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Here are some 3D images created by the ancient Egyptians that could be considered Afrocentric if created in modern times. There are many more. Here are just a few from my collection:
This photo was taken by me at the Brooklyn Museum
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Some images were Afrocentric, but many others were not.
LOL You obviously haven't seen much ancient Egyptian depictions then. over 98% of them look African, including the one you just posted! LOL Rahotep looks just like a light-skinned black man here in America.
...or in Egypt!
Sorry.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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All I see is black people. I am tired of perfect egyptian still thinking that Egypt was not Black African. All those pictures are of black people good post Neo*Geo and Djehuti. I wish I had some egyptian pictures to post to. I will look and then post some later.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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I am always careful with photographs of ancient relics and especially those of painted statues from Egypt. Part of the problem is that many painted reliefs from Egypt are misrepresented. So, many times, faded portraits and statues are presented as if this is the way the Egyptians ORIGINALLY painted them. The same goes for painted items that have been restored, since the chemicals used in restoration are known to make colors a few shades lighter. Likewise, many times artifacts lose their color all together and once again cannot be seen in their original condition. Another issue is why females are portrayed in light colors versus the males. Anyone who does not properly put this into context is a fraud. Most women were portrayed as yellow/light tan to represent the sun, not an actual skin color. This is something that any true student of Egypt knows.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I am always careful with photographs of ancient relics and especially those of painted statues from Egypt. Part of the problem is that many painted reliefs from Egypt are misrepresented. So, many times, faded portraits and statues are presented as if this is the way the Egyptians ORIGINALLY painted them. The same goes for painted items that have been restored, since the chemicals used in restoration are known to make colors a few shades lighter. Likewise, many times artifacts lose their color all together and once again cannot be seen in their original condition. Another issue is why females are portrayed in light colors versus the males. Anyone who does not properly put this into context is a fraud. Most women were portrayed as yellow/light tan to represent the sun, not an actual skin color. This is something that any true student of Egypt knows.
Well, we don't really know what the yellow color in women symbolized, but yes I agree with everything you said.
Which is why my previous post is of unpainted statues. It may not show their skin color but it gives you a pretty good idea of their feautures.
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all of those images posted (including the one Perfect Egyptian posted) show depictions well within the range of the diverse appearance of black Africans.
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There was alot of Egyptian history and people that was not entirely Black.
You shouldn't deny this historical fact and lose credibility.
European civilization was not entirely European and nor so was the great African civilizations. It is trade that makes these civilizations great and none of that could have come into fruition without trade.
And Jews are still the greatest of all Traders.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Some images were Afrocentric, but many others were not.
Perfect Egyptian, I find it absolutely hilarious that you would post an image with a link to a webpage that gives detail on why they believe it to be a forgery!!!!
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How hard is it for you to accept the fact that African Americans are not pure Africans, but are mixed race people with around 20-25% European/Other ancestary. You perception is tainted by your society, but people outside of your domain are more aware of the actual genetic makeup of African Americans than most African Americans themselves.
By comparing Egyptians with Native Black Africans, Egyptians are definitely Non-Black Africans.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: all of those images posted (including the one Perfect Egyptian posted) show depictions well within the range of the diverse appearance of black Africans.
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you could easily say the same about Ethiopians and Somalis, but many Egyptians and almost all Somalis and Ethiopians are BLACK PEOPLE.
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Your many is actually around 5% of all Egyptians could be considered Black by your social definition, but many of these people don't actually think of themselves as such.
As for East Africans, Eithiopians and Somalis, clearly many of them are mixed race people, but calling them Black Africans is a matter of perception and personal choice.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: you could easily say the same about Ethiopians and Somalis, but many Egyptians and almost all Somalis and Ethiopians are BLACK PEOPLE.
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This is not a thread to deny that there were non-black Egyptians in antiquity. My point is to post images that reveal the African nature of ancient Egyptians. Some of the faces on these sculptures could easily blend in with faces in contemporary Afrocentric artwork.
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5% of all Egyptians? where do you get this from? there are black people in ALL parts of Egypt, whether minority (Lower Egypt) or majority (Upper Egypt).
in America, a good number of Egyptians, and most Ethiopians and Somalis would be considered "black". whether they consider themselves black or not, society would see them as such.
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i don't. i see everted lips in all 3 pictures, dark skin reminicent of Horn Africans, and African styled hair in the second picture, whether it is real hair or a wig.
wow, people really can see what they want to see.
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: How hard is it for you to accept the fact that African Americans are not pure Africans, but are mixed race people with around 20-25% European/Other ancestary. You perception is tainted by your society, but people outside of your domain are more aware of the actual genetic makeup of African Americans than most African Americans themselves.
