posted                         

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Originally posted by Supercar:
Is there any chance of getting a more reliable link to the images that don't show on my screen?

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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According to the Classical Writers the Pelasgians originated in Africa.

see:

http://clyde.winters.tripod.com/chapter6.html

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Now why would I bother linking to one of YOUR sources?! LOL

Sorry but there is no evidence to link Pelasgians with Africans, but only to Anatolia. Their language was Anatolian, their myths were Anatolian, the people were Anatolian period.

Let's get back to reality.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Greeks are the ones with African ancestry but not Turks.

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This is not correct. Not to feed into Mr. Winters' putting some emphasis on the so-called "Afros" as a possible indicator of "Blacks", due to the subjective nature of interpretations of ancient wall-paintings of this kind, but...

A physical anthropological indicator:

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....". - Angel


A genetic indicator:

...the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78 within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East. These data are hard to reconcile with the hypothesis of a uniform spread of a single Near Eastern gene pool into southeastern Europe. On the other hand, they might be consistent with either a small-scale leapfrog migration from Anatolia into southeastern Europe at the beginning of the Neolithic or with an expansion of indigenous people in southeastern Europe in response to the arrival of the Neolithic cultural package. At the present level of phylogenetic resolution, it is difficult to distinguish between these possibilities. - Cruciani et al.

Places in southeast Europe have E3b alpha derivatives, because these were radiated from the Asian Minor, while other E3b derivatives, including the delta derivative, in Europe may have arrived via North African contact with Iberia, NorthEast African contacts, as well as the "Near East" [who in turn, inherited them from NorthEast Africans] over the ages.

Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Greeks are the ones with African ancestry but not Turks.

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This is not correct. Not to feed into Mr. Winters' putting some emphasis on the so-called "Afros" as a possible indicator of "Blacks", due to the subjective nature of interpretations of ancient wall-paintings of this kind, but...

A physical anthropological indicator:

"Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction of body size one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians....". - Angel


A genetic indicator:

...the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78 within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East. These data are hard to reconcile with the hypothesis of a uniform spread of a single Near Eastern gene pool into southeastern Europe. On the other hand, they might be consistent with either a small-scale leapfrog migration from Anatolia into southeastern Europe at the beginning of the Neolithic or with an expansion of indigenous people in southeastern Europe in response to the arrival of the Neolithic cultural package. At the present level of phylogenetic resolution, it is difficult to distinguish between these possibilities. - Cruciani et al.

Places in southeast Europe have E3b alpha derivatives, because these were radiated from the Asian Minor, while other E3b derivatives, including the delta derivative, in Europe may have arrived via North African contact with Iberia, NorthEast African contacts, as well as the "Near East" [who in turn, inherited them from NorthEast Africans] over the ages.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Pelasgian is the name for the ancient inhabitants of Greece.

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Isn't the Afro a characteristic of the African population.

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The hair styles match the hair styles of the men from Thera.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
I agree these findings Supercar, but I think it more than presumptious to call the Pelasgians black and say they originated from Africa.

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Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar:
Can something be done about the width of the screen...perhaps post
large images as links, or get rid of whatever writing method is causing
this?

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar:

The idea was to make you see the specific point you agree with, which contrasts with your earlier statement. As for the latter (highlighted), it wasn't my claim to begin with, and so, I can't speak for it.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

What I meant by my earlier statement is that it's an error to call Pelasgians black Africans and associate all peoples of Asia Minor as being black.

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Djehuti:

There is no denying the association between recent African ancestry and the spread of the Neolithic, but the Pelasgians came after the Neolithic and during the beginning of the Bronze Age.

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I'll just repeat what I said on this issue:

it wasn't my claim to begin with, and so, I can't speak for it.

...I hope this takes care of where I stand in these discussions.

Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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The Minoans were not Greeks, and their language, religion, and social structures were not Greek. Most of what is known or can be guessed about the Minoans comes from modern Archaeology on Crete. (The little island of Thera also has yielded an important Minoan site.) Evidence suggests that the Minoans emerged from a fusion between existing Cretan inhabitants and invaders from Asia Minor during the era 2900–2200 BCE. These people became master seafarers and built a society inspired partly by contact with the Egyptian Old Kingdom (ca. 2650–2250 BCE). By about 1900 BCE the Minoans were acquiring an Aegean Sea empire and were constructing palaces on Crete—at Cnossus, Phaestus, Mallia, and Khania—that were bigger and more elaborate than any buildings outside the Near East. So confident were the Minoans in their naval power that they declined to encircle their palaces with defensive walls.

