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Author Topic: rasol, Supercar, Thought2 and Ausar
Charlie_Bass
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Are you guys here now? C. Loring Brace just sent me a manuscript/study and I need some help with interpeting the data. Needless to say, the data will make Evil Europe mad. Here are some extracts from the study worth noting:


The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form.

C. Loring Brace,*† Noriko Seguchi,‡ Conrad B. Quintyn,§ Sherry C. Fox,
A. Russell Nelson,ý Sotiris K. Manolis** & Pan Qifeng‡‡

*†Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109;
‡Department of Anthropology, Universitiy of Montana, Missoula, Montana 59812;
§Department of Anthropology, Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania, Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania, 17815-1301;
Weiner Laboratory, The American School of Classical Studies in Athens, Greece;

ýDepartment of Anthropology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, Wyoming 82071;
**Faculty of Biology, National & Kapodistrian University of Athens, Athens, Greece;
‡‡Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Beijing 100710, People’s Republic of China

"The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to sub-Saharan Africa."


"Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This suggests that there may have been a sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians — the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic — although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples."


"If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element. At the same time, the failure of the Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in central and northern Europe to tie to the modern inhabitants supports the suggestion that, while a farming mode of subsistence was spread westward and also north to Crimea and east to Mongolia by actual movement of communities of farmers, the indigenous foragers in each of those areas ultimately absorbed both the agricultural subsistence strategy and also the people who had brought it. The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained. This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone (6, 9, 32-33, 47-48), but this is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared."

I have the study in my e-mail, just ask and I will e-mail it out to you all.



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rasol
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You rock Charlie!

Anyway you can add this info to your study group?


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Charlie_Bass
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
You rock Charlie!

Anyway you can add this info to your study group?



I already added it to the yahoo group. This study was just handed in for presentation at a meeting. Dr. Brace was kind enough to send me a copy of the manuscript before it was published.


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ausar
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Charlie, are you sure that Dr. Brace would want you to post it on a public forum? I have some emails I personall responded with,but I always get permission before I post it in a public forum.


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Charlie_Bass
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quote:
Originally posted by ausar:

Charlie, are you sure that Dr. Brace would want you to post it on a public forum? I have some emails I personall responded with,but I always get permission before I post it in a public forum.


Its available through my e-mail and no place else


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Supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:

I already added it to the yahoo group.


Good. I look forward to it!

Ps - The study re-confirms what others had already found out or acknowledged about the Natufians, as demonstrated by Ms. Garrod, L.Angel,or Furon, to be later backed by molecular genetics [Neolithic expansion of farming communities].


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rasol
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Prima facie, it is a very clear and coherent explanation of the European Neolithic.

And it is consistent with findings reported by Angel, Keita, Yosif, Ehret and others.

I would also humbly recommend that they broaden their sampling of Africans which would enhance the accuracy of these studies.

The picture presented - is one of the Neolithic European populations differing somewhat from modern Europeans - in the direction of Africans and Western Asians.

According to the Brace paper, these populations and their advanced technologies were absorbed by indigenous Europeans.

This makes sense.

There appears to be something close to anthropological concensus on these facts.

As for Dienekes & his lackeys - they are caught in an Opium Pipe dream Carelton Coonian K-zoid time warp.

Modern bioanthropology has simply passed them by.

I look foward to their desparate dissembling with regards to this latest study.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 08 October 2005).]


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Supercar
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Pretty much concur with the above.


On another note, a point was also made about the Cro-Magnon crania...

"...the oft-repeated European feeling that the Cro-Magnons are “us” (46) is more a product of anthropological folklore than the result of the metric data available from the skeletal remains." - Brace et al.


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Charlie_Bass
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quote:
Originally posted by Super car:
Pretty much concur with the above.


On another note, a point was also made about the Cro-Magnon crania...

"...the oft-repeated European feeling that the Cro-Magnons are “us” (46) is more a product of anthropological folklore than the result of the metric data available from the skeletal remains." - Brace et al.