By comparing Egyptians with Native Black Africans, Egyptians are definitely Non-Black Africans.
African-Americans are well aware of their diverse heritage. But it would seem that on this board it is you who does not know much about your own ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Your many is actually around 5% of all Egyptians could be considered Black by your social definition, but many of these people don't actually think of themselves as such.
I've asked you before and I doubt you well respond but just to be fair, do you have a source for this?
What source do you have that proves that only around 5% of Egypt's population would fit under Walk's social definition of who is Black?
quote:As for East Africans, Eithiopians and Somalis, clearly many of them are mixed race people, but calling them Black Africans is a matter of perception and personal choice.
You simply don't understand enough about human variation for your statements to hold any validity.
It's time for your education "Perfect" Egyptian.
These lovely ladies are East Africans their physical appearance is very common in that region and there is no genetic evidence that their appearance is the product of non-African admixture.
This girl is also East African.
This guy on the other hand is "biracial" on of his parents is Ethiopian and the other parent is Dutch.
His complexion is very similar to your average lower egyptian.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: There was alot of Egyptian history and people that was not entirely Black.
You shouldn't deny this historical fact and lose credibility.
European civilization was not entirely European and nor so was the great African civilizations. It is trade that makes these civilizations great and none of that could have come into fruition without trade.
And Jews are still the greatest of all Traders.
LOL Please tell me you are still not proposing the Jewish presence in Lower Egypt which had a significant influence!
You are right that Greece was not entirely European but also Near-Eastern as well because of the significant waves of immigration from the Near-East. Egypt on the other hand had no such significant influence of people from the Near-East. If Egypt did recieve immigration from the Levant it is most likely minimal as stated by Egyptologists like Rice.
Also, it is one thing to assume that such 'mixture' took place in Egypt, but to generalize this about the other African civilizaions is silly. What Near-Eastern people, let alone Jews, have anything to do with Nubia, the Sahelian kingdoms and others? Trade is not always the main factor to the success of a civilization.
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OMG she looks EXACTLY like me!!! it's eerie! she also resembles the Ancient Egyptian depictions more than anyone else i've ever seen.
the third picture you posted also resembles many modern Upper Egyptians, such as my Egyptian cousins. Perfect Egyptian wouldn't recognize a black person if they smacked him upside the head.
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: How hard is it for you to accept the fact that African Americans are not pure Africans, but are mixed race people with around 20-25% European/Other ancestary. You perception is tainted by your society, but people outside of your domain are more aware of the actual genetic makeup of African Americans than most African Americans themselves.
I think it a foolish generalization to assume all African Americans have 'mixed' ancestry. Have you seen all African Americans or do you know all of their lineages??
quote:By comparing Egyptians with Native Black Africans, Egyptians are definitely Non-Black Africans.
It depends which Egyptians you are referring to. Many Fellahin from Luxor are still black Africans and they are direct descendants of the mummies buried in the Valley of the Kings.
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i still find it amazing how much that Somali girl Mansa posted looks like me.
there are way more black indigenous Egyptians than Perfect is willing to admit. he seems to also have a strange view of what constitutes "black". i guess to him, one isn't black unless their skin is coal black, or their lips aren't puffy and their nose wide. most people would be able to see the African features of Egyptians.
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Your many is actually around 5% of all Egyptians could be considered Black by your social definition, but many of these people don't actually think of themselves as such.
And you obviously don't think much of the FACTS as we've explained them to you, or any of the pictures we've posted here.
quote:As for East Africans, Eithiopians and Somalis, clearly many of them are mixed race people, but calling them Black Africans is a matter of perception and personal choice.
LMAO You don't even have a clue as to what you are saying about East Africans!! The only Ethiopians who are of mixed ancestry are the Amhara and Tigre but they are a minority. The vast majority of Ethiopians including the major ethnic group the Oromo but others as well have nil to no non-African ancestry whatsoever.
Somalis are also predominantly African with little admixture. The only Somalis who are mixed are the Banadirs but they are a small minority.
Sorry Perfect, but just because modern Egypt is mixed doesn't mean to have to 'mix' up other parts of Africa as another poster on this board loves to do! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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i've had this conversation with ignorant people so many times. if ancient and Upper Egyptians today aren't black, then neither are most blacks of East Africa, the Americas, and the Caribbean.
not all black people have to have West African features to be black. the ancient Egyptians clearly had features well within the range of native Africans, and only someone who is blinded by prejudice and stereotype can't see that.
