some form of mixture and they are still racial black in that sense period.
don't you understand anything?here i am giving you facts and you refused to read or change your mind.is something wrong with you?
a good person that has been misinform would say okay i did not know that since i do not really read african books so you are not a good person you are a bad guy and something is wrong with you.
posted
yes ther are arabs in the sudan because that i what they called themselves and there are large number of nubians that are not arabized and the ones that are are still nubians unlike the black arabs.most nubians are still really dark in skin tone.
there are some brown nubians but what are you getting at?there are brown skin black africans too that are unmixed(by he way most blacks are dark brown and it has nothing to do with mixture.now there are a few browm race looking nubians but they are still black and they say so.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 22 June 2005).]
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 22 June 2005).]
posted
I have two Million Egyptians who are now called Egyptain Sudanese in Sudan thoroughly mixed with every vilage between Aswan and Kosti and those are decendants of 20000 Egyptians who came only between1820-1880.
This besides big tribes in Sudan who claim to be Arab and that they came through Egfypt 1000 years, like aljalein and Razeiqat.
You guys say what u like, but I am in the ground and this are my people, my heritage, personal, not ancient history.
There was no Egyptians coming into Nubia???//. I am one of them, I eat with thjis people daily, I know them inside out.
[This message has been edited by AMR1 (edited 22 June 2005).]
posted
wrong in all your comments again.those egyptians that mostly came in were arab,not the real egyptians.and where you get the number that ther aretwo million egyptains in the sudan.that is a lie.
there are 15.million arabs in the sudan and most in the past and most come from arabia.they are sudanese now, not egyptian. most of the outside groups of sudan are the white arabs.the brown ones are outsiders to to me but most of them are a mixtre of blacks and white in the sudan
there are about 2and half million brown arabs. there are about two and half white arabs and the rest are blacks arabs of varied mixture and some are unmixed.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 22 June 2005).]
5% Arabs like alrashida, mostly bedouins, have no economic or political power
5% Egyptians mixed with North Sudanese Nubians, merchants, and bureacrats. 2.5% OF THOSE ARE COPTIC CHRISTIANS AND UNMIXED WITH LOCAL NUBIAN POPULATION.
45% Arabized Nubians, they claim to be Arab, but some are so black, like VP TAHA. They are arabized and not Arabs, 5% Arab blood does not make you an Arab. This is the political AND CULTURAL elite. Those are the Biggest bulk of Nubians anywhere and there where you find some of them still speak NUBIANS.
5% BEJA, a mix of Nubians and Abysinians.
2% NUBA NUBIANS.
18% Black Darfurians and Central Sudanese Blacks, Non Nubians. Mostly in the army and farmers.
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Sudan population are as follow
5% Arabs like alrashida, mostly bedouins, have no economic or political power
5% Egyptians mixed with North Sudanese Nubians, merchants, and bureacrats. 2.5% OF THOSE ARE COPTIC CHRISTIANS AND UNMIXED WITH LOCAL NUBIAN POPULATION.
45% Arabized Nubians, they claim to be Arab, but some are so black, like VP TAHA. They are arabized and not Arabs, 5% Arab blood does not make you an Arab. This is the political AND CULTURAL elite. Those are the Biggest bulk of Nubians anywhere and there where you find some of them still speak NUBIANS.
5% BEJA, a mix of Nubians and Abysinians.
2% NUBA NUBIANS.
18% Black Darfurians and Central Sudanese Blacks, Non Nubians. Mostly in the army and farmers.
20% Southern Sudanese, Non Nubian group
That is the Sudan for you in a nutshell.
I personally think Nubia was greater as a Christian society. I guess the Funj was an interesting civilization.
What part of Nubian history do you like the most? And, what is it like being a Nubian anyways? I am not Black so I don't really have any issue with you saying your Brown. Technically so are most (if not all) American Black people. So, how is it you have internet access and the time to BS with us in this forum?
Actually, there was some migration of Egyptians into Khartoum during the Anglo-Egyptian occupation of Sudan. Most of these officers did not come from Saeed[Upper Egypt],but came from areas like Cairo and Alexandria. Some of these people took Sudanese wives but definately not the amount that Amr is suggesting.
The Nubians that live in Egyptian Nubia are very light because of mixing with Hungarians,Mamelukes,Bosnians,and Arabs that came into Egypt from 640 AD down to the 1700's under the Ottoman Turks. Jainssary and other foreign soliders were settled in Aswan to the Sudanese border,and thus often took local Nubian women as their wives.
These Nubians that are mixed with Hungarian are called Maagrab. Nubians mixed with Ottoman Turks are called Kushaf. The rest of the foreign admixture in Nubians is mostly Arab bedouin tribes that became Nubanized.
