I don't claim that all Lower Egyptians are foreigners or that they don't all desend from the ancient Egyptians because they are lighter. Apparently some do trace their ancestry back to the Albanians,Mamelukes,Turks,Armenians..etc
I don't deny that the modern Egyptian population across Egypt are mixed. However,Egyptians past Middle Egypt tend to be less mixed with Arabs than others. Very few Arabs settled in this area save for some tribes.
The claim that Coptic Egyptians are 100% pure is greatly exagerated. This is done mostly as a political move to counter Arabization of Egypt. After the Nasserite Revolution in 1954 many felt bewildered by the new embrace of Arab nationalism. Many also left Egypt because of Nasser's deal that took many wealthy land owning Coptic families land. This land was then distributed to poor Muslim fellahin. This caused probably the greatest rift between Copts and Muslims in Egypt. Of course the Copts have intermingled with Greeks,Syrian Christians,Armenians,and etc..
Let's face it. Modern Egyptians have a bias outlook on their own history. This is why many cannot be objective when dealing with the ethnic origins of the ancient Egyptians. Their opinions should not be ultimately used in determinging the origins of the ancient Egyptians.
You should not lash out at people like African Americans because they are fragmented people like many modern Egyptians. Both groups are searching for an idenity,and often look to the past to reaffirm their idenity. I would be more worried about racist anthropologist and scholars who distort AE history for their own political gains.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 14 July 2005).]
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Let's face it. Modern Egyptians have a bias outlook on their own history. This is why many cannot be objective when dealing with the ethnic origins of the ancient Egyptians. Their opinions should not be ultimately used in determinging the origins of the ancient Egyptians.
Yes, modern Egyptians like Fareed, AMR, AliBaba and all the other crackpots that argue pure emotional rhetoric!!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 14 July 2005).]
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"You should not lash out at people like African Americans because they are fragmented people like many modern Egyptians. Both groups are searching for an idenity,and often look to the past to reaffirm their idenity" - ausar
The reason I "lash out" is because I have had several encounters with black-Americans where they challenge the fact that I am Egyptian (as if they are). Everyone knows that black-Americans are descendents of the West Afticans. Now some might argue that West Africans are descendents of the Ancient Egyptians, but I find it hard to believe that ancient Egyptians migrated AWAY FROM THE NILE to West Africa or that they have any connection.
Whatever the case may be, they have no business challenging my heritage when most of them know very little about it. In fact, I've even heard them claim that Cleopatra was black.
BTW...you'll notice that I use the term black-Americans because I don't agree with the way the term African-American is used in America. The U.S. government came up with the politically correct term African-American to refer to black people. I am African-American because I was born in Egypt, yet I am not black. Most black Americans are simply Americans and only a fraction of them are really African-American.
Posts: 14 | From: Oakdale, CA U.S. | Registered: Jul 2005
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True_egyptian, at the same time many Egyptian immigrants over empohasis their arabness and this makes people think they are Arabs. I can understand you being annoyed with this but you should study your history and explain these things to these things to black Americans. Most Americans both black/white believe that modern Egyptians are all homogenous Arabs. This is where the confusion creeps in.
As far as ancient Egyptians coming from Western Africa is another discussion in itself. It would appear there were some cultural linkage between the Nile and Sahelian part of Western African when the Sahara desert was once moister than today. Probably some ancestral populations in the Central/Eastern Sahara pushed into the Nile Valley during the pre-dyanstic period. Understand that Western Africa was once very unpopulated and did not see a population boom untill the complete dessification of the Sahara desert.
I would say there is perhaps some cultural link and shared culture between the two areas.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by true_egyptian1: "You should not lash out at people like African Americans because they are fragmented people like many modern Egyptians. Both groups are searching for an idenity,and often look to the past to reaffirm their idenity" - ausar
The reason I "lash out" is because I have had several encounters with black-Americans where they challenge the fact that I am Egyptian (as if they are). Everyone knows that black-Americans are descendents of the West Afticans. Now some might argue that West Africans are descendents of the Ancient Egyptians, but I find it hard to believe that ancient Egyptians migrated AWAY FROM THE NILE to West Africa or that they have any connection.
