posted
Would you see this lady on the street and say, "there goes a white lady." How do you view her since there were a good many AE who resembled her while some resembled other africans including khoisan and west africans. Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Keins: Would you see this lady on the street and say, "there goes a white lady." How do you view her since there were a good many AE who resembled her while some resembled other africans including khoisan and west africans.
I don't think you are familiar with Africans or you are an African for that matter, because so called Caucasian people from Europe or Western Asian look like hybrids between broad faced Bantus or Western Africans and Elongated Eastern Africans. That Somali woman looks like a typical African: very long and small nose, long face, and most importantly: small cranium, whereas Eurasian woman have broader faces, bigger cranium and more masculine features (bigger nose, stronger jaws)...That's the kind of details that are ignored in scientific studies, that's why so often Somali or other Eastern African cluster with non African, because those details are ignored. But in real life that's what counts: details. In East Africa, that's the kind of stuff we pick up. Just take one half of Iman and another half of that Bantu lady from cameroon: and you get the phenotype below:
Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 14 October 2005).]
posted
I'm very familiar with the various african phenotypes if you really understood my question you would see the sarcasm in the post. I know many europeans (especially eastern) have wider and broader features than some africans (more so eastern africans although not exclusive to east africans). However thanks for the pics to help drill the point home.
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: I don't think you are familiar with Africans or you are an African for that matter, because so called Caucasian people from Europe or Western Asian look like hybrids between broad faced Bantus or Western Africans and Elongated Eastern Africans. That Somali woman looks like a typical African: very long and small nose, long face, and most importantly: small cranium, whereas Eurasian woman have broader faces, bigger cranium and more masculine features (bigger nose, stronger jaws)...That's the kind of details that are ignored in scientific studies, that's why so often Somali or other Eastern African cluster with non African, because those details are ignored. But in real life that's what counts: details. In East Africa, that's the kind of stuff we pick up. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 14 October 2005).]
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Keins: I'm very familiar with the various african phenotypes if you really understood my question you would see the sarcasm in the post. I know many europeans (especially eastern) have wider and broader features than some africans (more so eastern africans although not exclusive to east africans). However thanks for the pics to help drill the point home.
There is another mistake made by some posters, indeed some think that Ancient Egyptians looked like Somalis, I think it's wrong, they probably looked more like Amhara who vary between Elongated Eastern Africans and more broad faced Semitic and Nilo-Saharan speaking people. Even today if you go to Upper Egypt, many people could pass easily for broad faced Africans. It's an error that is always made on this forum, ancient Egyptian looked like broad faced Africans and Eastern Elongated Africans. Genetically they had both E3a and E3b genetic markers, by the way they are just markers and are not related to phenotypes as was proved on other threads (Tutsis have essentially E3a in their blood) Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 14 October 2005).]
posted
You might have misunderstood Keins, Relaxx.
His question is rhetorical.
I would only add:
Most people are not chronically dishonest and cynical.
Consequently they don't understand K-zoid pseudoscience.
Frauds like Dienekes & race reality [and certain others who even pretend to be Somali or Ethiopian] do not in fact regard themselves as having any affinity with Black Africans, be they Tutsi, Somali or Zulu.
They simply are looking for a way to deal with the reality of the African origins of Km.t and even the Neolithic in the Medit. region.
This requires them to invent a notion of an ancient African white-race catagory [K-Zoid] in order to purge the stain [as they see it] of African influence in their own history.
Logic is completely irrelevant to these racists.
They are motivated soley by hate. Hatred alone determines what they choose to believe, and they will not accept any fact that destroys their racist world view.
Keins, I figure you know this, and you are really addressing others. It's not enough to be intelligent, you also have to understand the psychology of bigotry.
So, here's rule number one:
Never attempt to persuade a bigot with logic.
If that is your objective then they can defeat it simply by being stupid which is their forte' at any rate.
Instead, remember the goal is to expose them as the defeated frauds they are;
Dienekes is a defeated fraud.
