posted
It is widely agreed that northern Sudanese were the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. They are Nubian/Cushitic in origin but what is the origin of southern Sudanese?
[This message has been edited by Puro Hybrido (edited 01 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Puro Hybrido: It is widely agreed that northern Sudanese were the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. They are Nubian/Cushitic in origin but what is the origin of southern Sudanese?
The question is rooted in multiple assumptions.
Facts:
Northern and Southern Sudan are modern Geography, not ancient ethnicity.
Cushite is 1st and foremost a language group.
The Nubians of Meroe [Kush], the 25th Dynasty, etc. and modern people called Nubians generally spoke/speak Nilo Saharan languages, not Cushite languages like the Oromo or Beja, although the Beja/Medjay are sometimes referred to as "Nubians" by western historians, though not necessarily by the Km.t [Ancient Egyptians].
Nilo Saharan languages are common today in southern Sudan.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: The question is rooted in multiple assumptions.
Facts:
Northern and Southern Sudan are modern Geography, not ancient ethnicity.
Cushite is 1st and foremost a language group.
The Nubians of Meroe [Kush], the 25th Dynasty, etc. and modern people called Nubians generally spoke/speak Nilo Saharan languages, not Cushite languages like the Oromo or Beja, although the Beja/Medjay are sometimes referred to as "Nubians" by western historians, though not necessarily by the Km.t [Ancient Egyptians].
Nilo Saharan languages are common today in southern Sudan.
That's a very interesting topic: Nubians speak a Nilo Saharan language...the Nubian language belong to the Nilo Saharan group of languages...but what's very interesting is how widespread that language is present in Africa...but it would be interesting to establish some links between Nilo Saharan languages and ancient Egyptian... Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: That's a very interesting topic: Nubians speak a Nilo Saharan language...the Nubian language belong to the Nilo Saharan group of languages...but what's very interesting is how widespread that language is present in Africa...but it would be interesting to establish some links between Nilo Saharan languages and ancient Egyptian... Relaxx
What's more interesting is that even though the languages of Nile Nubian groups like the Kanuzi and Mahas are Nilosaharan, they show Cushitic influence.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: That's a very interesting topic: Nubians speak a Nilo Saharan language...the Nubian language belong to the Nilo Saharan group of languages...but what's very interesting is how widespread that language is present in Africa...but it would be interesting to establish some links between Nilo Saharan languages and ancient Egyptian... Relaxx
According to Christopher Ehret some of the earliest terms related to Animal domestication in Africa and therefore difused into mdw ntr are Nilo Saharan.
C. Ehret:
In Africa, you find the earliest domestication of cattle. The location, the pottery and other materials we've found makes it likely that happened among the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the sites are in southern Egypt. There is an exceptionally strong correlation between archaeology and language on this issue.
ps - there is some excellent linguistic discussion going on on Ausar's forum so I'm going to copy this to that forum
posted
What is the origin of the conflict between northern and southern Sudanese? Why do they consider themselves different? Was it the same in the past (4000-5000 years ago)?
Posts: 29 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
The conflict probably started around the time of the British. What happened before was that some bedouin Arabs migrated into northern Sudan and mixed with the local people. Most of these bedouins came from Egypt and some came from the Red Sea area. Despite the mixture the northern Sudanese are as African as southern Sudanese.
The north/south is not the only conflict in Sudan because you also have the Nuba in the mountains and also the Beja in eastern Sudan. The whole issue is about Arabization and not wanting to become Arabized. The Sudanese government is running a program to make all Sudanese ''good little Arabs'' much like the Victorian tried to make her colonials ''good little Europeans''.
Some of this might have to do with the colonial anthropologist such as Carl Seligman or before Macmichael who drew a false line between the ''arab'' North and ''black'' African south. All these things don't exist but exist in the minds of the Sudanese.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
RIGHT many of those arabs in the sudan are still clearly black,not all but most,and the the arabs that came in mixed with some of the native africans there,that is why you have so many arabs that look black there but some blacks just took said they are arab but have no mixture and many claim to say they are arab and still claim their original ethnic background with no arab mixture at all.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 02 August 2005).]
posted
I'll agree with what Ausar said with the added comment that there is a clear difference in the general appearance of Extreme Northern and Extreme Southern Sudanese. Central sudan complicates the issue further because they look like both. What I find strange is that so many sudanese from the North could fit in with other african ethnic groups without notice. Many Southern Sudanese look like Zarma from West Africa in facial feature and body type. Many Northern sudannese look like shorter west africans like Ibo and Hausa. In the main any group of Sudanese does not look so different from one another that you can determine whether or not they are from a particular region unless you happen to be Sudanese and even they are not always sure.