Whatever the case may be, they have no business challenging my heritage when most of them know very little about it. In fact, I've even heard them claim that Cleopatra was black.
BTW...you'll notice that I use the term black-Americans because I don't agree with the way the term African-American is used in America. The U.S. government came up with the politically correct term African-American to refer to black people. I am African-American because I was born in Egypt, yet I am not black. Most black Americans are simply Americans and only a fraction of them are really African-American.
True, I totally agree with what you say!
Despite what you may think, I am not black but I know many who are. Although there are a few who believe in some of the nonsense you pointed out, most I met with agree that the ancient Egyptians were indigenous Africans of Northeast Africa. So as descendants of West Africans, they have no relation to Egyptians at least not directly. And of course, Cleopatra was of Greek/Macedonian descent with little if any Egyptian blood.
However, as native Africans, Egyptian culture does have many features akin to those of other African cultures including West Africa. If you compare Egyptian culture with other cultures of the Near-East you would notice that many things from their religion, their politics, their ethics, and views in general are distinct from other Middle-Eastern people and are better tied to Africa.
Modern day Egypt is a very diverse society as a result of the Islamic invasions and migrations, so just because you look more Middle-Eastern and not African doesn't necessarily mean you have no Egyptian blood in you at all. At least I would not think that. The fact is there are many people in Lower Egypt who are ignorant and readily mistake black Egyptians, especially those of Upper Egypt as being Nubians, even though they are the pure, unmixed kind of Egyptians. However for many black Americans to say the opposite that dismiss Middle-Eastern looking Egyptians as being pure foreigners with no Egyptian ancestry whatsoever is also wrong!
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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True Egyptian, i basically agree with everything you said except the fact that all black Americans are not descendants of West Africans. i am not. i'm a black American of Upper Egyptian heritage. just thought i'd point that out. Ancient Egyptians were most likely closest racially to Horn of Africa populations, and over time, Arabs and Europeans.
i personally don't believe that Egyptians and West Africans are racially the same but there are a few Egyptians who could probably pass for West Africans.
i ask this every time: if you're not black, what would you check if you filled out a survey? for me i pick African American, because that's what i am. plus nobody questions it because i am black too.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: True Egyptian, i basically agree with everything you said except the fact that all black Americans are not descendants of West Africans. i am not. i'm a black American of Upper Egyptian heritage. just thought i'd point that out. Ancient Egyptians were most likely closest racially to Horn of Africa populations, and over time, Arabs and Europeans.
i personally don't believe that Egyptians and West Africans are racially the same but there are a few Egyptians who could probably pass for West Africans.
i ask this every time: if you're not black, what would you check if you filled out a survey? for me i pick African American, because that's what i am. plus nobody questions it because i am black too.
No one everquestioned this for the Ancient Egyptians either, including the early Arab invaders of North Africa.
Europeans began covetting ancient African culture via colonialism, and some Arabs just immitated it. The early Arab invaders regarded Kemetic culture as pagan and alien.
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"i ask this every time: if you're not black, what would you check if you filled out a survey? for me i pick African American, because that's what i am. plus nobody questions it because i am black too." - walklikeanegyptian
When the term the U.S. government started to use to term African-American, it was very confusing for me. I am African-American but I am not black, so according to the U.S. government, I'm not African-American. At one time, I was told to check "white (non-Hispanic)" on a survey because the U.S. government consideres Middle-Easterners and North-Africans as white. I didn't agree with that either because I'm not white. So now I check "other" and write in Egyptian or, if that's not an option, I don't check anything at all.
"True Egyptian, i basically agree with everything you said except the fact that all black Americans are not descendants of West Africans. i am not. i'm a black American of Upper Egyptian heritage. just thought i'd point that out." - walklikeanegyptian
I knew that, but sorry, I should have said "most" black-Americans are descendents of West Africans. But that's what I meant when I said that only a fraction of black-Americans are really African-American.