Racial Reality, aka [Euro Trash] is a defeated fraud.
use them in order to educate others;
force them to reveal their intellectual bankruptcy for all to see;
expose their racist motives and underlying self hatred that feeds it;
ignore them;
or simply humiliate them.
But never, ever, try to convince them.
When you do that, you lend them a dignity they do not deserve to begin with.
And never let Dienekes and his fan boys or Professor Hor, Gonad Ryder and the rest forget that you hold them in utter contempt - the reason for which is that, that is all they deserve.
And you have no problem making that point, because deep down, they know it's true. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE HERE, READING THIS, RIGHT NOW.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: use them in order to [b]educate others;
[/B]
I hope you realized that there are more knowledgeable people on this forum especially recently, I don't know what kind of miracle happened. However they don't waste their time with useless people like Evil. I think you could educate posters on this forum more efficiently than lower yourself to his level. By the way I don't know if you noticed that there are no native Africans who spend more than two seconds with that kind of garbage...and I think some of them are as knowledgeable as you are...why they don't spend the same amount of time you and others spend with Evil? Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by rasol: You might have misunderstood Keins, Relaxx.
I think, I guess I hope I understood what he meant, but what I wanted to emphasize is that in Africa, people don't really view Europeans as White, but define them based on their features. Some Europeans would look like broad based Africans and other would like Africans with finer features. That's where we have some miscommunication. I'm trying to define Europeans based on African perspective, and you are trying to define Africans based on a European perspective. I hope you understand my point. Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: I hope you realized that there are more knowledgeable people on this forum especially recently,
No one is so knolwedgeable that they have nothing to learn.
I learn a great deal from the posts of Charlie Bass and Thought for example.
The trolls are beside the point, and provide comic relief.
quote: I don't know what kind of miracle happened. However they don't waste their time with useless people like Evil.
Sure, that's why Professor Horembeb's childish troll bait of the day has already accumulated nearly 30 posts.
All he had to do was repost and old review of a book he has never even bothered to read - and look at how many people took the bait. This is your idea of a miracle? Of some kind of improvement? ?
quote:I think you could educate posters on this forum more efficiently than lower yourself to his level.
You mean by posting pictures which ultimately have no scientific value -
as oppposed to assessing peer reviewed studies from the likes of Keita and Ehret, or conferring directly with the scholars like Underhill and Brace and posting their responses as Bass/Thought and others do?
To each his own. I prefer their approach, they are about the only reason I visit this site anymore.
quote: By the way I don't know if you noticed that there are no native Africans who spend more than two seconds with that kind of garbage.
No, I haven't noticed that.
quote:why they don't spend the same amount of time you and others spend with Evil? Relaxx
I can only guess - In your case it is apparently because you are too busy engaging in silly picture spam wars with Leba and Cobra?
Btw. Because of the nature of your response, I expect them to be by shortly, and completely trash this thread with picture spam, if history is any guide.
But notice, I understand that different posters have distinct interests and styles, so I don't waste my time criticising your anti-intellectual approach. I prefer to stress the positive provided by Thought, Bass, Supercar, Ausar and others.
Again, to each his own.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: I think, I guess I hope I understood what he meant, but what I wanted to emphasize is that in Africa, people don't really view Europeans as White, but define them based on their features. Some Europeans would look like broad based Africans and other would like Africans with finer features. That's where we have some miscommunication. I'm trying to define Europeans based on African perspective, and you are trying to define Africans based on a European perspective. I hope you understand my point. Relaxx
Keins perspective is as valid as yours. You spend a great deal of time arguing with other Africans, which in logic should indicate to you that you you don't speak for all Africans and should not condescend so as to imply otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I prefer to stress the positive provided by Thought, Bass, Supercar, Ausar and others.
Again, to each his own.
I don't know why you include an African in your list, as far as I know he (Ausar) doesn't deal much with Euro.... . Unfortunately most of your posts are based on Western Scientists who sometime don't have enough insight regarding African subtleties like differences between Amhara and Oromos. And some of the posters you mentioned often quote them blindly, and based on you previous posts, you do the same mistake...As for Thought and Topdog I don't know what demons they are fighting but it is completely alien to Africa and probably rooted in some country located between Canada and Mexico. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 14 October 2005).]
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 14 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: Unfortunately most of your posts are based on Western Scientists who sometime don't have enough insight regarding African subtleties like differences between Amhara and Oromos. And some of the posters you mentioned often quote them blindly...
Uhem! Correction: I know that you could not possibly be including me to "nameless" posters you are charging here, for I don't quote anything I don't know the implication of. You have been here long enough, I would assume, to know better!
quote:Originally posted by Super car: Uhem! Correction: I know that you could not possibly be including me to "nameless" posters you are charging here, for I don't quote anything I don't know the implication of. You have been here long enough, I would assume, to know better!
Sorry Super car, I think you are among the most knowledgeable posters about Africa, and my prompt response indicates that I really appreciate your input on topics regarding Africa, it's excellent. As for Rasol I think he’s sympathetic with Africans although sometime condescending which makes me doubt whether he has some African blood, but you know him better, you can tell me whether I’m right or wrong about his ancestry. Relaxx.
quote:Originally posted by Super car: Uhem! Correction: I know that you could not possibly be including me to "nameless" posters you are charging here, for I don't quote anything I don't know the implication of. You have been here long enough, I would assume, to know better!
Relaxx is a good guy, frankly I see thru the posturing. He's fallen into a pout over the racist remarks made by Erroneous and he is taking it out on Keins and others.
Too bad, because it is one of the known consequences of trolls...they cause decent folk to turn on each other out of anger.
Relaxx is smart though, and I'm thinking he will figure this out before it goes too much further.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Erroneous is not the only troll on this forum, you are more singularly obssessed with him, in your own way than Charlie Bass is.
And since you bitterly criticised Ausar for not banning Errohneous, your current comments seem a bit disingenous in this regard.
It's really as if you're frustrated by Erroneous and lashing out at everyone else because you failed to get him banned?
quote: As for Rasol I think he’s sympathetic with Africans although sometime condescending which makes me doubt whether he has some African blood, but you know him better, you can tell me whether I’m right or wrong about his ancestry
^^ There you go. Now he's attacking my ancestry. Sorry Relaxx, you may be angry and bitter, but I'm not. You can't bait me.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Super car: [b] Uhem! Correction: I know that you could not possibly be including me to "nameless" posters you are charging here, for I don't quote anything I don't know the implication of. You have been here long enough, I would assume, to know better!
Sorry Super car, I think you are among the most knowledgeable posters about Africa, and my prompt response indicates that I really appreciate your input on topics regarding Africa, it's excellent. As for Rasol I think he’s sympathetic with Africans although sometime condescending which makes me doubt whether he has some African blood, but you know him better, you can tell me whether I’m right or wrong about his ancestry. Relaxx.
[/B][/QUOTE] Super car, You know Rasol better than me, I hope the remarks I've just made didn't hurt him...I don't quite understand his last two posts...Do you understand them.? Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Relaxx is a good guy, frankly I see thru the posturing. He's fallen into a pout over the racist remarks made by Erroneous and he is taking it out on Keins and others.
Too bad, because it is one of the known consequences of trolls...they cause decent folk to turn on each other out of anger.
Relaxx is smart though, and I'm thinking he will figure this out before it goes too much further.
There can be no doubt about how Relaxx obviously feels about such reactionaries, which is understandable, as it is the case with any other decent human being. At the same time, I have a feeling Relaxx still wants to probe into who is African or not, and perhaps, to be followed by some knowledge or some idea about their whereabouts, as to gauge why it is people talk about Ancient Egyptians' and other Africans' ethnic backgrounds.
And now to Relaxx:
Well, since you are obviously here with us, and I don't want to simply treat you as some third person, while responding to Rasol, the question I have for you is this: Am I right about what I just said?
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 15 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Super car: There can be no doubt about how Relaxx obviously feels about such reactionaries, which is understandable, as it is the case with any other decent human being. At the same time, I have a feeling Relaxx still wants to probe into who is African or not, and perhaps, to be followed by some knowledge or some idea about their whereabouts, as to gauge why it is people talk about Ancient Egyptians' and other Africans' ethnic backgrounds.
