quote:but since most other African religions share a predynastic -or even dynastic(I know most of you people won't believe me on this one, but I've found a lot of facts irrefutably confirming it)- origin with AE culture, and Egypt is just a small portion of Africa moreover widely islamized, I still believe that survivances of AE culture can mostly be found in non-Egyptian Africa where traditional religions and cultures are still widely practicized
Pax Dahomenias brought up an interesting point about similarities between ancient Kmt and other areas in Africa.
One major African component that was admitted by even early Egyptologist like Henri Frankfort is divine-king-ship and the rain-maker king. I have read that certain festivals like the hed-seb festival was similar to contemporary African traditions. Reading this from mainstream sources. One book I read was by Theodore Celenko entitled Egypt in Africa[unfortunately out of print].
Pax Dahomenias, I would appreciate if you or others would be kind enough to tell us more about these connections.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is funny you should mention the Rainmaker king, because I posted something pertaining to this a while back:
Kingship:
The Rainmaker concept Among the Lulubo and Lokoya, responsibility for the various aspects of the natural environment that can be critical for community survival is allocated to the different clans. In case of a crisis (drought, infertility) the clan associated with the problem, is the target of investigations. The main investigation strategy is to check, one by one, the quarrels members of that clan have been involved in. When such a conflict has been identified, a solution is suggested: by way of reconciliation or restitution. Of particular interest are provocations of the responsible clan official. If a settlement of the dispute fails to bring the required result, there will be more rounds of investigation. If no solution is found the official of the clan associated with the disorder will be suspected of deliberately sabotaging the community. Accusations and counter-accusations will be thrown back and forth. The clan-official stands face-to-face with the community. If the disaster subsides, and if he uses the expectations focused on him cleverly, he may come out as a more powerful and wealthier member of the community. If the disaster prolongs, and there are no other candidates left to be blamed, he must be killed. He ends up as the scapegoat of his community.
This type of drama is most elaborate in the case of the Rainmaker. Of the various public concerns the weather has the greatest dramatic potential. Rains are capricious and localised. Rain falls over a period of 9 months. Its timeliness is a precondition for the two main harvests. The tension is particularly high in June when the first crop is about to be harvested and the annual period of hunger is peaking. The power of Rainmakers is built on this suspense. If they manage the rains well they gain in prestige. If the rains fail the community turns against its Rainmaker blaming him or her of drought. For as long as the drought persists, the confrontation between the king and his community will escalate. The process follows the steps listed in the attached table. It may ultimately lead to the Rainmaker being killed. In the area I studied I identified 26 cases of accomplished killings of kings within living memory. As the crisis deepens and the need for a solution rises all members of the community, including women and children, are gradually drawn into the process. It is the most dramatic manifestation of the community acting as a unified entity…
The clan-leaders, Rainmakers, the Master of the Bush, Master of the Soil, the Master of Birds etc. are given recognition by being given designated parts of game after a hunt, the first catch of white ants, etc. They may be reminded of their responsibility by an annual sacrifice at the beginning of the season. Clan- officials are also called on on a private basis: to bless a newly cleared field, heal barrenness, to protect against pests…
Between the different ecological responsibilities, rain is the most important. The importance not only depends on its practical importance for agriculture but also on its potential for generating social consensus during a period of crisis. While the Rainmaker usually shares the title of ‘King’ (Lulubo ‘osi’, Lokoya, ‘ohobu’ Lotuho ‘hobu’) with two or three other officials (usually fertility and soil) their cosmological position as ‘kings of heaven’ is matched by the highest social status.
Reciprocity in the management of natural order may be negative as well as positive. If the members of the community provoke the clan official, disorder will follow: leopards may turn up at unusual places, the soil will turn infertile, and women have miscarriages. Initial solutions for addressing such disorder are through mechanisms of exchange, by way of restitution and restoration. However the reciprocity is not between the community and the environment but between different clans using their ecological powers to blackmail others and create dependency…
In few ethnographic areas is the continuity between kingship and divinity, captured in Rene Girard’s famous phrase that “gods are dead kings as much as sacred kings are gods who have not yet died”, so easily visible as in the Nilotic world. The death of the Eastern Nilotic Rainmaker/King plays a key role. If he dies as a victim of the crowd, his death is expected to release the rain and to re-activate ecological normality. If the King dies a non-violent death his powers will remain active for at least one complete season. For that period the tomb will be the object of ritual attention. For about one year after his death the King will not be succeeded. The dead King reigns. Before the new rainy season, after the tomb has been flattened, a new person will take over. We could say that these kings enjoy a short-lived divinity. The power of the king and that of divinity are continuous. The same terms are used for both. To say that a certain rainmaker’s powers are effective the Lulubo will say: the man is really ‘ juok’ . “Juok’ is the word used for God
Source: http://www.bezinningscentrum.nl/teksten/girard/s/Simonse_Simon_1.htm ... an interesting piece that goes over the impact of ecological situations on interaction within communities and visa versa, how that ties into Kingship and ritualisation. The above is the example for the Rainmaker.
Pax Dahomensis, amongst others, has mentioned many possible connections between Niger Valley cultures, Sahelian and the Nile Valley cultures in your Nile Valley forum, which is one reason I believe that that forum should at least be saved for linking or future references, if there are no intentions for reviving it. In Pax's case, he has access to a number African published work in French or Francais, including Egyptological work, and I was amazed at the number of names I had not heard before. Anyway, it is of my opinion that, it was a good idea to open up this topic, since some of the things mentioned about these possible connections, which were previously spread out in different threads, may well now be placed under one thread.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: It is funny you should mention the Rainmaker king, because I posted something pertaining to this a while back: . . . . it was a good idea to open up this topic, since some of the things mentioned about these possible connections, which were previously spread out in different threads, may well now be placed under one thread.
I would like to add a quote from another thread posted by Ausar:
"Here is an excerpt from a book by Cyril Aldred about the rainmaker king:
But although the purely archeological evidence might appear to demonstrate a parallel development in the two areas, we know that in fact this, though superfically existing in material culture, was not the product of indentical societies, nor was it leading to such state of affairs. In Mesopotamia the beginnings of little independent city-states under tutelary gods, rulers, councils and assemblies are perceptible, though later to be submerged in a familar pattern of oriental despotism, but in Egypt from the beginning we are able to glimpse that essentially African figure, the omnipotent, rainmaking, god-king. The prehistoric cheiftain, a rainmaker and medicine-man, with magic power over the weather and therefore able to keep his people in health and prosperity becomes with the founding of the first, the Pharoah, a divine king being in command over the Nile and able to substain and protect the notion."
page 9
Cyril Aldred Egypt to the End of the Old Kingdom
following text taken from The Dawn of Civilization by Professor Stuart Piggott
Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's important to keep Piggott's single quote marks in his piece of text, otherwise what I feel is an error in interpretation happens. An Egyptian rainmaker seems on the incredible side, considering Nile flood not rain from clouds ensured soil fertility. Here's the intact quote from Piggott, who edited the Library of Early Civilizations series of which Aldred's book Egypt to the End of the Old Kingdom is one volume:
quote: But although the purely archaeological evidence might appear to demonstrate a parallel development in the two areas, we know that in fact this, though superficially existing in material culture, was not the product of identical societies, nor was it leading to such state of affairs. In Mesopotamia the beginnings of little independent city-states under tutelary gods, rulers, councils and assemblies are perceptible, though later to be submerged in a familiar pattern of oriental despotism, but in Egypt from the beginning we are able to glimpse that essentially African figure, the omnipotent, rain-making, god-king. 'The prehistoric chieftain, a rain-maker and medicine-man, with magic power over the weather and therefore able to keep his people in health and prosperity' becomes, with the founding of the first historical dynasties, 'the Pharoah, a divine being in command over the Nile and able to sustain and protect the nation'.