What I find even more damaging for EE is that Brace states that Neolithic Europeans do not closely resemble the modern inhabitants and instead cluster together. This also is damaging to EE argument:

"When the Basques are run with the other samples used in Fig. 1, they link with Germany and more remotely with the Canary Islands. They are clearly European although the length of their twig indicates that they have a distinction all their own. "

i remember EE trying to saying that basques were "Mediterranean" looking carriers of high-frequencies of R1b, but that isn't the case now since we see that they cluster closer to Germans according to craniofacial analyses.


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Thought2
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Thought Writes:

I am glad that Brace finally came out and stated the facts. Good job, sir.

Thought Posts:

http://www.richardpoe.com/forum.cgi?article=&x=2004-11-28+07:26:12

"Berberish writes:

Read the paper by Dr. C. Loring Brace because he explains it very well.

Thought writes:

I have read Dr. Brace’s paper on this subject and held personal communications with him. He acknowledges the tropical adaptation of early East Africans and Egyptians, although he finds that these populations have phenotypes that are adapted to a hot/dry climate instead of a hot/moist climate like West Africans. He does not address recent genetic evidence.

By the way he has also found evidence for a Mesolithic migration from East Africa and into the Levant (personal communication).

=========================
Originally submitted 11.25.04

Thought
11/28/04"

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 09 October 2005).]


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Thought2
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Charlie,

I would like you to email it to me, but I don't want some of the **CREEPS** like Evil E to get access to my email. How can we make this happen?


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Supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Charlie,

I would like you to email it to me, but I don't want some of the **CREEPS** like Evil E to get access to my email. How can we make this happen?


Might be able to facilitate that through the Bass's yahoo site, or else, since you can apparently get a hold of Ausar through the publically available e-mail address, you can pass it onto him, and he can relay the message to Charlie. At that point, Charlie should be able to directly forward it to you.

The alternative would be for you to get Charlie's email address from Ausar, through that same e-mail venue mentioned, and then send him [Charlie] e-mail. Again, at that point, Charlie should be able to respond...just a thought.


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Super car:
Might be able to facilitate that through the Bass's yahoo site, or else, since you can apparently get a hold of Ausar through the publically available e-mail address, you can pass it onto him, and he can relay the message to Charlie. At that point, Charlie should be able to directly forward it to you.

The alternative would be for you to get Charlie's email address from Ausar, through that same e-mail venue mentioned, and then send him [Charlie] e-mail. Again, at that point, Charlie should be able to respond...just a thought.


Thanks!


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Charlie_Bass
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Charlie,

I would like you to email it to me, but I don't want some of the **CREEPS** like Evil E to get access to my email. How can we make this happen?


Just send me an e-mail at cr_rigaud@yahoo.com and I will forward it to you.


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Supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass: Just send me an e-mail at cr_rigaud@yahoo.com and I will forward it to you.


Well, Charlie made it even simpler.


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Charlie_Bass
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I might need for guys to do the job of interpreting the data better than I can, I have to preach this Sunday and I don't how I'm going to do that now that I'm up so late, lol. IMO, ts always a good thing to e-mail the professionals, I've conversed through e-mail with everyone from Brace, Keita, Underhill, and Salas et tal to Wilson Tishkoff and Kidd and they all give a much better insight into their own writings as opposed to the dodona type of taking laymen interpretations as facts, such as this
http://www.seo-blog.org/13268_charlies_anthropology_and_race_blogspot

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Charlie_Bass
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Chart of clustering, notice where the Natufian sample lies:


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Thought2
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Thought Writes:

I just sent you my email address.


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Charlie_Bass
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quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I just sent you my email address.


I forwarded the study to you about 10 minutes ago. Hopefully it arrived.


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Evil Euro
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While the Afronuts are busy creaming themselves, let's take a look at what Brace ACTUALLY says:

"This suggests that there may have been a sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians — the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic — although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples.

"It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to sub-Saharan Africa. [...] If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present."


Just as inconclusive as the Angel quote they drool over:

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecessors of the Badarians and Tasians...."



quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
i remember EE trying to saying that basques were "Mediterranean" looking carriers of high-frequencies of R1b, but that isn't the case now since we see that they cluster closer to Germans according to craniofacial analyses.