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another thing that should be acknowledged is that East Africa also refers to Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania, NOT just the Horn of Africa as most people mean when they say East Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Your many is actually around 5% of all Egyptians could be considered Black by your social definition, but many of these people don't actually think of themselves as such.
As for East Africans, Eithiopians and Somalis, clearly many of them are mixed race people, but calling them Black Africans is a matter of perception and personal choice.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: you could easily say the same about Ethiopians and Somalis, but many Egyptians and almost all Somalis and Ethiopians are BLACK PEOPLE.
Perfect,
This thread is about the efforts of many who try to WHITEWASH Africans out of Egyptian history. The point is that the MAJORITY of the images from ancient Egypt portrayed people of color and I mean COLOR, not light bright close to white either. Everyone likes to take half faded and cleaned fragments of statues and reliefs to try and prove a point. If you really want to prove a point, take the WHOLE scene into consideration to put the evidence in context. Go into a tomb or temple where the colors are still intact and full of images of medium to dark brown skinned people top to bottom front to back, as far as the eye can see and THEN point out the handful of images that appear to depict lighter skinned people and tell me that they are the majority.
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anyone who can sincerely look at the majority of Egyptian art and call it "white" or "non black" knows little to nothing about the diversity of black African features. i swear. if the majority of ancient Egyptian sculptures, depictions, paintings, etc. were real people walking around in the streets of any country with people of African descent, they'd blend in really well. i am Egyptian American and i blend in perfectly with black Americans (probably of West African descent), which shows me that we are of the same race, the black race.
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quote:Originally posted by KING: All I see is black people. I am tired of perfect egyptian still thinking that Egypt was not Black African. All those pictures are of black people good post Neo*Geo and Djehuti. I wish I had some egyptian pictures to post to. I will look and then post some later.
What the hell is "black" people? I see alot of people besides King use this concept but still refute the concept of race. I thought people here recognized alredy that their is no such thing as "black" people, this whole concept was created after the trans-atlantic slave trade, never has this concept existed before the European new settlers came to west Africa, infact it doesnt even exist in Europe anymore besides maybe England. Here in Sweden people see you as either native or foreigner,depending how you adapt to the society. They don't care if you are Nigerian, Lebanese or Serbian ( But American popular movies, with their "black this white that" are whats poisoning young minds.) Just say these people were Egyptians who were Africans and had an African culture, enough. United states obsession on race is not only retarded but also a sickness.
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: What the hell is "black" people? I see alot of people besides King use this concept but still refute the concept of race. I thought people here recognized alredy that their is no such thing as "black" people, this whole concept was created after the trans-atlantic slave trade, never has this concept existed before the European new settlers came to west Africa, infact it doesnt even exist in Europe anymore besides maybe England. Here in Sweden people see you as either native or foreigner,depending how you adapt to the society. They don't care if you are Nigerian, Lebanese or Serbian ( But American popular movies, with their "black this white that" are whats poisoning young minds.) Just say these people were Egyptians who were Africans and had an African culture, enough. United states obsession on race is not only retarded but also a sickness.
Unfortunately Yonis, there are many people who accept the fact that Egyptians are African but not 'black' i.e. somekind of North African caucasians! This is all due to Western hang-ups about race, but America is not the only one to blame. Other Western countries in Europe are responsible also but even then, many experts from these places have begun the process to correct the wrongs of their forebearers.
I myself wish that we could talk more about the culture of these people instead of their skin-color or features but some people just can't get over their biases. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: What the hell is "black" people? I see alot of people besides King use this concept but still refute the concept of race. I thought people here recognized alredy that their is no such thing as "black" people, this whole concept was created after the trans-atlantic slave trade, never has this concept existed before the European new settlers came to west Africa, infact it doesnt even exist in Europe anymore besides maybe England. Here in Sweden people see you as either native or foreigner,depending how you adapt to the society. They don't care if you are Nigerian, Lebanese or Serbian ( But American popular movies, with their "black this white that" are whats poisoning young minds.) Just say these people were Egyptians who were Africans and had an African culture, enough. United states obsession on race is not only retarded but also a sickness.
Well, I must be in the camp which recognizes the existence of "black" people; I however, understand this term in a specific context: I understand it simply as a euphemism for indigenous people of the tropics, which indeed covers a wide area of the planet. These "mobile" people have varying degrees of "pigmented" skin. I also recognize the existence of "depigmented" people of the northern latitudes, known as "whites". In any case, people of different cultural backgrounds may have their respective social references to people sporting these physical characteristics. Therefore, science approaches matters in terms that are meant to be understood by people of any cultural background, because it/science is meant to inform us about what is, and not what we would wish to be. Noticing visible variations among humans, doesn't necessarily translate into one's belief in human "races"...or put it this way: not recognizing "racial typology", doesn't translate into one's disavowing of variations among humans. The context in which these variations are perceived, defines whether or not it falls within the realm of reality. As said multiple times now, there are variations within populations, as there are between populations. With that said, human populations do in fact grade into one another, and in the end, a human being is just a human being!
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Most women were portrayed as yellow/light tan to represent the sun, not an actual skin color.
Doug, if you look at the color used to depict women you'll often find it's a paler yellow than the more golden hue of the goddesses like Maat. Generally speaking, Egyptians women have always tended to be a shade lighter than men, and it's very common to find brothers and sisters where this is very evident. I believe I read that there is a genetic reason behind it (which is not necessarily that women simply stay out of the sun). Many Egyptian women were painted brown in the NK because they were usually depictions of southern women (where the capital was at the time), who share the same rich brown color as their male counterparts.
Here is a New Kingdom tomb scene that shows women in both colors:
Here's one of Amenhotep I that defies all artisitc convention:
quote:Doug, if you look at the color used to depict women you'll often find it's a paler yellow than the more golden hue of the goddesses like Maat. Generally speaking, Egyptians women have always tended to be a shade lighter than men, and it's very common to find brothers and sisters where this is very evident. I believe I read that there is a genetic reason behind it (which is not necessarily that women simply stay out of the sun). Many Egyptian women were painted brown in the NK because they were usually depictions of southern women (where the capital was at the time), who shared the same rich brown color as their male counterparts.
Here is a tomb scene from NK artwork that shows women in both colors:
I am inclined to agree with scholars likr Gay Robbins that contend the yellowish colors of females was not literal but symbolic. The whole concept that women stayed indoors;while men worked outside is an idealogy that Western Egyptologist have picked up from the Victorian era. Most of the everyday existence of the females took them outdoors where chores were preformed upon the open roof.
The yellowish color might be associated also with sex differences and old age.
In modern Upper Egypt women are confined to their houses because of Islamic influences. In antiquity women were also present working with their husbands in the field and no restriction. I am not certain if fellaha women in the Delta work alongside their husbands in the field. Most accounts I have gleaned they are allowed unlike in Sa3eed.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: In modern Upper Egypt women are confined to their houses because of Islamic influences. In antiquity women were also present working with their husbands in the field and no restriction. I am not certain if fellaha women in the Delta work alongside their husbands in the field. Most accounts I have gleaned they are allowed unlike in Sa3eed.
That's correct as far as the Delta is concerned. The daughters as well.
Now, if you believe the color of ancient Egyptian women was simply symbolic, I think then you'd have to be equally prepared to do the same with respect to the men. I'm still, however, convinced that the yellow-based color of Egyptian women was an indication of their overall lighter complexion than the men. It also happens to be the same impression that the falla7in have to this day. Ancient Egyptians uniformly depicted themselves in those two specific colors for the most part, even though there were I'm sure many men and women who did not fit neatly within such categories (the sculptural evidence does show more variety). Nonetheless, the fact that they chose to represent women in the same way Egyptians generally think of themselves is telling to me, as well as the fact that in some portraiture darker and lighter-complexioned women are depicted.
This one below looks fairly typical of Egyptian families:
quote:Originally posted by ausar: In modern Upper Egypt women are confined to their houses because of Islamic influences. In antiquity women were also present working with their husbands in the field and no restriction. I am not certain if fellaha women in the Delta work alongside their husbands in the field. Most accounts I have gleaned they are allowed unlike in Sa3eed.
That's correct as far as the Delta is concerned. The daughters as well.
I'm still, however, convinced that the yellow-based color of ancient Egyptian women was an indication of their overall lighter complexion than the men. It also happens to be the same impression that the falla7in have to this day. Ancient Egyptians uniformly depicted themselves in those two specific colors, even though there were I'm sure many men and women who did not fit neatly within such categories (the sculptural evidence does show more variety). Nonetheless, the fact that they chose to represent women in the same way Egyptians generally think of themselves is telling to me, as well as the fact that in some portraiture darker and lighter-complexioned women are depicted.
This one below looks fairly typical of Egyptian families:
Masereyya,
I cannot agree with anything other than the idea that the colors used in Egypt had a sybolic meaning when it comes to everything, including color. The problem for us is that we dont know how to interperet the colors. If you used your logic and the women were actually light yellow skinned, as depicted in the paintings, then why are all the men depicted as ONLY brown? Seems to me that they would have the same mixture of colors as the women then. One theory I have heard mentioned by others is the idea that the woman was like the sun and therefore depicted lighter as as symbolic representation of the suns rays (somewhat like dieties who were represented as golden). Either way, I don't think that it is possible to consider the colors used for females as literal.