There was no rain-maker king over Egypt but the concept of controlling life giving waters, in Egypt's case the Nile river, was assumed by the rulers right from the start of dynastic government.
quote:Originally posted by Ausar: "Here is an excerpt from a book by Cyril Aldred about the rainmaker king:
But although the purely archeological evidence might appear to demonstrate a parallel development in the two areas, we know that in fact this, though superfically existing in material culture, was not the product of indentical societies, nor was it leading to such state of affairs. In Mesopotamia the beginnings of little independent city-states under tutelary gods, rulers, councils and assemblies are perceptible, though later to be submerged in a familar pattern of oriental despotism, but in Egypt from the beginning we are able to glimpse that essentially African figure, the omnipotent, rainmaking, god-king. The prehistoric cheiftain, a rainmaker and medicine-man, with magic power over the weather and therefore able to keep his people in health and prosperity becomes with the founding of the first, the Pharoah, a divine king being in command over the Nile and able to substain and protect the notion."
page 9
Cyril Aldred Egypt to the End of the Old Kingdom
following text taken from The Dawn of Civilization by Professor Stuart Piggott
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is a shame, but back when I was a kid, I remember seeing a lot of National Geographic shows about Africa that I can NOW say showed clear links between Egypt and Africa. There are other pieces of information I have found in papers, magazines and other places that also show how Africa is the mother of Egyptian civilization. Things I hav noticed:
1) Tribes that stage elaborate ceremonies with boats on rivers celebrating kings, the gods or both (with similar styles to AE boats). (I saw this at a African festival about 15 years ago)
2) Tribes where the people wear loin cloths and other clothing very similar to AE depictions. (Various national geographic tv spots)
3) Tribes with hairstyles very similar to AE hairstyles. (same as above)
4) Priests as far south as South Africa who wear garb EXACTLY like the priests in AE art (animal skins, scepters, feathers, etc). (news articles)
5) Cultures that feature gold as a significant part of their cermonies and culture. (magazines, etc)
6) The use of masks in ceremonies to reperesent gods and animal spirits. (same as above)
7) Tribes that use totems and standards to represent various dieties and symbols of kingship. (same)
8) The wearing of flat broad necklaces around the neck, quite similar in style those in AE. (same)
9) All manner of headresses similar to those from AE. (same)
Unfortunately it is hard to put all this into a comprehensive set of definative references, but my suspicion is that anthropologists and others who have studied Africa have known these things ALL ALONG, but keep it SEPARATE from Egyptian history/culture on purpose.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It should be noted that when the climate changed and Egypt no longer recieved rain, the Pharoah became known as a kind of 'River-flooder' so to speak!
There was an interesting program on Discovery channel about how it was the pharaoh's divine duty to make the Nile flood for his people, in the same way that kings in Sudan were suppose to bring rain to his people.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 6) The use of masks in ceremonies to reperesent gods and animal spirits. (same as above)
My question:
Did the people of Ancient Egypt have masks like they had in other parts of Africa?
I found this:
Ka masks were placed on the sarcophagus of the deceased to aid the person's spirit after death. The Egyptians believed that the spirit could wander freely from its tomb to revisit places and people it had known in life. However, if the spirit could not find its body upon its return, the spirit would be cursed to wander the earth forever without anywhere to rest. Fortunately, a ka mask, modeled after the appearance of the deceased inside, would allow the spirit to recognize its sarcophagus upon its return. AGE: Late Period, ca. 600-400 B.C.
posted
It cannot be emphasized enough how irritating this term 'tribe' is, when it comes to talking about African ethnic groups.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: It cannot be emphasized enough how irritating this term 'tribe' is, when it comes to talking about African ethnic groups.
Webster dictionary:
"a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers"
I going to stop using the term "tribe".
Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: 6) The use of masks in ceremonies to reperesent gods and animal spirits. (same as above)
My question:
Did the people of Ancient Egypt have masks like they had in other parts of Africa?
I found this:
Ka masks were placed on the sarcophagus of the deceased to aid the person's spirit after death. The Egyptians believed that the spirit could wander freely from its tomb to revisit places and people it had known in life. However, if the spirit could not find its body upon its return, the spirit would be cursed to wander the earth forever without anywhere to rest. Fortunately, a ka mask, modeled after the appearance of the deceased inside, would allow the spirit to recognize its sarcophagus upon its return. AGE: Late Period, ca. 600-400 B.C.
I believe that the only difference between Egypt and the rest of Africa is that they built in stone and left images of their religious practices and texts for us to study. The masks I am referring to are the masks worn by the dieties like horus, anubis, etc, which in turn is VERY similar to the way priests represent various dieties by using masks of animal spirits, etc in OTHER African cultures, during their religious festivals. The key here is that African ceremonies try to INVOKE the spirits of the gods using trances, masks, actors and priests to symbolize the connection between the spirits and the people. I think the Egyptian way of representing the gods grows out of this VERY ANCIENT African tradition.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The greatest problem we have to day is the destruction of African cultures by colonialism, war, disease, hunger and religious fanaticism. Therefore, it is hard to study African cultures, because of the affects these things have had on them.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I believe that the only difference between Egypt and the rest of Africa is that they built in stone and left images of their religious practices and texts for us to study.
What about the Great Zimbabwe, the stone walls of Jenne Jeno, the megaliths of the Sahara, the artistic impressions left by the Nok? I suppose I could go on with other examples. To understand the history of Africans, the peopling of the continent is a must know, not to mention linguistic reconstructions, and chronology of cultural processes such as those of economy or subsistence. The key to avoid making incorrect observations about Africans, is to thoroughly research Africa.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
Did the people of Ancient Egypt have masks like they had in other parts of Africa?
I found this:
Ka masks were placed on the sarcophagus of the deceased to aid the person's spirit after death. The Egyptians believed that the spirit could wander freely from its tomb to revisit places and people it had known in life. However, if the spirit could not find its body upon its return, the spirit would be cursed to wander the earth forever without anywhere to rest. Fortunately, a ka mask, modeled after the appearance of the deceased inside, would allow the spirit to recognize its sarcophagus upon its return. AGE: Late Period, ca. 600-400 B.C.
Type of mask: Web Page
Hello Myra,
Actually there is a big debate on wheather the anceint Egyptian wore masks for ceremonial purposes as did other Africans. The following debate is illustrated in the book Egypt in Africa by Theodore Celenko. A Egyptologist named Arlene Wolinski also contend that masks were used as ceremonial puproses. We don't have many masks that survive that were worn by people but one in particular is an Anubis mask that survives from the Greco-Roman period at the Hidelsheim museum[see the following link:http://www.cama.org.za/CAMA/countries/egypt/Makers/General/Html/RA1_64.htm]
I believe also there are masks of the deity Bes worn by commoners during festivals. If you have acess to Archaeology magazine archives you can also check out the following articles by her:
Wolinski, Arlene: Egyptian Masks: The Priest and His Role, in: Archaeology 40/1 (1987), 22 - 29.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
^I posted this elsewhere, but it may well be related to what's being said here....