Posts: 14 | From: Oakdale, CA U.S. | Registered: Jul 2005
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What race are Egyptians and West Africans? Are all West Africans the same race? Is race divided by region in Africa, North South, East and West? Ethnically they may be different, as a Nigerian is different from a South African, but they fall under the same racial umbrella. Does racial separation of Africans only apply when it comes to Egypt? Some Egyptians understand they are Africans and share a kinship with the rest of Africa and even AFRICAN-Americans. It seems that the Arab Africans have a MAJOR problem with being associated with the rest of Africa or anything else native to the continent, except Ancient Egypt of course.
How do you people categorize people, if you do at all? Do you use the standard Asian, White, Black, or Hispanic? Or, is Nigerian a race of people, Egyptian a race of people, the French a race of people, etc?
Is an Asian American not Asian because they are 4 generations in America?
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"The fact is there are many people in Lower Egypt who are ignorant and readily mistake black Egyptians, especially those of Upper Egypt as being Nubians, even though they are the pure, unmixed kind of Egyptians." - Djehuti
That's also a geralization. There ARE Nubians in Egypt so it would be difficult to determine weather a black person in Egypt is Egyptian or Nubian. But I do agree with you in that people should not automatically assume that a black person in Egypt is Nubian.
Posts: 14 | From: Oakdale, CA U.S. | Registered: Jul 2005
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"Some Egyptians understand they are Africans and share a kinship with the rest of Africa and even AFRICAN-Americans. It seems that the Arab Africans have a MAJOR problem with being associated with the rest of Africa or anything else native to the continent, except Ancient Egypt of course." tdogg
I did share a kinship with black-Americans until they started questioning my own heritage. My point is, I am more Egyptian than they think they might be. As I stated before, I don't categorize myself as an African-American to the U.S. government because I don't fit THEIR description of the term, since I am not black. But I do consider myself African-American because I am.
Posts: 14 | From: Oakdale, CA U.S. | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by true_egyptian1: "The fact is there are many people in Lower Egypt who are ignorant and readily mistake black Egyptians, especially those of Upper Egypt as being Nubians, even though they are the pure, unmixed kind of Egyptians." - Djehuti
That's also a geralization. There ARE Nubians in Egypt so it would be difficult to determine weather a black person in Egypt is Egyptian or Nubian. But I do agree with you in that people should not automatically assume that a black person in Egypt is Nubian.
You guys keep saying “Black” this, “Black” that. Isn’t “Black” an American term used to describe AFRICAN-Americans? I haven’t met an African from Africa who considers himself “Black” or even heard of it.
As you call them “Black” or Nubian Egyptians, shouldn’t you be called an Arab Egyptian and the Fellahins Native Egyptians?
quote:Originally posted by true_egyptian1: [BAs I stated before, I don't categorize myself as an African-American to the U.S. government because I don't fit THEIR description of the term, since I am not black. But I do consider myself African-American because I am.[/B]
Exactly, so why use it to divide Nubian or darker skinned Egyptians?
[This message has been edited by tdogg (edited 15 July 2005).]
[This message has been edited by tdogg (edited 15 July 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by tdogg: You guys keep saying “Black” this, “Black” that. Isn’t “Black” an American term used to describe AFRICAN-Americans? I haven’t met an African from Africa who considers himself “Black” or even heard of it.
As you call them “Black” or Nubian Egyptians, shouldn’t you be called an Arab Egyptians and the Fellahin and Native Egyptians?
You are correct, tdogg!!
Europeans referred to Africans in general by the exaggerated term 'black' because they were so much darker than them. But really, how many Africans are truly, really black?? Most fall into a range of brown shades and complexions. Even in places like Egypt or Sudan I believe the term black is 'aswad' or something. But very few would fit that description since most of them are brown.
Which is why the whole 'race' thing is confusing. What makes it worse is when white Americans use the so-called "one-drop" rule and anyone who looks like they have African ancestry at all no matter how white or pale they look is automatically 'black'!!
So yes the whole thing is confusing!
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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My stance is that I have a problem when modern day Egyptians claim the Ancient culture but deny that it's African.