And now to Relaxx:
Well, since you are obviously here with us, and I don't want to simply treat you as some third person, while responding to Rasol, the question I have for you is this: Am I right about what I just said?
[This message has been edited by Super car (edited 15 October 2005).]
You are correct.. I have an idea about who you are and others, but Rasol still puzzles me. Who is Rasol? Are you sure he has some African ancestry like yourself. Maybe you can enlighten me... Relaxx
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: You are correct.. I have an idea about who you are and others, but Rasol still puzzles me. Who is Rasol? Are you sure he has some African ancestry like yourself. Maybe you can enlighten me... Relaxx
I don't know anyone personally here. I do have an idea of who is seeking the truth, and who isn't. Rasol is definitely among the former, i.e., the truth seekers, which I think is most important, regardless of where a person comes from.
quote:Originally posted by Super car: I don't know anyone personally here. I do have an idea of who is seeking the truth, and who isn't. Rasol is definitely among the former, i.e., the truth seekers, which I think is most important, regardless of where a person comes from.
Nicely done.
We could easily make the same mistake as Relaxx and give in to logical fallacies of which he is mired in right now.
Fallacy of Origin [guilt by association]: an argument or arguer has some particular origin, the argument must be right (or wrong).
Ex: Relaxx claims to be "more" African than Keins.
Ex: Relaxx claims that sources are invalidated because they are "western",
Ex: Relaxx provides no sources, facts or evidence, of his own, and resorts to appealing to his 'superior' Africaness.
Perhaps Relaxx lacks the confidence and resources that yourself and others bring to the table - which leads to his opening up the bag of bogus arguments from the Intellectual Bankrupt debators handbook.
We could easily make the same mistake as Relaxx and give in to logical fallacies of which he is mired in right now.
Fallacy of Origin [guilt by association]: an argument or arguer has some particular origin, the argument must be right (or wrong).
Ex: Relaxx claims to be "more" African than Keins.
Ex: Relaxx claims that sources are invalidated because they are "western",
Ex: Relaxx provides no sources, facts or evidence, of his own, and resorts to appealing to his 'superior' Africaness.
Perhaps Relaxx lacks the confidence and resources that yourself and others bring to the table - which leads to his opening up the bag of bogus arguments from the Intellectual Bankrupt debators handbook.
Nice try...Try again tomorrow...Kwaheri Relaxx PS: Thank you for your kind words, they were delicious...
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 15 October 2005).]
posted
Just by looking at someone's phenotype as one or the other is not a guarantee of anything. I know that Cameron Diaz stated in Spanish language periodico anos atras that her grandfather! was African from Cuba, probably Yoruba or from modern day Dahomey.
Her facial structure is not that appealing to me but she is beautiful nontheless!
All of the crania in this Spanish sample originated from a 16th to 17th-century community associated with a church in northwestern Spain. Although specific information on the ancestry of any particular individual in the sample is not available, generally all individuals should be considered examples of this group.
Table 3 presents the race classification of all individuals in this sample using the Forensic Data Bank option. Of the 95 individuals, 42 (44 percent) were classified as white, 35 percent as black, 9 percent as Hispanic, 4 percent as Japanese, 4 percent as American Indian, and the remaining three individuals as Chinese and Vietnamese
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: Just by looking at someone's phenotype as one or the other is not a guarantee of anything. I know that Cameron Diaz stated in Spanish language periodico anos atras that her grandfather! was African from Cuba, probably Yoruba or from modern day Dahomey.
Her facial structure is not that appealing to me but she is beautiful nontheless!
yazid, my point is there is nothing original about European features from an African perspective, they do look like hybrids between broad faced Bantus or some West Africans and Eastern Elongated Africans. That's my point, whatever Cameron Diaz ancestry, she can fit easily among Blonde Swedish girls, and no one will notice her particularly. I know you are from Trinidad, whereas I think Keins is from the Barbados, you are not familiar with African diversity and tend to view things through a Western point of view. But go to Africa and you will understand.
Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 15 October 2005).]