Kemetian art, like any other, speaks for itself. For instance, Kemetian art had certain features that were similar to that of other ancient African culture. You'll see what I mean...
Nursing Woman. From Giza: 5th Dynasty (ca. 2420-2389 B.C.E). Limestone with remains of paint. (courtesy of metmuseum)
Jenne Statue, Terracotta from Niger Valley, Mali (courtesy of african-art.com)
quote:Problem: There is a certain spirit to Sub-Saharan artwork. From various places in Africa you can tell that the piece art is African in origins.
Its an abstract and spiritual essence of African art. An almost sullen and contorted expression of the struggle of life.
What artwork of Egyptian origin is similar to what is normally referred to as Black African art?
Most African art is not done for aesthetic purposes but for psirtual reasons. Also alot of the artwork in ancient Kmt is done for spirtual reasons such as the ancestor shrines found in different households throughout Egypt.
The mother-child figures you see in ancient Egypt of the mother of the pharoah or Isis[Auset] suckling the pharaoah as an infant. These images are similar to the maternity figures in other African countries. See the following as an example:
___Maternity figure from the Akan people of Ghana
___http://www.randafricanart.com/Mother_and_child_images_in_Africa.html{other examples of maternity figures throughout Africa]
ancient Egyptian example:
King Pepi II seated on the lap of his mother Queen Anknes-mery-re
Another similarity I have notice is the fertility dolls used in ancient Egypt known as the paddle doll is also used by the Ashanti as a fertility doll. Some scholars also believe the modern day corn aruseh[bridge of corn] amongst the fellahin is the same exact paddle doll.
The Akuba doll is a fertility image used by the Ashanti tribe. Dolls in this image are carried by pregnant women to protect their unborn babies.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is a shame, but back when I was a kid, I remember seeing a lot of National Geographic shows about Africa that I can NOW say showed clear links between Egypt and Africa. There are other pieces of information I have found in papers, magazines and other places that also show how Africa is the mother of Egyptian civilization. Things I hav noticed:
1) Tribes that stage elaborate ceremonies with boats on rivers celebrating kings, the gods or both (with similar styles to AE boats). (I saw this at a African festival about 15 years ago)
2) Tribes where the people wear loin cloths and other clothing very similar to AE depictions. (Various national geographic tv spots)
3) Tribes with hairstyles very similar to AE hairstyles. (same as above)
4) Priests as far south as South Africa who wear garb EXACTLY like the priests in AE art (animal skins, scepters, feathers, etc). (news articles)
5) Cultures that feature gold as a significant part of their cermonies and culture. (magazines, etc)
6) The use of masks in ceremonies to reperesent gods and animal spirits. (same as above)
7) Tribes that use totems and standards to represent various dieties and symbols of kingship. (same)
8) The wearing of flat broad necklaces around the neck, quite similar in style those in AE. (same)
9) All manner of headresses similar to those from AE. (same)
Unfortunately it is hard to put all this into a comprehensive set of definative references, but my suspicion is that anthropologists and others who have studied Africa have known these things ALL ALONG, but keep it SEPARATE from Egyptian history/culture on purpose.
Doug, a list of similarities between Egypt and the rest of Africa has been created, duplicated, and edited here in this forum dozens of times!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Most African art is not done for aesthetic purposes but for psirtual reasons. Also alot of the artwork in ancient Kmt is done for spirtual reasons such as the ancestor shrines found in different households throughout Egypt.
The mother-child figures you see in ancient Egypt of the mother of the pharoah or Isis[Auset] suckling the pharaoah as an infant. These images are similar to the maternity figures in other African countries. See the following as an example:
___Maternity figure from the Akan people of Ghana
___http://www.randafricanart.com/Mother_and_child_images_in_Africa.html{other examples of maternity figures throughout Africa]
ancient Egyptian example:
King Pepi II seated on the lap of his mother Queen Anknes-mery-re
Another similarity I have notice is the fertility dolls used in ancient Egypt known as the paddle doll is also used by the Ashanti as a fertility doll. Some scholars also believe the modern day corn aruseh[bridge of corn] amongst the fellahin is the same exact paddle doll.
The Akuba doll is a fertility image used by the Ashanti tribe. Dolls in this image are carried by pregnant women to protect their unborn babies.
^^Correct. I should also say a great source for comparing fertility dolls would be from Diops book, African Origin of Civilization.
Diop uses dolls from his own people--the Wolof, and I must say the similarities between them and Egyptian dolls are striking! Especially, the paddle dolls and the dolls with braids. According to Diop, these dolls were accessories of girls used to promote fertility, and judging by the similarity in appearance, I'd say Egyptian dolls were used the same way!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I believe that the only difference between Egypt and the rest of Africa is that they built in stone and left images of their religious practices and texts for us to study.
What about the Great Zimbabwe, the stone walls of Jenne Jeno, the megaliths of the Sahara, the artistic impressions left by the Nok? I suppose I could go on with other examples. To understand the history of Africans, the peopling of the continent is a must know, not to mention linguistic reconstructions, and chronology of cultural processes such as those of economy or subsistence. The key to avoid making incorrect observations about Africans, is to thoroughly research Africa.
Ok, if you want to be TECHNICAL, unlike MOST African cultures, the Egyptians built in stone and left lasting images of their religious ceremonies and processions for us to observe. Even though there were OTHER cultures in Africa that built in stone, NONE other than Egypt, carved images into stone of daily scenes of life and worship. MOST African cultures DID NOT build in stone regardless. Or do you have evidence to the contrary? Please, come off your grandstand or whatever it is trying to correct me over such a SMALL issue. If it is that siginificant show me more than a HANDFUL of cultures in ancient Africa that built in stone like the Egyptians...
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It is a shame, but back when I was a kid, I remember seeing a lot of National Geographic shows about Africa that I can NOW say showed clear links between Egypt and Africa. There are other pieces of information I have found in papers, magazines and other places that also show how Africa is the mother of Egyptian civilization. Things I hav noticed:
1) Tribes that stage elaborate ceremonies with boats on rivers celebrating kings, the gods or both (with similar styles to AE boats). (I saw this at a African festival about 15 years ago)
2) Tribes where the people wear loin cloths and other clothing very similar to AE depictions. (Various national geographic tv spots)
3) Tribes with hairstyles very similar to AE hairstyles. (same as above)
4) Priests as far south as South Africa who wear garb EXACTLY like the priests in AE art (animal skins, scepters, feathers, etc). (news articles)
5) Cultures that feature gold as a significant part of their cermonies and culture. (magazines, etc)
6) The use of masks in ceremonies to reperesent gods and animal spirits. (same as above)
7) Tribes that use totems and standards to represent various dieties and symbols of kingship. (same)
8) The wearing of flat broad necklaces around the neck, quite similar in style those in AE. (same)
9) All manner of headresses similar to those from AE. (same)
Unfortunately it is hard to put all this into a comprehensive set of definative references, but my suspicion is that anthropologists and others who have studied Africa have known these things ALL ALONG, but keep it SEPARATE from Egyptian history/culture on purpose.
Doug, a list of similarities between Egypt and the rest of Africa has been created, duplicated, and edited here in this forum dozens of times!
Why dont you direct that at the thread starter? Or is there something I am missing?