Posts: 167 | From: usa | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
The conflict probably started around the time of the British. What happened before was that some bedouin Arabs migrated into northern Sudan and mixed with the local people. Most of these bedouins came from Egypt and some came from the Red Sea area. Despite the mixture the northern Sudanese are as African as southern Sudanese.
The north/south is not the only conflict in Sudan because you also have the Nuba in the mountains and also the Beja in eastern Sudan. The whole issue is about Arabization and not wanting to become Arabized. The Sudanese government is running a program to make all Sudanese ''good little Arabs'' much like the Victorian tried to make her colonials ''good little Europeans''.
Some of this might have to do with the colonial anthropologist such as Carl Seligman or before Macmichael who drew a false line between the ''arab'' North and ''black'' African south. All these things don't exist but exist in the minds of the Sudanese.
Thank you Ausar. Both N Sudansese and S Sudanese are black but their cultures are markedly different.
Certainly there is a broad agreement that the Sudan has been undergoing a process of Arabization and Islamization since the invasion of the Sudan by Arab tribes from Upper Egypt and across the red sea during the Middle ages.
[This message has been edited by Puro Hybrido (edited 02 August 2005).]
quote:Thank you Ausar. Both N Sudansese and S Sudanese are black but their cultures are markedly different.
The difference is mainly that southern Sudanese have more pre-Islamic/pre-Christian traditions. This can be somewhat misleading too because many Beja,Nubians,and other Sudanese have pre-Islamic traditions. Overall, their culture is more Islamic than it is Arabic.
quote:Many Northern sudannese look like shorter west africans like Ibo and Hausa. In the main any group of Sudanese does not look so different from one another that you can determine whether or not they are from a particular region unless you happen to be Sudanese and even they are not always sure.
Well, this is true,but don't forget that Bayuda road connects Western Africa to parts of Sudan. Many Hausas,Mande,and Fulani settled in parts of modern northern Sudan. There is an ethnic group in northern Sudan called the Fulata related to the Fulani of the Sahel. The Sahel zone is directly correlated with Western Africa.
Northern Sudan was once a popular Hajji destination for Western African Muslims.
Let me also say that many Baggara Arabs in northern Sudan look no different from many Dinka/Shilluk tribes in southern Sudan. Baggara are possibly Nilotic pastorals that became Arabized.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
From what I understand, most of the non-Arabized people there are Muslims, unlike the Christian and traditionalists of southern Sudan, yet they are still being slaughtered!!
What the hell is going on with these Arabized-nutcases?!!!
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So what the heck is going on in Darfur??!!
From what I understand, most of the non-Arabized people there are Muslims, unlike the Christian and traditionalists of southern Sudan, yet they are still being slaughtered!!
What the hell is going on with these Arabized-nutcases?!!!
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: It's called alienation... Relaxx
U and your buddy are ignorant about the Sudan and its history and youir blind hate to Islam, make you don't look deeper.
When the Britts entered the Sudan in 1898. They decided that the first threat to them is Islam and they fought it in territories like Southern Sudan, by closing the area to even regular trade with the Muslim North.
In 1955 before the britts left, southerners rebelled against Khartoum who was ruled by muslims arabized since 1954, financed by the Churches of Europe.
Sudan since than was in war daily. Imagine the resources that could have build the Sudan in the last 50 years.
Sudan has become so poor and people marginalized triggering Darfur and other areas to revolt against Khartoum whether arabized or not, muslims or not.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Southern Sudanese oil.
Does it matter....Any way sudans oil is probably going to run out at least in the next five yesrs the way its going now. Remember Sudans proven oil is estimated at 3 billion and 2 billion un-proven.
look out for the the western nations tring to get their fingers on that by playing on Christin south against the muslim north.
i predict hardish in the 5 or 10 yesrs for sudan. I pray that that people who think like AMR are a minority and that there are sensibale people on both sides.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic