Population = Mandenka Senegalese->n = 16, E(xE3b)= 93.8%, E-M78^a = 6.3%.

Population = Tuareg from Niger-> n = 22, E(xE3b) = 63.6%, E-M78^a = 4.5%.

Population = Moyan Atlas Berbers-> n = 69, E(xE3b) = 5.8%, E-M78^a = 10.1%.

Population = Marrakesh Berbers-> n = 29, E(xE3b) = 3.4%, E-M78^a = 6.9%.

Population = Northern Egyptians-> n = 21, E(xE3b) = Not Available, E-M78^a = 28.6%.

Population = Southern Egyptians-> n = 34, E(xE3b) = Not Available, E-M78^a = 17.6%.

Population = Somali-> n = 23, E(xE3b) = Not Available, E-M78^a = 52.2%.

Population = Borana from Kenya-> n = 7, E(xE3b) = 14.3%, E-M78^a = 71.4%.

Source: Crucian et al.

I can't help but notice that the Senegalese frequency of E-M78 [6.3%] is visible, considering the Taureg frequency of 4.5%, of course excluding other E3b members such as E-M78 gamma and E-M81, for which the Tuareg frequency was 4.5% and 9.1% respectively, while there was none available in the Senegalese sample for the latter two.

Courtesy of Wikipedia

So what can be said about E3b presence as far as the west African coast, given that, we know that the Tuareg languages ideally correlate with the idea of Afrasan language expansions corresponding largely with E3b derived lineages? Could these folks have originally spoken some Afrasan language, or admixture with Afrasan language speakers, whom due to the predominance of Niger-Congo language group speakers, adopted the predominantly spoken languages in the region? What other explanations could there be without involving Afrasan language speakers? Also, we know about E3a presence in the Nile Valley, for instance, in Upper Egypt and Lower "Nubia". Apparently, the answer lies in the Sahara; which brings me to the question of the possible region of the split between E3b and E3a lineages. Ideas are welcome!

The predominent and most unusual Tuareg lineage is E1, which is found among and around the Tuareg and almost no other population.

E1, like PN2 [E3] is a derivative of E.

E1 has been as far afield as Portugal assocated with ancient A lineage but not E3a
and with an estimated coalescence date in Southern Europe of 20k~ or more, meaning predating the split of E3a from Pn2.

In my opinion in terms of Y lineage, East vs. West Africa has no descernable meaning before the E3a/E3b split.

For example E3 [pn2] and ancestor of E3a and E3b is essentially found only in Ethiopia, E1 which is just as old or older has been in NW Africa since the late Paleolithic.

DE*, which is even older, and an ancestor to the entire E line, has thus far been found only in Nigeria.

Let's bear in mind, that when we talk about the birth of languages...such as Berber, we are only going back 6/7,000 years and for Cushite languages such as Beja, perhaps 8,000 years.

Now, based on Sforza's autosomal data, the Beja and Tuareg likely split about 5,000 years ago in East Africa.

Given that E3b2 has been in the Nile Valley since the Neolithic, E3a since the Holocene, and E3b1 since the Paleolithic, it's hard to see how much more Y chromosome data 'alone' can narrow down the migration patterns.

What I find interesting about the Tuareg/Beja connection is the way the historical, linguistic and genetic evidence converge, along with physical anthropology.

I suspect that when we learn more about the Tuareg/Beja relationship, along with other ancient Saharan/Sahelien groups such as the Teda, the Siwa and others, a great deal of mythology surrounding the Berber and Nubians will likely be shattered.

These are the Medijay from Dynastic Egypt.

They are the ancestors of the Beja, who are related to the Tuareg, whose forebearers are possibly the Tehenu from Kemetic texts, and related to the Siwa of Modern Egypt.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
E1 has been as far afield as Portugal assocated with ancient A lineage but not E3a
and with an estimated coalescence date in Southern Europe of 20k~ or more, meaning predating the split of E3a from Pn2.

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...as Goncalves et al. points out:

2005

"The prescence in Portugal of both the A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade (otherwise E3a would be well represented since it comprises the majority of West African lineages). These findings either suggest a pre-neolithic migration from North Africa or a more recent origin from a founder population of small size that did not carry haplogroup E3a, which is a major component in North African populations today. TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 +/- 7.2 ky favors the first scenario..."

quote:

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In my opinion in terms of Y lineage, East vs. West Africa has no descernable meaning before the E3a/E3b split.

For example E3 [pn2] and ancestor of E3a and E3b is essentially found only in Ethiopia, E1 which is just as old or older has been in NW Africa since the late Paleolithic.

DE*, which is even older, and an ancestor to the entire E line, has thus far been found only in Nigeria.

Let's bear in mind, that when we talk about the birth of languages...such as Berber, we are only going back 6/7,000 years and for Cushite languages such as Beja, perhaps 8,000 years.

Now, based on Sforza's autosomal data, the Beja and Tuareg likely split about 5,000 years ago in East Africa.

Given that E3b2 has been in the Nile Valley since the Neolithic, E3a since the Holocene, and E3b1 since the Paleolithic, it's hard to see how much more Y chromosome data 'alone' can narrow down the migration patterns.

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Right, which is why we deal with other matters like linguistics, and possible cultural ties with the help of archeology!

So I gather from this, are you saying the region of the split can't be determined from current data? or...

quote:

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rasol:
What I find interesting about the Tuareg/Beja connection is the way the historical, linguistic and genetic evidence converge, along with physical anthropology.

I suspect that when we learn more about the Tuareg/Beja relationship, along with other ancient Saharan/Sahelien groups such as the Teda, the Siwa and others, a great deal of mythology surrounding the Berber and Nubians will likely be shattered.