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I believe that the only difference between Egypt and the rest of Africa is that they built in stone and left images of their religious practices and texts for us to study.
What about the Great Zimbabwe, the stone walls of Jenne Jeno, the megaliths of the Sahara, the artistic impressions left by the Nok? I suppose I could go on with other examples. To understand the history of Africans, the peopling of the continent is a must know, not to mention linguistic reconstructions, and chronology of cultural processes such as those of economy or subsistence. The key to avoid making incorrect observations about Africans, is to thoroughly research Africa. [/qb]
Ok, if you want to be TECHNICAL, unlike MOST African cultures, the Egyptians built in stone and left lasting images of their religious ceremonies and processions for us to observe. Even though there were OTHER cultures in Africa that built in stone, NONE other than Egypt, carved images into stone of daily scenes of life and worship. MOST African cultures DID NOT build in stone regardless. Or do you have evidence to the contrary? Please, come off your grandstand or whatever it is trying to correct me over such a SMALL issue. If it is that siginificant show me more than a HANDFUL of cultures in ancient Africa that built in stone like the Egyptians...
Why not come off your grandstone and READ. I just provided you examples, and yet, you still don't get it. Do I have to spoon-feed you everything?
Ps - I suggest you browse through the Nile Valley forum, to actually learn something about African cultures!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Why dont you direct that at the thread starter? Or is there something I am missing?
Sorry, but I did not mean for my response to you to sound negative. I am just stating that three to four threads have been made already on the subject. If Ausar wants to bring it up again fine, he's the moderator anyway. If it will drive home the point how very African Egypt is.
I've said this before and I'll say it again: on top of every African aspect I know of in Egyptian culture, I learn of another one every day!! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I believe that the only difference between Egypt and the rest of Africa is that they built in stone and left images of their religious practices and texts for us to study.
What about the Great Zimbabwe, the stone walls of Jenne Jeno, the megaliths of the Sahara, the artistic impressions left by the Nok? I suppose I could go on with other examples. To understand the history of Africans, the peopling of the continent is a must know, not to mention linguistic reconstructions, and chronology of cultural processes such as those of economy or subsistence. The key to avoid making incorrect observations about Africans, is to thoroughly research Africa.
Ok, if you want to be TECHNICAL, unlike MOST African cultures, the Egyptians built in stone and left lasting images of their religious ceremonies and processions for us to observe. Even though there were OTHER cultures in Africa that built in stone, NONE other than Egypt, carved images into stone of daily scenes of life and worship. MOST African cultures DID NOT build in stone regardless. Or do you have evidence to the contrary? Please, come off your grandstand or whatever it is trying to correct me over such a SMALL issue. If it is that siginificant show me more than a HANDFUL of cultures in ancient Africa that built in stone like the Egyptians...
Why not come off your grandstone and READ. I just provided you examples, and yet, you still don't get it. Do I have to spoon-feed you everything?
Ps - I suggest you browse through the Nile Valley forum, to actually learn something about African cultures! [/QB]
Browse the Nile Valley for what? It isn't that I did not KNOW that there were other cultures that built in stone, including those of Meroe, but that MOST African cultures DID NOT and therefore whatever evidence we could gather about them is proably decayed and gone. My point still stands unless you can PROVE otherwise. You are trying to act as if I was omitting a HUGE number of cultures that built in stone in Africa. The number of cultures that built in stone in Africa is relatively small versus those that did not. And of the ones that did, only Egypt and Meroe/Kush left inscriptions carved into the stone that would last thousands of years and allow us to see what their religious ceremonies and other aspects of daily life looked like. To me Meroe is an extension of Egyptian culture (or vice versa), so outside of those, WHICH culture in Africa left stone monuments with detailed carvings of daily life and culture on the scale of Egypt?
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: It isn't that I did not KNOW that there were other cultures that built in stone, including those of Meroe, but that MOST African cultures DID NOT and therefore whatever evidence we could gather about them is proably decayed and gone. My point still stands unless you can PROVE otherwise.
Tell us what "Most" African cultures you actually know about? Your point has been pointless; you've said nothing of significance...That's the point!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK maybe I am missing something then..... please fill me in:
To me Meroe is an extension of Egyptian culture (or vice versa), so outside of those, WHICH culture in Africa left stone monuments with detailed carvings of daily life and culture on the scale of Egypt?
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The point is that what I said was RIGHT unless you can SHOW me where I am wrong, boy I hope you are right, since I want to see other African cultures that built in stone and left DETAILED inscriptions and carvings of everyday life and activities like Egypt.......... I actually HOPE you are right. Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The point is that what I said was RIGHT unless you can SHOW me where I am wrong, boy I hope you are right, since I want to see other African cultures that built in stone and left DETAILED inscriptions and carvings of everyday life and activities like Egypt.......... I actually HOPE you are right.
LOL. Right about what? The bullsh*t that no other African culture has built in stones, or left symbols of religion and culture via artwork? I would hope even you would be smart enough at this point, to know just how absurd you are looking, at this very moment! Why not start with a basic list, posted elsewhere, like the following, for STARTERS!
Six of those on that list, are actually West African. There were of course, other west African kingdoms not mentioned on that list. But, there is a great deal to learn about these kingdoms alone, before one salivates for more.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: OK maybe I am missing something then..... please fill me in:
To the contrary, it would seem that the rest of us are missing something about what you seem to know. You act as though you know much about African cultures. Please tell us about the "Most African" cultures you know about, so as to reach the very questionable and broad statements you've made about these "Most" African cultures.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
No I act as if I made a valid point and you are wasting my time by not answering the question I posed. If you KNOW SO MUCH then answer it! Period. IF not then...........
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: No I act as if I made a valid point and you are wasting my time by not answering the question I posed. If you KNOW SO MUCH then answer it! Period. IF not then...........
My friend, the stalling is on your end. Why don't we start our discussion from the "Most African" cultures you know about, so we can determine how much you really know, and why you came to the conclusions you did. I was even prepared to help you, by providing you with that very basic list!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, how about this thread is for SHARING information about how Egypt is like other African cultures. Whether I know a lot or a little is irrelevant to the point of posting here. Therefore, if you HAVE it share it. Meaning if the word MOST is wrong, then PROVE it, plain and simple. I am not ABOVE correction, but you arent doing anything but going in circles. YOU made a point of CORRECTING me, I disagree, but hey SHOW me where I am wrong....
FYI:
quote: most (mōst) pronunciation adj. Superlative of many., much.
1. 1. Greatest in number: won the most votes. 2. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion. 2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.
n.
Just in case you were confused about it. Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: No, how about this thread is for SHARING information about how Egypt is like other African cultures. Whether I know a lot or a little is irrelevant to the point of posting here. Therefore, if you HAVE it share it. Meaning if the word MOST is wrong, then PROVE it, plain and simple. I am not ABOVE correction, but you arent doing anything but going in circles. YOU made a point of CORRECTING me, I disagree, but hey SHOW me where I am wrong....
FYI:
quote: most (mōst) pronunciation adj. Superlative of many., much.
1. 1. Greatest in number: won the most votes. 2. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion. 2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.
n.
Just in case you were confused about it.
Jibberish, and more stalling tactics! You said "Most" African cultures, and so, if we are to reach a meaningful conclusion of this discussion, we have to know what those "Most" cultures are, that you know so well, so as to reach the strange conclusion you did. We don't know what is in your mind, and so, it is important for you to demonstrate to us which specific African cultures the extent of your knowledge has allowed you to reach such an interesting, but indeed questionable conclusion about them! We are waiting. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
YOU said I was wrong so prove it. Please stop wasting thread space over nonsense.
But lets break it down:
lets say A represents all the cultures in Africa during the Egyptian dynastic period that built in stone. Likewise, lets make B represent all cultures in Africa during the Egyptian dynastic period that did not build in stone.
I said most cultures in Africa at the time did not build in stone, meaning A > B. You questioned by use of the term most, meaning you believe that B > A.
Find B and A where B > A.
Do you understand?
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: YOU said I was wrong so prove it. Please stop wasting thread space over nonsense.
But lets break it down:
lets say A represents all the cultures in Africa during the Egyptian dynastic period that built in stone. Likewise, lets make B represent all cultures in Africa during the Egyptian dynastic period that did not build in stone.
I said most cultures in Africa at the time did not build in stone, meaning A > B. You questioned by use of the term most, meaning you believe that B > A.
Find B and A where B > A.
Do you understand?
See, how can I know or prove you are wrong, if you don't specify what it is you are talking about? Remember, pseudo-scholars hide behind ambiguities for a reason! I said your claims are highly questionable, and I stand by that claim. What specifically, were those "Most African cultures" you were referring to? You alone know what it is that you had in mind, what you consider "Most African cultures"? We don't know that; you have to demonstrate it via words, so we can start our discussion with those specifics. Tell us about these specific cultures, that made you jump into such a broad conclusion about them. Let's not break things down to clowning games, as you put forth above. Lets deal with SPECIFICS, and that starts with what you call "MOST AFRICAN CULTURES"!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: My friend, the stalling is on your end. Why don't we start our discussion from the "Most African" cultures you know about, so we can determine how much you really know, and why you came to the conclusions you did. I was even prepared to help you, by providing you with that very basic list!
I rest my case! Case in point; we still don't have the specifics or even the names of the "MOST African Cultures" that Doug casually tossed around, not expecting to be questioned on his strange claims. If Doug knew or had a clue about what it is he's talking about, I wouldn't have needed to repeat my request on this; it would have been swiftly provided, but we all know what the case is, don't we!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most African cultures means MOST cultures IN Africa. I mean AFRICAN CULTURES or dont you understand what African cultures are?
Lets break it down again:
African Cultures means cultures inhabiting the continent of Africa and formed by people native to the continent of Africa.
Most African cultures did not build in stone like the Egyptians did. PERIOD.
Thats it that is all and there is nothing else to say. UNLESS you can prove me wrong. I dont have to say ANYTHING ELSE. I already said it. You are clowning YOURSELF by trying to make something SO SIMPLE into something complex. No matter if I can name ALL of the cultures in Africa at the time of dynastic Egypt, my point would still be the same. It is not an issue of NAMING it is an issue of COUNTING. MATH plain and simple, no matter what YOU want to make it into. The issue is one of COUNTING not naming, the ONLY way I could be wrong is if the NUMBER of African cultures that BUILT in STONE like the Egyptians is GREATER than the NUMBER of African cultures that did NOT build in stone, no matter WHAT the names of the individual cultures are. THAT is logic pure and simple. If I said COUNT how many cows are in the pasture, would I CARE if you came back and told me the NAME of each COW? NO! If you were SERIOUS and not just being argumentative just to be argumentative YOU would just FLATLY say that there were MORE African cultures that built in stone than weren't. I would still disagree, but seeing as how the ones you named count to less than 10, I dont see the need to name any since it is obvious that there WERE more than 10 cultures in Africa that did NOT build in stone at that time.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Most African cultures means MOST cultures IN Africa.
...in which case, you shouldn't have any problem naming them; why are you stalling?
quote:Doug M: I mean AFRICAN CULTURES or dont you understand what African cultures are?
I know what Africa is, and what 'culture' is. Do you? Do you know what African cultures you had in mind, or do you not know what cultures you had in mind? Did you have any in mind to begin with?
quote:Doug M: Lets break it down again:
African Cultures means cultures inhabiting the continent of Africa and formed by people native to the continent of Africa.
Most African cultures did not build in stone like the Egyptians did. PERIOD.
Will you cut the clowning, and address the specifics asked of you!
quote:Doug M: Thats it that is all and there is nothing else to say.
That is precisely what I guessed: hotair; don't expect any forthcoming substantiation!
quote:Doug M: UNLESS you can prove me wrong. I dont have to say ANYTHING ELSE.
What is wrong with you; I mean, upstairs? How can I prove anything, when we don't even know what "Most African Cultures" you are referring to? In how many ways can I ask this question in English?
quote:Doug M: I already said it.
Nothing?! You got that right!
quote:Doug M: You are clowning YOURSELF by trying to make something SO SIMPLE into something complex.
I will have to agree that I descending myself low to your level, by entertaining your sub-intellectual method of discourse here. If it were as "SIMPLE" as you say, where are the specifics of those "MOST African cultures" that has been asked of you, many threads ago now? Apparently, it isn't that "simple" after all, huh!
quote:Doug M: No matter if I can name ALL of the cultures in Africa at the time of dynastic Egypt, my point would still be the same. It is not an issue of NAMING it is an issue of COUNTING. MATH plain and simple, no matter what YOU want to make it into.
So, are you now 'upgrading' your numbers to include "ALL" African cultures, except Egypt? How many African cultures would that be; are you sure you can even count those, as plainly and simply as you say; I don't know...after the way you handled my earlier request to provide us with the specifics of those "Most African cultures" you mentioned, if you can handle math "plain and simple"! But don't let me interrupt your stalling games. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, you are obviously ignorant of Africa and its cultures if you do not consider Egypt part of Africa. Egypt is a child of Africa and of this there is no doubt. Africa has had hundreds of cultures, probably too many to count. Honestly, the issue to me here is how you define a culture. For example you mention the Great Zimbabwe. Do you mean to tell me that there were NO OTHER cultures in that area except that ONE? Honestly, you are being quite biased in trying to imply that the ONLY cultures that existed in Africa were those that built in stone. It is obvious that your logic skills are either lacking or YOU REALLY HAVE NO CONCEPT OF WHAT I MEAN. You want to seem like you are intelligent and analytical but you miss the OBVIOUS and then try to phsycho analyze all those who dont agree with you.
I dont agree with you. Period. Your ad infinitum attempts to question my intelligence are nothing more than the acts of someone desparate to avoid the issue. Like I said, there is ONLY one solution to this argument. YOU prove that there were MORE cultures in Africa that built in stone than did not build in stone. Anything else is just a bunch of TALK on your part, no matter HOW much you try and sound intelligent.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: No, you are obviously ignorant of Africa and its cultures if you do not consider Egypt part of Africa.
Okay, I'm ignorant of Africa and its cultures. It makes matters even more interesting, because now I am sure you'll enlighten me:
For the millionth time, which "Most African cultures" were referring to, when you mentioned those words. It is generally understood that, if someone makes that claim, that at least he/she would have had an idea of what it is he/she had in mind. Did you know what you had in mind or were you ignorant of what it was, you were supposed to have in mind?
quote:Doug M: Egypt is a child of Africa and of this there is no doubt. Africa has had hundreds of cultures, probably too many to count.