To be honest, I don't care what actual genetic ancestry they have! They could be of pure Palestinian, Syrian, or even Greek descent and claim the ancient Egyptian culture as part of their national heritage but to deny its African nature is silly. This is like the Mestizas of Mexico or even the Mexican elites of pure Spanish descent who deny that Aztec civilization was indigenous American!!
That's my stance.
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"Everyone knows that black-Americans are descendents of the West Afticans." @True Egyptian
Nope. Do some more research on us and you will find that most Black Americans' slave ancestors came from nearer EAST Africa. Like around the Congo area. West African ancestry is more likely to be found among the Blacks in the Caribbeans.
I am sorry you are confused about who you are and most others are too. I am so glad I am obviously "Black" and either African or African descent to People all over the world. Everyone one on earth knows what I am the second they get a glimpse of me. I feel kind of sorry for people like you. Folks don't know whether you are Arab, white, Mexican, or whatever.
Don't hate on us or Black Americans of African descent, ok???
Posts: 303 | From: Inside my Mind | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by true_egyptian1: I did share a kinship with black-Americans until they started questioning my own heritage. My point is, I am more Egyptian than they think they might be. As I stated before, I don't categorize myself as an African-American to the U.S. government because I don't fit THEIR description of the term, since I am not black. But I do consider myself African-American because I am.[/B]
Wow, a couple of African-Americans question your Arab heritage and you turn on all African-Americans.
Tell me, what's the difference between you and people who HATE Arabs because of 9-11? Seems to be nothing.
You can't judge a group of people based of the actions of some. Think about it...
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"I am sorry you are confused about who you are and most others are too. I am so glad I am obviously "Black" and either African or African descent to People all over the world. Everyone one on earth knows what I am the second they get a glimpse of me. I feel kind of sorry for people like you. Folks don't know whether you are Arab, white, Mexican, or whatever.
Don't hate on us or Black Americans of African descent, ok??? - Serpent Wizdom
There's no need to feel sorry for me. I know I am Egyptian. You should feel sorry for the people that question and attack my ancestry. They feel that they must prove that I am NOT connected to the ancient Egyptians in order to prove that THEY are.
Posts: 14 | From: Oakdale, CA U.S. | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by true_egyptian1: "You can't judge a group of people based of the actions of some. Think about it..." - tdogg
You are absolutely right. It just seems like these occurances are becoming more and more frequent and it's really annoying me.
You are not dreaming it, most African Americans need to be connected to something an identity, a root besides simply black americans.
Mulsim black americans are not so impressed by the pagan ancient egyptian history.
The non muslim African american, he is either almost fanaticchristian or trying to steal the link of being a descendant of the ancient egyptian, instead of the real descendant of ancient Egypt and try to impress the fact that modern Egyptians are now white while ancient egyptians were brown. It is a serious disease.
Yet we see many black families turning white in 2 generations of marrying into white people , not 7000 years.
THe non muslim African americans joined with christian Copts who have issues with muslim egypt and jews to rob arabized Egyptians of their legacy, part of a big war crusade against anybody who speak arabic or Muslim. They say it is not so, but there is a crusade going against Muslims, militarily, culturally , political in all fronts.
posted
Thanks AMR1 for your response. At least now I know that I'm not the only one experiencing this.
Posts: 14 | From: Oakdale, CA U.S. | Registered: Jul 2005
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sorry amr1 brown is black remember europeans made up the word and like u said they see u as black in itali and american. U cant make up or own race ur part of what the europeans gave to us.
Posts: 188 | From: canton,ma,united states | Registered: May 2005
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You know there still is ancient Egyptian culture within modern Egypt,but its only amongst the baladi and fellahin people. These people are both Muslim and Christian and comprise a large bulk of the population. Nobody cares about these people,nor cares about their history or suffering. Why is that?
You don't have to transport back into ancient Egypt to see its still right there in both the rural Delta and Middle and Upper Egypt. The culture is slightly Islamicized and Christianized,but its still remains regardless.