Wealth came from Cretan farming and fishing, from taxes paid by subject peoples in the Cyclades and other Aegean locales, and from long-distance trade. Minoan objects discovered by archaeologists outside Crete indicate two-way commerce with Egypt, Asia Minor, and the Levant as well as with western Italy (a region that offered raw tin and copper, the components of Bronze). But much Minoan trade, especially after 1600 BCE, was with the northwestern Aegean mainland now called Greece, where Greek-speaking tribes had been settling since about 2100 BCE.

The Minoans' importance for Greek history is that they supplied the model for the Greeks' Mycenaean Civilization, which arose on the mainland ca. 1600 BCE. The Mycenaean fortress palaces at Mycenae, Tiryns, and elsewhere were warlike imitations of Minoan palaces on Crete. Mycenaean skills in metalworking, Pottery-making, and other handicrafts were improved by copying Cretan models. The Mycenaean form of writing—a syllabary script that modern scholars call Linear B, invented soon before 1400 BCE—was copied from the Minoan system (a yet-undeciphered script called Linear A). Eventually the Mycenaeans were ready to challenge Minoan supremacy in the Aegean.

Daily scenes of the Minoans' life are preserved on some of their beautiful art objects, which include cut gems, worked Gold, terra-cotta figurines, vase paintings, and frescoes. Sensuous and modern-seeming in design, Minoan pictorial art favors sea animals and other subjects from nature. Religious scenes often show a goddess (or priestess) with a subordinate male figure or with wild beasts, such as lions, in tame postures. Evidence of this kind leads many scholars to conclude that Minoan religion was centered on a mother goddess or a group of goddesses overseeing nature and bounty. Aspects of Minoan worship apparently infiltrated Greek religion in the cult of certain goddesses, such as Artemis and Hera.

The Minoans ascribed religious or magical power to dancing and to the remarkable athletic performance now known as bull leaping. Minoan reverence for the bull is probably reflected in Greek Myths of later days, such as the interrelated tales of Minos and of Theseus and the Minotaur, or the tale of Heracles and the Cretan bull.

Minoan high society probably revolved around a priest-king or priest-queen whose capital city was Cnossus and whose royal emblem was the labrus, a double-headed ax. Scenes in art suggest a confident, vivacious life at court. Upper-class Women—portrayed as wearing flounced skirts and open-breasted tunics—apparently played prominent roles in court life (as opposed to the secluded existence of women in Greece in later centuries).

The material level enjoyed by the Minoan ruling class was probably unsurpassed anywhere before the late 19th century CE. The Cnossus palace, reaching three stories in parts, boasted clay-piped plumbing and a clever system of air wells to bring light and ventilation to interior rooms. Coinage had not yet been invented, but Minoan wealth was measured in luxury items and in farm surplus such as sheep, pigs, and olive oil (great quantities of which were stored at Cnossus).

The Minoan golden age on Crete, ca. 1900–1450 BCE, was a time of peace but was troubled by natural disasters. Archaeology at Cnossus shows that the palace was destroyed twice by earthquake, ca. 1730 and 1570 BCE. Circa 1480 BCE Cretan coastal regions suffered damage and depopulation, possibly caused by tidal waves from the volcanic explosion of Thera, 70 miles away.

The Cnossus palace, on high ground, survived, but new archaeological signs of distress in the mid-1400s BCE include proliferation of war equipment and the first appearance on Crete of the horse (presumably imported as a tool of war). Overseas, Minoan pottery from this time is absent from certain sites—a sign of disrupted trade routes. Presumably a foreign enemy or number of enemies, taking advantage of Cretan natural disaster, had begun to cut into the Minoan Empire. These enemies surely included groups of Mycenaean Greeks.

In about 1400 BCE or soon after, all the Cretan palaces were destroyed by fire, presumably in war. The most obvious explanation for this simultaneous destruction is a Mycenaean invasion of Crete. Intriguingly, archaeological evidence suggests that, prior to this invasion, Mycenaean Greeks had already taken over the Cnossus palace and that it was they who were destroyed in the palace's ruin. There may have been rival Mycenaean armies, battling each other for control of Crete.