Are you telling me, that you said "Most African cultures", and yet, you didn't even have an idea as to what those "Most African cultures" were? LOL.
quote:Doug M: Honestly, the issue to me here is how you define a culture. For example you mention the Great Zimbabwe. Do you mean to tell me that there were NO OTHER cultures in that area except that ONE?
I don't know, I am ignorant of African cultures, as you said; You tell me, if there was any besides the Great Zimbabwe in the region!
quote:Doug M: Honestly, you are being quite biased in trying to imply that the ONLY cultures that existed in Africa were those that built in stone. It is obvious that your logic skills are either lacking or YOU REALLY HAVE NO CONCEPT OF WHAT I MEAN.
Good; now you do us a favor, and demonstrate to us that YOU have a concept of what you were talking about, when you said "Most African cultures". What are these "Most African cultures" you are referring to; which cultures did you have in mind when you said that, or are these bogus and nameless cultures that you tossed around, to make a bogus claim?
quote:Doug M: you want to seem like you are intelligent and analytical but you miss the OBVIOUS and then try to phsycho analyze all those who dont agree with you.
My friend, it doesn't exactly take a genius to see that your claims were questionable, to say the least.
quote:Doug M: I dont agree with you. Period.
What is there to agree or disagree with, when we have yet to establish that you know what you were talking about. But no matter, we will get to the bottom of that, hopefully tonight!
quote:Doug M: Your ad infinitum attempts to question my intelligence are nothing more than the acts of someone desparate to avoid the issue.
Avoid what issue? See, that's what I'm hoping we will get to the bottom of!
quote:Doug M: Like I said, there is ONLY one solution to this argument. YOU prove that there were MORE cultures in Africa that built in stone than did not build in stone.
Why do I need to prove this?...I mean, I'm supposed to be ignorant of Africa and its cultures, and you are supposed to be the most brightened individual when it comes to "Most African cultures"! But let me see: so that you won't have to name those "Most African cultures" that you mentioned, so as to give us a starting point for the discussion; in other words, let you off the hook? So we won't have to find out whether you have a clue of what you were saying?
quote:Doug M: Anything else is just a bunch of TALK on your part, no matter HOW much you try and sound intelligent.
Suggestion: Try even harder at trying to sound "intelligent". At this point; you haven't been doing so well.
Which is worse? Someone who is ignorant of something that he/she has to learn more about, or someone who is ignorant of what goes on in his/her own mind, i.e, what they are supposed to be thinking about. I'll give you props though, for projecting yourself in the direction of the latter.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Problem: There is a certain spirit to Sub-Saharan artwork. From various places in Africa you can tell that the piece art is African in origins.
Its an abstract and spiritual essence of African art. An almost sullen and contorted expression of the struggle of life.
What artwork of Egyptian origin is similar to what is normally referred to as Black African art?
Most African art is not done for aesthetic purposes but for psirtual reasons. Also alot of the artwork in ancient Kmt is done for spirtual reasons such as the ancestor shrines found in different households throughout Egypt.
The mother-child figures you see in ancient Egypt of the mother of the pharoah or Isis[Auset] suckling the pharaoah as an infant. These images are similar to the maternity figures in other African countries. See the following as an example:
___Maternity figure from the Akan people of Ghana
___http://www.randafricanart.com/Mother_and_child_images_in_Africa.html{other examples of maternity figures throughout Africa]
ancient Egyptian example:
King Pepi II seated on the lap of his mother Queen Anknes-mery-re
Another similarity I have notice is the fertility dolls used in ancient Egypt known as the paddle doll is also used by the Ashanti as a fertility doll. Some scholars also believe the modern day corn aruseh[bridge of corn] amongst the fellahin is the same exact paddle doll.
The Akuba doll is a fertility image used by the Ashanti tribe. Dolls in this image are carried by pregnant women to protect their unborn babies.
We might be able to show that, culturally speaking, AE lifestyle was very similar to other African people and the art work of these people nicely depicts this. However, the art style is not at all the same. What is often considered Black African art, often has similar styles of spiritualness and abstraction. Even when we find naturalism in Sub-Saharan art, there are clear cultural differences tht are depicted such as scarification in Ife art:
We may see that the way of life of the AE were similar to Sub-Saharan Africans but I don't see the art style similarities. It seems to me that the style is an import from Eurasia.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
This artifact has some Egyptian like qualities especially in terms of the regalia.
By enlarge though, I just don't see the spiritual sytlism in AE art that most of traditionally considered Black African art contains.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Osirion, I already showed how ancient Egyptian artwork was similar in both the fertility figures and maternity figures. None of the following is found in Eur-asian cultures Matter of fact, it was actually the ancient Egyptians who influenced the Eur-asians with the Kuros statue figures.
Most of ancient Egyptian artwork in the various tombs are meant to be spirtual doubles of the person. It was believed that the ka of the deceased could enter the sculpture.
Everything in ancient Egyptian culture from the artwork down even the architecture had a spirtual meaning.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
As I said, I dont HAVE to in order to say what I said. It is YOU who keeps trying to force this into a discussion of MY knowledge of African culture. You keep going on about this or that, as if it makes a difference. I know what I said and I stand behind it. YOU prove YOUR point. YOU profess to BE SO KNOWLEDGABLE, so PROVE IT.
I will say for the 50000th time.
MOST ancient African cultures STILL did not build in stone like Ancient Egypt. I dont CARE if you dont like it, like me or like that I said it. It is TRUE and UNTIL you can prove otherwise STILL stands. What does linguistics have to do with it? If they didnt build in stone, they didnt build in stone. Language is not stone building. Same with chronology, if there is no stone there is no stone. Unless we find MORE stone ruins from OTHER ancient African kingdoms than Zimbabwe, Meroe, Egypt, Carthage, Nabta Playa and maybe a few others. MY point is still true. Unless you dont believe any OTHER cultures existed in Africa, EXCEPT those that built in stone. Since of course the ONLY cultures YOU want to recognize in Africa, are those that built in stone.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've posted this before, and I'll post again, because as we've seen, some folks have the tendency to blabber about things which they seem to exhibit little comprehension of. When I said earlier that, "To understand the history of Africans, the peopling of the continent is a must know, not to mention linguistic reconstructions, and chronology of cultural processes such as those of economy or subsistence. The key to avoid making incorrect observations about Africans, is to thoroughly research Africa.", I knew what I was doing.
Doug talks of African cultures at "the time of Dynastic Egypt", and yet provides no specific chronology, no specific place, or specific culture, just the mere blabber of nameless cultures, needless to say a logical fallacy, under the umbrella of "Most African cultures". Hence, it is not surprising that the guy wasn't immediately able to tell us, specifically which cultures he had in mind, when spewing out those words. To understand why one cannot simply talk about African cultures without any consideration to the peopling of Africa, and the other points I highlighted above, is because one needs to know the settling patterns of humans throughout the various timeframes, and chronology of such events in association with cultural development.
"Since then some disillusion has set in. First, in spite of all the declarations of principle, most historians are simply not interested in the results of archeology, and for the most part they remain unaware of what is going on in their sister discipline. Perhaps the last discover that truly made an impact on them was the excavation in 1977 of Jenne-Jeno, because the locality became a city well ***before*** any Muslim North African influences were felt in West Africa." - HISTORIANS, ARE ARCHEOLOGISTS YOUR SIBLINGS? By Jan Vansina; University of Wisconsin-Madison
From an earlier discussion, the following was presented.
quote:Heru:
I've read a little about the Nok and Kintampo cultures. I don't know if these are the earliest signs of "civilization" in W. Africa but they are the oldest I've heard of. How far do these cultures go back? I'm not sure myself but I think it's safe to surmise that they're not nearly as old as the Pre-Dynastic cultures of Upper and Lower Egypt.
The beginnings of the Nok culture is still obscure, and so, any dating available is pure speculation. The dates available in various writings are based on carbon dating of artifacts so far found. As you know, material that perish and cannot be carbon dated, are lost forever in time. Sculptures and iron-smelting furnaces have been located in the location where the Nok culture was supposed to have been based, where modern Nigeria now lies.
Anyway, based on what has been found so far, this may be a reasonable but very brief chronology of what was going on in the Western regions of the continent.
CHRONOLOGY OF ANCIENT WEST AFRICA
After 12,000 BCE: Beginning of a wetter phase in Africa north of the equator. Populations ancestral to most West Africans make up the foragers and hunters of these lands.
By about 8,000 BCE: Great lakes formed in Niger Bend, Lake Chad and Upper Nile regions.
Spread of 'African aquatic culture' through this 'great lakes' region.
Sedentary fishing communities using pottery and microlithic tools become established long the shores of lakes and rivers.
Saharan region enjoys savanna-type climate. Favorable conditions lead to population growth.
9,000 to 6,000 BCE: Saharan region in its wettest phases.
By 6,000 BCE: Evidence of domesticated 'humpless' cattle in the Saharan region. Also seed-cropping (or harvesting) of grains.
6,000-2,500 BCE: Spread of predominantly cattle-raising peoples throughout the Sahara. Probably ancestral to modern-day Berber groups.
3,000-1,000 BCE: Farming spreads through the former fishing belt of the tropical woodland savannas and forest margins of West Africa. This Guinea Neolithic era saw the domestication of millets, rice, sorghum, yams, and palm trees among others.
After 2,500 BCE: Saharan region enters a period of rapid desertification, driving people and larger game animals to seek better watered lands to the north and south for habitation. Neolithic settlements spread along the Saharan borderlands and near rivers and lakes in the West.
1,200-700 BCE: Excavations at Dar Tichitt (modern Mauritania) reveal progression from large, un-walled lakeside villages to smaller walled hilltop villages in response to drier climate and increasing pressure from nomads.
After 2,000 BCE: Favorable climatic conditions and developing technology and socio-cultural systems lead to population growth in the Niger valleys. Neolithic farming spreading south and east from the area of modern-day Cameroon. Probably associated with speakers of proto-Bantu languages.
After 500 BCE: Advent of iron-smelting and iron use in West Africa. Height of the civilization known as Nok, which produced art work ancestral to that of later Yoruba and lgbo peoples.
WEST AFRICA: C. 800 BCE TO 1591 AD/CE
By 800 BCE Neolithic agricultural peoples inhabit the best lands of the savanna and forest margins. Regional trade networks based on the exchange of salt, fish, pottery, and other regional specialties developing. Small, clan-based villages typical of agricultural areas. Nomads dominate in the drier areas.
-800 to -500 Development of Carthage in the north stimulates exchanges of products across the Sahara Desert, managed by desert Berbers using horses, oxen and chariots. Iron use psreads into the region from the north or east, or both. Larger scale settlements appearing in southern Mauritania. the middle Niger River basin, and the Jos plateau region. These areas correspond respectively to the probable ancestral homes of the modern Soninke (northern Mande); Songhai; and Yoruba peoples.
-500 to -200 Iron use spreads rapidly throughout West Africa, stimulating population growth, trade, and urbanization. Iron-age peoples of Nok (modern Nigeria) produce magnificent terra cotta sculptures stylistically ancestral to later Yoruba and Benin art. Indirect trade continues across increasingly well-marked Saharan trails, still traversed by horse or ox-drawn vehicles.
-800 to +200 Era of Nok civilization. Bantu expansion 'takes off' to the south and east. Earliest towns, such as Jenne, growing up along the Niger on its most northerly stretch.
-100 to +100 Camel use reaches the western Sahara via Berbers living in its southern reaches.
c.100 to 400 CE Camel using Saharan Berber peoples, such as the Taureg and Sanhaja, develop trans-Saharan trade routes, linking the Maghrib and West Africa directly for the first time. Salt, copper, gold, dates, slaves, agricultural produce, manufactured goods and ivory among the goods exchanged. Soninke-led Ghana, Songhai-led Gao grow as middlemen for the expanding commerce. Trade routes also link Nigeria and Lake Chad to North Africa.
400 to 900 Ghana, with its capital at Kumbi Saleh, becomes the first regional "great power." With their control over the southern end of the trans-Saharan trade and the northern end of the gold trade, the Ghana of Wagadu can afford the cavalry necessary to enforce his rule throughout the lands between the Niger and the Senegal Rivers. The trans-Saharan boom stimulates the growth of regional trade in copper, iron and other goods, both agricultural and manufactured.
750 to 1000 Muslim merchants from the North become a major force in trans-Saharan and West African commerce. Islam spreads to Takrur and Ghana. Among the Kanuri of Lake Chad, the Sefawa family founds a dynasty who will rule Kanem for a thousand years. The trans-Saharan trade grows rapidly along with the expansion of the Islamic world. Artists of Igbo Ukwu in southern Nigeria produce fine works in bronze.
ca.1000 Foundation of Ife, the political and spiritual capital of the Yoruba.
1054 to 1070 Almoravid Sanhaja establish control over trans-Saharan routes from the borders of Ghana to Morocco, greatly weakening Ghana.
11th & 12th c. Several Sudannic kings convert to Islam. Commerce in the Sudan gradually comes to be dominated by Muslims, both of local and north African origin.
13th c. Rise of Mali under the great Mande hero, Sundiata Keita. Ghana incorporated into the new great power. From its new capital at Niane on the Niger, Mali develops trade with the developing gold fields of the Akan in modern-day Ghana.
14th c Empire of Mali dominates the Western half of West Africa, controlling the gold and salt trade; promoting Islam; and providing peace and prosperity to its region. Mansa Musa, the best known ruler of Mali, made the pilgrimage to Mecca.
15th c. Mali suffers dynastic difficulties and economic challenges as the gold fields move further south and east. Songhai gains strength. Portuguese merchants begin trading directly with the Akan along the coast of modern Ghana.
16th c. Songhai, with its capital at Gao replaces Mali as the imperial power of West Africa. Islamic learning flourishes with government patronage in the university town of Timbuktu.
Ghana (Wagadu) is usually mentioned as the first Sahelian kingdom. I don't think anyone sincerely knows when Ghana was established as a kingdom though. I've noticed a lot of guessing concerning this. I've also noticed a lot of guessing when it comes to the Nok and Kintampo cultures. Websites discussing W. African history usually don't mention the Nok or Kintampo cultures and jump right into Ghana. It also seems like we don't know much about W. African history before the spread of Islam.
Between the onset of Pharonic Egypt and lets say the New Kingdom (1500 BC?), what were these other Saharans doing?
You are right the beginnings of Ghanaian empire is obscure. Most of the datings various historians go by, are from Arabic sources, with whom the West Africans traded in those times. But the nature of trade between these folks, tells us that West Africans were already mature traders by time of the earliest available Arabic writings, concerning these Arabic encounters with West Africans. Needless to say, the Ghanaian empire predates those early records from Arabic trades, and may well have been a mature kingdom by then. At any rate, evidence from Jenne, tells us more about west Africans in that region. The findings there thus far have shown the emergence of a city in that region and a complex culture involving trade.