Another reason why you cannot use these colors literally is that in many tombs the same woman can be depicted both as light yellow AND brown. So how do you distinguish which is which in that case? Light yellow no matter how light, does not necessarily represent a real skin color. I have no problem accepting that anyone from ancient Egypt may have had lighter skin, however, if the evidence is ambiguous and inconclusive, I would reserve making any definitive statements one way or the other. The issue here is whether someone wants to take ambiguous evidence and use it to justify one interperetation over another. Ambigouous evidence, therefore, is not a help in actually getting to the facts since it can be used to support many theories and not provide a clear basis of determining the facts.
All that said, I also agree that there are many, many depictions of females in AE as naturally brown skinned and therefore it cannot be denied that there were many women in Egypt who were just as brown as the men. This thread is a good opportunity for those "other" images to get published, since many western archaeologists have done a lot to pigeonhole images of Egypt into the ambigous, coulda woulda been any kinda person category. Like I said, the best way to interperet Egyptian paintings is in context. You have to see the statue in terms of the WHOLE tomb or temple where the statue or relief was originally located in order to begin to interperet why they used the colors they used. Outside of that context it is always easy to make an interperetation that does not make any sense. It is a widely known fact that temples and tombs had many portraits of the same person in different poses colors and representations for many different reasons. Therefore, taking one piece of the whole image does not tell the whole story.
A good example of how images can be used/misused is Nefertiti. Now, in this case, there are many many images of Nefertiti that look like the head posted at the beginning of this thread. And there are many small fragments, called talatat, from Amarna that have been found, of Nefertiti and Akhenaton where they are both depicted as brown. However, the ONLY image of nefertiti we see is that of the Berlin bust or maybe some of the unpainted reserve heads that were found. But keep in mind, these "reserve heads" were not official portraits and therefor could have been anybody and can no way be considered as absolutely accurate. The talatat are the "official" sanctioned portraits, along with the surviving portraits of Akhenaton, Nefertiti and children from Amarna. The university of Pennsylvania even hosted an exhibit of a temple reconstructed from the peices found at Amarna. In all those "official" images, Nefertiti was portrayed as brown skinned with similar features as Akhenaton. Of couse we know that Amarna art featured, once again, highly symbolic forms and shapes, but before you start trying to determine the facts of how someone looked, you should look at ALL the evidence, not just that which supports the ideas YOU may want to see, ie. the Berlin bust. Now, I cannot blame anyone for thinking that Nefertiti looked like the Berlin bust, if that is the only image they have ever seen, but if the Egyptologists only show that bust and dont show any of the others, especially of the temple fragments, which are by far the MAJORITY, then they are not painting an accurate picture of the facts.
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I think the yellow skin of Egyptian women was merely a symbolic representation to express femininity.
If the Ancient Egyptians had really varied in skintone as much as you say Masreyya it would stand to reason that they would express this diversity more in art the way they did the Asiatics.
Sure some MODERN Egyptian women may be significantly lighter than their husbands but that goes both ways.
My father is substantially lighter than my mother, this is due to the different genetics of their parents and I think it is very common in populations such as African-Americans and Modern Egyptians with a diverse heritage.
Why aren't the men ever on occasion painted yellow with the women brown?
This trend leads me to believe it is symbolic and not an example of Egyptian variation.
In more homogenous populations you don't see a major differences between the color of men and women. You don't see it in the heart of Africa, you don't see it in East Asia, you don't see it in India (barring skin creams) you don't see it in Europe.
Aristotle was quoted as saying that the light skin of women and very light skin in general was an example of their cowardice.
quote:Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as can be seen from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two -Physiognomy, 6
I've never seen a color contrast in Greek art of incredibly pale women and I don't see it in Modern European populations today.
As I said if this color contrast was literal and consistent with Modern times you'd see light men and dark women as well as I'm sure you see in Modern Egypt.
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One more comment on Archaeologists, anthropology and Egypt. If you want to see how the Ancient Egyptians actually looked, try and get access to the photos taken by turn of the century archaeologists. In MOST cases, you will see photos of unabashedly African people with only the Europeans being lighter skinned. The "natives" were a perfect reflection of the images of the brown skinned people we see on the tombs and temples of ancient Egypt. However, as antrhopologists, they ignore this FUNDAMENTAL evidence, and make up all kinds of abstract, theoretical nonsense about how the AE looked (these photos are invaluable evidence). The sad part is that in the 100 or so years since these photos were taken, the native populations in the photos seem to largely be missing from the modern population. This begs me to ask, what happened to them? I believe that the answer to that question as well as the answer to why the so-called anthropologists would IGNORE the natives when trying to figure out how the ancients looked has a lot to do with racism, imperialism and elitism than anything else.