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What "mythologies" are being referred to here?

I do suspect that when E3b1 lineages derived from E3b*M35, there were probably some substantial E3, E3a and or E1 populations living in the West Sahel area, thus those are the lineages which spread to West Africa, while E3b spread throughout SouthEast Africa, the horn into the NorthWest and across the Levant.

Semino et al
2004

Frequency PN2/E3
The four populations with ancestral E3:

Oromo 12.8%
Amhara 10.4%
Senegalese 2.9%
Bantu (SA) 1.9%

Thought Writes:

It seems that PN2 evolved in the Rift Valley prior to the LGM. E3b also evolved in this region prior to the LGM. E3b is found in lower frequencies in West Africa than in East Africa. Hence it seems that E3 spread to West Africa well before the derived date for E3b which is between 30kya and 25kya.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

Semino et al
2004

Frequency PN2/E3
The four populations with ancestral E3:

Oromo 12.8%
Amhara 10.4%
Senegalese 2.9%
Bantu (SA) 1.9%

Thought Writes:

It seems that PN2 evolved in the Rift Valley prior to the LGM. E3b also evolved in this region prior to the LGM. E3b is found in lower frequencies in West Africa than in East Africa. Hence it seems that E3 spread to West Africa well before the derived date fro E3b which is between 30kya and 25kya.

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 06 October 2005).]

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I didn't know about PN2 in Senegal.

Thx!

Slightly off-topic, but this might be an interesting read given more up to date information on the phylogeny of E3a (YAP + haplotype 5) and E3b (YAP + haplotype 4):

Thought Posts:

Hum Biol. 1999 Oct;71(5):745-55.

African and Levantine origins of Pakistani YAP+ Y chromosomes.

Qamar R, Ayub Q, Khaliq S, Mansoor A, Karafet T, Mehdi SQ, Hammer MF.

Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Khan Research Laboratories, Islamabad, Pakistan.

We surveyed 9 Pakistani subpopulations for variation on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome. The polymorphic systems examined were the Y-chromosome Alu insertion polymorphism (YAP) at DYS287, 5 single nucleotide polymorphisms, and the tetranucleotide microsatellite DYS19. Y chromosomes carrying the YAP element (YAP+) were found in populations from southwestern Pakistan at frequencies ranging from 2% to 8%, whereas northeastern populations appeared to lack YAP+ chromosomes. In contrast to other South Asian populations, several Pakistani subpopulations had a high frequency of the DYS19*B allele, the most frequent allele in West Asian, North African, and European populations. The combination of alleles at all polymorphic sites gave rise to 9 YAP-DYS19 combination haplotypes in Pakistani populations, including YAP+ haplotypes 4-A, 4-B, 5-C, and 5-E. We hypothesize that the geographic distributions of YAP+ haplotypes 4 and 5 trace separate migratory routes to Pakistan: YAP+ haplotype 5 may have entered Pakistan from the Arabian Peninsula by means of migrations across the Gulf of Oman, whereas males possessing YAP+ haplotype 4 may have traveled over land from the Middle East. These inferences are consistent with ethnohistorical data suggesting that Pakistan's ethnic groups have been influenced by migrations from both African and Levantine source populations.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

Semino et al
2004

Frequency PN2/E3
The four populations with ancestral E3:

Oromo 12.8%
Amhara 10.4%
Senegalese 2.9%
Bantu (SA) 1.9%

Thought Writes:

It seems that PN2 evolved in the Rift Valley prior to the LGM. E3b also evolved in this region prior to the LGM. E3b is found in lower frequencies in West Africa than in East Africa. Hence it seems that E3 spread to West Africa well before the derived date for E3b which is between 30kya and 25kya.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Doubtlessly, this piece of information obviously helps. If my memory serves me correctly, I heard elsewhere from someone, that the E3a may have originated among Atlantic west African populations like, the Senegalese. Are there any indications, as to where the oldest M2 derived lineages appear. This might possible narrow the mystery down a bit.

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Thought Posts:

The oldest E3a lineage is E3a*

Frequencies of E3a*
Semino et al 2004

Senegalese 80.6%
Burkino Faso 67.9%
South Cameroon 43.8%
Bantu (SA) 54.7%

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

The oldest E3a lineage is E3a*

Frequencies of E3a*
Semino et al 2004

Senegalese 80.6%
Burkino Faso 67.9%
South Cameroon 43.8%
Bantu (SA) 54.7%

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quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
But does this really say much, in terms of the population which might have carried the mutation from the region [yet to be defined] where the split occurred?

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Thought Writes:

1) E3a* and E3a is pretty much non-existant in the Horn of Africa. The lineage seems to be West African.

2) The Senegalese are one of **FOUR** populations that seem to carry the ancestral E3 lineage.

3) Coincidentally the Senegalese also have the highest frequency of E3a*.

This seems to indicate that a population ancestral to the modern Senegalese served as the bridge between E3 and E3a*. We need to study the ecology and archaeology of this region (and the Rift Valley) before the LGM to learn more at this point.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

1) E3a* and E3a is pretty much non-existant in the Horn of Africa. The lineage seems to be West African.

2) The Senegalese are one of **FOUR** populations that seem to carry the ancestral E3 lineage.

3) Coincidentally the Senegalese also have the highest frequency of E3a*.

This seems to indicate that a population ancestral to the modern Senegalese served as the bridge between E3 and E3a*. We need to study the ecology and archaeology of this region (and the Rift Valley) before the LGM to learn more at this point.

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