I know you are from Trinidad, whereas I think Keins is from the Barbados, you are not familiar with African diversity and tend to view things through a Western point of view.
Just for the record, Keins is one of the select posters here, who actually fully grasp African diversity. Need not look any further, just use the search function.
There are some posters here, claiming to be from a particular African nation, and yet, seem to be totally devoid of the fact that Africans are diverse both in supra-Saharan [like that word better ] and sub-Saharan Africa, not only from east to west, north to south, but also within east, west, south, and north.
Also we need to be careful of the tendency to repeat Eurocentric concepts like "fine" features, which is biased and prejoritive.
After all: the opposite of "fine" is rough, course, unsatisfactory and even ugly.
Yes, Somali Iman is one of mother Africa's "finest."
And so is Nigerian, Darego
We're all well intended [in this thread], and can all learn from one another, and so shouldn't get side tracked into ripping into each other, needlessly.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I agree Supercar and Keins.
Also we need to be careful of the tendency to repeat Eurocentric concepts like "fine" features, which is biased and prejoritive.
After all: the opposite of "fine" is rough, course, unsatisfactory and even ugly.
Yes, Somali Iman is one of mother Africa's "finest."
And so is Nigerian, Darego
We're all well intended [in this thread], and can all learn from one another, and so shouldn't get side tracked into ripping into each other, needlessly.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 October 2005).]
I absolutely agree with that.
"Fine" features.
"Fair" skin.
Even on the matter of hair non-white straight hair is considered "dark and coarse".
If you've ever touched a latina or Asian person's hair it is actually more silky than a White person's hair. I don't know where this "coarse" mess came from but it sounds like more Eurocentric babble.
If a Black person's features are "broad" then why not call a White persons's features "narrow"?
Instead of "thick" lips "full" lips vs. thin lips.
I've even heard some people consider a Black person's nose "big".
Having a then nose doesn't mean your nose is small alot of Europeans have very long noses.
Actually I notice that despite being narrower than broad nosed Africans many East Africans like Iman have a round short nose vs. a pointy narrow nose. Their fearures are on average certainly not identical.
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: I notice that despite being narrower than broad nosed Africans many East Africans like Iman have a round short nose vs. a pointy narrow nose.
That's called nasal Science...actually there are both types in Eastern Africa, I think we had a discussion on the Nile Valley forum about how some Tutsis actually had the characteristics you mentionned above, and that Europeans had a bigger nose in general compare to EEA. But again as was emphasized by Super car, Nilo-Saharan speaking people, Bantu speaking people are numerous in East Africa and are as East Africans as the people mentionned in this thread. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by relaxx (edited 16 October 2005).]
posted
According to my Caucasian friends (Azeri, Chechen, Geirgian) they are often called chernozaphy (black ass) by their Slavic and mainland European neighbours.
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: According to my Caucasian friends (Azeri, Chechen, Geirgian) they are often called chernozaphy (black ass) by their Slavic and mainland European neighbours.
Chek it out yuhself!
I remember when I was younger living in Sweden the Swedes used to call Iranians Svart skalle( blackhead)...
posted
Why do you always seem to misunderstand my posts? Why are you so literal at times? Let me spell it out to you. 1)IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SERIOUS. THE CONCEPT OF BLACK CAUCASIANS OR CAUCASIANS AS A WHOLE IS SILLY, CONTRIVED AND INSTITUTED TO CONFUSE, BEND RULES AND PUT EUROPEANS AT THE CENTER OF THE HUMAN FAMILY. THEY ARE JUST AN OFFSPRING OF THE BIG AFRICAN FAMILY, WITH MINOR MUTATIONS OR EVOLUTIONS. NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS!
2)EVEN SOCIALLY THOSE PEOPLE ARE STILL CONSIDERED BLACK IN EUROPE, AMERICA AND MOST OTHER NATIONS AROUND THE WORLD.
quote:Originally posted by relaxx: No offense Keins, it's a little bit childish. Please be more serious, you know better based on your other posts. Relaxx
[This message has been edited by Keins (edited 19 October 2005).]
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