Ohh well, here is the photo, from a website dedicated to building a 3d model of the city of Amarna, taken in the 1920s by some American/British archaeologists:
Now it is a small photo, but you get the gist of my point that there was no reason for anyone to question whether the ancient Egyptians were brown skinned Africans, given that they were SURROUNDED by them when they were excavating the ruins. This shows the extent of the racist nature of Egyptology in that they could look right in the face of African Egyptians and deny their very existence.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I cannot agree with anything other than the idea that the colors used in Egypt had a sybolic meaning when it comes to everything, including color. The problem for us is that we dont know how to interperet the colors. If you used your logic and the women were actually light yellow skinned, as depicted in the paintings, then why are all the men depicted as ONLY brown?
Actually, no, there are exceptions with regard to the men in plenty of sculptural evidence dated to the OK. There's also this funerary mask as an example from the MK:
But they are exceptions because most Egyptian men *are* brown to this day and that's what the colors are symbolic of: dark-skinned men in general, and dark women too, but who seem on the whole lighter than the men. Symbols are not chosen in a vacuum. And still, the fact that lighter as well as darker women are depicted side-by-side, esp. by the time the capital is moved to Thebes, is telling to me. Why else would Tiye be depicted in her famous bust specifically as a black-skinned woman; a fact never questioned by anyboday including Afrocentrists? I find it odd that the brown color of Egyptian men and those women who are depicted as dark or darker is simply taken for granted; meanwhile the lighter-complexioned women have to be "explained" away!
quote:But keep in mind, these "reserve heads" were not official portraits and therefor could have been anybody and can no way be considered as absolutely accurate.
Nevertheless, this unfinished reserve head looks exactly like the Berlin bust:
I, of course, don't buy into any charges of "fraud". We can allow for the possibility that the Berlin bust may just be slightly faded, but either way, it looks like a typical ancient Egyptian artifact of an Egyptian-looking woman, most likely of both Delta and southern extraction.
quote:The sad part is that in the 100 or so years since these photos were taken, the native populations in the photos seem to largely be missing from the modern population. This begs me to ask, what happened to them?
Doug.... what are you talking about? What do you mean by "missing"? Egyptians have always regularly participated in archaeological digs, including those undertaken by European/American archaeologists. And they can still clearly see the natives...
But just as with the women, they are simply exceptions because most Egyptian men *are* dark brown to this day and that's what the colors are symbolic of: dark-skinned men in general, and dark women too, but who seem on the whole lighter than the men. Symbols are not chosen in a vacuum. And still, the fact that lighter as well as darker women are depicted side-by-side, esp. by the time the capital is moved to Thebes, is telling to me. Why else would Tiye be depicted in her famous bust specifically as a black-skinned woman; a fact never questioned by anyboday including Africanists or Afrocentrists? I find it odd that the brown color of Egyptian men and those women who are depicted as dark as the men or darker is simply taken for granted; meanwhile the lighter-complexioned women have to be "explained" away! [QUOTE]
Maserreyya, I have never in my life found EVER that women were lighter than men as any sort of rule. I disagree with this, not as an Egyptian issue, but as a people issue period. It is a nons ense statement and another one of those theoretical scientific hypotheses that gets thrown around to justify nonsense. Now, this does not mean that there were NO lighter skinned people in ancient Egypt, I am not saying that at all. What I am saying simply is that all the images of women painted light yellow does not mean all the women were necessarily light yellow. If that were the case the men would be MOSTLY light yellow as well. Secondly, the images of lighter skinned people in ancient Egypt are the minority and should be viewed as such, not because I say so or because anyone else says so, but because that is the way the Egyptians painted them. So anyone who argues that darker skinned people were a minority in ancient Egypt are not looking at the evidence.
