where can I find this data?

I am sure that the closest documents we have to answering your question is probably during the Ptolemic period and Roman period.

You also have to take into account that peoples from Western Asia,Crete,and other ethnic groups migrated to Kmt as peaceful people. In Egyptian armies were mercenaries from various nationalities that would often intermarry with local Egyptian women. Sometimes also given land in bonunes.

These books might be able to give more first hand references than I can:

EGYPT AFTER THE PHARAOHS - 332BC-AD642 - By Alan K Bowman

Life in a Multicultural Society: Egypt from Cambyses to Constantine
Johnson, Janet H

Agriculture in Egypt from Pharaonic to Modern Times
Edited by Alan K. Bowman and Eugene Rogan

A History of Ancient Egypt (Paperback)
by Nicolas Grimal, Ian Shaw (Translator)

I might add that Herodotus gives the number of Greek and Carian mercenaries to about 30,000. But this is during the 27th dyansty.

See also:

no thanks I've had a steady dose of it since birth.....

sorry I don't allow myself to see the world from a "superior" aryan point of view

and this is what they do this is the nature of all people trained by the hands of slavers and colonizers........t's how they make themselves feel better about their inhumanity.......defamation......name calling
they even have other races expresing their feelings about us to us; knowing full well that they feel the same way about other races.........
not that there is such a thing as race anyway

BE GONE

SIMPLETON.

AND how conflicted you seem......

do you worship JESUS, "Horemheb"?
my guess is yes

As far as Horemheb, you can ignore him because he is a frustrated eurocentrist. The problem is that he is so Eurocentric that for him, Eurocentrism is his reality thus he denies that it ever exists as an actual mentality!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
First of all there is no such thing as a Eurocentric...

---

quote:

---

This is an example of the kind of thinking you do in academic areas as well and it is what leads you to these silly ideas.

---

Professor I suggest you go here

The funny thing is that when I provided evidence for the existence of Eurocentrism, your excuse was that it was all a matter of 'human nature', that domination and superiority of one group over the other is natural part of human history as well as behavior. But soon after that it seems you had a bout of amnesia and went back to your ridiculous claims that "Eurocentrism doesn't exist"!!

So what's going on professor?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Afrocentrist, there are some of your premises I agee with but some I don't. What you fail to realize is that there are some flaws in some so-called 'Afrocentric' studies. For example I have read Chancellor Williams' book and the problem is that he theorizes that the 'racial' situation in the Sudan is what also happened in ancient Egypt, even though we know this isn't the case! You also talk about the Olmec people of Central America having African connections due to the statues. There are Native Americans in rural areas of Central America that have the same "negroid" features as those statues!

As far as Horemheb, you can ignore him because he is a frustrated eurocentrist. The problem is that he is so Eurocentric that for him, Eurocentrism is his reality thus he denies that it ever exists as an actual mentality!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Horemheb:
[b]First of all there is no such thing as a Eurocentric...[/b

---

quote:

---

[b]This is an example of the kind of thinking you do in academic areas as well and it is what leads you to these silly ideas.

---

Professor I suggest you go here

The funny thing is that when I provided evidence for the existence of Eurocentrism, your excuse was that it was all a matter of 'human nature', that domination and superiority of one group over the other is natural part of human history as well as behavior. But soon after that it seems you had a bout of amnesia and went back to your ridiculous claims that "Eurocentrism doesn't exist"!!

So what's going on professor?[/B][/QUOTE]

FOR ME anyway, africentrism is simply about perspective.....it puts africa at the center of the world instead of europe....so that events occuring in world history can be seen as they affect or have affected people of african decent - especially given our shattered diamond status.....
I can't speak for others so I know not what it means to them............

I am wide open to the Idea that not all black writers are informing people correctly; you must admit however, most people of african decent believed as they had been taught that they had no history until the arrival of the Arab or european........once they find out otherwise
they become almost fanatical at trying to find out who they are where they came from and how they came to know and believe what it is they know (or thought they knew).
I don't know very many Native Africans who subscibe to the concept of Africentrism - it mainly is a reactionary thought process to the constant bombardment of eurocentrism in a country that hid this any and all of our history during our education to protect their egos and hide their guilt from slavery......the same thing holds true for colonizers ......who educated many Native africans this way.................

Afrocentrist,you jumped off topic. You asked for sources on estimating how many foreigners came to Kmt and it gave what sources I know. Don't drift off the topic.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
We teach history from every area of the world including Africa. Many great historians and others are doing great work in these areas.
Keep in mind that most of these discplines are young in a modern sense. We are always getting better and learning more.