The Nubians pratice endogamy meaning they only intermingled with their family members. Most Nubians would never marry a Saidi[Upper Egyptian] at any coast. If Nubians have any ancestry from Egyptians it probably was from Coptic Christians who fled to Christian Nubia when facing persecution in Islamic Egypt. Lower Nubia had monestaries that also included some Christian Egyptians.
The Arabs that migrated into the Sudan came mostly from the Red Sea area,and some came from Bedouin Arab tribes imported into Egypt under the caliph. The Caliph had a policy of importing Arabs into Egypt to Arabized the rebellious rural populations in Egypt.
For more details about this then see the following:
You mean Turkish Egyptian Sudan 1820-1885. Anglo Egyptian Sudan 1898-1956.
20000 from Egypt came in 1820-1885.
My great grandfather came from Isna Upper Egypt, to settle in Omdurman-Sudan in 1844. His father used to trade between Isna - Addis Ababa-Omdurman since 1823. His wife was a daughter of an Ottoman Pasha, but they were from Asyut.
By the way until 1970, if you are not an Upper Egyptian, you have no chance in business in Sudan.
Their children married into Nubian families and upper Egyptians. I am not exagerating at all when I say I have family from ALEXANDRIA TO NYALA.-DARFUR. You go to Nyala, you will see my cousins a black as darfurians, you go to Alexandria, my cousins are European looking and both those cousins are 2nd cousins to each other.
In Asyut you are divided between the Fellah,Arab tribes[meaning bedouin tribes],and ashraf. The Hawwara lived from Asyut to Sohag. Probably many of these groups were sent to Sudan. Fellahin were not sent to the Sudan unless they were soliders of the Pasha.
Fellahin villages were policed like army barraks. Meaning fellah had to wear identification tags every time they left their villages.
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Sudan population are as follow
5% Arabs like alrashida, mostly bedouins, have no economic or political power
5% Egyptians mixed with North Sudanese Nubians, merchants, and bureacrats. 2.5% OF THOSE ARE COPTIC CHRISTIANS AND UNMIXED WITH LOCAL NUBIAN POPULATION.
45% Arabized Nubians, they claim to be Arab, but some are so black, like VP TAHA. They are arabized and not Arabs, 5% Arab blood does not make you an Arab. This is the political AND CULTURAL elite. Those are the Biggest bulk of Nubians anywhere and there where you find some of them still speak NUBIANS.
5% BEJA, a mix of Nubians and Abysinians.
2% NUBA NUBIANS.
18% Black Darfurians and Central Sudanese Blacks, Non Nubians. Mostly in the army and farmers.
20% Southern Sudanese, Non Nubian group
That is the Sudan for you in a nutshell.
wrong,here we go again-
wrong in all your comments again.those egyptians that mostly came in were arab,not the real egyptians.and where you get the number that ther aretwo million egyptains in the sudan.that is a lie.
there are 15.million arabs in the sudan and most in the past and most come from arabia.they are sudanese now, not egyptian. most of the outside groups of sudan are the white arabs.the brown ones are outsiders to to me but most of them are a mixtre of blacks and white in the sudan
there are about 2and half million brown arabs. there are about two and half white arabs and the rest are blacks arabs of varied mixture and some are unmixed.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 22 June 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I personally think Nubia was greater as a Christian society. I guess the Funj was an interesting civilization.
HERE IS SOME INFO ON THAT.
THE greatest period of nubian civilization would be the kush period and that would be the meriotic period,but the christian period of nubia was more advanced than the meriotic,and they had a stronger army and larger population.
THE FUNJ now would be a civilization within a civilization but it was made up of mostly nubians since the funj covered PARTS of the former nubian early kingdoms.
something like when the greeks came into egypt the population of egypt was still mostly egyptian,so in that since the funj was a confedaration of shilluks and southern nubians and nubians were the ones to convert the shilluks to islam.some of the funj kings were shilluks,but many were part nubian and part shilluk and others were southern nubians.later on it did NOT MATTER if nubians, part nubians or shilluks were the rulers because they were puppets of the nubian army leaders and faith leaders.THIS INFO I GOT FROM A BOOK CALLED THE FUNJ. THIS SCHOLAR WROTE A DETAIL HISTORY ABOUT IT.
The funj in a sense was still mostly nubian in civilization just like most of egypt was still egyptian in culture under the greeks.
later a new nubian kingdom broke away around the meroe area in 1600 a.d. and lasted until the turks came in 1823 a.d. another nubian kingdom was formed and lasted until the brits took it over. some nubians however never were conqured by any one including the brits.
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