[QUOTE] I of course don't buy into any charges of "fraud". I'm, however, reasonable enough to allow for the possibility that the Berlin bust may be slightly faded and Nefertiti may have been a little darker than she appears in that bust. Either way, it looks like a typical ancient Egyptian artifact of an Egyptian-looking woman, and that's what should matter.[QUOTE]
I am saying that you should look at all of the evidence. Firstly, the Berlin bust is the ONLY bust that depicts Nefertiti as light pink and this is a sculpture with no name on it found in some workman's shop along with the other reserve heads. If they don't have the name of the queen on it, regardless of whether there are similarities, you cannot say they are 100% authentic copies of what she looked like. If you put all the reserve heads together in a room, they are not ALL alike and only 1 is painted, the Berlin bust. THerefore, there is enough variation and differentiation between them to automatically make them less than well suited as evidence for how Nefertiti looked, especially when some look like the head at the beginning of this thread, while others dont. So you have to take the evidence with a grain of salt, considering that we DONT know much about Nefertiti, other than her portraits and the idea reserve heads are accurate portraits are pure speculation. My only concern is that archaeologists put forward the Berlin bust as if they really know for sure this is what she looked like, as if they dont know there are MORE pictures of her that exist where she is painted brown. Therefore, the Berlin bust is an anomaly at best and should be presented in context.
On top of that, the reason we only have the reserve heads to work with, as opposed to "official" portraits, is because much of the artwork from Akhenaten's reign was destroyed by the ancients themselves. However, as I said before, there are many fragments of wall reliefs from the Amarna period that show Akhenaton and Nefertiti in FULL color and, in most cases she is definitely portrayed as brown skinned. I am not trying to make this a brown versus light skinned issue, other than to say that you must look at ALL the evidence, not just the reserve heads, but the official portraits as well as the reserve heads and the talatat, before making any broad statements about facts.
[QUOTE]Doug.... what are you talking about? What do you mean by "missing"? The Egyptians are obviously there in Egypt, and have always regularly participated in archaeological digs, including those undertaken by European/American archaeologists. [QUOTE]
What I am talking about is how the archeologists of the 1920s and on have been portraying ancient Egyptians as WHITE Europeans, like themselves and not like the native worker slaves that they had doing the excavations. THAT is an example of the racist and imperialist mindset of early Egyptian archaeology. THAT should be blatantly obvious. Secondly, Egyptians at work sites were mere worker bees doing the drudge work while the white Egyptologists got all the glory and made up their racist lies, therefore I don't see where the presence of so many natives was much of an achievement, when the foreign imperialist went on to tell lies about you and your history. It has only been relatively recently that native Egyptians have begun to actually get control of their own archaoeology and history.
The other point I was making about the photo, is that there are a lot more kinky haired dark skinned Africans, that archaeologists said were not present Egypt, in the photos. It seems that in the past 100 years, you see less and less African Egyptians with tight curly hair than now. These tighter haired Africans are an example of what many here on this board would call "sub Saharan" Africans, or the Africans with hair like the ancient Egyptian hairdos mentioned earlier. These are the people I am saying you see less of in modern Egypt, as opposed to African/Arab Egyptians with straight hair.
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quote:Originally posted by Masreyya: If you are going to take the color of ancient Egyptian women as symbolic, then you'd have to be equally prepared to do the same with respect to the men. I'm still, however, convinced that the yellow-based color of Egyptian women was an indication of their overall lighter complexion than the men.
The problem with both ideas is that the skin color of wall paintings represented different things over different time periods. However, during the New Kingdom, Egyptian art appears to have been more realistic than symbolic. During that period we see more wall paintings where women are depicted in the same skin reddish brown color as men.
This image is interesting. I think I've read that the jet-black woman in this painting is Queen Kemsit and her name meant "the lady is black." Her servants were more likely Syrio-Palestinian than Egyptian.
quote:Originally posted by Masreyya: This one below looks fairly typical of Egyptian families:
Contrast that with this scene of an Egyptian family
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All I am saying is use common sense. Most of the ancient Egyptian artwork is lost to us and what is left is in a serious state of decay. The majority of Egyptian images depicted brown men (and women) but there were some images of lighter skinned people as well. Take those facts, and the pictures from the turn of the century explorations, showing non Arabized Egyptian Africans, and you can put 2+2 together for yourself. The people of Egypt know that there were a lot of non Arabized Egyptians even up to 100 years ago, and there may be still some African Egyptians who still raise their children with the famous Egyptian sidelock. This too is a tradition that has almost disappeared, once again representing a loss of the African culture and heritage that was represented in Egypt. It is funny too, because a long time ago, in college, I ran across a book called the Ethnographic Encyclopedia, which listed various ethnic groups from around the world. There was a picture there of some Africans in Egypt or north Africa with a man and boy and the boy had the Egyptian sidelock. Now it is odd how anthropologists can go through the effort to document and categorize these people in writings and photos from the 1900s and early 20th century and then turn around and IGNORE their own research to produce some bastardized white images for the ancient Egyptians. This is nothing to do with science it is about imperialism and control over other people's history, lives and culture. THAT is why they continue to push the lies and not because they don't know better.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: The problem with both ideas is that the skin color of wall paintings represented different things over different time periods. However, during the New Kingdom, Egyptian art appears to have been more realistic than symbolic. During that period we see more wall paintings where women are depicted in the same skin reddish brown color as men.
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Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: How hard is it for you to accept the fact that African Americans are not pure Africans, but are mixed race people with around 20-25% European/Other ancestary. You perception is tainted by your society, but people outside of your domain are more aware of the actual genetic makeup of African Americans than most African Americans themselves.
By comparing Egyptians with Native Black Africans, Egyptians are definitely Non-Black Africans. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mansa musa
African-Americans are well aware of their diverse heritage. But it would seem that on this board it is you who does not know much about your own ancestry. -------------------------------------------------- I agree with that mansa and that 20-25% of some form of mixture is not the average for african americans that have some of of mixture anyway but there is a large number of african american with that form of mixture. Here is my reply from awhile ago.
I read that article before and some of it is misleading,when the term mixed is used it should be used for most of the black americans population as some form of mixture,because most blacks in america are not 50% mixed.mixed means too me half of something,some form of mixture could mean anything from 50% to less than 1%.this should be clear and and of course about only 67 to maybe 68% or less of black americans have some form of mixture if you add the recent and black west indian groups into the black american group. african americans and black americans(if you add african americans with other black groups ) as awhole are not mixed like latinos and some like i said are not mixed at all,that's the point,most have negriod features and still have the basic look like many west and east africans,of course most east africans have the basic same look like west africans anyway,but you could find various looks in both regions and both regions are mostly unmixed blacks.
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The sex differences will NOT amount to drastic visible difference in skin pigmentation. This is very subtle and not noticable to the glancing eye.
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Doug, if you look at the color used to depict women you'll often find it's a paler yellow than the more golden hue of the goddesses like Maat. Generally speaking, Egyptians women have always tended to be a shade lighter than men, and it's very common to find brothers and sisters where this is very evident. I believe I read that there is a genetic reason behind it (which is not necessarily that women simply stay out of the sun). Many Egyptian women were painted brown in the NK because they were usually depictions of southern women (where the capital was at the time), who shared the same rich brown color as their male counterparts.
Here is a tomb scene from NK artwork that shows women in both colors:
I am inclined to agree with scholars likr Gay Robbins that contend the yellowish colors of females was not literal but symbolic. The whole concept that women stayed indoors;while men worked outside is an idealogy that Western Egyptologist have picked up from the Victorian era. Most of the everyday existence of the females took them outdoors where chores were preformed upon the open roof.
The yellowish color might be associated also with sex differences and old age.
In modern Upper Egypt women are confined to their houses because of Islamic influences. In antiquity women were also present working with their husbands in the field and no restriction. I am not certain if fellaha women in the Delta work alongside their husbands in the field. Most accounts I have gleaned they are allowed unlike in Sa3eed.
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quote:Originally posted by Masreyya: Actually, no, there are exceptions with regard to the men in plenty of sculptural evidence dated to the OK. There's also this funerary mask as an example from the MK:
I think this is by far Masreyya's best evidence for skin color diversity in Egypt since the Old Kingdom.
This funeary mask is in my opinon in clear contrast to any idea that the Ancient Egyptians were 100% tropically adapted people, though it should be noted this can easily be viewed as an exception.
It can be said even with such a mask that Ancient Egypt was primarily a tropcial African people as studies note a continuity from the old kingdom to the new kingdom.
Perhaps some lighter skinned people did come to Egypt from the Levant and assimilated into Egyptian culture but I still don't think Modern Egypt as a whole with it current diversity represents Ancient Egyptian diversity as far back as the Old Kingdom.
Not as far as the ratio between various skin colors and facial features, the population for one would have been significantly smaller. I still think the light skin vs. dark skin ratio was overwhelmingly in favor of dark skinned people.
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Your many is actually around 5% of all Egyptians could be considered Black by your social definition, but many of these people don't actually think of themselves as such.
As for East Africans, Eithiopians and Somalis, clearly many of them are mixed race people, but calling them Black Africans is a matter of perception and personal choice.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: you could easily say the same about Ethiopians and Somalis, but many Egyptians and almost all Somalis and Ethiopians are BLACK PEOPLE.
The only people both in Somali and Ethiopia that would be descriped mixed are Barwanees in Somalia and Habashees in Ethiopia.The rest of the population is less mixed than anywhere in the World. Somalis have been proven to have less than 20% foriegn admixture, with 15% Asian and 5% present bantu and the rest 80% being E3b1. According to scientist the highest observed E3b1 is found among Somali males.
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