If you know who your ancestors are then why care what others think. What you should care about is racist anthropologist and Egyptologist that do want to steal ancient Egyptian history from Egyptians. Read any old Egyptologist and you will see these things.
Determining the origins of the ancient Egyptisn is done through anthropology,archaeology,linguistics and a series of other field reserch. This is what matters and not opinions of others.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: You are not dreaming it, most African Americans need to be connected to something an identity, a root besides simply black americans.
Mulsim black americans are not so impressed by the pagan ancient egyptian history.
The non muslim African american, he is either almost fanaticchristian or trying to steal the link of being a descendant of the ancient egyptian, instead of the real descendant of ancient Egypt and try to impress the fact that modern Egyptians are now white while ancient egyptians were brown. It is a serious disease.
Yet we see many black families turning white in 2 generations of marrying into white people , not 7000 years.
THe non muslim African americans joined with christian Copts who have issues with muslim egypt and jews to rob arabized Egyptians of their legacy, part of a big war crusade against anybody who speak arabic or Muslim. They say it is not so, but there is a crusade going against Muslims, militarily, culturally , political in all fronts.
Regards,
AMR1, Stop being paranoid. There is no "crusade going against Muslims, militarily, culturally , political in all fronts." Secondly I'm an African American and I am neither a Christian or a guy trying to link myself with egyptian culture. As far as blacks in America trying to attach themselves to other cultures not their own, I think you as a educated man should be a little more understanding. How many Ja'ali or Shagiya do you know from sudan that have charts showing their descent from prophet Muhammads family? I'm sure you know many. I do. I have yet to meet a person from Sudan that does not also speak a non arabic related local language along with arabic. This is the remnant of their original culture. African amreicans have not had the benefit of living in a culture that made access to cultural materials from the regions of africa from whence they came. This is why so many African Americans studied Swahili instead of Yoruba,Fante, or Fon during our cultural awareness revival in the '60's and '70's. White americans controlled the books and white people were concerned about Safari's in Kenya. AMR1, I'm sure you're a good brother but stop going off half cocked about African Americans and crusaders. If America was really as bad as some think they wouldn't come here or any Western Country (and stay here for that matter). Those folks would stay home, renounce corruption and build their own countries. This goes for all African countries: Egypt included. We're all educated people lets try to keep our focus on AE. That or we need a ethnobiology and a ethnosociaolgy forum started.
quote:Originally posted by kifaru: AMR1, Stop being paranoid. There is no "crusade going against Muslims, militarily, culturally , political in all fronts." Secondly I'm an African American and I am neither a Christian or a guy trying to link myself with egyptian culture. As far as blacks in America trying to attach themselves to other cultures not their own, I think you as a educated man should be a little more understanding. How many Ja'ali or Shagiya do you know from sudan that have charts showing their descent from prophet Muhammads family? I'm sure you know many. I do. I have yet to meet a person from Sudan that does not also speak a non arabic related local language along with arabic. This is the remnant of their original culture. African amreicans have not had the benefit of living in a culture that made access to cultural materials from the regions of africa from whence they came. This is why so many African Americans studied Swahili instead of Yoruba,Fante, or Fon during our cultural awareness revival in the '60's and '70's. White americans controlled the books and white people were concerned about Safari's in Kenya. AMR1, I'm sure you're a good brother but stop going off half cocked about African Americans and crusaders. If America was really as bad as some think they wouldn't come here or any Western Country (and stay here for that matter). Those folks would stay home, renounce corruption and build their own countries. This goes for all African countries: Egypt included. We're all educated people lets try to keep our focus on AE. That or we need a ethnobiology and a ethnosociaolgy forum started.
Kifaru, AMR is a confused hypocrite!
He criticizes black Americans for trying to connects themselves to other cultures, yet Sudanese like him, desprately try to connect themselves to Arabs when their African culture is far older and grander than any Arab culture! He claims that the ancient Egyptians, Nubians and even Ethiopians were all "mixed-race" and that was the only reason why they were able to create civilization.