You have a serious problem with reading comprehension that even surpasses your inability to do simple math. That passage does NOT assert that Basques are the same as Germans. It simply establishes that they're "clearly European" based on their affinities with the European samples. It goes on to say that they have "a distinction all their own", and in the dendrogram you posted afterwards, they fall in the same branch as Canary Islanders, which is itself between the Modern European and Modern Mediterranean branches.

Basques are indeed a predominantly "Mediterranean-looking" people:


Chapter XI: The Mediterranean World

(17) The Basques

"The Basques are basically Mediterranean (in the wider sense) racially, with some brachycephalic accretion."

"The Basques, as a whole, represent an ancient and subsequently specialized mixture of Mediterraneans and Atlanto-Mediterraneans with partially blond Dinarics."

-- Coon, TRoE






[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 09 October 2005).]


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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
Chart of clustering, notice where the Natufian sample lies:



Devastating. Simply devastating.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 09 October 2005).]


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Charlie_Bass
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quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
While the Afronuts are busy creaming themselves, let's take a look at what Brace ACTUALLY says:

I posted what Brace actually said, no need to repeat it you sore loser, just accept it, and while we're at it, why did you forget this passage:


"If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived,[b] there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element
."


by the way, I e-mailed Brace after I received this manuscript and certainly believes there was sub-Saharan element from Africa in the Natufians, now quote me a study thats says this sub-Saharan element is actually throwback primitive traits.


He says there clearly was a sub-Saharan element in the Natufians and says its doucmented archealogically and now confirmed according to skeletal analyses


quote:
You have a serious problem with reading comprehension that even surpasses

No you have a serious reading comprehension problem:

"When the Basques are run with the other samples used in Fig. 1, they link with Germany and more remotely with the Canary Islands. They are clearly European although the length of their twig indicates that they have a distinction all their own. "

Since EE believes that craniofacial similarity is congruent with race is he going to suggest Germans are Mediterraneans? Just as he believes Somalis are craniofacially "Caucasoid", despite the fact that if you post pictures of Somalis phenotypically they look nothing like Europeans.


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Supercar
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
Chart of clustering, notice where the Natufian sample lies:


Let’s do a comprehensive analysis on this study, if you will...

The study re-confirms what has already been found out by Ms. Garrod, L. Angel, even James Harris and Edward Wente, Furon [and now Brace] who attribute the said "Negroid" characteristics to crossbreeding.

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction off body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....". - L. Angel.

Of course, Angel is not in doubt about the "Negroid" traits or the fact that they are attributable to crossbreeding with populations coming from south of the Nile River Valley; he just connot say with absoluteness, the "specific" population(s) that were involved. The question of being absolute about the specifics of the population is quite trivial. The important point that needs to be taken away from this, is the population movements of tropical Africans from the Nile Valley, into the Levant, and eventually Europe. The job of narrowing it down to the specifics of ancestral populations involved in the gene flow along the Nile, has been taken by molecular genetics, from which we have learnt that sub-Saharan Hg E lineages made their way into Europe during the Neolithic expansion, with sub-Saharan E3b1 originating among Cushitic speaking East Africans. These folks must have been responsible for spreading it to the "Nubian" populations, and then via the predecessors of the Badarians and Tasians, made their way into the Levant, and ultimately Europe.

Now, to Brace et al., as shown in the plot above,...

"the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used." - Brace et al.

"This suggests that there may have been a sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians - the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic - although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples."

This just but one of the variables used here, and hence, the terminology "suggests". It has revealed what is referred to as "sub-Saharan African element", and this is one area I feel that Brace et al have a weakness. It is likely that these are in reference to stereotypical "sub-Saharan" craniofacial traits like those found among Niger-Congo speakers. Craniometry has its limitations in providing a bigger picture, and I know this, because earlier we have seen that indigenous ancient Egyptians largely had a tropical body plan:

"The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." - Sonia R. Zakrzewski

And the picture gets even clearer, when we consider this:

"...the Somalis and the Egyptian Bronze Age sample from Naqada may also have a hint of a sub-Saharan African component."