---

always excuses........Egyptology was created during an unprecedented era in human history as it relates to the treatment of one group of people by another........If africa had a major role to play in the shaping of the worlds major religions......if africa had a role in shaping of civilization period in the world......if africa had a major role in the field of astronomy........if africa had a major role to play in all of the sciences of the mystery system....chemistry,physics,medicine, pastoral science, agricultural science, all of the things which are the bedrock of any civilization.........
if by chance (and the chance is great - given the geographic proximity of the greatest civilization the world has ever known) Black Africa and Black Africans had something....anything to do with it.......

HOW on earth could we expect the same people who would be our captors and slavemasters (and yes I include europe too - for itis through slavery that capitalism in europe was born) to be honest and objective even now with respect to these issues........and I'm not pointing fingers I just don't feel European based Egyptology, born during a time when all of the dark people on the planet were being subjugated, can be or will ever be completely objective.............
I marvel at people like zahi Hawass..........

I watched on the discovery channel just last week.....
staring into the face of a black African....Khufu....in his pyramid....unmistakably Black African (even by a child) and say that there was no major Black african element in Egypt.......
this has nothing to do with objectivity.....
it has to do with a pattern of thinking which suggests that africans are not and were not capable of creating grand culture on their own.........false......
how could it be that the first people to walk upright would be the last to move in step with the rest of the world?

we look at south america.......and by the way "Djehuti"; your reaction to the theory about the olmecs is typical (please don't take that as an attack)I'm learning...truth is a continuous examination of the facts........I almost wrote it out in advance of the responses I knew it would get...............so you are tellin me that all the physical evidence the terra cotta the skeletal evidence the transplanted bottlegourd, the transplanted cotton, the transplanted words for many metals and all of the things which leave little doubt about their source the plum serpant the pyramids the currents of the oceans the size of the seafaring boats the africans had.......all of these things and still.....
your response is .....many native americans have.....negroid characterisics......
the same thing is said wherever there are found strange images of blacks in heretofore archaeologically unblemished (only as it relates to blacks) regions

info please

I won't be baited again.......at least until after I go through some older threads.....sorry everyone.....

back to the subject..

I posted information of the amount of foreign pressence in ancient Egypt. These were the only sources I could find,but I am sure there are probably more sources.

I find you very intelligent. I wonder if you have read "Stolen Legacy" by George James? It is a very small book but has information in it that totally blast eurocentricity and a European Ancient Egypt right out of the water. The book is awsome!!

Mr. Jackson was viciously murdered for revealing the information that he had gotten from his masonic studies.

Get the book!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
A recent DNA study done by a major university in Egypt proved that the people of Egypt today, are carbon copies of the people back then.

---

Do you have a link to this study, by chance?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
afrocentric, Africa had almost no role to play in shaping the things you mentioned. Not as they apply to the creation of the modern world. You know my friend, there is a better than even chance that Condi Rice will end up President of the United states at some point in the future. She has no interest in this 'slave' mentality you seem to be obsessed with. Think about it.

---

do you have an answer to the original question, or are you triing to convince yourself of something?

The fact is; no matter "how" you look at it, Africans played a verifiable "MAJOR" role in the creation of the modern world simply by surving slavery.....remember many first world people comming into contact with the europeans died from (LOL)simply breathing the same air as they(EUROs).
Africans, as much as it must pain you to know the truth (I know it hurts), had an equally profound impact on the ancient world as well.

I don't know what your ethnic background is but......I personally choose not to engage in escapism......I have plenty of room in my head for slavery and whatever mentality its embrace and examination causes me to have. I am a decendant and representative of those before me. WE WILL NEVER FORGET!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
The Private Lives of the Pyramid-builders

By Dr Joyce Tyldesley

[b] Who were the pyramid builders?

After comparing DNA samples taken from the workers' bones with samples taken from modern Egyptians, Dr Moamina Kamal of Cairo University Medical School has suggested that Khufu's pyramid was a truly nationwide project, with workers drawn to Giza from all over Egypt. She has discovered no trace of any alien race; human or intergalactic, as suggested in some of the more imaginative 'pyramid theories'.

'...a truly nationwide project, with workers drawn to Giza from all over Egypt.'
Effectively, it seems, the pyramid served both as a gigantic training project and - deliberately or not - as a source of 'Egyptianisation'. The workers who left their communities of maybe 50 or 100 people, to live in a town of 15,000 or more strangers, returned to the provinces with new skills, a wider outlook and a renewed sense of national unity that balanced the loss of loyalty to local traditions. The use of shifts of workers spread the burden and brought about a thorough redistribution of pharaoh's wealth in the form of rations.