And whenever someone points out how ridiculous his way of thinking is, he accuses them of being ant-Arab or anti-Islamic!! He even accused Ausar of being a disgruntled Copt, when both of his parents are Muslims! LMFO
This guy is a joke!!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 16 July 2005).]
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Continue spreading false statement
Ausar is a Copt.
No he isn't! He explained on a thread months before that his father comes from a Coptic family but he converted to Islam, especially since his mother and her family is Muslim!
You are the one spreading false statements based on mere assumption!
You do that all the time just because no one agrees with your mixed-up fantasies!!
It is besides the point anyway that ancient Egyptian civilization originated from the south by Africans, not from the Delta regardless of whether the Delta people were "mixed"!
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 16 July 2005).]
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Continue spreading false statement
Ausar is a Copt.
You stupid fool!! You are the one spreading false statements.
And please someone, for the love of God post some proof that we Black Americans of African descent are trying to say Ancient Egypt belongs to us; Please bring in the proof or shut the hell up!!
I have met a many fellow Black Americans who study and revere Ancient Kemet but none, I mean absolutely none ever tried to say that Black Americans of African descent are the true descendants of this great African nation. I've heard anyone say this in person or on tv, in print etc.. So where the hell is all this coming from?
What I do hear from my fellow brotha and sistah here in America that Ancient Egypt, from its begginnings was a BLACK AFRICAN nation. This is true whether Black Americans believe this or not.
We say that AE was African and Black and fight to keep it so. Just because we are not on the African continent does not mean we do not have the right to do this.
I live in LA and the museum courting that alien caveman as King Tut was the center of a boycott by guess who?? Black Americans, who were saying that the boy-king was AFRICAN AND BLACK. None of the protesting were saying he was related to Black Americans in any shape, form or fashion. Just that he was Black and African.
We also say that the mighty kingdoms of Mali and Songhay where BLACK AND AFRICAN. We say that the mighty Zulu nation was BLACK AND AFRICAN. I can't recall anyone having a problem with us concerning these statement.
People like these culure bandits on this board who always got something negative to say about Black Americans are just mad because we have a louder voice, media wise then Black folks in other parts of the world and what we say, state, and claim will be heard and viewed worldwide before just about any other Black group of people who does not reside here.
I know that Black folks all across this earth had a problem with that false portrayal of King Tut. Did anyone hear about their boycotts and individual statements nation wide? From what I've seen, most times it is the things that are very expedient and disastorous that are heard when coming from other parts of the Black world.
Posts: 303 | From: Inside my Mind | Registered: May 2005
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That's besides the point! When someone disagrees with Amnesiac, he start accusing him of being anti-Islam or anti-Arab! What do Islam or Arabs have to do with ancient Egypt anyway?? NOTHING!!
AMR, you need help!
Posts: 26349 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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When the term the U.S. government started to use to term African-American, it was very confusing for me. I am African-American but I am not black, so according to the U.S. government, I'm not African-American. At one time, I was told to check "white (non-Hispanic)" on a survey because the U.S. government consideres Middle-Easterners and North-Africans as white. I didn't agree with that either because I'm not white. So now I check "other" and write in Egyptian or, if that's not an option, I don't check anything at all.[/B]
the government considers Egyptians as caucasians. i do qualify as an African American by the government's expectations and i check off African American, even though i'm Egyptian. if the government were ever to have a problem with it, then they're hypocrites.
in my opinion, everyone in America of African descent, black or not, should be able to use the term African Americans.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: True Egyptian, i basically agree with everything you said except the fact that all black Americans are not descendants of West Africans. i am not. i'm a black American of Upper Egyptian heritage. just thought i'd point that out. Ancient Egyptians were most likely closest racially to Horn of Africa populations, and over time, Arabs and Europeans.
i personally don't believe that Egyptians and West Africans are racially the same but there are a few Egyptians who could probably pass for West Africans.
i ask this every time: if you're not black, what would you check if you filled out a survey? for me i pick African American, because that's what i am. plus nobody questions it because i am black too.
THE ancient egyptian came mostly from the south and the sahara so most of them would be connected racially to the black african period since most were blacks in ancient times but not all.today it is another story.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
LMFO
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