Given that we know where the Somalis live and what they look like, the fact that the line "a hint of a sub-Saharan African component" is used here, should be revealing. Somalis are sub-Saharan Africans, and like the indigenous ancient Egyptians, have tropical body plans.

Also consider this...

"The Niger-Congo speakers, Congo, Dahomey and Haya, cluster closely with each other and a bit less closely with the Nubian sample - both the recent and the Bronze Age Nubians - and more remotely with the Naqada Bronze Age sample of Egypt, the modern Somalis, and the Arabic-speaking Fellaheen (farmers) of Israel. When those samples are separated and run in a single analysis as in Fig. 1, there clearly is a tie between them that is diluted the farther one gets from sub-Saharan Africa."

We should also keep in mind the regional representation of sampling:


  • "Czech, Denmark, England, Etruscan, Finn/Sami, France, Germany, Iceland, Norway, Sardinia and Swiss samples are combined to make a sample designated as “Modern Europe."

  • "Algeria, Berber, Greece, Iran/Iraq, Italy, Morocco, Sicily and Tunisia samples were combined to generate a “Modern Mediterranean” twig,"

  • "Algerian Neolithic was run as a separate twig."

  • "Congo, Dahomey and Haya samples were run as a “Niger-Congo” twig."

  • "Neolithic samples from Denmark, England, France, Germany and Portugal were combined with Bronze Age samples from England, Jericho and *Mongolia to make a “Late Prehistoric Eurasia”

    *Mongolia is a long way east of any of the other samples used, but it has previously been shown that the Mongolian Bronze Age sample is unrelated to modern Mongols and has more in common with prehistoric Europeans and the Native Americans of the US-Canada border (17)."

  • "Portuguese Mesolithic, Greek Neolithic, Italy Eneolithic, and Swiss Neolithic samples and the Italian and Greek Bronze Age samples were combined to make a “Prehistoric Mediterranean” twig."

  • "Naqada Bronze Age Egyptian, the Nubian, Nubia Bronze Age, Israeli Fellaheen (Arabic farmers) and Somali samples were lumped as “Prehistoric/Recent Northeast Africa.”"

  • "The Natufians and the Algerian Neolithic samples were run as separate twigs,"

  • separate twigs for Basques and Canary Islanders.

In my opinion, another weakness in this study, is the lower regional distribution of what is dubbed as "Niger-Congo" twig.

Another important thing to take away from this study, is the fact that Neolithic European crania are distinct from the "living" inhabitants of Europe, with the Neolithic remains tying more with the southern/ Med. Europeans than the northern Europeans:

"The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe."

"...in spite of the very small numbers involved, the Late Pleistocene samples from Israel, Europe, and North Aftica tend to link to each other before they tie to the **modern representatives** of each of the areas in question as shown in Fig. 1."

Given what we already know about the Natufians, i.e., the sub-Saharan affiliations...

"In that run, the Natufian of Israel ties to the French Mesolithic and then to the Afalou/Taforalt sample from North Africa. These then link with the European Upper Palaeolithic sample and, somewhat surprisingly, with the Chandman - the Mongolian Bronze Age sample - and finally, at the next step, with the Danish Neolithic."

"non-metric attributes all support the view that most of the Neolithic inhabitants of Europe tie more closely together with each other than with the living representatives of the areas in question...

The principal exception to this generalization is one of the two small samples of the German Neolithic, the Mühlhausen sample, which ties closer metrically to the living inhabitants of the Middle East and North Africa.[Not living northern Europeans]"

But...

"Metrically the other German Neolithic sample, Tauberbischofsheim, links with the living Central European samples"

"Non-metrically, those two small German Neolithic samples also appear strikingly different from each other."


The case of the Basques is also interesting...

"When the Basques are run with the other samples used in Fig. 1, they link with Germany and more remotely with the Canary Islands. They are clearly European although the length of their twig indicates that they have a distinction all their own."

