posted
I'm just being curious, who considers himself or herself as an African on this board, let's say someone who holds or used to hold an African passport. It's not a provocative message, I just want to have an idea. Relaxx
Posts: 577 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Giza-Rider: [b]The term African is just like the term Asian, it has very little meaning when it comes to race, language, or religion.
Africans are diverse, just like Asians, and there is no one particular type of African. Asians are also White, Brown, Black, and Yellow.
We Africans are White, Olive, Brown, Red, and Black. We speak hundreds of different languages and dialects. We worship many different Gods and adhere to several different religions and denominations.
THE MAIN THEME THAT RUNS THROUGHOUT AFRICA, IS THAT MOST OF US HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF IMPERIALISM AND WESTERN AGGRESSION AND COLONIZATION.
IT IS BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT COLONIAL POWERS COULD NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME PEOPLE, AND WE DO NOT SHARE THEIR SIMPLISTIC POINTS OF VIEW, WE ENDED UP WITH ARTIFICIAL NATIONS AND COUNTRIES WITH IMPOSSIBLE BORDERS.
WHAT THE EUROPEAN POWERS DID, WAS DIVIDE NATIONS AND TRIBES, WITHOUT ACTUALLY CONSULTING THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. THIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS, THAT YOU HAVE SO MANY CONFLICTS IN AFRICA AND NOT TO MENTION GENOCIDE, LIKE IN RWANDA AND THE SUDAN.
p.s. I'm a native born Egyptian--the black Africans don't think of Egyptians as Africans, but we are part of Africa, such as the Russians are part of Asia.
[/B]
Your are an African, anyway, I don't care about the color of the skin, I just want to know who is African... Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by Omugabe: Yeah, Berber, Bantu, Nilote, Horner, Khoisan, Boer, whatever, doesn't really matter. As long as you're from Africa, you're African in book.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
Boers live on the African continent, but they are NOT genetically African. That is bullshit!
Please, be more polite...you are correct they are not genetically Africans...But for an African, Berbers or Boers look white, even some African Americans could pass for white in Africa...so from an African perspective, it's the same...to be honest with you the majority of Africans, outside South Africa don't care about issues related to races. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 26 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: But for an African, Berbers or Boers look white, even some African Americans could pass for white in Africa
Even in Africa, Berbers are NOT equated with Boers. Matter of fact, even light skin tone Arabs are not equated with "Whites" like Boers. It also depends on which Berbers you are referring to. Viewpoints on social constructs within the continent aren't uniform and does change from place to place or region to region.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 26 September 2005).]
The term African is just like the term Asian, it has very little meaning when it comes to race, language, or religion.
Thought Writes:
1) All terms are just terms. Your statement makes no sense.
2) You have not defined what YOU mean when YOU use the term "Race", hence you have made no point that can be truly understood.
3) Linguistically AE belongs to the Afro-Asiatic language family which derives from Sub-Saharan East Africa.
4) The religion of the AE people is derived in essence from the Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic.
quote:Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
Africans are diverse, just like Asians, and there is no one particular type of African.
Thought Writes:
Agreed, however when comparing Africans in a GLOBAL analysis based upon DNA they have overall greater affinity with each other than with non-Africans. One must understand the theories of absolutism and relativism.
quote:Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
We Africans are White, Olive, Brown, Red, and Black.
Thought Writes:
Yes, today due to conquest, White Slavery and immigration there are many Africans with non-African backgrounds as well. This was much less the case during the Bronze Age and prior.
quote:Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
THE MAIN THEME THAT RUNS THROUGHOUT AFRICA, IS THAT MOST OF US HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF IMPERIALISM AND WESTERN AGGRESSION AND COLONIZATION.
Thought Writes:
If by "Western" you mean European and SW Asian I agree. Foreigners have been invading Africa since the Hyksos period, when the Sub-Saharan dominate gene pool of Egypt was infiltrated by "Asiatic" types. We see the results of this foreign influx in the faces of modern Egypt today.
Please, instead of being weak and effeminant more Black people should get some nuts and speak out against bullshit White Supremacy. The idea that someone would claim that the people who killed Biko could be African is jive!
quote:Originally posted by relaxx:
But for an African, Berbers or Boers look white, even some African Americans could pass for white in Africa...so from an African perspective, it's the same...to be honest with you the majority of Africans, outside South Africa don't care about issues related to races.
Thought Writes:
Can you please provide me with the statistics from the survey data you used when polling Africans? Or shall I assume that we are dealing simply with you opinion?
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 26 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Super car: Even in Africa, Berbers are NOT equated with Boers. Matter of fact, even light skin tone Arabs are not equated with "Whites" like Boers. It also depends on which Berbers you are referring to. Viewpoints on social constructs within the continent aren't uniform and does change from place to place or region to region.
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 26 September 2005).]
Well Supercar, Since you lived in Africa as you mentioned in some of your posts, Tuaregs look more like Black Africans, however Kabyles definitely look white like the Boers. Although, I have to admit, they tend to have Elongated Eastern African features, that's the only thing that differentiate them from the Boers, along with the hair color. Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
Can you please provide me with the statistics from the survey data you used when polling Africans? Or shall I assume that we are dealing simply with you opinion?
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 26 September 2005).]
I don't have any data, but for sure, I'm an African, and have a good idea about what Africans think... Relaxx
I don't have any data, but for sure, I'm an African, and have a good idea about what Africans think... Relaxx
Thought Writes:
Your a freakin genius relaxx. I mean in this country of 300 million plus large organizations pay Market Researchers millions of dollars to survey people to get their opinions. But here we see that you have the inate ability to call upon your psycic powers and discern what 800 million plus Africans think.
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: I'm just being curious, who considers himself or herself as an African on this board, let's say someone who holds or used to hold an African passport. It's not a provocative message, I just want to have an idea. Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: Well Supercar, Since you lived in Africa as you mentioned in some of your posts, Tuaregs look more like Black Africans, however Kabyles definitely look white like the Boers. Although, I have to admit, they tend to have Elongated Eastern African features, that's the only thing that differentiate them from the Boers, along with the hair color. Relaxx
Relaxx, the point was that, it isn't just the simple matter of skin color. At least from my experience in the Altantic West African region and in the African Horn, I can tell you that most people here don't put light skin "Berbers" like those in Morocco and the dark skin ones in the Mali-Niger territory, as well as Arabs of all shades, in the same camp as "Whites" of European descent, like the Boers. Moreover, what ever socio-political constructs exist within Africa, there doesn't exist a uniform standard. For instance, in the Gambia and Senegal, people usually refer to people of different ethnic background by their language background or ethnic names, rather than skin tone. Arabs are called Arabs here, and "Whites" are called "Toubab". "Arabs" are not viewed here as "Toubabs" or "whites", from what I have learned thus far!
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 26 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Omugabe: Yeah, Berber, Bantu, Nilote, Horner, Khoisan, Boer, whatever, doesn't really matter. As long as you're from Africa, you're African in book.
I am African. Born, bred and educated in Africa but currently studying outside of Africa. I consider the people mentioned above as Africans, though the Boers make a hard sell! Perhaps it is the attitude of the few "Afrikaners" I have met that makes me hesitate! About skin colours and races, perhaps growing up around diversity (in the African Great Lakes region) made me realise that Western racial dichotomies are simplistic at best.
posted
The question of who is an African can be problematic. I was in Gambia in late August and early September when CNN International began broadcasting the New Orleans storm and flooding and when we saw the photos of the crowds of African Americans streaming into the big stadium shelters everybody watching the news thought that the crowds looked like anywhere in West Africa. In fact, a blogger from Afghanistan wrote in the British Guardian exactly the same thing when he saw the TV images. He literally thought that New orleans was just like Africa. Obviously on a strictly "looks" basis African Americans are African on the basis of what the vast majority look like; and even their lighter-skinned mayor could easily pass for a North African.
What's problematic would be the question of culture. Sociologists have long wrangled over what to make of the culture--including music, dance, aesthetic tastes, styles, manner of speaking, etc.--of African Americans. Empirical fact: the music, dance, religious styles and even mannerisms(some refer, for example, to the way blacks walk ) of African Americans is quite distinct from that of their white counterparts. Is it genetics or just a different culture? The same holds for the sports styles and prowess of African Americans. Blacks play all the major sports in America differently from whites as most would say... quietly.
Yet the same could be said about blacks in Africa from the Sudan and parts of North Africa where the language and religion are not considered African--by most. And urban-born blacks from West African places like Ivory Coast and Cameroon use French and pidgin English to communicate and even teach their children French and English as their first language.
On the other hand, Lebanese born in West Africa are never considered African, nor do they ever see themselves as such. When Lebanese men have to choose a wife they invariably import a wife from Lebanon. And nobody complains as far as I know.
And the same principle--the principle that says that phenotype always trumps culture for purposes of human classification--held in the case of some white South African tourists who had migrated to the U.S. during Apartheid times. They chose to tour the Gambia along with some African Americans but while the blacks were always greeted with "brother" or "brother man" the South African whites were simply seen--with requests for money, exchange of addresses, etc.--as other whites from Europe.
So how does one figure that one out? I guess it depends on the strength of the culture in question. Jews born in any country are seen first as Jews--except the Falhasha Jews of Ethiopia--by other Jews world-wide.
The same holds for Arabs who could be born in West Asia or Africa. For Chinese and Hindus, it's practically the same thing. South African and Kenyan Indians never refer to themselves as African. In fact, they would be offended if one were to make such a mistake.
And despite protestations by some to the contrary, the vast majority of North Africans--regardless of phenotype or "race"--would unabashedly declare themselves "Arab" and not "African". The same would hold for many in Northern Sudan. And to be frankly objective: despite the fact that they are phenotypically indistinguishable from most Africans there are large numbers of black Americans who would reject being referred to as African. Note that even the term "black" was held to be a term of disgrace--some years ago, the preferred appellation being "coloured". And the same would apply to the "coloureds" of South Africa some of whom still feel insulted if called "African".
You made a CHOICE to overlook a comment about Boerers being African and decided instead to respond to me when I started checking that b.s. You have been on this forum long enough to realize that there is a concerted effort to posit non-Africans in Africa as indigenes. Given the context of this forum (Ancient Egypt) I know that you are aware of the implications of this sort of non-sense. We must be consistent.
Raise your standards and raise the level of discourse on this forum. None of this is personal Relaxx. It is my duty...
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 26 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
You made a CHOICE to overlook a comment about Boerers being African and decided instead to respond to me when I started checking that b.s. You have been on this forum long enough to realize that there is a concerted effort to posit non-Africans in Africa as indigenes. Given the context of this forum (Ancient Egypt) I know that you are aware of the implications of this sort of non-sense. We must be consistent.
Raise your standards and raise the level of discourse on this forum. None of this is personal Relaxx. It is my duty...
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 26 September 2005).]
Please raise your standard, I will reply to your messages, but only if you write withouth using bad language... Relaxx
LOL...how can they be more african then a afro american... and berbers can not be equated to the boers since the share a common origin PN@ whereas the boers are euro invaders...
Please raise your standard, I will reply to your messages, but only if you write withouth using bad language... Relaxx
Thought Writes:
Fair enough : )
So lets re-cap:
1) There is a subtle attempt to redefine who is and who is not an African by **grafting** people of predominante Eurasian ancestry into the historical record of Africa simply because they live in MODERN AFRICA.
2) There is also another subtle strategy being used whereby relativism is used in application to who is and is not African. Yet when applied to Europe a strict form of absolutism is applied to restrict who can be considered indigenous European.
quote:Originally posted by mali: arent the boers=belgian and or irish????
Boer war south afrik.... im kind of confused??
LOL...how can they be more african then a afro american... and berbers can not be equated to the boers since the share a common origin PN@ whereas the boers are euro invaders...
Tell that to a Black African farmer, they would view them as white anyway. Rekaxx
posted
Relaxx, You are obviously just playing with those who don't know. In West Africa, people always distinguish between "whites" and other groups who are definitely of non-African origin. For example, Lebanese are never called whites in West Africa. They are always called Lebanese--regardless of where they were born. The same for Indians who run shops in parts of West Africa. They are called "India man" invariably.
In Dakar there are Moroccan shop keepers and they are called just that: "Marocain". Simple.
The term "white" is reserved exclusively for people who look just like Europeans regardless of place of birth.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Relaxx, You are obviously just playing with those who don't know. In West Africa, people always distinguish between "whites" and other groups who are definitely of non-African origin. For example, Lebanese are never called whites in West Africa. They are always called Lebanese--regardless of where they were born. The same for Indians who run shops in parts of West Africa. They are called "India man" invariably.
In Dakar there are Moroccan shop keepers and they are called just that: "Marocain". Simple.
The term "white" is reserved exclusively for people who look just like Europeans regardless of place of birth.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Relaxx, You are obviously just playing with those who don't know. In West Africa, people always distinguish between "whites" and other groups who are definitely of non-African origin. For example, Lebanese are never called whites in West Africa. They are always called Lebanese--regardless of where they were born. The same for Indians who run shops in parts of West Africa. They are called "India man" invariably.
In Dakar there are Moroccan shop keepers and they are called just that: "Marocain". Simple.
The term "white" is reserved exclusively for people who look just like Europeans regardless of place of birth.
Most of us come to this forum to gain insight into AE and ancient Africa, not where one is born, what ones favorite color is, or to learn the astrological sign of others. Is there a deeper purpose to your line of inquiry?
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
Hi Relaxx,
Most of us come to this forum to gain insight into AE and ancient Africa, not where one is born, what ones favorite color is, or to learn the astrological sign of others. Is there a deeper purpose to your line of inquiry?
It's deeper than that, I don't understand why you care about irrelevant people like Euro, that's my problem with you guys, unless you address that, I won't understand you. The day you stop sending messages to bastard Euro, that's when I will respect you. Relaxx
I don't understand why you care about irrelevant people like Euro, that's my problem
Thought Writes:
Relaxx, we have been over this before. It is not that we "care" about Evil E. We care about the newbies who come to this forum and fall for Evil E's misrepresentations. Evil E is also usefull in that he has used every twist and turn to escape from the simple fact that Greeks have substantial Neolithic Sub-Saharan genetic lineages.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
Relaxx, we have been over this before. It is not that we "care" about Evil E. We care about the newbies who come to this forum and fall for Evil E's misrepresentations. Evil E is also usefull in that he has used every twist and turn to escape from the simple fact that Greeks have substantial Neolithic Sub-Saharan genetic lineages.
posted
I didn't answer you original question because I thought it was childish. Of course I am African born in Farafinna(near Kaolack on the Senagelese border), Gambia. In Africa people don't go around asking other people whether they are African. People would just be perplexed by such a question. The main thing would be what is your name and your language if from within the same country and what is your country if you crossed those colonial borders.
Are you really African? Puzzled, because that was an odd question you asked plus your attempt to factor in obvious whites who just happen to live in Africa. I just have my doubts--because since the internet does no come with video cameras very often whites who know parts of Africa pretend to be African just to be "agents provocateurs". Why don't post your real photo?
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quote:Originally posted by Thought2: Thought Writes:
Boers live on the African continent, but they are NOT genetically African. That is bullshit!
That's not a very nice thing to say. Why the hostility?
So what if Boers are white and non-indigenous? You don't have to be genetically or culturally African to be an African. Do Americans have to be genetically or culturally Native American to be American? Of course not.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thought2: [B] Thought Writes:
Seriously, you don't know the psychology of people, just ignore him(Euro), and he will go away...just try. I mean who cares about hybrid Europeans; in East Africa, Europeans are viewed as Bantus, because of their features...That's why we find your discussion with Euro as useless, I mean, I live in North America, I can tell that people from European background are mixed... anyway, do whatever you want.... Relaxx Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 26 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by lamin: I didn't answer you original question because I thought it was childish. Of course I am African born in Farafinna(near Kaolack on the Senagelese border), Gambia. In Africa people don't go around asking other people whether they are African. People would just be perplexed by such a question. The main thing would be what is your name and your language if from within the same country and what is your country if you crossed those colonial borders.
Are you really African? Puzzled, because that was an odd question you asked plus your attempt to factor in obvious whites who just happen to live in Africa. I just have my doubts--because since the internet does no come with video cameras very often whites who know parts of Africa pretend to be African just to be "agents provocateurs". Why don't post your real photo?
I'm from Africa, although I noticed that people from West Africa are more influenced by foreign cultures.... Relaxxx
quote:Originally posted by Giza-Rider: BTW, I don't consider Black Americans Africans---and most native Africans tend to share this point of view.
BTW I do - although it doesn't matter.
there is a very simple but profound explaination for the problems in africa. If this one thing ever changes, the rest of the world is in trouble.....this is why so many non africans revel in the chance to stoke people of african descent.....4 words which may never separate themselves from the african experience.......but hopefully they will...........
"WE ARE NOT ORGANIZED"
do not be dismayed at the feeble attempts of mental lightweights to divide our ranks. Our collective mind has been awakened and it is now our duty to inform our children and the children of our greater family. It is our duty to inform them of the "MAGNIFICENCE" of the history of ALKEBULAN; which includes it's oldest daughter, KEMET. The power of synchrony and our mutual movement together will, as it has done for millenia before, pull us through.
Let's just follow the thread of a discussion. Maybe you just had a few more tuskers that you should have had. I just don't follow what you are trying to say. What does "being influenced by other cultures" have to do with what is being discussed?
Again, let's see your real photo!
The point is that being African is not an issue of nationality or passport, it's about being "of Africa" in the same way that a baobab tree is "of Africa"--regardless of where you transplant it.
Let's just follow the thread of a discussion. Maybe you just had a few more tuskers that you should have had. I just don't follow what you are trying to say. What does "being influenced by other cultures" have to do with what is being discussed?
Again, let's see your real photo!
The point is that being African is not an issue of nationality or passport, it's about being "of Africa" in the same way that a baobab tree is "of Africa"--regardless of where you transplant it.
Again, let's see that photo!
Anyway African people got my point and replied accordingly, I'm just fed up about wannabe Africans. Relaxx
I'm from Africa, although I noticed that people from West Africa are more influenced by foreign cultures.... Relaxxx
In what context do you make that statement, for in various ways, people of different cultures, when they come into contact, influence one another in some shape or form?
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 26 September 2005).]
posted
Just very amusing. Still showing your hand: no African who knows English ever uses phrases like "wannabe African". Sounds more like American or British talk to me. And your whole approach is diametrically opposed to how Africans think and behave. Farrafina hospital has about 15 Cuban doctors in practice. They are treated with great hospitality especially those who are black. We see them as Africans even though they prefer being Cuban first. We even offerd them some land for themselves. That's the way we are with our kin from overseas. Not your way--again my doubts!
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Just very amusing. Still showing your hand: no African who knows English ever uses phrases like "wannabe African". Sounds more like American or British talk to me. And your whole approach is diametrically opposed to how Africans think and behave. Farrafina hospital has about 15 Cuban doctors in practice. They are treated with great hospitality especially those who are black. We see them as Africans even though they prefer being Cuban first. We even offerd them some land for themselves. That's the way we are with our kin from overseas. Not your way--again my doubts!
Les ouest africains sont trop superficiels comme toi....la majorité des Africains sont plus....Africains... Relaxx
p.s. I'm a native born Egyptian--the black Africans don't think of Egyptians as Africans, but we are part of Africa, such as the Indians, Chinese, Armenians, & Russians are part of Asia.
Giza-Rider, where in the universe did you come up with the idea that black Africans don't view Egyptians as Africans? This is got to be among the dumbest thing you've yet posted. It is a figment of your imagination. It is YOU, who is on a campagne to divide Africans, in particular, separating Egyptians from what you perceive as "black Africa", going as far as implying that it is the Egyptians, who don't see themselves as Africans. Your memory may be short, but I recall one specific exchange you had with Ausar, along those lines. In your attempt to seperate Egypt from what you perceive as "Black Africa", you've used Black Americans as scapegoats. Was it not you, who suggested that Africans don't have that racist baggage that Americans have? And now, you turn around and contradict yourself! You are a very confused individual.
posted
Relaxx, This is really amusing. Stop playing around with your playful comments. Here we have some Belgian or Frenchman based in Rwanda, Burundi or Congo who is getting a kick out of playing around. Relaxx, colonialism is over, it's time to go home.
Again, Africans don't just say things like "East Africans are superficial" and that "the majority of Africans are more African". What do those 2 comments mean? In fact, we hardly ever talk about East Africans or West Africans like that--preferring to talk about a specific country--and never in terms of whether their inhabitants are superficial or not. I mean, that's so vague and uninteresting. And we talk about a country only when we have lived there for a while and know the people. And even so we are much more modest than the way you talk. The harshest talk is usually about how "clannish" or "thrifty" or "selfish" or "honest" or "difficult" a particular group is, not whether they are superficial or not. Again big doubts!
I'm just being curious, who considers himself or herself as an African on this board, let's say someone who holds or used to hold an African passport. It's not a provocative message, I just want to have an idea.
Thought wrote:
Most of us come to this forum to gain insight into AE and ancient Africa, not where one is born, what ones favorite color is, or to learn the astrological sign of others. Is there a deeper purpose to your line of inquiry?
-------
I will have to agree here. Certainly if you have the desire to open a topic on such inquiry, expecting posters to reply, then surely it shouldn't be too much for others to ask what intentions lie behind it. Or else, you'll have to admit that your inquiry is rather peculiar, wouldn't you? There has got to be a reason, for you to "want to have an idea"!
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