Although the Mycenaean victors seem to have abandoned Crete soon after 1400 BCE, the Minoan culture was finished.







Mycenaean is the term used by modern scholars to describe the earliest flowering of mainland Greek culture, ca. 1600–1200 BCE. The Mycenaeans were Greeks whose warlike society rose and fell long before the era of classical Greece. The classical Greeks of ca. 400 BCE half remembered their Mycenaean forebears as a race of heroes, celebrated in Myth and Epic Poetry.

In world prehistory, the Mycenaeans comprised the last of several great civilizations to emerge in the eastern Mediterranean during the Bronze age. The Mycenaeans' urban building, military organization, and Trade seem to have been partly copied from a few preexisting, non-Greek, Bronze Age cultures—namely, the Middle and New Kingdoms of Egypt, the Hittite kingdom of Asia Minor, and especially, the Minoan Civilization of Crete.

The Mycenaeans lived before the era of history-writing, and thus most details of their story—such as their rulers' names or the reasons why their entire society collapsed in fiery ruin around 1200 BCE—remain unknown. Modern knowledge relies mostly on artifacts uncovered by Archaeology at a few sites, such as Mycenae, Tiryns, and Pylos (in the Peloponnese) and Thebes, Orchomenus, and Athens (in central Greece). The artifacts include Pottery, stone carvings, jewelry, and armor—most of it found in the tombs of rulers—as well as the remnants of Mycenaean stone palaces and defenses. Particularly, the sites of Mycenae and Tiryns still show huge fortifications built by Mycenaean inhabitants in the 1300s and 1200s BCE

In addition, a few sites have yielded primitive Mycenaean written records, inscribed on clay tablets that seem to date from about 1400 BCE or 1200 BCE, depending on the site. Written in a script that modern scholars call Linear B, the records have been deciphered mainly as lists of inventory—produce, livestock, military equipment—and accounts of goods-distribution, religious rites, and similar daily events. The tablets provide precious information on the social structure, economy, and Religion of the Mycenaeans, as well as on the early-stage Greek Language that they spoke.

Aside from archaeology, some insight into the Mycenaeans has been gained from a cautious reading of Homer's epic poems, the Illiad and Odyssey. Although written ca. 750 BCE, more than 400 years after the Mycenaeans' disappearance, these poems derive from oral tradition that stretches back to the Mycenaeans. It is believed that the poems faithfully record certain aspects of Mycenaean upper-class life—such as the warrior code and the network of local kings—amid distortions and overlays.

The first Greek-speaking tribes arrived in mainland Greece ca. 2100 BCE, from the Danube region. But 500 years went by before the emergence of the culture that we call Mycenaean: The remarkable social and technological changes of these intervening centuries can only be guessed at. No doubt the Greeks were deeply influenced by the non-Greek people they had conquered, and from them the Greeks probably learned skills such as stone masonry, shipbuilding, navigation, the cultivation of the olive and certain other crops, and the worship of certain female deities (with associated, new spiritual concepts). Similarly, the Greeks were inspired by the palace society of Minoan Crete.

The Mycenaean era began around 1600 BCE, as archaeology reveals. Several sites in Greece came under control of powerful rulers who were buried in elaborate tombs, unlike the simple graves of prior centuries. And within a few generations the tomb designs altered again, suggesting further dynastic changes and evolving organization. The six treasure-filled tombs at Mycenae known as Grave Circle A—built in the era 1550–1500 BCE and discovered intact by Schliemann—provide clear proof of the rulers' wealth and overseas contacts. For example, the tombs contain items of Gold that were shaped by Greek smiths, but the raw metal probably came from Asia Minor or Egypt. The warlike nature of these leaders is suggested by the many weapons left as offerings in the tombs.

In Greece's terrain, where mountain ranges separate the flatlands, the Mycenaeans apparently emerged as four or so major kingdoms, each based at a large farming plain. Two of these domains were in the Peloponnese: the plain of Argos (with its capital at Mycenae) and the plain of Messenia (capital at Pylos). One was in central Greece: the plain of Boeotia (with the cities Thebes and Orchomenus vying for supremacy). And one was in the north, on the great plain of Thessaly (capital at Iolcus). Lesser kingdoms probably existed as well. But the greatest domain was Mycenae, as indicated by its signs of superior wealth and by the testimony of Greek myth. In Homer's Illiad, the Mycenaean king Agamemnon is the supreme commander, to whom all other kings, such as Odysseus and Nestor, owe obedience.