"It is clear, however, that they do not represent a survival of the kind of craniofacial form indicated by Cro-Magnon **any more** than do the Canary Islanders, **nor** does either sample tie in with the Berbers of North Africa as has previously been claimed (37, 44-45...

Clearly Cro-Magnon is not the same as the Basque or Canary Island samples." - Brace et al.

Keeping in mind, that earlier, the "Berbers" [likely coastal Berbers], were placed here...

"Algeria, Berber, Greece, Iran/Iraq, Italy, Morocco, Sicily and Tunisia samples were combined to generate a "Modern Mediterranean" twig,"

This indicates that Basques don’t resemble Meds. like Italians or Greeks; at least not craniofacially.

And using the same variables that were used in the above finding, i.e., "18 variables are used to generate a plot of the first two canonical variates",...

"In this one can see a clear link between the Niger-Congo sample and the Natufians. The Prehistoric/Recent Northeast African sample also has a subsequent link to the Niger-Congo sample in Fig. 3."


And now, to the conclusions, as per Brace et al.:


  • The assessment of prehistoric and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports the picture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture from the Near East westward to Europe and across North Africa was accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11-15).

  • If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element.

  • ...the failure of the Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in central and northern Europe to tie to the modern inhabitants supports the suggestion that,...

    while a farming mode of subsistence was spread westward and also north to Crimea and east to Mongolia by actual movement of communities of farmers, the indigenous foragers in each of those areas ultimately absorbed both the agricultural subsistence strategy and also the people who had brought it.

  • The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained.

And last, but not least...


  • This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone (6, 9, 32-33, 47-48), but this is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared.

Indeed, the idea that "Negroid" characteristics found in Natufians and Neolithic farmers,...

"[The caves of Erq-el-Ahmar] . . . produced 132 individuals for Miss Garrod. All these Natufians share the same physical type, completely different from that of earlier Palestinians. They are short, about 160 cm.* and dolichocephalic. They were probably Cro-Magnoid Mediterraneans, presenting certain Negroid characteristics attributable to crossbreeding..." - Furon

...aside from the questionable "Cro-Magnoid" mention), is attributable to CROSSBREEDING, is not in doubt. It is the consensus reached by archeology, craniometry, and molecular genetics.


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Evil Euro
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
why did you forget this passage:

"If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element."


I didn't forget it, Illiterate One. I quoted it and highlighted the word "If" -- which means that Brace doesn't know.

quote:
Since EE believes that craniofacial similarity is congruent with race is he going to suggest Germans are Mediterraneans?

No, I'm going to suggest that Germans are Caucasoid, as are Basques, hence their craniofacial similarity. In the dendrogram, Basques place in the same cluster as Northern, Central and Southern Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners, demonstrating the unity of the Caucasoid race (Nordics, Alpines, Mediterraneans etc.).


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Thought2
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quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:

I didn't forget it, Illiterate One. I quoted it and highlighted the word "If" -- which means that Brace doesn't know.


Thought Writes:

Hi Evil E,

No statistical data series is without a margin of error, hence absolute terms are allways inaccurate.


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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
While the Afronuts are busy creaming themselves,

ROFL, I've read this along time ago, but since the subject's up again I'll post:

this has to go up there with the vice-versa (rasol's) names for E Monkey, like Euro Monky, Euro Ginny, Spineless Ginny, and most accurately, Euro-Disney.

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Ru2religious
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Bass:
Are you guys here now? C. Loring Brace just sent me a manuscript/study and I need some help with interpeting the data. Needless to say, the data will make Evil Europe mad. Here are some extracts from the study worth noting:


The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form.

C. Loring Brace,*† Noriko Seguchi,‡ Conrad B. Quintyn,§ Sherry C. Fox,
A. Russell Nelson,ý Sotiris K. Manolis** & Pan Qifeng‡‡

*†Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109;
‡Department of Anthropology, Universitiy of Montana, Missoula, Montana 59812;
§Department of Anthropology, Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania, Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania, 17815-1301;
Weiner Laboratory, The American School of Classical Studies in Athens, Greece;

ýDepartment of Anthropology, University of Wyoming, Laramie, Wyoming 82071;
**Faculty of Biology, National & Kapodistrian University of Athens, Athens, Greece;
‡‡Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Beijing 100710, People’s Republic of China

"The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to sub-Saharan Africa."


"Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This suggests that there may have been a sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians — the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic — although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples."


"If the late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, there was clearly a sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element. At the same time, the failure of the Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in central and northern Europe to tie to the modern inhabitants supports the suggestion that, while a farming mode of subsistence was spread westward and also north to Crimea and east to Mongolia by actual movement of communities of farmers, the indigenous foragers in each of those areas ultimately absorbed both the agricultural subsistence strategy and also the people who had brought it. The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained. This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone (6, 9, 32-33, 47-48), but this is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared."

I have the study in my e-mail, just ask and I will e-mail it out to you all.

Can the full study be placed on this forum Charles Bass?

If so it would be appreciated ...

Thanks in advance!

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xyyman
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ditto

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
While the Afronuts are busy creaming themselves,

ROFL, I've read this along time ago, but since the subject's up again I'll post:

this has to go up there with the vice-versa (rasol's) names for E Monkey, like Euro Monky, Euro Ginny, Spineless Ginny, and most accurately, Euro-Disney.

Not to mention Euro-Disneys references to 'creaming' afro-'nuts'.

Someone's venting some feelings of inadequecy. [Big Grin]


for the rest of you - this thread is old and the full study has been readily available on the internet and linked to many times.

and no, i won't link to it again..... find it.

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Ru2religious
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Yes!

I was being extremely lazy ... I don't think that I was focusing on this board when this thread appeared or when the information was posted.

Never the less, I've found the information ...

Peace!~

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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Not to mention Euro-Disneys references to 'creaming' afro-'nuts'.

Someone's venting some feelings of inadequecy. [Big Grin]

Lol, rasol knows what's up

quote:
for the rest of you - this thread is old and the full study has been readily available on the internet and linked to many times.

and no, i won't link to it again..... find it.

forreal, it's linked to so many times on this very forum.

The one that seems impossible to get a hold of is the 1993 study.

I'm new to this, but in using studies to refute contrived Dienekes 'facts', I've found the newer studies more useful and so don't see as much merit in digging for the older stuff. I have looked for Brace '93, though. (the Dienekes quotes, I figure are modified because of the use of 'caucasoid' and other like terms which I've gladly learned from this site are .. worse than useless)

For instance this site doesn't appear to have the '93 Brace study, yet it has the answers to that questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form - the study in question. (How's that RU2/RU Serious ?)

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Ru2religious
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quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Not to mention Euro-Disneys references to 'creaming' afro-'nuts'.

Someone's venting some feelings of inadequecy. [Big Grin]

Lol, rasol knows what's up

quote:
for the rest of you - this thread is old and the full study has been readily available on the internet and linked to many times.

and no, i won't link to it again..... find it.

forreal, it's linked to so many times on this very forum.

The one that seems impossible to get a hold of is the 1993 study.

I'm new to this, but in using studies to refute contrived Dienekes 'facts', I've found the newer studies more useful and so don't see as much merit in digging for the older stuff. I have looked for Brace '93, though. (the Dienekes quotes, I figure are modified because of the use of 'caucasoid' and other like terms which I've gladly learned from this site are .. worse than useless)

For instance this site doesn't appear to have the '93 Brace study, yet it has the answers to that questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form - the study in question. (How's that RU2/RU Serious ?)

That's perfect ... lol ...

I found the .pdf file for this information as well.

Thanks ...

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Whatbox
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Your very welcome.

Thanks for your time, and for posting that awesome post on true Biblical perspective.

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Sundjata
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quote:
The one that seems impossible to get a hold of is the 1993 study.
I linked the 93 study in another thread.. It's on Myra's site..

http://wysinger.homestead.com/brace.pdf

Bookmark the webpage below as it is very useful.

http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita.html

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Whatbox
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Thanks!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:

http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita.html



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