Almost every family in Egypt was either directly or indirectly involved in pyramid building. The pyramid labourers were clearly not slaves. They may well have been the unwilling victims of the corvée or compulsory labour system, the system that allowed the pharaoh to compel his people to work for three or four month shifts on state projects. If this is the case, we may imagine that they were selected at random from local registers.

'Almost every family in Egypt was either directly or indirectly involved in pyramid building.'
But, in a complete reversal of the story of oppression told by Herodotus, Lehner and Hawass have suggested that the labourers may have been volunteers. Zahi Hawass believes that the symbolism of the pyramid was already strong enough to encourage people to volunteer for the supreme national project. Mark Lehner has gone further, comparing pyramid building to American Amish barn raising, which is done on a volunteer basis. He might equally well have compared it to the staffing of archaeological digs, which tend to be manned by enthusiastic, unpaid volunteers supervised by a few paid professionals.

[/B]

---

I was giving it a bit of attention until I saw Zahi Hawass somewhere in there.....

all I can say is I'm sure the study wasn't objective......

oh yeah I almost forgot my original question about this post.....

what's its point......most people who study egypt for longer than 30 minutes know and believe all that stuff.....

Your original question was:''Do we have the total population of foreigners that invaded Egypt''? I gave you sources and answers to the best of my ability. Do you wish to discuss this further?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Your original question was:''Do we have the total population of foreigners that invaded Egypt''? I gave you sources and answers to the best of my ability. Do you wish to discuss this further?

---

I actually found a couple of the books...I'm gonna pick-em up tomorrow.
thanks......

no body else had anything in the way of answering the original question though....how can we truly know the demography of ancient egypt......?
is it,deductive reasoning based on genetics, oral tradition, and physical evidence...or one of those three individually....or none of the above.....
As an African living in america, I must admit feeling, to some degree, a certain level of angst about confrontation with Native Egyptians about their history.....

quote:

---

Originally posted by AFROCENTRIST32:
I actually found a couple of the books...I'm gonna pick-em up tomorrow.
thanks......

no body else had anything in the way of answering the original question though....how can we truly know the demography of ancient egypt......?
is it,deductive reasoning based on genetics, oral tradition, and physical evidence...or one of those three individually....or none of the above.....
As a black man living in america, I must admit feeling, to some degree, a certain level of angst about confrontation with Native Egyptians about their history.....

maybe someone could touch on that as well...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Giza-Rider:
Why this information even matters?

Egypt has always had open arms for many foreigners, including BLACK AFRICANS (NUBIA AND BEYOND).[quote]
LOL Egypt WAS a part of black Africa you idiot! What boundary or line existed to seperate Egypt from the rest of Africa?!!

[quote]Personally, I believe that the people of Egypt did not change that much from the days of the Ancient Egyptians.

A recent DNA study done by a major university in Egypt proved that the people of Egypt today, are carbon copies of the people back then.

---

LMAO You really must not know anything about your history for you say that Egyptians have not changed from ancient times!! Are you suggesting that the influx of Asiatics from the Hyksos to the Persians to Arab invaders as well as Europeans from Greece and Italy have not effected the population?!!!

Poor confused Afrangi!!

quote:

---

no body else had anything in the way of answering the original question though....how can we truly know the demography of ancient egypt......?
is it,deductive reasoning based on genetics, oral tradition, and physical evidence...or one of those three individually....or none of the above..

---

Things like bio-physical anthropology can tell us if overtime if populations based off skeletal remains changed phenotypically. Genetics only tells us who has migrated in and out of a certain area over x amount of years. Most genetic studies often citied by people on the Egyptian population are of the modern population.

Please one of the posters correct me if I am wrong on the following. To get a better understanding of the ancient Egyptian population one would have to extract ancient Dna straight from the skeletal remains and reconstruct it through PCR. Not many of these have been done on ancient remains in Egypt. Only a few by a Sweedish geneticist named Swarte Paabo and a French geneticist on pre-dyanstic Naqada remains. The study on Naqada remains was published in a journal in French.

In earlier years before population genetics became standard people used ABO blood typing when studying remains in Egypt. Many outdated ABO blood-typing studies exist using ancient Egyptian remains. Some comparing them to modern populations in Egypt.

Know Geologist can sometimes estimate the demoigraphy of populations. Geologist Karl Butzer estimated that the total demography for ancient Egypt was about 2 million. Most of this 2 million lived in the area between Luxor and Aswan. The rest lived from Fayoum to the Delta. In modern Egypt it's actually the opposite where majority of the modern population lives in the rural Delta.

Here is the reference from Karl Butzer:

Karl Butzer has estimated that two areas of greatest

population

denisty in dyanstic times were between Luxor{Waset}

and Aswan

{Elephantine} at the first cataract,and from Medium at the Fayum

entrance northwards to the apex of the Delta.

In between was Middle Egypt,a geogrpahic buffer zone

with a lower

population density.

It is worth bearing in mind that the total

population of egypt at the time the Giza pyramids were built is

estimated to have been 1.6 million,compared with 58

million in AD

1995.

Page 7

Mark Lehner

The Complete Pyramids

I hope this answers part of your question.

quote:

---

As an African living in america, I must admit feeling, to some degree, a certain level of angst about confrontation with Native Egyptians about their history.....

maybe someone could touch on that as well...

---

Well, most likely if you meet an Egyptian in the West he/she either knows alot about ancient Egypt or does not know much. The issue of who is a direct desendants of the ancient Egyptians is also big politics in Egypt like everywhere else. Infact,resently you had a big debate on Egyptian television about who ruined ancient Egypt. The Coptic Christian Egyptians argued that the Arab invaders destoyed Egypt and ruined it;while the Arabs countered and said Copts were conspirators with the Romans that destoyed ancient Egyptian culture and civlization.

Having discussed with many of Egyptians I know they all tell me the original people of Egypt are the Nubians. Some will tell you Sa3eedi[Upper Egyptians] people are the original Egyptians. Some expat Coptic Christians made the same claim as you did earlier that all Egyptian Muslims are Arab invaders.[some exceptions who told me he believed that modern day Luxor-Aswani Egyptians were direct desendants,and also the Nubians because all these people were once Coptic themselves]

Although some of them maybe, I suspect a greater number of Copts are actually Greeks and Jews,for the first Christian converts in Egypt were mostly Greeks and Jews in Alexandria.

My suggestion with you is if you want to debate about this issue you study Egypt from the Greco-Roman time period to the Nasserite Revolution in 1954. Most people who study ancient Egypt gloss over the Ptolemic,Roman,Byzantine,Arab,Mameluk,and modern eras. Only when you study the history from the Greco-Roman to Nasserite Revolution in 54' can you understand the politics of modern Egypt.

quote:

---

yes, here is the link. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_07.shtml

---

What's unusual about this Dna study is that it has never been published in one journal. A selected immunologist on a PBS special studies remains that is often claimed to be pyramid builders. Even this being a village of pyramid builders is debatable itself because we really don't know how old the pyramid is. You can't carbon date stone,and so the carbon dating comes from organic materials inside or near the pyramids. Even this can be altered because modern Cairo is heavily polluted.

Since the study is not published in any journal:

quote:

---

I see. On the flip side, has there ever been a study that just comes right out and says Modern Egyptians don't look like the ancient ones?

---

Not that I have read. Neither have I read a study that said modern Egyptians resemble the ancient Egyptians. There have been anthropological studies that have stated the pre-dyanstic and dyanstic Egyptians maintained a steady phenotype untill either the New Kingdom or Late Period.

Very Few genetic studies have been published on ancient Egyptian remains. A few have been by Sweedish geneticist Swarte Paabo. Most are genetic studies on the modern population of Egypt. Here are some studies on direct ancient remains if you can find them:

Pääbo, S.: Preservation of DNA in ancient Egyptian mummies. J. Archaeol. Sci. 12: 411-417(1985)

Pääbo, S.: DNA is preserved in ancient Egyptian mummies. In: Science in Egyptology Ed David, A.R. ), Manchester Univ. Press, pp. 383-388 (1986)

Pääbo, S. and Di Rienzo, A. A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In:Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt (Eds: Davies, V., and Walker, R.),British Museum Press, pp. 86-90 (1993)

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 29 September 2005).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
We teach history from every area of the world including Africa. Many great historians and others are doing great work in these areas.
Keep in mind that most of these discplines are young in a modern sense. We are always getting better and learning more.

---

I agree that some Afrocentrists can be quite extreme in their views but Horemheb for someone
(a Professor on Near Eastern antiquities even) who so vehemently opposes the idea of a Black African Egypt have you ever actually seen the image of the man who's username you use?

Can you honestly look this statue in the face and say that he doesn't in any way resemble a tropical African with his full lips and broad nose?