One event of the Mycenaean era that modern scholars are sure of is that by around 1450 BCE Mycenaeans had taken over the Cretan palace at Cnossus—probably as the result of a Mycenaean naval invasion of Crete. Mysteriously, the Mycenaeans seem to have abandoned Crete soon thereafter, ca. 1400 BCE But the years of occupation there taught Mycenaean rulers certain organizational skills—such as improved architectural techniques and the use of Cretan Writing (adapted at this time, as the Linear B script)—that ushered in 200 years of the Mycenaean heyday in mainland Greece, ca. 1400–1200 BCE

It was now that the Mycenaeans built their own palaces, adapted from the Minoan palaces on Crete. Mycenae and Tiryns were turned into elaborate, high-walled castles; other palaces, such as at Pylos, arose without huge defenses. The social and economic structure of these centers is partly revealed by the Linear B tablets. The palace was the seat of the king (wanax in Mycenaean Greek); beyond the capital city, a network of outlying villages paid taxes, obeyed the king's laws, and relied on him for defense against other rulers. Tha palace was also a center of industry, where metalworkers, weavers, perfumers, and many other crafts people turned out finished goods, to enrich the king or to be distributed by him. Raw materials came from local taxes (sheep's wool, for example) and from overseas trade.

The premier metal for war and industry was Bronze (the use of Iron being introduced to the Greek world only later). The search for bronze's two components—copper and tin—led Mycenaean sea traders far and wide. Large remains of Mycenaean pottery in Cyprus show that parts of that copper-rich island were colonized by Mycenaeans. On the western Asia Minor coast, the site of Miletus probably became a Mycenaean trading colony, mainly for the acquisition of raw metals. Toward the other end of the Mediterranean, extant pottery suggests a Mycenaean presence in western Italy, where tin could be found.

The Mycenaean rulers commanded armies of heavy infantry. The soldiers' standardized equipment, including bronze breastplates and helmets, is recorded on Linear B tablets. Various evidence paints a picture of Mycenaean kings or princes leading Viking-like raids overseas, of which the biggest were the (presumed) invasions of Crete and Cyprus. On certain Linear B tablets, Slaves are mentioned by names that suggest they came from Asia Minor; probably they were captured in Mycenaean raids there. The Greek myth of Jason (1) and the Argonauts may distortedly commemorate such an overseas expedition. But the Mycenaean kingdoms fought also against each other: the legend of the Seven Against Thebes seems clearly based on actual warfare between Mycenae and Thebes.

By about 1250 BCE the Mycenaean world had come under pressure, due partly to upheavals in the Near East. The decline of the Hittite kingdom in Asia Minor probably brought a gradual closing of the Mycenaeans' eastern trade routes. Deprived of raw metals for industry and conquest, Mycenaean society began to whither. The Greek legend of the Trojan War may recall the Mycenaeans' attempt to keep trade routes open by removing the interfering, non-Greek, Hellespontine city Troy, ca. 1220 BCE

Finally, it seems, the Mycenaean kingdoms turned against each other and destroyed each other, in a desperate bid for survival. Archaeology clearly reveals the fiery ruin of Thebes, Mycenae, and other centers in the 50 years leading down to 1200 BCE At Pylos, the final days are dramatically indicated in emergency troop movements and religious sacrifices recorded on Linear B tablets.

Modern historians used to believe that this wholesale destruction was the work of outsiders—specifically, Dorian Greeks invading from the northwest. But more recent scholarship concludes that the Dorian invasion, ca. 1100 BCE, was merely opportunistic: The Mycenaeans had already exhausted themselves through internal war.

In the villages outside of the wrecked palaces, Mycenaean society survived on an improverished scale during the 1100s BCE Social change in these rural areas can be glimpsed in the development of a certain Greek word: The official title quasireu, which during the Mycenaean heyday had indicated a local sheriff (a relatively low position), gradually changed to basileus and took on a new meaning, "king." These men became the new local rulers within the disintegrated Mycenaean kingdoms.