THE INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT OF JENNE-JENO As a result of McIntosh and McIntosh’s precessual archaeological approach to excavating Jenne-Jeno and its hinterland, it has been demonstrated that instead of developing as a result of the trans-Saharan trade, Jenne-Jeno was an indigenous town possessing much earlier origins (Hall 1996: 221).
The earliest occupants of Jenne-Jeno (c. 250 BC - 50 AD) possessed iron and had a subsistence base that was predominantly aquatic, e.g. waterfowl and fish, although bovids are also found that are possible those of the domestic Bos taurus (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 15) Permanent mudbrick architecture is lacking, but there are large numbers Saharan affinity sand-tempered pottery (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 15).
Phase II (40 - 400 AD) has yielded the earliest known example of African rice -domesticated (McIntosh 1981: 15-16). The cultural continuity from Phase I is demonstrated, amongst others, from the continued faunal dominance of aquatic animals and bovids. Here too is the first permanent mudbrick architecture and this, together with the rice and crowded cemeteries, provides a possible association with the increase in settlement size and a likely rise in population (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 16).
It was in late Phase III and early Phase IV (750-1150 AD) that Jenne-Jeno achieved its greatest growth, reaching 33 hectares - a figure to which might be added the adjacent mound of Hambarketolo, connected to Jenne-Jeno via an earthen dike, of 9 hectares - and a population which was ten times greater than that of today (McIntosh &a McIntosh 1981: 16, Hall 1996: 227). The shallower Hambarketolo deposits of 3 metres, suggest a later date for the origin of the city by comparison with and functioning part of Jenne-Jeno at its height (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 16-17). Both Hambarketolo and Jenne-Jeno declined during Phase IV and were abandoned, although the causes are yet unclear (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 17). A possible explanation is that the start of the abandonment occurs in the same period as that reported by al-Sa’di for the conversion of Jenne-Jeno to Islam, in the thirteenth century AD (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 17).
The excavators hypothesise that the new-converted ruler and/or the elite of Jenne-Jeno founded a new Islamic, city (Jenne) on a new unconnected site (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 17). Control of trade belonged to native Muslim merchants and the new city replaced the old as the centre of economic activities, a view reinforced by the surviving historical records (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 17).
To examine the extent of urbanism, it is crucial to look closely at the surrounding countryside in an attempt to identify a system of hierarchical settlements on the premise that the city is a settlement providing specialised functions in relations with those around it (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 17). Of those 42 sites within the 25km survey area reported by the excavators, none had been abandoned before Phase III whilst roughly three-quarters had by the close of Phase IV (c. 1400 AD).
These sites had been occupied for hundreds of years previously (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 18). The surrounding lands of Jenne-Jeno display the greatest site density in the late Phase II and early Phase IV, after which decline is evident (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 18). All the indirect evidence, including the ceramic and feature categories, points towards Jenne-Jeno being the centre of an integrated settlement hierarchy with its hinterland.
Thus the survey results confirm the archaeological evidence from Jenne-Jeno itself - that there was a rapid development during Phase III between 400-900 AD, and that the survey sites hit their greatest density at roughly the same time (late Phase III - early Phase IV) that Jenne-Jeno reached its largest growth extent (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 19). Jenne-Jeno’s decline was part of the general population reorganisation that affected other floodplain settlement sites also in the western Inland Niger Delta, the causes of which are unknown but which preceded the various political disturbances created by the Bambara and Fulani migrations (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 19).
The early expansion of Jenne-Jeno in the first centuries of the first millennium was likely due to the local and regional Inland Delta and adjacent area trade networks developing. Its position at the boundary of the two ecology zones of the dry savanna and the Sahel, together with the lack of stone and iron ore on its alluvial plain, gave the settlement great opportunities of involvement as inter-regional trade expanded (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 19).
The Inland Niger Delta possess no iron ore right for smelting, and so the slag at Jenne-Jeno and other sites within the survey area mentioned above must have been imported either in the form of iron or bloomery iron that had remnants of slag attached to it (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 19). Because of weight and easier and cheaper transport, the latter option is probably the correct one. The excavators believe that the source of the iron ore is Benedougou and that the trade stretches back close to Jenne-Jeno’s origins (McIntosh & McIntosh 1981: 19, 20).
THE INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT OF GHANA Although the Ghana Empire is the earliest historically documented kingdom in the West African Sahel, it is in fact the second complex political system that arose in this area (Munson 1980: 457). The historical records of Ghana come from Arab sources dating between 800 and 1650 AD, but Ghana had been in existence for long before then and was centred in the present-day Sahal region of south-eastern Mauritania and western Mali. (Munson 1980: 457) - courtesy of Mikey Brass
Oral history is sometimes as good as written history. If we were to throw out oral history then we would have to throw out the Illid and the Odyssey[sp] because most of these were orally composed.
Both the Tarikh Al Sudan and Tarikh Al Fattah were written at later dates in Timbuktu but indicate that Ghana was very ancient and well established before the Almoravids ever came in 1060.
What we have in archaeological proof that kingdoms like Ghana came from earlier archaeological sites like Dar Tchitt. From Dar Tchitt we find walled cities much like found in Ghana.
You can write better history with a pick and a shovel in archaeology than sometimes with written history.
Of course you are correct.
“...Therefore meaningful reconstructions can only be undertaken when enough sites have been excavated and when the diversity of artifacts and features recovered is sufficient to make such a surprise very unlikely. The second condition is as important as the first. In the case of Zambia, for instance, there are plenty of excavated sites, but the diversity of artefacts and features recovered is still too narrow to allow for a satisfactory reconstruction.
As to complementary strength, an excellent illustration of this is the case of Daboya, a late urban site in Ghana. Daboya was already an old and sizeable settlement when it became part of the Gonja kingdom before 1600. In the later eighteenth century Gonja itself was overrun by Asante, to which it became tributary. Much of the known information about the kingdom stems from the Kitab Ghunja, compiled ca. 1751. Yet excavations at Gonja showed that both the Gonja and the Asante conquests remain invisible on the site.144 One might conclude from this that the "resolution" of archeological data is not good enough to capture even momentous political events. Be that as it may, what one should conclude is that even these momentous political events left little mark on the daily lives and living standards of the inhabitants of Daboya. In other words, the successive political upheavals were of little moment to the whole of the population. Hitherto historians had not appreciated how much the Kitab Ghunja had misrepresented the past by elevating the experience of a small political and religious minority to the level of a universal upheaval. The archeological record in this case documents the fate of ordinary people and thereby substantially alters the accepted reconstruction.
Other excavations of historically well-documented sites bring similar lessons relating to the majority of the population by showing, for instance, to what degree and in what ways they were affected by European imports or the nearby presence of European settlements or by political upheavals.145 One lesson of archeology then is the danger of overstressing the importance of single events, usually political upheavals, and the need to focus more on daily life, daily routines, and the standards of living which affect the majority of the population--in short, on all those factors which are taken as known by most written or oral accounts and yet give substance and meaning to the events described in such accounts.” - HISTORIANS, ARE ARCHEOLOGISTS YOUR SIBLINGS? By Jan Vansina; University of Wisconsin-Madison
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic