*NOTE* elongated africans means africans with narrow features.

Let's start with : Egyptians (I'm going to post others later!)

Don't forget the pictures of the Beja people in Sudan.

quote:

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elongated africans means africans with narrow features

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Correct.

But there is more that needs to be clarified, so that we don't end-up going off on a bogus Euro-loser tangent:

Elongated morphology refers not just to facial features but to overall body type.

From Jean Hiernaux, who did more than anyone else to define the concept:

thin small head, small face, long limbs, skin color dark to intermediate.

It also includes Nilo Saharan and Niger Congo as well as Cushitic, Berber and Semitic speakers. It includes West and Central Africans and not just East Africans.

It is not a 'race'.

It is not a 'language group'.

It is not an ethnic group.

It is a morphology, or type of physical appearance native too and FOUND ONLY AMONG, Black Africans.

THESE PEOPLES......

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Why did you select these particular Egyptians? Most of these people DO NOT REFLECT THE AVERAGE EGYPTIAN, BUT RATHER A MINORITY WITHIN EGYPT ITSELF!!

The other selections seem to be more accurate, but the Egyptians selected are not

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He selected the pictures of the modern southern Egyptians because they bear the closest phenotype to the ancient Egyptians. Please notice the thread said elongated Africans.

He was showing modern elongated African types in modern Egypt.

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Originally posted by ausar:

He was showing modern elongated African types in modern Egypt.

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Lol. The question was predictable though, because limited thinking is predictable.

Some are so blinded and mentally self limited by western racist thinking that they can't even see clearly enough to fathom the topic, outside of the context of ws.t racism, even given the detailed explanation of what elongated African actually means -

It is not a race.

There are other ways of understanding human diversity besides 'race', but you have to able to think, not simply repeat fallacies you've learned all your life.

That is the challenge.

quote:

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Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
[B][b]If these people are neither Negroid or Caucasoid, what are they and why?

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They are indigenous tropical/black Africans. "Negroid" and "caucasoid" are pseudo-science, that are far from the realities reflected in bio-anthropology.

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If these people are neither Negroid or Caucasoid, what are they and why? Also, how do most of these so called Elongated Africans define themselves and do they actually think of themselves as one group or one race?

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I imagine they would define themselves within their own cultural group. Outside the western world most people don't go by racial designations like ''negriod'' or ''caucasoid''

When we say ''elongated African we mean in terms of morphology. The elongated morphology is basically a adaptation to hot-dry conditions. Elongated African is not a race nor a language family but a morphology.

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Originally posted by Super car:
[] They are indigenous tropical/black Africans. "Negroid" and "caucasoid" are pseudo-science, that are far from the realities reflected in bio-anthropology.

[/]

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Lol. The question was predictable though, because limited thinking is predictable.

Some are so blinded and mentally self limited by western racist thinking that they can't even see clearly enough to fathom the topic, outside of the context of ws.t racism, even given the detailed explanation of what elongated African actually means -

It is [b]not a race.

There are other ways of understanding human diversity besides 'race', but you have to able to think, not simply repeat fallacies you've learned all your life.

That is the challenge.

As for the question above - caucaZoid/negroid are irrelevant to modern bioanthropology, it's like asking if elongated Africans are "taurus or scorpio."[/B]

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The author of this thread DOES NOT SHARE YOUR limited point of view.

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It's not a matter of 'point of view'.

Elongated African is a morphology and not a race.

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Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
I understand that most of these people do not live in tropical regions of Africa and good portion of them [b] DO NOT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS BLACK AFRICANS--SO WHAT GIVES OTHERS THE RIGHT TO DO IT FOR THEM?

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Giza, you have to be able to distinguish science from pseudo-science, and gibberish from sense.

Human beings don't stay in one place. They aren't static or statues. Using your logic, the White minority in South Africa couldn't possibly be white, because of where they are now located, right? All aside, these African regions don't have the climate to warrent cold-adaptation.

These folks are black, in reference to their skin pigmentation. They are tropically adapted, in terms of body proportions. They are Africans, because that is where they originate. How many ways does this have to be explained. Judging from your last remark to Ausar, you can't possibly be implying that Europeans are tropically adapted, as is the case with the so-called "Elongated" African morphology, or are you?

quote:

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Originally posted by Huzal:
These people are all the same race. They're not Caucasoid nor Negroid!!

*NOTE* elongated africans means africans with narrow features.

Let's start with : [b]Egyptians (I'm going to post others later!)

[This message has been edited by Huzal (edited 03 September 2005).][/B]

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*NOTE* elongated africans means africans with narrow features.

wrong,there are many with long heads and broad noses and thick lips(or lips not so thick or thick) and kinky hair and are unmixed.broad noses by the way does not mean a large nose only,you could have a small braod nose to still be unmixed.
elongated does not mean africans with narrow features.it could be those with long heads with narrow noses or those with narrow(long heads)with broad nose or narrow nose,or kink or wavy or straight hair.
they could be mixed or unmixed or those with some form of mixture.

many unmixed sudanic west africans of western sudan in west africa have longheads and most still have broad noses(that vary),dark skin and kinky hair.
you could find alot of blacks in other parts of west africa with these features,or features that are in between.

by the way i always thought that elongated africans included those with not just narrow noses,elongated to me always meant those with long heads,not broad heads,and they could have varied broad noses or varied narrow noses.

[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 04 September 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Outside the western world most people don't go by racial designations like ''negriod'' or ''caucasoid''

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That's because outside of the Western world there's no such thing as physical anthropology. Only Westerners have analyzed worldwide racial variation and coined the proper terminology. Whether or not you like that terminology really doesn't matter, because it has no bearing on the empirical evidence. The fact remains that "elongated" morphology puts East Africans closer to Europeans than to Sub-Saharan Africans. Nothing will ever change that.

Is there an ulterior motive in not classifying East Africans as part of the so-called “Black” Race”?

The fact remains that "elongated" morphology puts East Africans closer to Europeans than to Sub-Saharan Africans. Nothing will ever change that

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Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:

The fact remains that 'Elongated morphology' has nothing to do with Europeans and Elongated East Africans share no close relationship with Europeans. Nothing will ever change that. Idiot.

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Correct. Hiernaux specifically points out that in many ways elongated East Africans are even more distinct from West Asians than the Bantu, or diminuative "Pygmy" groups are.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Correct. Hiernaux specifically points out that in many ways elongated East Africans are even more distinct from West Asians than the Bantu, or diminuative "Pygmy" groups are.

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This is BS I've seen many Ethiopians and Somalis who looked like East Indians and I've seen quiet a few with Hooked nose's.

Example these could easily be Indian/Paki.

Notice the straight hair?

And look at this map how close they're to India...

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Correct. Hiernaux specifically points out that in many ways elongated East Africans are even more distinct from West Asians than the Bantu, or diminuative "Pygmy" groups are.

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quote:

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This is BS

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Outside the western world most people don't go by racial designations like ''negriod'' or ''caucasoid''

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Modern bio-anthropologists in the ws.t have also discarded those 18th century racist constructs, or admited that efforts to define human diversity in such terms have failed:

CL Brace: terms like caucaZoid-mongoloid-negroid are worse than useless - Cl Brace

the attempt above, to construct regional or "racial" groups or units, like "Caucasoid" by pooling modern Europeans, have not been successful." - WW Howells.

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Originally posted by leba:

This is BS I've seen many Ethiopians and Somalis who looked like East Indians and I've seen quiet a few with Hooked nose's.

Example these could easily be Indian/Paki.

Notice the straight hair?

And look at this map how close they're to India...

[This message has been edited by leba (edited 04 September 2005).]

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Dummy, Elongated Africans shar more of a biological backround with other Africans than with Indians and Pakistanis. I can selectively post pictures of Somalis that look nothing like the ones you posted, would it matter?

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Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
Dummy, Elongated Africans shar more of a biological backround with other Africans than with Indians and Pakistanis. I can selectively post pictures of Somalis that look nothing like the ones you posted, would it matter?

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I was talking about Phenotype dummy...Indians and East Africans look a like..

quote:

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
That's because outside of the Western world there's no such thing as physical anthropology. Only Westerners have analyzed worldwide racial variation and coined the proper terminology. Whether or not you like that terminology really doesn't matter, because it has no bearing on the empirical evidence. The fact remains that "elongated" morphology puts East Africans closer to Europeans than to Sub-Saharan Africans. Nothing will ever change that.

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Originally posted by leba:

I was talking about Phenotype dummy...Indians and East Africans look a like..

[This message has been edited by leba (edited 04 September 2005).]

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Originally posted by kenndo:
some do,most do not.
have you look at a map of east africa lately,kenya,tan. most of sudan,large parts of ethiopia etc. etc

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OK..I meant Ethiopians, Somalis and Eritreans , Now happy?

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Originally posted by leba:

I was talking about Phenotype dummy...Indians and East Africans look a like..

[This message has been edited by leba (edited 04 September 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

In terms of Phenotype many populations share similar physical features yet have no common recent shared lineage. The Nigerians and the Persians both have dark hair and eyes (phenotype), yet the Persians have more in common with the Swedes who have light hair and eyes than they do with the Nigerians. If by the use of the term "RACE" one means common shared lineage then one has to acknowledge that North, South, East, West and Central Africans all share the common AFRICAN PN2 clad, as do some non-Africans such as Greeks who are hybrid.

quote:

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Originally posted by leba:

OK..I meant Ethiopians, Somalis and Eritreans , Now happy?

[This message has been edited by leba (edited 04 September 2005).]

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None of these three even look alike dummy.

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

In terms of Phenotype many populations share similar physical features yet have no common recent shared lineage. The Nigerians and the Persians both have dark hair and eyes (phenotype), yet the Persians have more in common with the Swedes who have light hair and eyes than they do with the Nigerians.

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Those are just only TWO FEATURES. I meant overall features like Facial features, Skin, Hair, Hair color etc.

Indian

Ethiopian

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Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
None of these three even look alike dummy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

In terms of Phenotype many populations share similar physical features yet have no common recent shared lineage. The Nigerians and the Persians both have dark hair and eyes (phenotype), yet the Persians have more in common with the Swedes who have light hair and eyes than they do with the Nigerians. If by the use of the term "RACE" one means common shared lineage then one has to acknowledge that North, South, East, West and Central Africans all share the common AFRICAN PN2 clad, as do some non-Africans such as Greeks who are hybrid.

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You will never get picture spammers to even open a book on physical anthropology, much less understand the subtle concepts you are relating, nor do they wish to.

As a result the context of what Hiernaux was saying about elongated morphology has been completely lost:

Hiernaux compared the morphology of elongated Africans, broad faced Africans and Gulf Arabs, he concluded:

In skin colour, the Tutsi are darker than the Hutu, in the reverse direction to that leading to the caucasoids. Lip thickness provides a similar case: on an average the lips of the Tutsi are thicker than those of the Hutu

He specifically compared these three groups to test the hypothesis of people like Carleton Coon, who believed that Hutu were Native to Africa, but that the Tutsi were descendant of Arabs from Arabia.

Hiernaux proved [in 1975 no less] that this notion was wrong.

DNA would subsequently verify Hiernaux's views and prove that elongated Africans are Native to Africa, and not immigrants from Eurasia....further debunking Carleton Coon.

This is why CL Brace agrees with Hiernaux.

Hiernaux futher went on to assess the skeletal [not just cranial] morphology of a variety of Africans. This has come to be known as an elongated morphology, it includes the measurements shown below as well as femur-tibia ratios and other factors.....

Tutsi of Rwanda:

[color=green]

• Stature: 176 cm
  
• Head length: 198 mm
  
• Head breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face height: 125 mm
  
• Face breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose height: 56 mm
  
• Nose breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 92.8
  
• Nasal Index: 69.5[/color]

  
  Masai:

  [color=blue]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 140 mm
  
• Face Height: 121 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 137 mm
  
• Nose Height: 54 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 39 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 47.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 72.8
  
• Facial Index: 89.0
  
• Nasal Index: 72.0[/color]

  
  Galla(Oromo):

  [color=red]

• Stature: 171 cm
  
• Head length: 190 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 147 mm
  
• Face Height: 122 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 133 mm
  
• Nose Height: 53 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 37 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.3
  
• Cephalic Index: 77.6
  
• Facial Index: 91.5
  
• Nasal Index: 69.0[/color]

  Sab Somali:

  [color=gray]

• Stature: 173 cm
  
• Head length: 194 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 145 mm
  
• Face Height: 119 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 134 mm
  
• Nose Height: 49 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 36 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 49.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.7
  
• Facial Index: 88.5
  
• Nasal Index: 72.8[/color]

  Warsingali Somali:

  [color=navy]

• Stature: 168 cm
  
• Head length: 192 mm
  
• Head Breadth: 143 mm
  
• Face Height: 123 mm
  
• Face Breadth: 131 mm
  
• Nose Height: 52 mm
  
• Nose Breadth: 34 mm
  
• Relative Trunk length: 50.7
  
• Cephalic Index: 74.5
  
• Facial Index: 94.1
  
• Nasal Index: 66.0[/color]
  

quote:

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Originally posted by leba:

I was talking about Phenotype dummy...Indians and East Africans look a like..

[This message has been edited by leba (edited 04 September 2005).]

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I have an Ethiopian co-worker who has dark brown skin and dreadlocks. He was born in Ethiopian. Believe me, he would never be mistaken for an Indian.

quote:

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Originally posted by Babbling Ape:
Hiernaux compared the morphology of elongated Africans, broad faced Africans and Gulf Arabs, he concluded:

In skin colour, the Tutsi are darker than the Hutu, in the reverse direction to that leading to the caucasoids. Lip thickness provides a similar case: on an average the lips of the Tutsi are thicker than those of the Hutu

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Hiernaux f*cked up, moron. Tutsis aren't elongated East Africans. They're central African, E3a-carrying, Bantu Negroids:

Somalis are elongated East Africans, though (with some Negroid maternal admixture) . . .

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Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Hiernaux f*cked up, moron. Tutsis aren't elongated East Africans. They're central African, E3a-carrying, Bantu Negroids:

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Hiernaux didn't mess up, you messed up, this has already been proven. Can you refute his measurements? Tutsis are elongated East Africans, regardless of whether they have E3a or not, just as Sahelian Fulani are Elongated types and even Brace groups them with Northeast Africans and they have plenty of E3a and virtually no E3b.

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Somalis are elongated East Africans, though (with some Negroid maternal admixture) . . .

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Proof? Somalis have majority L1-L3 lineages just like other Africans, nothing 'Negroid' about it. Unless you can prove that 'non-Negroid' Elongated East African mtDNA bearing female were partially or totally replaced by incoming intruding Negroid women only, you have no argument.

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
"Elongated" is a phenotype Dumb-Euro and has nothing to do with the haplotype makers

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
"Elongated" is a phenotype Dumb-Euro and has nothing to do with the haplotype makers you are talking about!

And enough with the same selective pics that don't reperesent the majority of Somalis.

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euro clown...enough with the pic spaming...
classifaction of elongated east african has baring to morphology ..."elongated"....not haplotype....(e3a/e3b).... where all stressed about this neuro-disfunctional character ;S

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Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
Tutsis are elongated East Africans, regardless of whether they have E3a or not

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When you're trying to prove something about the phenotype of indigenous East Africans, using an intrusive Bantu population like Tutsis as your example isn't going to help you any.

Let's deal with populations that are actually East African (on the Y-chromosome at least):

Well, if you don't like either explanation, then the onus is on you to provide an alternative theory to account for Brace's plot. If Somalis are neither mixed with Eurasians nor descended from Eurasian-like East Africans, then how do you explain their cranial alignment near Eurasian groups?

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Somalis have majority L1-L3 lineages just like other Africans

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quote:

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Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
Tutsis are elongated East Africans, regardless of whether they have E3a or not

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quote:

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When you're trying to prove something about the phenotype of indigenous East Africans, using an intrusive Bantu population like Tutsis as your example isn't going to help you any.

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Charlie Bass and Hiernaux and CL Brace are all correct of course, and EuroDummy is simply too stupid to understand what any of them are saying.

For everyone else, who is not retarded.....

Elongated Africans, per Hiernaux - found in West Africa, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Burundi, Kenya and Namibia.

It is a morphology induced by climate. [CL Brace]

It is not a Y chromosome, it is not race, and it is not exclusive to East Africa.

quote:

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Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
[b]Why did you select these particular Egyptians? Most of these people DO NOT REFLECT THE AVERAGE EGYPTIAN, BUT RATHER A MINORITY WITHIN EGYPT ITSELF!!

The other selections seem to be more accurate, but the Egyptians selected are not.

[/B]

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Well gaza rider, thier is really not average egyptian look, reason why.

1. egypt is diverse country
2. Most egyptians that live in the US that u might think are the average egytian come from either alexandria or ciaro and most are from the elite class in egypt, whom have recant foriegn decant. If you dont believe me ask many egytians here in the states they will tell you they have turkish, armenian, syrian, italian, persian, or arab decant.
3. The pics that were posted in this thread of egytians are really true egyptians.
4. again thier is no such thing as the average egyptian.