David Sacks
Ancient Greece: Minoan civilization. Encyclopedia of the Ancient Greek World.
New York: Facts On File, Inc., 1995

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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The three main subclades of haplogroup E3b (E-M78, E-M81,
and E-M34) and the paragroup E-M35* are not homogeneously
distributed on the African continent:
* E-M78 has been observed in both northern and eastern Africa,
* E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa,
* E-M34 is common only in eastern Africa, and
* E-M35* is shared by eastern and southern Africans
(Cruciani et al. 2002).

. . . .

Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland
for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had
(1) the highest number of different E3b clades,
(2) a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity,
(3) the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup.

. . . .

Haplogroup E-M78 was observed over a wide area, including
* eastern (21.5%) and
* northern (18.5%) Africa,
* Near East (5.8%),
* Europe (7.2%), where it represents by far the most common E3b subhaplogroup.

. . . .

The network of the E-M78 chromosomes reveals a strong geographic
structuring, since each of the clusters a, b, and g reaches high
frequencies in only one of the regions analyzed. Cluster a ...
is very common in the Balkans (with frequencies of 20%–32%),
and its frequencies decline toward western Europe,
7.4% in Sicily,
7.0% in continental Italy,
4.3% in Corsica,
3.0% in France,
2.2% in Iberia and
1.1% in Sardinia,
and northeastern (2.6%) Europe.
In the Near East, this cluster is essentially limited to Turkey (3.4%).
The relatively high frequency of DYS413 24/23 haplogroup E chromosomes
in Greece suggests that cluster a of the E-M78 haplogroup is common in
the Aegean area, too.

. . . .

... later (and previously undetected) demographic population expansions involving
* clusters a in Europe (TMRCA 7.8 ky; 95% CI 6.3–9.2 ky),
* b in northwestern Africa (5.2 ky; 95% CI 3.2–7.5 ky), and
* g in eastern Africa (9.6 ky; 95% CI 7.2–12.9 ky) should be considered the main
contributors to the relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-M78 in the surveyed
area.

The present distributions of these clusters also suggest episodes of
range expansions. ...the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78a
within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic
or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest
frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west
and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that,
in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78, the
most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly ... consistent with
either a smallscale leapfrog migration from Anatolia into southeastern
Europe at the beginning of the Neolithic or with an expansion of indigenous
people in southeastern Europe in response to the arrival of the Neolithic
cultural package. At the present level of phylogenetic resolution, it is
difficult to distinguish between these possibilities.

. . . .

In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes
of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of
haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78d
chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the
introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later
events involved shortrange migrations within Africa (E-M78g and E-V6) and
from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78b), as well as an important
range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe
(E-M78alpha). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present
distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.


Fulvio Cruciani, et al
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes
Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:1014–1022, 2004

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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The alpha cluster of the E3b-M78, a European development of a gene originating in "black" Africa shows dispersion in the area delimitted by Winchell's "Pelasgian Empire" (pre-Indo European
north Mediterranean, Balkans, and west Anatolia)

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Supercar:

Places in southeast Europe have E3b alpha derivatives, because these were radiated from the Asian Minor, while other E3b derivatives, including the delta derivative, in Europe may have arrived via North African contact with Iberia, NorthEast African contacts, as well as the "Near East" [who in turn, inherited them from NorthEast Africans] over the ages.

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Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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alTakruri says:
The Minoans (Thera, Crete, etc.) weren't Pelasgian (pre-Hellene Greeks).

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The alpha cluster of the E3b-M78, a European development of a
gene originating in "black" Africa shows dispersion in the area
delimitted by Winchell's "Pelasgian Empire" (pre-Indo European
north Mediterranean, Balkans, and west Anatolia), substantiates
a "black" African component in their overall makeup possibly
explaining occasional occurences of inner African phenotypical
elements displayed by some of them...

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..Ancient mythographers
unaware of the science could have incorporated this presence in
epics of migration using eponymous ancestors like Cadmus, Danaos,
and others, -- even more so in the indigenous Inachus, Phoroneus,
Io, Epaphos, and Pelasgus himself -- though the protohistorical
evidence of contacts with the Levant and northern Africa cannot
be ruled out.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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The Minoans were not Greeks, and their language, religion, and social structures were not Greek. Most of what is known or can be guessed about the Minoans comes from modern Archaeology on Crete. (The little island of Thera also has yielded an important Minoan site.) Evidence suggests that the Minoans emerged from a fusion between existing Cretan inhabitants and invaders from Asia Minor during the era 2900–2200 BCE. These people became master seafarers and built a society inspired partly by contact with the Egyptian Old Kingdom (ca. 2650–2250 BCE). By about 1900 BCE the Minoans were acquiring an Aegean Sea empire and were constructing palaces on Crete—at Cnossus, Phaestus, Mallia, and Khania—that were bigger and more elaborate than any buildings outside the Near East. So confident were the Minoans in their naval power that they declined to encircle their palaces with defensive walls.

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Wealth came from Cretan farming and fishing, from taxes paid by subject peoples in the Cyclades and other Aegean locales, and from long-distance trade. Minoan objects discovered by archaeologists outside Crete indicate two-way commerce with Egypt, Asia Minor, and the Levant as well as with western Italy (a region that offered raw tin and copper, the components of Bronze). But much Minoan trade, especially after 1600 BCE, was with the northwestern Aegean mainland now called Greece, where Greek-speaking tribes had been settling since about 2100 BCE.

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The Minoans' importance for Greek history is that they supplied the model for the Greeks' Mycenaean Civilization, which arose on the mainland ca. 1600 BCE. The Mycenaean fortress palaces at Mycenae, Tiryns, and elsewhere were warlike imitations of Minoan palaces on Crete. Mycenaean skills in metalworking, Pottery-making, and other handicrafts were improved by copying Cretan models. The Mycenaean form of writing—a syllabary script that modern scholars call Linear B, invented soon before 1400 BCE—was copied from the Minoan system (a yet-undeciphered script called Linear A). Eventually the Mycenaeans were ready to challenge Minoan supremacy in the Aegean.

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The Minoans' importance for Greek history is that they supplied the model for the Greeks' Mycenaean Civilization, which arose on the mainland ca. 1600 BCE. The Mycenaean fortress palaces at Mycenae, Tiryns, and elsewhere were warlike imitations of Minoan palaces on Crete. Mycenaean skills in metalworking, Pottery-making, and other handicrafts were improved by copying Cretan models. The Mycenaean form of writing—a syllabary script that modern scholars call Linear B, invented soon before 1400 BCE—was copied from the Minoan system (a yet-undeciphered script called Linear A). Eventually the Mycenaeans were ready to challenge Minoan supremacy in the Aegean.

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The Minoans ascribed religious or magical power to dancing and to the remarkable athletic performance now known as bull leaping. Minoan reverence for the bull is probably reflected in Greek Myths of later days, such as the interrelated tales of Minos and of Theseus and the Minotaur, or the tale of Heracles and the Cretan bull.

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Minoan high society probably revolved around a priest-king or priest-queen whose capital city was Cnossus and whose royal emblem was the labrus, a double-headed ax. Scenes in art suggest a confident, vivacious life at court. Upper-class Women—portrayed as wearing flounced skirts and open-breasted tunics—apparently played prominent roles in court life (as opposed to the secluded existence of women in Greece in later centuries).

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The Minoan golden age on Crete, ca. 1900–1450 BCE, was a time of peace but was troubled by natural disasters. Archaeology at Cnossus shows that the palace was destroyed twice by earthquake, ca. 1730 and 1570 BCE. Circa 1480 BCE Cretan coastal regions suffered damage and depopulation, possibly caused by tidal waves from the volcanic explosion of Thera, 70 miles away.

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The Cnossus palace, on high ground, survived, but new archaeological signs of distress in the mid-1400s BCE include proliferation of war equipment and the first appearance on Crete of the horse (presumably imported as a tool of war). Overseas, Minoan pottery from this time is absent from certain sites—a sign of disrupted trade routes. Presumably a foreign enemy or number of enemies, taking advantage of Cretan natural disaster, had begun to cut into the Minoan Empire. These enemies surely included groups of Mycenaean Greeks.

In about 1400 BCE or soon after, all the Cretan palaces were destroyed by fire, presumably in war. The most obvious explanation for this simultaneous destruction is a Mycenaean invasion of Crete. Intriguingly, archaeological evidence suggests that, prior to this invasion, Mycenaean Greeks had already taken over the Cnossus palace and that it was they who were destroyed in the palace's ruin. There may have been rival Mycenaean armies, battling each other for control of Crete.

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Aside from archaeology, some insight into the Mycenaeans has been gained from a cautious reading of Homer's epic poems, the Illiad and Odyssey. Although written ca. 750 BCE, more than 400 years after the Mycenaeans' disappearance, these poems derive from oral tradition that stretches back to the Mycenaeans. It is believed that the poems faithfully record certain aspects of Mycenaean upper-class life—such as the warrior code and the network of local kings—amid distortions and overlays.

The first Greek-speaking tribes arrived in mainland Greece ca. 2100 BCE, from the Danube region. But 500 years went by before the emergence of the culture that we call Mycenaean: The remarkable social and technological changes of these intervening centuries can only be guessed at. No doubt the Greeks were deeply influenced by the non-Greek people they had conquered, and from them the Greeks probably learned skills such as stone masonry, shipbuilding, navigation, the cultivation of the olive and certain other crops, and the worship of certain female deities (with associated, new spiritual concepts). Similarly, the Greeks were inspired by the palace society of Minoan Crete.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Supercar:

Now of course it goes without saying, the precursors of Greek culture in the region, i.e., that of the Minoans, essentially dates back to post Neolithic, with occupation of the Aegean sea island dating back to about 3000 B.C., while visible evidence of high urbanization (aka cities) here dates back to about 2000 B.C. or so. These folks maintained contact with both southwest Asia and the Nile Valley, speaking of which...

"Recent excavations at Avaris (modern Tell ed-Daba'a), have even revealed remains of a palace decorated in the style of those on Crete! This has suggested to the excavator, Dr. Manfred Bietak of the University of Vienna, the strong presence there of Minoan (Cretan) royalty. This palace appears to date to the period soon after the Egyptian king Ahmose drove the Hyksos into Palestine about 1550 BC. It is thought possibly to have belonged to a Minoan princess sent to marry the Egyptian king. Obviously she and her servants from Crete would have been very light-skinned. On the other hand, there were also certainly black-skinned people in the Delta at the same time. Nubian pottery has been found in one area of Tell ed-Daba'a, which strongly suggests that Nubian troops were also living there in large numbers.

Black people were probably also living on Crete and mainland Greece at the same time, for at Pylos in Greece black-skinned warriors wearing contemporary Cretan and Mycenaean Greek armor are depicted in the palace frescoes, suggesting that African troops were being used not only by the Egyptian king but also by his European counterparts across the sea." - nubianet.org

...does anyone have imagery on the depictions in question?

Archeological indicators thus far seem to suggest that Minoans weren't as militaristic as the Myceneans, the inheritors of Minoan cultural elements.

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Whoever wrote that never saw this:

Amazing how those who insist African doesn't mean black don't insist
that European doesn't mean white. We don't know the complexion of the
Minoan princess who married an Egyptian king. The likelihood is that she
was pallid, however it's possible she was as dark as any of the Minoan
ladies on the left of above freso.

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[A palace excavated at Avaris decorated in the style of those on Crete] is thought possibly to have belonged to a Minoan princess sent to marry the Egyptian king. Obviously she and her servants from Crete would have been very light-skinned.

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
What difference does it make what color she was?

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


They were called Garamante people. These Blacks came from the Fezzan.

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Some of the first African colonists to arrive in Greece came from Crete. These Cretans were called Garamantes. After the goddess Ker or Car, these people also came to be also known as the Carians. The Carians spoke a Mande languages.

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LOL Wrong Professor Winters. The Carians were not Africans but were from Asia Minor. And their language was NOT African, let alone have any relation to the Mande languages of West Africa! Then again you claim a Mande connection to Japanese!

Speaking of 'professors', perhaps now this board will now be balanced-- having a Eurocentric nut in one end and an Afrocentric nut on the other!

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
are we saying Seti was a Minoan?

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Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Supercar:

"...Black people were probably also living on Crete and mainland Greece at the same time, for at Pylos in Greece black-skinned warriors wearing contemporary Cretan and Mycenaean Greek armor are depicted in the palace frescoes, suggesting that African troops were being used not only by the Egyptian king but also by his European counterparts across the sea." - nubianet.org

...does anyone have imagery on the depictions in question?

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Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged |